Sonya’s journal

[Kub933]

What a fascinating discussion! Reading about Richard’s time as an artist I can’t help but think back to my days of doing Parkour as a teenager.

It was only when ‘I’ got out of the way and the painting painted itself, so to speak, or the drawing drew itself/ the sculpture sculpted itself/ the pottery formed itself (and so on) that craft – all the painstakingly acquired skills – became art.

Indeed this was precisely my experience and in my case it was the jumps doing themselves, and it was simply incredible to experience what the body was capable of. Those days of doing Parkour were in such sharp contrast to what would happen when I was back at school. Weekends would be spent naively enjoying what this body is capable of and then the week would be a painful return to reality, to the world of responsibilities and obligations and plans and schemes and the rest of it.

Back then I did consider this possibility, that what if I could live like this all the time. But the closest I found was this self-help author by the name of Dan Millman who pioneered what he called the peaceful warrior’s way. He was an ex-gymnast who (I assume) also wanted to experience life in this manner, of life living itself, just like the moments he would have experienced as an athlete.

The “peaceful warrior’s way” called for moment by moment attention to what is happening right now, however without the awareness of the existence of the third alternative it was of course inspired by the morals and ethics which came from spirituality. I simply didn’t know any better so that is what I did, but deep down what I always wanted was for life to live itself, not for ‘me’ to have to be continually mindful of applying various morals and ethics. How incredible that Richard was naive enough to “crack the code”, that having experienced actual perfection and purity he set out to affectively imitate that very perfection and purity rather than falling back to any of the ‘human wisdom’.

But what that teenage boy called Kuba wanted back then is what I can live now, that just as the jumps jumped themselves, life lives itself, and just like ‘I’ would get out of the way just before a big jump being done ‘I’ can get out of the way and allow this moment to happen of it’s own accord.

I can see that the whole thrust of the conditioning that one is subjected to during their acculturation demands the opposite of one, that ‘I’ learn to be proud (and humble), that ‘I’ learn to take responsibility and obligation, that ‘I’ learn to attempt to fit life into ‘my’ schemes and plans, that ‘I’ learn to “worry about the future” etc.

Whereas this direction of life living itself, to contemplate proceeding there it requires naivete, it is 180 degrees opposite. It is seeing that ‘I’ am not required at all, whereas in the ‘real world’ to consider such a thing is seen as utter foolishness, it is a dog eat dog world out there after all

Where life lives itself there is no longer any possibility for obligation or responsibility, then 'I’ am freed from this task of living 'my’ life. Just like ‘Richard’ could not take credit for the art which painted itself 'I’ can neither be proud nor humble where life lives itself, which means 'I’ can finally rest from the task of maintaining 'myself’ and 'my’ life.

That’s not such a big ask is it, to finally have a rest from all that What I observe in ‘myself’ is that each time ‘I’ dare to proceed in this direction, of ‘my’ progressive retirement and eventually ‘my’ complete departure is that both the ‘human wisdom’ and ‘my’ instinctual nature will initially resist this.
From the eyes of ‘human wisdom’ it seems utterly foolish and from the eyes of ‘my’ passionate instinctual nature it feels dangerous. Yet looking back each time ‘I’ dared to release the controls and to step back a little more things only got better, and things have only been getting better, in every way going.

[Sonyaxx]

@Kub933

Indeed this was precisely my experience and in my case it was the jumps doing themselves

Yes! I think this is why I enjoy my dance classes so much. I take a step back and the body is just doing what ever it needs to do. There is no ‘thinking’. Infact, the times when ‘I’ get involved are the times that I start to ovethink and not do the ‘best’

It’s interesting that in sports it’s beneficial to remain calm and steady, to not ‘let the emotions get the better of you’ because their bodies already know what to do, and it’s recognised that your feelings get in the way. But the same is not applied to daily life.

