Sonya’s journal

Vineeto: This “feeling ‘connected’” can have different flavours, and only what prevents you from enjoying and appreciating at this moment needs to be looked at this moment. If relying on Kuba makes you insecure then you already know how you can do something about it.

Sonya: Yes, I think this is the nurture aspect coming in for me. I still feel nurturing to Kuba, if he is happy then I am happy, if he is upset, I’ll be upset (luckily he is very rarely upset nowadays ) and I tend to lean more towards doing things that make him happy first. Of course, I enjoy cooking/ baking foods that he likes or giving him a pedicure/ manicure and that doesn’t have to stop but it’s the feeling of nurturing him that’s the issue. Haha I see it a bit more now, it’s very one-sided. On my side, im playing the nurturing game, ‘taking care’ of him etc. On his side he’s just enjoying some warm brownies and nice cuticles . And I am holding on to this feeling of connection and being connected so I can still play the nurture game!

Hi Sonya,

Ah, ‘Vineeto’ spoke about her concerns regards nurture in the Out-from-Control video.

You can check out other aspects of nurture yourself (apart from fellowship regard). For instance, what agenda do ‘you’ have to nurture him above and beyond fellowship regard? What benefit do you gain from “feeling connected” so much so that you are willing to worry about it/about him and are only happy when he is happy? Remember, it’s often the ‘good’ feelings which keep the equivalent ‘bad’ feelings in place.

It’s certainly worth looking into it because it prevents you from unconditionally enjoying this moment of being alive or appreciating both yourself and him as two autonomous human beings getting on well with each other.

Vineeto: For someone who says she feels “a little lonely” for “not believing in love” you are quite eloquent in how many benefits the alternative way of relating has. Who knows, you might even infect others with stories of making a success of your partnership.

Sonya: I think it’s more in relation with other women and leaving the sisterhood behind, I sometimes feel like my friends are speaking a different language and I sometimes feel sad or awkward I can’t join in on the conversation. There’s a fear that I won’t be fun or interesting anymore. That now with love largely out the picture there is less drama in my life. I can’t complain or get angry alongside them. How odd that despite all the good things that have come out of not prioritising love I am still sad to leave it behind and not participate in the dramas that come with it. (link)

Mmh, the need to belong has a strong pull. The courage to live according to your own convictions – especially when they are informed by the sincere intent to be happy and harmless – will come when you take the first (or next) step in that direction, and with every step you take the required daring is sourced in the thrilling/ exciting part of fear and readily available when the situation calls for it.

After feeling being ‘Vineeto’ started with actualism and knew with certainty that this is the direction ‘she’ wanted to go in life, it soon became quite obvious to ‘her’ that ‘she’ had no longer much in common with previous friends and acquaintances. They preferred goals ‘she’ no longer shared – and to follow ‘her’ own chosen path was more important than accommodating friendship or acquaintances which weren’t satisfactory. ‘She’ also found that most would revel in exchanging various resentments and complaints and looking for sympathy for their grievances. It wasn’t fun.

So, since you already found out for yourself, by experience, that a love relationship is inferior to a partnership based on appreciation and enjoyment, why would you want to pretend it is otherwise just to belong to a group of women with whom you have nothing in common with?

Cheers Vineeto

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Scout: I remember reading this part of your writings with great fascination, thank you for sharing it again!

Vineeto: According to this dream Peter should be the answer to the question which I wasn’t willing to face myself: ‘What do I really want to do with my life?’

Scout: This is the crux of it, perfectly distilled. I want someone else to figure out how to make me happy. I’ve tried so many different things but I always struggle and they always fail eventually and I feel dissatisfied, and I soothe this dissatisfaction with the fantasy that the right person will solve this problem for me, rather than me figuring out how to be my own fount of happiness. (link)

Hi Scout,

You are very welcome.

Ha, I can relate to that. ‘Vineeto’ in her twenties was looking for someone who had all the answers to life and would tell ‘her’ what to do – ‘she’ ended up in a spiritual commune with an enlightened master, and not until the master died, one-and-a-half decades later, did ‘she’ finally extract ‘her’ head from out-of-the-clouds, and look around if the aims and the results were really what ‘she’ wanted from life.

You can solve this question much quicker, now that there is a third alternative to materialism and spiritualism available, and genuinely inquire in yourself if this is a way of life and an ultimate goal (actual, not imagined, purity and perfection) that you can whole-heartedly devote your life to.

It is a wonderful, exciting and rewarding enterprise to do that.

Cheers Vineeto

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Honestly this discussion is very pertinent to my current experience, because my current relationship is starting to give me a sour taste in my mouth about the whole love thing. We’ve had persistent sexual issues due to a medical condition - this has always compromised the potential of our long-term partnership. I fell a little bit in love in the beginning but the physical disconnect led to me falling out of love, but I still deeply appreciate and care for the person he is so we’ve continued to try.

