Vineeto: I was wondering if you are entirely comfortable yet that an actual freedom is irrevocable.
I am asking because on January 4 2010, in a casual conversation, Richard asked ‘Vineeto’ if it was perhaps the irrevocability of an actual freedom which caused ‘her’ to hesitate. ‘Her’ first impulse was to answer “of course not” but then ‘she’ decided to mull it over carefully so that ‘she’ could be 100% sure. The next evening ‘she’ became actually free. [link]
Claudiu: This has been excellent to contemplate! Indeed my initial reaction was the same as yours, like “I actually want it to be irrevocable”, but as I contemplated it I saw that this was not fully the case.
It really feels like there’s a lot going on, and even being unmoored at times. It’s hard to sum it up or organize it into a coherent post. But it’s along the lines of…
I realized that I do not have a choice – if I want to self-immolate then I will have to address this issue, the irrevocability – along with any other issue. This was remarkable at orienting me towards actually moving forward and making progress with the objection.
Just the act of contemplating the irrevocability caused actuality to hove into nearly tangible view, almost like I can touch it. The world becomes still again and I am moving through this still, wondrous universe – albeit not a PCE as ‘I’ distinctly felt ‘myself’ still present.
Hi Claudiu,
Thank you for your detailed response on this crucial issue. This point is important – the fact that you were not in a PCE meant that your experience was not static but dynamic. ‘You’ could keep contemplating ‘your’ objection to irrevocably disappear “in this still, wondrous universe”.
Claudiu: Nevertheless it was along the lines of – irrevocable would mean it is this, forever – it was eminently obvious that this was sensible and what I wanted!
You have made this decision before on the basis that it is the “sensible” thing to do, i.e. you considered it rationally, and yet it has not happened. Something else is required. Being sensible is not all of you. As ‘you’ are your feelings and your feelings are ‘you’ – it appears that your feelings, or some of your feelings are objecting. Thinking sensibly will not give you the “enormous energy” required to make an altruistic sacrifice.
Richard: No, I am more making the point that only altruism – self-sacrificial humanitarianism – will provide the enormous energy necessary for ‘self’-immolation … the instinct for individual survival is only exceeded by the instinct for group survival.
It takes a powerful instinct to overcome a powerful instinct. (Richard, List B, James3, 28 Oct 2002a)
You can make use of the feeling which is presently happening – fear of making a definite, irrevocable, irreversible choice, the fear of ultimate commitment, the fear of not having control of what is going to happen next. The vital ingredient to look closely at the fear itself is to stay with the thrill –
Richard: As the feeling of being cornered is where one is at now then that is where one starts from: as you say that ‘a feeling of fear’ has emerged this is a vital opportunity to look closely at the fear itself (while it is happening) and it will be seen that there are two aspects to fear … the frightening aspect and the thrilling aspect.
Usually the frightening aspect dominates and obscures the thrilling aspect: shifting one’s attention to the thrilling aspect (I often said jokingly that it is down at the bottom left-hand side) will increase the thrill and decrease the fright as the energy of fear shifts its focus and changes into a higher gear … and, as courage is sourced in the thrilling part of fear, the daring to proceed will intensify of its own accord.
But stay with the thrill, by being the thrill, else the fright takes over, daring dissipates, and back out of the corner you come. (Richard, List B, James3, 7 Nov 2002).
Claudiu: There is certainly a push and pull of attraction and aversion here, which I think is what you would call being “fatally attracted” (although “Fatal Attraction Syndrome” appears to be different as that would entail things like “incessant fighting against the benefits of an actual freedom” [link]?)
Ha, being “fatally attracted” only means you can’t leave it alone, and some people have/had so many objections that they never followed their attraction and only acted on their passionate aversion fuelled by the attraction.
Claudiu: The seeing I have no choice but to proceed helped overcome the aversion into looking into the irrevocability more. And then the attraction/ aversion sort of flipped and I instead became feeling averse to not self-immolating, to going ‘back’ to ‘humanity’ and failing ‘for good’. I experience this as sort of a fear or anxiety about moving forward, that flipped into a fear or anxiety about moving back.
Ok, but what can flip once, can flip again. What remained is the feeling of “fear or anxiety”. You reported three days ago –
Claudiu: … and then a most wondrous realization struck, that: I don’t have to be afraid anymore either! Fear is how ‘I’ manifest in order to protect this body. Yet I am not needed to protect this body anymore. This is yet another burden I can lay down!