[Vineeto]

Kuba: But what that teenage boy called Kuba wanted back then is what I can live now, that just as the jumps jumped themselves, life lives itself, and just like ‘I’ would get out of the way just before a big jump being done ‘I’ can get out of the way and allow this moment to happen of it’s own accord.
I can see that the whole thrust of the conditioning that one is subjected to during their acculturation demands the opposite of one, that ‘I’ learn to be proud (and humble), that ‘I’ learn to take responsibility and obligation, that ‘I’ learn to attempt to fit life into ‘my’ schemes and plans, that ‘I’ learn to “worry about the future” etc.
Whereas this direction of life living itself, to contemplate proceeding there it requires naivete, it is 180 degrees opposite. It is seeing that ‘I’ am not required at all, whereas in the ‘real world’ to consider such a thing is seen as utter foolishness, it is a dog eat dog world out there after all.
Where life lives itself there is no longer any possibility for obligation or responsibility, then 'I’ am freed from this task of living 'my’ life. Just like ‘Richard’ could not take credit for the art which painted itself 'I’ can neither be proud nor humble where life lives itself, which means 'I’ can finally rest from the task of maintaining 'myself’ and 'my’ life.
That’s not such a big ask is it, to finally have a rest from all that. What I observe in ‘myself’ is that each time ‘I’ dare to proceed in this direction, of ‘my’ progressive retirement and eventually ‘my’ complete departure is that both the ‘human wisdom’ and ‘my’ instinctual nature will initially resist this.
From the eyes of ‘human wisdom’ it seems utterly foolish and from the eyes of ‘my’ passionate instinctual nature it feels dangerous. Yet looking back each time ‘I’ dared to release the controls and to step back a little more things only got better, and things have only been getting better, in every way going. (link)

Hi Kuba,

You are correct – looking at it sensibly/ apperceptively it is “not such a big ask is it, to finally have a rest from all that.” It is to stop doing what you have been told to do throughout your life – ‘doing it their way’ – and allow ‘doing’ what it happening of its own accord – ‘doing it your way’.

Respondent: What was the difference between you and them?
Richard: I am none too sure there was any difference: I was a normal person; I was born of normal parents; I had normal siblings; I had a normal upbringing; I attended a normal (state) school; I obtained a normal occupation; I had a normal wife; I had normal children … and so on and so forth.
Respondent: The way you describe it, it wasn’t even that much of a struggle for you (found the secret to life inside the first three months???).
Richard: It was inside the first few weeks, actually, of putting into action what was startlingly evident in the four-hour pure consciousness experience (PCE) which had finally provided the direction my otherwise following-the-herd way of living was singularly lacking (although there was a six-month incubation period between the PCE and the application thereof).
I distinctly recall informing my then-wife at the time that I had ‘done it their way’, for 34 years and to no avail, and that it was high-time I did it my way (and when she asked what way that was I said that I did not know but that it would become progressively apparent with each step I took).
Respondent: So why haven’t millions of others discovered that they can feel excellent by choosing to …
Richard: Quite possibly – and I am not being facetious here – they were/ are waiting for someone else to do it/ show the way (for, despite many peoples huff-and-puff about leaders, there have always been pioneers, who have blazed the trails others follow, and always will be).
Respondent: … unless, of course, they can’t …
Richard: It is not so much a case of they can not but, rather, that they will not. [Emphasis added]. (Richard, AF List, No. 60g, 30 Oct 2005b).

Richard: And although one may think and feel that it would be a lonely journey to take on one’s own it is not … it is the most joyous escapade one can ever enter into.
It is the jaunt of a lifetime. (Richard, AF List, Alan-b, 13 Dec 1999).

It looks like you get well used to and immensely enjoy now doing it your way, step by step.

Cheers Vineeto

[Kub933]

@Vineeto

It looks like you get well used to and immensely enjoy now doing it your way, step by step.

Hehe yes I am indeed having fun “doing it my way”, as an example - We have been decorating the house recently and we bought a nice vase that I wanted to fill. Yesterday I noticed that instead of buying flowers from the shop I could simply trim some of the shrubbery that is growing in front of the house already, I had quite a blast creating a make-shift bouquet, and it looks pretty good to boot!