However, he fell deeply in love. Now it’s been a year and a half, and the sexual issues are becoming untenable for me. When we talked today about the potential of breaking up though, he talks as if he would need to purge me from his life completely. This seems so silly to me because there is so much about how we interact that is pure and creative and delightful, and none of that needs to hinge on us having a sexual, monogamous dynamic. But being in love has turned this into a painful, all-or-nothing possessive relationship in his experience.

It makes me sad to think I might lose the company of someone I get along with so well because of this. The alleged intimacy of romantic love seems to be highly conditional. It’s funny because I was always worried that he “loved” me more because he was so doting towards me due to being in love with me, while I remained pretty independent. But now that the security of the relationship is compromised, it almost seems like the more grounded, less attached affection I’ve felt for him is actually purer and deeper than what he has been feeling for me, because it’s not conditional and doesn’t demand that he be anything to maintain it.

Was intended as a response to you here, I suck at this website. Sorry for the thread hijack @Sonyaxx but thanks for giving me a lot to think about

Hijack away :blush:

Scout: Honestly this discussion is very pertinent to my current experience, because my current relationship is starting to give me a sour taste in my mouth about the whole love thing. We’ve had persistent sexual issues due to a medical condition – this has always compromised the potential of our long-term partnership. I fell a little bit in love in the beginning but the physical disconnect led to me falling out of love, but I still deeply appreciate and care for the person he is so we’ve continued to try.
However, he fell deeply in love. Now it’s been a year and a half, and the sexual issues are becoming untenable for me. When we talked today about the potential of breaking up though, he talks as if he would need to purge me from his life completely. This seems so silly to me because there is so much about how we interact that is pure and creative and delightful, and none of that needs to hinge on us having a sexual, monogamous dynamic. But being in love has turned this into a painful, all-or-nothing possessive relationship in his experience.

Hi Scout,

I found a wonderful and in-depth compilation from Richard about love and its detrimental implications –