This relief was felt to be tremendous and I couldn’t even process it all at once. So I kept reflecting and contemplating it and the ramifications of the relief I am still processing. I don’t have to feel fear or be afraid anymore! What a tremendous relief. This fear which I have felt/been my entire life, and caused such problems and discomfort, and has not been fun at all – I can leave it behind just like anything else! (link)
What happened? Obviously not all of your fear had disappeared, or only temporarily. The burden you laid down three days ago has re-appeared. Now, you seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place – afraid to leave the real world behind irrevocably and afraid to continue living in the real world permanently. You can’t have both, that fact is clear.
Claudiu: Somewhere around here I figured I have been taking this too ‘seriously’. I don’t have to become free – this is not a moral imperative. There’s no need to be ‘serious’ about it in that sense. This loosens the pressure quite a bit – but it is sensible to become free, it is what I actually want, and in that sense there is no choice, there is a ‘must’ to it, but this ‘must’ comes from the scintillating purity that hoves into view, which I experienced at times today like ‘fingers’ of purity beckoning me towards actuality.
So maybe I take it too seriously rather than fun/naively.
Again I realized I don’t actually have to worry about anything, literally anything at all… but, rather than the immediate response to do this being a carefreeness or even a relief, it was, intriguingly, an anxiety! A feeling unmoored about it. Because I also saw that to not worry means I don’t have to feel or put energy into any of ‘my’ plans or the future… which had it sink in that all of ‘my’ hopes and dreams and plans, will disappear along with ‘me’! I have to give them all up, in other words. It didn’t quite strike me like this before, and this is what led to the unmoored feeling, I believe. However I seem to be getting accustomed to this new state of affairs as I’m feeling much better about it all now, and at this very moment generally rather filled with delight.
Along the way I also recognized that part of the impediments is that I am feeling like becoming free ‘must’ go along a certain path, or look like this or that, but really I don’t know what it will look like or what that experience of self-immolating will be like or how it will unfold for me – I only can know how it’s unfolding now – so again it’s a matter of not really worrying about it or trying to ‘fit’ experience in any way.
It appears that your going out from control was not a total giving up of the controls. You retained the control of the last emergency break, just before the crucial final decision. It is not the experience which needs ‘fitting’ “in any way”, but your intent which needs to be reignited in order to initiate the final event.
Richard: To put it bluntly: ‘you’ in ‘your’ totality, who are but a passionate illusion, must die a dramatic illusory death commensurate to ‘your’ pernicious existence. The drama must be played out to the end … there are no short-cuts here. The doorway to an actual freedom has the word ‘extinction’ written on it. This extinction is irrevocable, which eliminates the psyche itself. When this is all over there will be no ‘being’ at all. Thus when ‘I’ willingly self-immolate – psychologically and psychically – then ‘I’ am making the most noble sacrifice that ‘I’ can make for oneself and all humankind … for ‘I’ am what ‘I’ hold most dear. (Richard, List B, No. 13, 26 May 1999)
Claudiu: The sensible mooring-point would be pure intent, this is something that ought to be stable, perennial, etc., and fit all the qualities of that which I can orient myself towards, as a guiding star or light, if ever I feel lost.
So that’s basically where I’m at now. I am tending to hove towards a default somewhat anxious state, which seems like a bad sign. But there does seem to be a lot going on. Yet actuality is always rather close-by, near at hand – and contemplating everything appears to be fruitful. But I also get the sense I am overcomplicating things haha.
Am open to any advice you may have given all the above, having fun does seem to be where it is at! (link)
I give you a reminder to re-access pure intent, which always is out of reach when anxiety takes centre stage (with its “mooring point” within the human condition) –
Richard: Therefore a mortal or transitory shape or form, comprised of immortal or perpetual stuff, can indeed ‘know that which is immortal’, or, as I have said before, as this flesh and blood body only (which means sans ‘I’ as ego and ‘me’ as soul) I am this universe experiencing itself as an apperceptive human being: as such the universe is stunningly aware of its own infinitude. And if you gaze deeply into the inky darkness betwixt the stars you will be standing naked before infinitude. (Richard in ‘Burnt Toast’ to Rick, Claudiu, 24 April 2024).
Claudiu: I reread it and was just blown away by how immaculate and perfectly articulated Richard’s writing is. I experienced what I’ve called “Richard’s energy” while reading it – which refers to pure intent, of course. The flawlessness of what he apperceptively wrought leaves nothing but admiration and a salient desire and aim – I want to be that! [emphasis added]. (link)
Do you/did you really consider “failing ‘for good’” because of a mere feeling? You can’t be serious!
Cheers Vineeto
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(and I am currently doing my tax return lol).