This is naively “doing it my way” because this kinda thought would not even have occurred to me in the past, it was a lot of fun all in all.

[Sonyaxx]

So I’ve been keeping the experience of that ‘ah ha!’ moment at the front of my mind. The seeing that everything is happening on it’s own accord without ‘me’ actually deciding anything has been pretty relevant for me lately. I mostly find myself loosening the ‘reigns of control’ when im driving and noticing how easy everyhing is and how much more fun I am having when I let go a bit more. It’s realising experientialy, bit by bit that it’s actually better in every way to step back. I notice that it’s when ‘I’ pop up and start planning/ schemeing is when the light/ fun flavour of the world around me dulls. It’s like im seeing the world through different lenses depending on how much ‘in contol’ ‘i’ am.

[Sonyaxx]

I’ve also begun to grasp how important the affective vibes are when I had a convo with Kuba last night. I had my Bachlorette party last weekend where a couple friends had mentioned how I was the ‘happiest soul’ and they always feel recharged after interacting with me. Apart from being a little surprised and pleased that the people I interact with regularly percieve me that way, it made me realise how important being happy and harmless is, how the affective vibes ‘i’ put out will always be picked up on, whether its being happy or angry. How the best thing I can do for the people I care about is to be happy and harmless 24/7

[Kub933]

Yes it’s amazing really because I have seen the transition happen too, there has been a consistent happiness and harmlessness for both of us like never before in the past. So much so that it takes less and less vigilance to keep it going, in fact virtually no vigilance needed at this point - it just happens.

It was funny when your friends asked the other day what we are like when we argue, and we had to answer (sincerely) that we can’t really say as we don’t really argue at all

[Sonyaxx]

Just in time to walk down the aisle this weekend haha

I do notice that I have also found it harder to hold on to being serious. There have been a few fleeting moments when ‘i’ have felt I needed to be serious and be upset about something and one look at you grinning at me in playfullness and it all just dissapates. What a waste it would be to be serious and upset when I could enjoy this moment with you.

The only time we seem to argue is usually when I’m on my period but notably a couple weeks ago when I had my period you didn’t notice at all which is a big YAY! . Now to keep it consistent.

[Vineeto]

Sonya: So I’ve been keeping the experience of that ‘ah ha!’ moment at the front of my mind. The seeing that everything is happening on its own accord without ‘me’ actually deciding anything has been pretty relevant for me lately. I mostly find myself loosening the ‘reigns of control’ when I’m driving and noticing how easy everything is and how much more fun I am having when I let go a bit more. It’s realising experientially, bit by bit that it’s actually better in every way to step back. I notice that it’s when ‘I’ pop up and start planning/ scheming is when the light/ fun flavour of the world around me dulls. It’s like I’m seeing the world through different lenses depending on how much ‘in control’ ‘I’ am. (link)

Hi Sonya,

This is a great discovery and one which stands you in good stead every time you remember “to step back”. Being more and more naïve makes life not only easier but so much more fun!

Sonya: Just in time to walk down the aisle this weekend haha.

Congratulations to both of you – you both have the tools, the commitment and dedication to live together in peace and harmony.

Sonya (to Kuba): I do notice that I have also found it harder to hold on to being serious. There have been a few fleeting moments when ‘I’ have felt I needed to be serious and be upset about something and one look at you grinning at me in playfulness and it all just dissipates. What a waste it would be to be serious and upset when I could enjoy this moment with you.

Hehe, it’s such fun to have a happy playmate and you already noticed and reported that you can have this non-serious enjoyment with other people as well. (link) It is indeed contagious.