James: My partnership with [name deleted] is going fantastic. We met at a cabin in the Ozarks for a week and it couldn’t have been better. We planned to enjoy and appreciate and have fun and if any issues come up to speak them out and investigate them. However, no issues to speak of came up. (…)
RICHARD: G’day James,
This is quite an apt place to refer you to the last paragraph of my June 21st email to Alan on this very topic.
Viz.:
• [Richard]: “(…) I well recall the period when feeling-being ‘Peter’ first began putting what he was then reading in ‘The Actualism Journal’ into practice with a newly-found female companion – which ‘he’ wrote about in ‘Peter’s Journal’ – as it soon became obvious to both Grace and myself that the first flush of male-female attraction was self-evidently having ‘him’ under the impression that the sublime oneness-intimacy ‘he’ was experiencing (as in an ASC) was an actual intimacy (as in a PCE) and so we bided our time, until that (affectively-induced) ‘chemistry’ began to wear off and ‘he’ came to ‘his’ senses of ‘his’ own accord, as the heightened rush of blind-nature’s mating passions are too powerful a force to be reckoned with. (Richard, List D, Alan, 21 Jun 2015)
Not only did feeling-being ‘Peter’ write about being in love, in ‘Peter’s Journal’, feeling-being ‘Vineeto’ did as well (in a chapter entitled “A Bit of Vineeto”). At the following URL ‘she’ quotes from both chapters: (Vineeto, AF List, No. 23b, 13.3.2004)
The relevant portions of what feeling-being ‘Peter’ wrote, in ‘Peter’s Journal’, are available online in “Peter’s Selected Writing”.
Viz.:
• [Peter]: “(…). Over the next few days something continued to nag me. Why was it that this relationship seemed to be going off the rails? Why, increasingly, were there misunderstandings, petty conflicts and difficulties between us? Why was I becoming more and more obsessed about what Vineeto was doing when we weren’t together, and what she was thinking about when we were together? Over the next days I contemplated on what was wrong and suddenly it dawned on me that, despite our matter-of-fact contract and investigations, we had fallen in love! We were both exhibiting the classic symptoms, emotions and feelings associated with being in love. I was battling her and trying to force my opinions on her. I realized that I had been jealous, possessive, pushy, demanding and obsessive with her. And, most appallingly, I saw how when the impossible demands of love are not fulfilled then it can all so quickly turn to disappointment, resentment, withdrawal, spite and eventually hate. It had got to the stage where it was obvious to me that, unless something changed, this relationship was heading exactly the same way as all my previous ones – doomed to failure …”. [emphases added]. (Peter, Selected Writings. Love, #4).
And again:
• [Peter]: “(…). What happened in the ensuing week was quite remarkable. I found that the strength of my intention for peace and harmony made me able to completely drop this destructive behaviour. Somehow I knew this was the only course of action I could take to make this relationship work and I knew it was my last chance. The realizing and facing of the facts, coupled with a clear intent, left ‘me’ with no choice. It wasn’t that ‘I’ made a decision – there was actually no decision to make. Action happened by itself, exactly as it would in swerving to avoid hitting another car while driving. (…).A week later, we both realized the full extent of the dramatic change that had occurred. A certain excitement seemed to be missing, a passion and a bond in our lives. It was quite tangible, and a sense of loss overwhelmed us. It was apparent I had fallen in love about three weeks after we met and had been in love for about six weeks until I had called a halt to the battle. I hadn’t recognized at the time that this behaviour of mine was really love in operation; I only saw it in the end as an emotional turmoil that was destroying my enjoyment of being with Vineeto. So, what we had seen was love in operation – a practical demonstration in our lives, not just a theoretical concept. As we sat down to talk about what had happened we both had tears in our eyes …”. [emphases added]. (Peter, Selected Writings. Love, #5)
The relevant portions of what feeling-being ‘Vineeto’ wrote, in the chapter entitled “A Bit of Vineeto”, are also available online.
Viz.:
• [Vineeto]: “(…). One thing that I particularly didn’t like about falling in love was the pining. Whenever I was not with Peter I felt I was tied to him on a long elastic cord and not able to fully enjoy whatever I was doing by myself. Digging into what could be the reason for my pining, I discovered what I call the ‘Cinderella-syndrome’ – the romantic dream that most women have about the perfect and noble man. We are not only looking for someone who takes care of us when our own strength fails us, but also for someone who gives perspective, meaning, definition and identity to our lives, be it as father of our kids, provider of social status, security or a purpose for life. According to this dream Peter should be the answer to the question which I wasn’t willing to face myself: ‘What do I really want to do with my life?’ I remember a Monday evening after a weekend together, and I had been pining the whole day. I had not enjoyed work as I found myself struggling to get out of this exhausting dependency. Here I was, 44 years old and as silly as a teenager! After work I took a long walk across rolling hills into a spectacular sunset, trying to work out what I wanted to do with my life. (…). That very evening the situation changed. My pining stopped. The fog in the head cleared. My expectations disappeared. I could again stand on my own feet and equally enjoy the time when I was by myself. I had recovered my autonomy – my autonomy in the sense that I am the only one in my life who is responsible for my happiness”. [emphases added]. (Vineeto, A Bit of Vineeto, # Love).
And again:
• [Vineeto]: “(…). Even after dismissing love as a concept or an option of relating, I still had to be watchful of my ‘love-attacks’, as I called them. They would come through the backdoor, seduce me with a rose-colored mood and appear so nice and cosy – such a temptation to surrender back into loving Peter instead of meeting him directly. However, I had understood and experienced often enough that any feeling for the other, howsoever sweet and soothing, would only make him a projected imaginary figure on my own screen of emotions, which can so easily change at the slightest whim. It had nothing to do with the actual person or situation. Being vigilant and persistently nibbling away at my habit of falling back into love proved to be a long process. After all, love and empathy are praised as woman’s greatest virtues! Later, love changed into the subtler version of feeling ‘connected’ to Peter, of having, through him, some kind of identity in my life. I caught myself wanting to use him as an outline for my own existence, as an anchor to define me as ‘person-in-relation’, a ‘self’. Examining it closer I discovered that this need for an anchor derives from the female instinct for protection. (…). I remember in the past whenever I had talked with girlfriends about the qualities of the future ‘perfect’ man, the worst and most terrible vision was to live with a man who was without feelings and emotions! The only option I could think of then was that he would repress his emotions and eventually explode, or that he would be a robot, a walking computer! At that time it was simply unimaginable that I would be able to relate to, let alone delight in living with such a man. And because my only identity and power had been to feel and express emotions, it was also inconceivable for me to be without them myself. Now living together is so simple, each of us minding our own business, down to details like money, car, sewing on a button or taking care of one’s health. And each of us is free to do it the way each prefers. Of course I enjoy making Peter a cup of coffee or he delights in cooking a meal for us. (…).
Applying Richard’s method has forced me to examine and eliminate the very issues and beliefs that are triggering those emotions. It revealed to me that emotions are the crucial part of the ‘self’ – the very cause of my being unhappy and malicious. It has enabled me to question the beliefs that both defined and confined me as a woman. Chiselling away my psychological and psychic entity has made emotions and feelings redundant and has left me increasingly free to enjoy every person I meet, every situation that happens and everything that this abundant universe offers. In my ‘role-play’ I am neither a ‘woman’ nor a ‘man’, but simply a human being … a female, of course! [emphases added]. (Vineeto, A Bit of Vineeto, # Love2).
It is, of course, advisable to re-read the above sections in their context at those online URLs.