The only time we seem to argue is usually when I’m on my period but notably a couple weeks ago when I had my period you didn’t notice at all which is a big YAY! Now to keep it consistent. (link)

You might like this section from Richard’s journal, which I found while looking for something else, revelling in the delights of peaceful and harmonious companionship –

Richard: From where I am sitting I can see into the carpets, bedding, pillows and curtains, it looks snug and inviting. Light, seeping from the curtained portholes, casts a cosy glow around the hulls, reflecting this exquisite home as it sits safely upon the inky-black water. I am indeed having a wonderful time … and it is a well-earned wonderful time, too. Nothing has come without application – apart from some serendipitous discoveries because of pure intent – and my companion and I am reaping the rewards.
The dividends resulting from taking the risk are plentiful and deliciously satisfying. The abandonment of the mystique freed me up to a world of actual splendour, based firmly upon sensual and sexual delight. The actual and unabashed enjoyment of our bodies and the world around us is such a luscious and immediate experience, that the tantalising but ever elusive promise of the mystique is slowly fading into the oblivion it deserves. Somewhere, shrouded in the Mists Of Time, humans were deprived of their birthright; their exquisite sensual and sexual joy was usurped by the mystique. With its unfulfillable covenant – its promise of an ineffable, never to-be-explained, unfathomable core of Mystical Bliss – mystique had become the successful repressor of human being’s genuine sexuality and sensuality.
This easily explicates just why, throughout the ages and the cultures, both men and women have been repressing a woman’s sexuality. In the western societies the more obvious ‘reasons’ for repression are no longer valid: every woman is well-educated in genetics, is basically able to live independently of a man’s financial support, has easy access to contraception and, with the advent of modern medical discoveries, has no need to succumb to the “old wives’ tales”. This made me question why the repression continues. This made me ask why, in most orthodox sexual information, the emphasis is still only on menstrual cycles, sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy procedures and a clinical description of the genitalia. Why is it that mothers – and fathers too, for that matter – do not talk about the excitement of the sight and touch of an aroused penis? Or the titillating feeling of erect nipples? The crawling, tingling, tickling sensation in the lower belly? The warmth of the vulva which opens to the moist and full coloured lips? Why are parents not revelling in talking about the glorious sensations when touching, stroking, licking, rubbing, pressing … the acutely responsive clitoris … the readily excitable penis … the increasingly juicy tension building up … unabashedly wallowing in the sensual and sexual world of purely sensate physical delight.
The answer was both clear and simple: people would rather be Sacred than actual. (Richard’s Journal, Article Two)

Enjoy, and then some more.

Cheers Vineeto

[Sonyaxx]

We had our wedding on Saturday so I just wanted to reflect on the day. The best way I could have described it was just utter joy, there was no drama and little to no nervousness. Just good vibes It made me realise the capability we all have to be happy and harmless, the atmosphere of happiness was palpable. I was completely comfortable and feeling light. I did get emotional walking down the aisle after my dad said to me “and then youre gone…” right before entering the room I just felt an immense surge of appreciation for everything he had done for me, and then seeing Kuba standing at the end of the aisle smiling at me with Fearless by Taylor Swift playing in the background just sent me over the edge

Anyways, the good vibes has carried on until today and I am filled with happiness and alot of appreciation for the people I have in my life. This is another experience for me to hold on to and keep at the forefront of my mind, a reminder to be happy and harmless as much as possible.

P.S thought you guys might appreciate the hibiscus

[Sonyaxx]

I’m really enjoying appreciating the people I interact with currently I think ever since I clearly saw that everything was happening on its own accord for that brief moment. It really flipped a switch in me. It’s like I found a life line that I’ve been holding onto and it’s added a sense of freedom which has made living life significantly better. Nothing really has changed day to day in terms of my routine but now theres this enticing thought of not being needed that I can’t get away from that allows me to step back a little which adds a sprinkle of fun to my life! So, when I interact with people theres less of an agenda or a sense of responsibility and things can just flow better

I’ve also noticed how obsessed I am with enjoying Kuba’s company. It’s so nice, I can’t seem to get enough of him and it doesn’t go away! . For a while there was some lingering resentment/ seriousness which I can say has mostly disappeared now or if it does pipe up, it disappates quickly. It’s just wonderful to live life alongside him

It’s the times when I let go of this ‘life line’ and ‘I’ get in the way again to try to plan/scheme/ take more control Is when I notice im not living in this moment but in an imaginary future and everything dulls. Whereas when im just enjoying and appreciating this moment it’s like the world is in HD and so vibrant.