‘Tis unfortunate the wealth of experience obtained by Someone Uniquely Recognisable By Her Inglish is not available for the elucidation of all feeling-beings – I am reluctant to make public knowledge of the details of an experiment unique in human experience/ human history, wherein a rather daring feeling-being deliberately and with knowledge aforethought fell deeply in love with a resident of the actual world (a process she publicly declared to be “a viable course” in becoming actually free via the ‘fusion’ aspect of love), due to the entire five-month experience having afterwards left her hurt, hurting and hurtful; e.g.: vindictive and vengeful[1] – as considerable light was thrown, for instance, on the fundamental necessity of possessiveness (a non-negotiable insistence on exclusivity) being an integral part of love’s maintenance.
Howsoever, despite this unfortunate lack of detail the outcome of that rather daring experiment has already been made public in the most melodramatic manner possible (i.e., via that seditious attempt to stop the global spread of peace-on-earth dead in its tracks – via the dissemination of all manner of made-up stuff about “Richard & Associates” until the outright ridiculousness those salacious fabulations brought about its ignominious melt-down – recently referred to in Message № 20220 (Richard, List D, No. 48a, #Richard&Associates)).
Nevertheless, back in 1997 when Devika was in the process of transmogrifying into being Irene, where she would flip back-and-forth betwixt the two personae, I recorded a conversation we had about love’s possessive nature one delightful morning in early winter (the weather at this latitude is such that winter-time is the dry season wherein the days are warm and sunny, mostly with brilliant blue skies and a clear atmosphere, and the nights are crisp to cold) as a feeling-being’s memory of apperceptive awareness is notoriously unreliable when it comes to the allure of love. (…) [Emphasis added]. (Richard, List D, James, 8 Aug 2015).

As this is already far too long a quote, I highly recommend reading the rest of the correspondence at leisure, perhaps in its original from the beginning for the helpful tool-tips, especially the footnote[1] at the very end. It really is a comprehensive summary of several practicing actualists, and their experiences all point towards the same direction – that love by its very nature is doomed to fail.

Scout: It makes me sad to think I might lose the company of someone I get along with so well because of this. The alleged intimacy of romantic love seems to be highly conditional. It’s funny because I was always worried that he “loved” me more because he was so doting towards me due to being in love with me, while I remained pretty independent. But now that the security of the relationship is compromised, it almost seems like the more grounded, less attached affection I’ve felt for him is actually purer and deeper than what he has been feeling for me, because it’s not conditional and doesn’t demand that he be anything to maintain it. (link)

Perhaps the above listed experiential reports help you to find out for yourself, by recounting your own experiences, that the alternative – a naïve intimacy – is worthwhile aiming for, with the full commitment of your own conviction.

Who knows, in the process your companion might be inspired by your persistent exploration and living of the alternative and your success with it. He might eventually find your demonstrably being more happy and harmless (considerate) more attractive than the possessiveness and sufferings associated with an all-or-nothing love-affair. If not, at least you will benefit from naively being more able to be happy and harmless.

Cheers Vineeto

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So I’ve been thinking about this and I think the answer is that for me as a woman, part of my ‘super power’ is the nurture. It’s how ‘I’ can relate to people. When I was younger it was being nurtured and now as I am getting older it is to do the nurturing. It places me in society, if I am nurturing i’m a ‘good’ woman, so ‘I’ have a vested interest in keeping the nurture around, it makes ‘me’ feel safe to be considered a ‘good’ woman to society. On the flipside, if ‘I’ am not nurturing, im cold, a bitch, etc… Although by ‘normal’ standards I’m not a overtly nurturing person and most people wouldnt describe me as nurturing, and yet no one has described me as cold or a bitch either. So this knee jerk reaction of fear that without nurture I’m going to be an evil robot is silly. It’s the same concern that came up when questioning love. It’s not an either or, it’s the third alternative.

I think the reason why I also want to keep ‘feeling connected’ is so I’m not soley responsible for my own happiness. So, I can rely on Kuba if I am happy or not, If he’s upset, then i subsequently get upset and can easily blame him for me being upset. It’s getting easier to grab it by the throat and look at it now when the feeling comes up. It’s the fear of standing on my own two feet and being accountable for my own happiness, without ‘feeling connected’ who can I blame when I am being upset?

I had my best friend visit me over the weekend, she knows I don’t prioritise love and she can experientally see that I still care for here and have not become an evil robot. I’m frank with her about actualism whenever she asks and I really enjoy spending time with her. She is someone apart from Kuba whom I’m not scared to be transparent with. Yet there is still a bit of ‘sisterhood’ that I am not quite letting go of yet, I know I don’t love her, she knows that as well and accepts that care and consideration is a priority for me over love for her. And with each little step of progress that I make I am taking a step away from sisterhood and into something much more substantial, that isn’t the ‘doom and gloom’ or the spiritual ‘mystery’ of being a ‘woman’ or ‘womanhood’. It is relating that is more than that. I don’t see the benefit of staying in the ‘sisterhood’ with its flipside, it isn’t ‘safe’ and it isn’t reliable. And I know that I won’t be an evil robot without it. It also doesn’t mean that I have to never interact with my female friends :rofl:

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Vineeto: what agenda do ‘you’ have to nurture him above and beyond fellowship regard? What benefit do you gain from “feeling connected” so much so that you are willing to worry about it/about him and are only happy when he is happy?