So things are going really well and I’m finding that life isn’t so serious

[Sonyaxx]

Last night I decided to have a bath thinking it’s Friday evening and I thought “oh I get to relax now” A moment later, I realised it was Thursday evening and I still have work tomorrow and I felt the tension again Now, why am I giving myself permission to enjoy a hot bath only if it’s a Friday night?

I realised I’ve been still sneakily planning for the future. Knowing I have work the next day I begin planning that I have to wake up early in the morning to go to work ( I’m not a morning person) So, unfortunately I have been already getting in the ‘ugh i have to wake up early’ state of mind before I have to even to do that. Thus, ruining the enjoyment of my evening to some degree as I am already getting in the way and planning to be annoyed at being woken up

Also just now realising that it’s not the waking up early that I have resistance towards, or is it that I have to go to work. It’s the thought that when I wake up there are imaginary ‘things’ I ‘have’ to do so I stop enjoying and appreciating this moment to be alive because I feel I have to ‘ready’ myself for the future of doing ‘things’!

[Sonyaxx]

So I’ve constantly been having a few thoughts in the back of my mind that keep popping up so I thought Ill try write them down and try to figure out what’s going on with love for me.

I would say largely that love is out of the picture for me. I see to an extent that love is a double edged sword and doesn’t deliver the goods. To me, it’s a heavy, serious, sickly and always made me feel icky. I would say I’ve never fallen balls deep in that kind of “romantic” love. It would “give me the ick” when someone would fall in love with me. So, when I met Kuba and he said he wasn’t interested in love that was ideal.

Fast forward into our relationship, loving feelings of course began to develop for the first time. Being 19/20 and still figuring out alot about life, this new whirl wind of feelings hit like a tonne of bricks. Kuba and I never really fed into the loving feels but they were still somewhat there for me. Of course from it arose insecurities, expectations, control etc. I found that I was losing myself to some extent, I would do things out of love and if it wasn’t reciprocated I got upset. Each time that conflict or bad feelings would come up because of love I dismissed it and brushed it under the rug. I think cause we never really talked about it and I didn’t see the sense of it to a certain extent, it never grew past a certain point but it was still there.

I did eventuallly manage to eliminate most of it when I realised that I was getting upset and keeping love around by relating to Kuba as my ‘boyfriend’ and being in a ‘relationship’ with him. That came with all the expectaions of those roles that I put on him and myself and that included the loving feelings. I think after realising that and freeing myself from those expectations and Kuba from my expectations from him I was able to stand on my two feet a bit more and interact Kuba in a fresher way. Less expectations, more fun, light, playful. I thought the job was done.

Nope I was reading “A Bit of Vineeto” today when the below clicked for me

love changed into the subtler version of feeling ‘connected’

The main crux of love was largely diminished but I am still feeling connected to him. My feelings are still influenced by how he’s feeling. For a while I could say that I wasn’t in love with Kuba but there was something still there that was in the way of experiencing him directly without tinted glasses and I think it’s the feeling of being connected. I am not yet standing on my own two feet and still looking to Kuba to hold my hand.

[Sonyaxx]

I’d like to say that I also feel like such a fraud being in very feminine spaces and not believing in love, it does feel a little lonely at times but I also know I can’t go back to believing in it after seeing it for what it is.

[scout]

really interesting to hear that the two of you are happily married without sharing the typical bond of “romantic love”. it’s also not an experience i’ve had fully mutually, and like you said it’s very dominant in the feminine narrative, so i was spoon-fed this notion that it’s the greatest thing i can possibly experience. i don’t know if it’s something i feel fully ready to move past because it’s not something i’ve seen and experienced clearly for myself yet, i’m still curious (though i am currently in an about-to-end relationship where i am seeing its uglier face). but it’s fascinating to hear about your experience of partnership without it

[Sonyaxx]

Hi Scout,

I can say for both of us we didn’t really see marriage happening as there wasn’t any sensible reason to at the time. Of course now the situation has changed and we have gotten married because it made sense.