Sonya: So I’ve been thinking about this and I think the answer is that for me as a woman, part of my ‘super power’ is the nurture. It’s how ‘I’ can relate to people. When I was younger it was being nurtured and now as I am getting older it is to do the nurturing. It places me in society, if I am nurturing I’m a ‘good’ woman, so ‘I’ have a vested interest in keeping the nurture around, it makes ‘me’ feel safe to be considered a ‘good’ woman to society. On the flipside, if ‘I’ am not nurturing, I’m cold, a bitch, etc… Although by ‘normal’ standards I’m not a overtly nurturing person and most people wouldn’t describe me as nurturing, and yet no one has described me as cold or a bitch either. So this knee jerk reaction of fear that without nurture I’m going to be an evil robot is silly. It’s the same concern that came up when questioning love. It’s not an either or, it’s the third alternative.
I think the reason why I also want to keep ‘feeling connected’ is so I’m not solely responsible for my own happiness. So, I can rely on Kuba if I am happy or not, If he’s upset, then I subsequently get upset and can easily blame him for me being upset. It’s getting easier to grab it by the throat and look at it now when the feeling comes up. It’s the fear of standing on my own two feet and being accountable for my own happiness, without ‘feeling connected’ who can I blame when I am being upset?

Hi Sonya,

You found some excellent reasons why you so far shied away from giving up “‘feeling connected’”, and also that you found them not really compelling. It seems the one closest to home is the last one – “who can I blame when I am being upset?”

Who indeed, when you give this pattern up, can you blame? Then the responsibility, and the capacity, to change is in your hands and in your hands alone and, as Ian so excellently explained how to do it on another issue (link), this is eminently doable. You will also find it is very enjoyable to be in charge of your own feelings (rather than believe someone else did it to you) and therefore you are in charge of how you feel – excellent, of course.

Vineeto: So, since you already found out for yourself, by experience, that a love relationship is inferior to a partnership based on appreciation and enjoyment, why would you want to pretend it is otherwise just to belong to a group of women with whom you have nothing in common with?

Sonya: I had my best friend visit me over the weekend, she knows I don’t prioritise love and she can experientially see that I still care for here and have not become an evil robot. I’m frank with her about actualism whenever she asks and I really enjoy spending time with her. She is someone apart from Kuba whom I’m not scared to be transparent with. Yet there is still a bit of ‘sisterhood’ that I am not quite letting go of yet, I know I don’t love her, she knows that as well and accepts that care and consideration is a priority for me over love for her. And with each little step of progress that I make I am taking a step away from sisterhood and into something much more substantial, that isn’t the ‘doom and gloom’ or the spiritual ‘mystery’ of being a ‘woman’ or ‘womanhood’. It is relating that is more than that. I don’t see the benefit of staying in the ‘sisterhood’ with its flipside, it isn’t ‘safe’ and it isn’t reliable. And I know that I won’t be an evil robot without it. It also doesn’t mean that I have to never interact with my female friends. (link)

This sounds encouraging that your belief of the overall structure of “‘sisterhood’” and related loyalty is slowing losing its credibility and is less compelling than before to follow its associated beliefs. You are also discovering that you can replace those beliefs with genuine care and consideration and enjoy each other’s company even more.

Isn’t it remarkable what beneficial results attentiveness and sincere contemplation can bring about.

Cheers Vineeto

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I’m just popping this on here cause this has kinda been an ongoing issue that pops up for me quite often and im getting sick of it :rofl: It’s gonna look a bit mental but it’s just word vomit I am trying to make sense of so any help would be appreciated

Got upset because I FELT (feeling not fact) Kuba was blaming me for not being able to take jobs on the weekend

  • Feeling of being blamed stems from fear of not being “good” or being punished. I feel responsible for other people’s feelings. “I” am BEING upset, angry - there is also the feeling of justice. Feeling wrongfully accused.

Why am I upset: Justice, being told off, feeling like Kuba isn’t doing anything and just leaves it on me to just “figure it out” last minute.

Facts of the situation:

  1. He wants to not book things in advance in the future incase job requests comes up - okay, makes sense
  2. He wants to find somewhere we can leave Poncho if both of us are out the house for the day - okay, makes sense

How I took what he said -

You fucked up and are being aren’t being considerate, how you handled the situation isn’t good enough, you need to do better. You are not doing good enough - this brings up strong emotion, tears, throat closing, tight chest.

This is similar to Ian’s post in some ways but I cant quite get to seeing the belief for what it is

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Sonya: I’m just popping this on here cause this has kinda been an ongoing issue that pops up for me quite often and I’m getting sick of it It’s gonna look a bit mental but it’s just word vomit I am trying to make sense of so any help would be appreciated
11/07/25 – Got upset because I FELT (feeling not fact) Kuba was blaming me for not being able to take jobs on the weekend (…)
(…) He changed his mind/ job requests came in – nothing I can do about it/ I did what I could so he could decide what he wanted to do on Friday… so why do I feel blame? –

Hi Sonya,

What you report is quite a complex situation for you. Hence it might be useful to peel it like an onion.

First you report there are the feelings of upset and then blame.

Have you noticed how these are almost always come one right after the other, almost indistinguishable from each other. But they are two different feeling. You felt upset because your plans/ expectations were disrupted and then you find someone to blame for the ‘damage’ done.

This is the usual automatic instinctive response (so don’t blame yourself), but with diligent and fascinated attentiveness to how you experience yourself each moment you can separate them out.

Then, still feeling bad, you endeavour to fix the problem but whatever you do does not help you feeling good. Hence, at this point it would be best to first get back to feeling good yourself while it’s still emerging before complicating it further with reactive action.

Sonja: Responsible for how he is feeling? I feel he is now annoyed so now I am no longer happy (because I feel we are connected?) I feel responsible, have a thing about being in trouble/ told off. Authority as well maybe?

You talked about this before, that because you like to “feel connected” you therefore “feel responsible for how he is feeling” and you try to make him happy. Yet by focussing on making the other happy you overlook/ ignore how you feel.

Also, you don’t know for a fact if he needs help – it is simply an automatic feeling response. Because you feel bad you infer that he is “annoyed” and respond accordingly. He could well have been “annoyed” but then that is first and foremost his own responsibility.

Sonya: I feel responsible, have a thing about being in trouble/ told off. Authority as well maybe?

I only listed the sequence of events so you can look out for the smaller triggers and in future avert the (so far) inevitable conclusion (“I feel responsible”). It’s a habitual response and you have already found one cause – you want to be responsible because it gives you a connection – it is also possibly that it is an old survival technique acquired when you needed it. But when you get a chance to sort out facts from feelings you might find that it’s no longer needed for your survival but more likely a habit which you can question and replace with something better – a naïve intimacy perhaps?

Sonja: This is similar to Ian’s post in some ways but I can’t quite get to seeing the belief for what it is. (link)

What Ian did and reported a few times, he recognized that nobody else is responsible for how he feels. Taking back this authority to choose which feeling he wants to be (as in I am my feelings and my feelings are me) he can then look at his beliefs if they serve him to enjoy and appreciate this moment. Viz.:

Ian: So I was just contemplating further what was holding this feeling… examining the belief in being a good employee, which has roots in being a good boy, which I had realised not only is rooted in fear of punishment but also in desire for reward, whether that is popularity or praise or both, and also somewhat in nurture… my loving nature wanting those I loved to feel good and not be upset or disappointed… I feel responsible for their happiness and wellbeing… I seek to be harmless but actually cause myself harm… (link)

If you exchange “being a good employee” for “being a good wife” then you can perhaps acknowledge/ recognize that you make both the rules for the “good wife” and then enforce those rules on both you and him and recognize that those rules are “rooted in fear of punishment but also in desire for reward, whether that is popularity or praise or both”.

See if that makes sense for you.

Cheers Vineeto

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Hi Vineeto,

Thanks for your reply.

I haven’t noticed that them to be different feelings before but it makes sense that one comes after the other.

Yes, I notice this tends to happen with me, if a strong emotion takes over I find myself reacting by trying to solve it immediately which has never worked so far :joy: I think I feel so uncomfortable and ashamed of being emotional again that I scramble and panic to ‘fix’ it and then of course get frustrated that I can’t fix it and then struggle to feel good again until i just stop and “let the dust settle”

It’s funny cause when I read that I thought “it makes me happy to make him happy” but of course that’s just me not being in charge of my own feelings and shying from standing on my own two feet again! It’s only relying entirely on someone else to react the way I want them to which is unreliable.

Im starting to see more now that I am entirely putting how I feel in the hands of someone else to praise or punish.

It’s starting to make sense.

Thank you

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Sonya: Hi Vineeto,
Thanks for your reply.

Hi Sonya,

You are welcome.

Vineeto: First you report there are the feelings of upset and then blame.
Have you noticed how these are almost always come one right after the other, almost indistinguishable from each other. But they are two different feeling.

Sonya: I haven’t noticed that them to be different feelings before but it makes sense that one comes after the other.

Good. Now that it makes sense, you have the opportunity to catch it and not have it escalate, and first get back to feeling good after being upset before considering further action.

Vineeto: Then, still feeling bad, you endeavour to fix the problem but whatever you do does not help you feeling good. Hence, at this point it would be best to first get back to feeling good yourself while it’s still emerging before complicating it further with reactive action.