@scout

i don’t know if it’s something i feel fully ready to move past because it’s not something i’ve seen and experienced clearly for myself yet

For me it was seeing what someone was like when they were in love, and how someone who cared for me but wasn’t in love with me behaved. For the latter, we were both still living our own lives but didn’t fall into the typical ‘roles’ which meant less expectations and less resentment. In fact, there was just more caring and less control, manipulation. I think originally there was still some skepticism into exploring what a partnership will be like without love but I can say experiantally it’s the way to go. I also had to keep in mind that we weren’t just eliminating love but replacing it with something better and care and appreciation had to be at the forefront.

[Vineeto]

Sonya: So I’ve constantly been having a few thoughts in the back of my mind that keep popping up so I thought Ill try write them down and try to figure out what’s going on with love for me.
I would say largely that love is out of the picture for me. I see to an extent that love is a double edged sword and doesn’t deliver the goods. To me, it’s a heavy, serious, sickly and always made me feel icky. I would say I’ve never fallen balls deep in that kind of “romantic” love. It would “give me the ick” when someone would fall in love with me. So, when I met Kuba and he said he wasn’t interested in love that was ideal.
Fast forward into our relationship, loving feelings of course began to develop for the first time. Being 19/20 and still figuring out a lot about life, this new whirl wind of feelings hit like a tonne of bricks. Kuba and I never really fed into the loving feels but they were still somewhat there for me. Of course from it arose insecurities, expectations, control etc. I found that I was losing myself to some extent, I would do things out of love and if it wasn’t reciprocated I got upset. Each time that conflict or bad feelings would come up because of love I dismissed it and brushed it under the rug. I think cause we never really talked about it and I didn’t see the sense of it to a certain extent, it never grew past a certain point but it was still there.

Hi Sonya,

You really describe well how all the feelings under the umbrella of love are actually being in the way of feeling happy and harmless, of enjoying and appreciating being alive. And then how you looked at them, and more and more discovered that it makes simply no sense to keep having the same expectations resulting in the same disappointment, because of the ‘narrative’ of love.

Sonya: I did eventually manage to eliminate most of it when I realised that I was getting upset and keeping love around by relating to Kuba as my ‘boyfriend’ and being in a ‘relationship’ with him. That came with all the expectations of those roles that I put on him and myself and that included the loving feelings. I think after realising that and freeing myself from those expectations and Kuba from my expectations from him I was able to stand on my two feet a bit more and interact Kuba in a fresher way. Less expectations, more fun, light, playful. I thought the job was done.
Nope I was reading “A Bit of Vineeto” today when the below clicked for me

‘Vineeto’: … love changed into the subtler version of feeling ‘connected’ …

This “feeling ‘connected’” can have different flavours, and only what prevents you from enjoying and appreciating at this moment needs to be looked at this moment. If relying on Kuba makes you insecure then you already know how you can do something about it. It’s a matter of actualising your insight. When you sharpen your affective awareness and tend to each obstacle, each interference preventing you from being gay and naïve, then you will see how the strong “feeling ‘connected’” eventually weakens and disappears altogether. It’s often only a habitual way of being which you can change once you notice it.

Sonya: The main crux of love was largely diminished but I am still feeling connected to him. My feelings are still influenced by how he’s feeling. For a while I could say that I wasn’t in love with Kuba but there was something still there that was in the way of experiencing him directly without tinted glasses and I think it’s the feeling of being connected. I am not yet standing on my own two feet and still looking to Kuba to hold my hand. (link)

You also said –

Sonya: I kinda realised that it was always like this, that ‘I’ haven’t really been making any decisions this whole time and things were just happening. It was almost like the most obvious thing ever. (20 May 2025)

You can follow the lead of your “ah ha!” moment (11 June 2025) and others which came after, easing the control bit by bit, and then things start falling in place of their own, in line with your intent/ commitment “to live life with you in the most fun, exciting, wholesome, fulfilling way” (16 April 2025).