Sonya: Yes, I notice this tends to happen with me, if a strong emotion takes over I find myself reacting by trying to solve it. immediately which has never worked so far. I think I feel so uncomfortable and ashamed of being emotional again that I scramble and panic to ‘fix’ it and then of course get frustrated that I can’t fix it and then struggle to feel good again until I just stop and “let the dust settle”.

There is a common misunderstanding by people interested in actualism –

Richard: It is impossible to be a ‘stripped-down’ self – divested of feelings – for ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’. Anyone who attempts this absurdity would wind up being somewhat like what is known in psychiatric terminology as a ‘sociopathic personality’ (popularly known as ‘psychopath’). Such a person still has feelings – ‘cold’, ‘callous’, ‘indifferent’ – and has repressed the others. What the wide and wondrous path to an actual freedom is on about is a virtual freedom wherein the ‘good’ feelings – the affectionate and desirable emotions and passions (those that are loving and trusting) are minimised along with the ‘bad’ feelings – the hostile and invidious emotions and passions (those that are hateful and fearful) – so that one is free to be feeling good, feeling happy and harmless and feeling excellent/perfect for 99% of the time. If one deactivates the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ feelings and activates the felicitous/ innocuous feelings (happiness, delight, joie de vivre/ bonhomie, friendliness, amiability and so on) with this freed-up affective energy, in conjunction with sensuousness (delectation, enjoyment, appreciation, relish, zest, gusto and so on), then the ensuing sense of amazement, marvel and wonder can result in apperceptiveness (unmediated perception).
Then everything I write about is self-evident. (Richard, AF List, No. 32, 4 May 2002)

So, you see, feeling “uncomfortable and ashamed of being emotional again” is only aggravating the problem, and it’s completely unnecessary. You, like everyone, are a feeling being and actualism provides the third alternative. Instead of either expressing the feeling or repressing it, you can become aware of the feeling when it is happening and acknowledge that you are the feeling (not just having a feeling). Then you have the choice to channel the affective energy towards the happy and harmless feelings. Not being ashamed of the feeling itself helps a great deal to diminish it in the first place and get back to feeling good. Then you can check out what triggered the upset.

Vineeto: Yet by focussing on making the other happy you overlook/ ignore how you feel.

Sonya: It’s funny cause when I read that I thought “it makes me happy to make him happy” but of course that’s just me not being in charge of my own feelings and shying from standing on my own two feet again! It’s only relying entirely on someone else to react the way I want them to which is unreliable.

The way to be “in charge” of your feelings is to be affectively aware when they are happening and address the situation as I described above.

The more you get the knack (learn the trick) to notice a diminishment in enjoyment and appreciation and get back to feeling good (by seeing how silly it is to waste this precious moment of being alive)[1] the more you will see that standing on your own feet comes more naturally. If you decline to obey your inclination to dependency then the alternative becomes obvious – to explore naïve intimacy is possible.

[1]
Respondent: How does the mere seeing how silly it is make us happy once again?
Richard: Because nothing, absolutely nothing, is worth getting malicious or miserable about (let alone compensatingly loving and compassionate) when the realisation that this moment is the only one there ever is becomes the actuality it already always is. (Richard, List D, No. 11, 24 Nov 2009).

Ian: … examining the belief in being a good employee, which has roots in being a good boy, which I had realised not only is rooted in fear of punishment but also in desire for reward, whether that is popularity or praise or both …
Vineeto: If you exchange “being a good employee” for “being a good wife” then you can perhaps acknowledge/ recognize that you make both the rules for the “good wife” and then enforce those rules on both you and him and recognize that those rules are “rooted in fear of punishment but also in desire for reward, whether that is popularity or praise or both”.

Sonya: I’m starting to see more now that I am entirely putting how I feel in the hands of someone else to praise or punish.
It’s starting to make sense.
Thank you

That is great – now you can put this insight into practice each time you notice it happening via an ongoing attentiveness, which will allow you to decline the way you have been brought up, this habitual inclination to dependency. You already know it ends up in unnecessary trouble. Knowing this you can make an autonomous sensible choice.

I wish you good success.

Cheers Vineeto

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I had an experience yesterday that I’m not too sure what to make of. I spoke to Kuba about it and he has an idea on what may have happened but thought it might be a good idea to pop it on here to see what anyone else thinks! :blush:

Yesterday we are at a family BBQ on a lovely english summer day enjoying Polish sausages (my favourite haha) and chatting away. I remember that delight and happiness was amping up, growing and growing. I was just having a great time! I looked up from my plate and as I looked at Kuba there was a whoosh and it was like I was looking at him for the first time. Everything was so fresh and delightful. I was so interested in this face right infront of me. It wasn’t loving feelings because what I was experiencing wasn’t internal if that makes sense? It wasn’t a heaviness or pining, it was very light and fresh and outside of me? It only lasted a few seconds as he asked me “what’s up?”. I noticed that he was looking at me too, I got shy and the freshness faded away. Some of it still lingered throughout the evening but definitely less.

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Hi Sonya,

I think what you wrote yourself some time ago might give you a clue –

Sonya: It’s the times when I let go of this ‘life line’ and ‘I’ get in the way again to try to plan/ scheme/ take more control Is when I notice I’m not living in this moment but in an imaginary future and everything dulls. Whereas when I’m just enjoying and appreciating this moment it’s like the world is in HD and so vibrant. (link)

And Kuba was most likely hinting at his own experience last month (2 July) when he said he “he has an idea”

Kuba: There was one thing that happened about 30min ago which was especially precious. I was chilling on the sofa with Sonya and poncho (my dog). I went to cuddle poncho and all of a sudden it was like that veil of reality was pulled back and I saw both Sonya and poncho as actually existing. It’s hard to convey the importance of those words – “actually existing”. But it goes some way to consider that not a single one of the ‘events’ which ever happened in ‘my’ reality were genuine. That the entirety of ‘my’ life was never genuine.
And now that curtain got pulled back and an actually existing world was revealed, so precious to discover it!

Vineeto: I fully understand the importance of those words as I remember ‘Vineeto’s’ first experience of this happening, it was quite world-view-shattering for ‘her’ –

‘Vineeto’: The next vital and essential break-through in understanding was my first major peak experience (PCE). What had started off one evening as ‘a roaming in the vast chambers of my mind’, psychic experiences and an expanded state of consciousness suddenly took a turn from ‘inner reality’ to actuality. It happened when Peter looked at me and said ‘hello, how are you doing?’ [Perhaps vaguely similar to Richard asking Pamela, “how is it as you sit here now”? (@13.53 min)].
I popped out of my inner world of feelings and imagination and, questioning the very validity of all I felt and thought, entered the world beyond beliefs and feelings – the actual world. Here was another human being, a flesh-and-blood person without any particular identity [for me] and he wanted to talk to me. And here I was, also a flesh-and-blood person without a particular identity, sitting on an old couch and curious to talk to this man that I was meeting for the first time.
I had never met the actual Peter; I had only related to him through the curtain of my expectations and classifications, through the filter of my social identity, through the grey or rose-coloured glasses of my ‘self’. What was initially a shocking surprise quickly turned into fascination and delight to have discovered something so simple and so pure – actual intimacy with another person and the perfection of the actual world. Here we were, two human beings, meeting for the first time, without past or future. No grand feelings, in fact, no feelings at all, but the pleasure of mutual undivided attention as to what the other is going to say next… [square-bracketed inserts added]. (Actualism, Vineeto, AF List, James2, 7.4.2000). (link)

Sonya: I remember that delight and happiness was amping up, growing and growing. I was just having a great time! (link)

Isn’t it amazing what can happen when “delight and happiness” is “amping up, growing and growing”!

So when you wonder what best to do, it is to be happy and harmless, and when it’s not only based on special events but just bubbling up because it’s such a joy to simply be alive, even better.

Here is Richard talking about being harmless – and it’s not at all anything to do with being ‘unselfish’ –

Martin: Does harmlessness have nothing to do with ‘others’?
• [Richard]: “(…) it may be worthwhile bearing in mind that it is impossible to be happy (be happy as in being carefree), as distinct from feeling happy, without being harmless (being harmless as in being innocuous), as distinct from feeling harmless, and to be happy and harmless is to be unable to induce suffering – etymologically the word ‘harmless’ (harm + less) comes from the Old Norse ‘harmr’ (meaning grief, sorrow) – either in oneself or another”. [emphasis in original]. (Richard, AF List, No. 62, 26 Mar 2004).

Richard: Thus to be harmless as per actualism lingo (being free of malice) is beneficial both to oneself – plus it feels unpleasant (hedonically) to feel malicious (affectively) anyway – as well to others due to being unable to induce suffering either in oneself or another, via affective vibes and psychic currents, and vice versa. (…)
Martin: (…) I don’t think I’ve really understood what harmless means, as I can’t help but either put ‘myself’ or ‘others’ first (as a kind of denial of ‘self’) when I think of being harmless. (…) ‘Harmlessness’ feels like something you do to another human being – or an effect you have on them – but do you simply mean it as an absence of malice and sorrow?
Richard: Do you see how almost all of that paragraph you wrote as a lead-up to your query about being harmless – as in “but do you simply mean it as an absence of malice and sorrow?” that is – stems from or revolves around that hoary religio-spiritual practice of putting each and every other ‘self’ before one’s own ‘self’ (a.k.a. being an unselfish ‘self’) so as to counter selfishness? (…)
As being harmless does not feature in religio-spiritual practice – peace-on-earth is not on the religio-spiritual agenda – then the sooner that nonsense about being an unselfish ‘self’ is abandoned the better. (Richard, List D, Martin, 6 Aug 2016).

There is more practical information in this correspondence if you want to read it to the end.

So, enjoy, and give your enjoyment the tick of approval (appreciate).

Cheers Vineeto

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