Sonya: I’d like to say that I also feel like such a fraud being in very feminine spaces and not believing in love, it does feel a little lonely at times but I also know I can’t go back to believing in it after seeing it for what it is. (link)

That’s excellent that you know you can’t go back, and the original unfamiliarity will soon pass because you are discovering something better than “believing in love”. You can explore more and more being vitally interested, appreciate, enjoy the other’s company, be fascinated of what he or you are saying next, doing next … and explore more and more intimacy free from the burden of love. And have fun (love is really a very serious business).

Sonya: For me it was seeing what someone was like when they were in love, and how someone who cared for me but wasn’t in love with me behaved. For the latter, we were both still living our own lives but didn’t fall into the typical ‘roles’ which meant less expectations and less resentment. In fact, there was just more caring and less control, manipulation. I think originally there was still some scepticism into exploring what a partnership will be like without love but I can say experientially it’s the way to go. I also had to keep in mind that we weren’t just eliminating love but replacing it with something better and care and appreciation had to be at the forefront. (link)

For someone who says she feels “a little lonely” for “not believing in love” you are quite eloquent in how many benefits the alternative way of relating has. Who knows, you might even infect others with stories of making a success of your partnership.

Cheers Vineeto

[Vineeto]

Scout to Sonya: really interesting to hear that the two of you are happily married without sharing the typical bond of “romantic love”. it’s also not an experience i’ve had fully mutually, and like you said it’s very dominant in the feminine narrative, so i was spoon-fed this notion that it’s the greatest thing i can possibly experience. i don’t know if it’s something i feel fully ready to move past because it’s not something i’ve seen and experienced clearly for myself yet, i’m still curious (though i am currently in an about-to-end relationship where i am seeing its uglier face). but it’s fascinating to hear about your experience of partnership without it. (link)

Hi Scout,

As you so rightly said, love is “very dominant in the feminine narrative” with the emphasis on “narrative”. It’s a fairy tale, supported by the feeling of love itself (when you fall in love) that if only you find the right man happiness is guaranteed for the rest of your life.

Feeling being ‘Vineeto’ first had to examine this narrative in herself when she found out, yet again, that love had its downsides. ‘She’ knew that from previous relationships but this one, with Peter, was supposed to be working properly. Here is ‘her’ report how ‘she’ overcame the first major obstacle –

‘Vineeto’: My traditional response to the feeling of being trapped had been that the man should give me his love and reassurance. But the way to the intimacy that I had already experienced and wanted to have with Peter all the time, was that I had to question, examine and eliminate the notorious bunch of feelings called love. Peter’s description of our adventure into freedom and intimacy is certainly not just a male point of view. Did he love me enough or not, or did I love him enough or not, was not the question – I discovered that love was not the solution but the problem itself!
The answer again lay 180 degrees in the opposite direction to what I had come to know up to now. I had expected or assumed someone was to love my ‘grotty self’, when even I could not stand those parts of me! A person who ‘loves me’ is supposed to accept all those ‘quirks of my personality’, which no intelligent human being would be able to put up with without blind nature’s intoxication known as ‘being in love’. And for years I had tried the same with the men I had ‘loved’, without success or happiness, let alone lasting intimacy. Intimacy can only happen when there is no emotion, no feeling or projection in the way between us. So, one of the first things that we discovered to be in the way of actual intimacy were the feelings of love – that sweet syrup that was usually poured over the spiky, malicious, miserable ‘self’, which I was most of the time!
One thing that I particularly didn’t like about falling in love was the pining. Whenever I was not with Peter I felt I was tied to him on a long elastic cord and not able to fully enjoy whatever I was doing by myself. Digging into what could be the reason for my pining, I discovered what I call the ‘Cinderella-syndrome’ – the romantic dream that most women have about the perfect and noble man. We are not only looking for someone who takes care of us when our own strength fails us, but also for someone who gives perspective, meaning, definition and identity to our lives, be it as father of our kids, provider of social status, security or a purpose for life. According to this dream Peter should be the answer to the question which I wasn’t willing to face myself: ‘What do I really want to do with my life?’
I remember a Monday evening after a weekend together, and I had been pining the whole day. I had not enjoyed work as I found myself struggling to get out of this exhausting dependency. Here I was, 44 years old and as silly as a teenager! After work I took a long walk across rolling hills into a spectacular sunset, trying to work out what I wanted to do with my life.
In the end, I had to admit that, whatever it was, it had not the slightest thing to do with anything that Peter could do for me. I wanted to be perfect and I had to do it myself. I still had to clean myself up. Just having found a probable good mate had nothing to do with the fact that I wasn’t the best I could be; that I wasn’t free. I decided there and then to face the challenge, to abandon the love-dream and go for the actual experience – meeting another human being as intimately as possible instead of looking up to him and waiting for him to be the ‘hero of my dreams’.
That very evening the situation changed. My pining stopped. The fog in the head cleared. My expectations disappeared. I could again stand on my own feet and equally enjoy the time when I was by myself. I had recovered my autonomy – my autonomy in the sense that I am the only one in my life who is responsible for my happiness. (Actualism, Vineeto, A Bit of Vineeto)

There was more to come but perhaps this report appeals to you as a way of exploring why you at present don’t “feel fully ready to move past” love.

Of course, to experience the benefits “of partnership without” love, love itself needs to move aside to make room for something superior to the ups and downs of love. You can utilise your present scepticism about love’s success to explore how those dreams you were “spoon-fed” are just that, dreams that never come true.

Then an appreciation, a curiosity, a naïve fascination can emerge what else is possible between a man and a woman, and consideration and interested attention have room to come to the fore. As Sonya said –

Sonya: I also had to keep in mind that we weren’t just eliminating love but replacing it with something better and care and appreciation had to be at the forefront. (link)

You can also check out Article Two of Richard’s Journal, page 24 to find out what else is possible, and how.

Cheers Vineeto

[Sonyaxx]

Hi Vineeto,

@Vineeto

This “feeling ‘connected’” can have different flavours, and only what prevents you from enjoying and appreciating at this moment needs to be looked at this moment. If relying on Kuba makes you insecure then you already know how you can do something about it.

Yes, I think this is the nurture aspect coming in for me. I still feel nurturing to Kuba, if he is happy then I am happy, if he is upset, ill be upset (luckily he is very rarely upset nowadays ) and I tend to lean more towards doing things that make him happy first. Of course, I enjoy cooking/ baking foods that he likes or giving him a pedicure/manicure and that doesn’t have to stop but it’s the feeling of nurturing him thats the issue. Haha I see it a bit more now, it’s very onesided. On my side, im playing the nurturing game, ‘takeing care’ of him etc. On his side hes just enjoying some warm brownies and nice cuticles . And I am holding on to this feeling of connection and being connected so I can still play the nurture game!

@Vineeto

For someone who says she feels “a little lonely” for “not believing in love” you are quite eloquent in how many benefits the alternative way of relating has. Who knows, you might even infect others with stories of making a success of your partnership.

I think it’s more in relation with other women and leaving the sisterhood behind, I sometimes feel like my friends are speaking a different language and I sometimes feel sad or awkard I can’t join in on the conversation. There’s a fear that I won’t be fun or interesting anymore. That now with love largely out the picture there is less drama in my life. I can’t complain or get angry alongside them. How odd that despite all the good things that have come out of not prioritising love I am still sad to leave it behind and not participate in the dramas that come with it.

[scout]

I remember reading this part of your writings with great fascination, thank you for sharing it again!

@Vineeto

According to this dream Peter should be the answer to the question which I wasn’t willing to face myself: ‘What do I really want to do with my life?’

This is the crux of it, perfectly distilled. I want someone else to figure out how to make me happy. I’ve tried so many different things but I always struggle and they always fail eventually and I feel dissatisfied, and I soothe this dissatisfaction with the fantasy that the right person will solve this problem for me, rather than me figuring out how to be my own fount of happiness.