Kub933's Journal

Journals
1876

Kuba: Oh and I will just add with regards to the below :

• [Richard]: “(…) back when I was a normal man I came close to the loss of self already mentioned on several occasions (in my first marriage) only to instinctively pull-back, out of instantaneous fear at such imminence, as it intuitively seemed she would thus take over my mind and make me her slave for ever and a day.
It was not until after the four-hour PCE, which initiated the process resulting in an actual freedom, that it became obvious to me what such loss of self actually meant.
Accordingly, I deliberately set out to induce a PCE via giving myself completely to her – totally and utterly – whilst hovering indefinitely on that orgastic plateau which precedes an orgasm (something which I had discovered whilst pubescent).
And then … !Hey Presto! … no separation whatsoever.
(Incidentally, rather than that intuitive fear of thus being her slave coming true it was quite instructive to have her then relate how she had been fantasising about a current heart-throb pop singer all the while I was giving myself to her totally)”. (Richard, List D, No. 6, 10 Nov 2009).

Kuba: In the past this was experienced as a severe threat, to consider allowing the above, this must be interesting for you to read, how ‘I’ make something so delightful into a threat but indeed it was scary to contemplate. The closeness and the delight of such proximity, that can be terrifying for ‘me’.

Hi Kuba,

What you say is no surprise as ‘Vineeto’ had similar feelings regarding more and more intimacy which meant being increasingly naked with less and less to hide, and this included an exploratory period after becoming basically free. And yet was so utterly delightful whenever a barrier is overcome and the bester time of my life.

Kuba: But it is not like so anymore, there is still something like a cautiousness there, but mixed in with this cautiousness there is also this possibility of something sweet to be found in that direction. (link)

That’s good to hear. Grace’s gradations may be of help (or you make your own) and usually the process is a back and forth of daring and retreating and then caring and daring again. You might find the selected correspondence on sensuousness, on sex and on intimacy informative. And Sonya said “Magical sex sounds pretty fucking cool”. (link)

Cheers Vineeto

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1877

Thank you for your replies Vineeto, I will digest them properly first but I wanted to note the below too :

I remember reading Richard’s word’s that the instinctual passions are not actual, for example there is no fear in a flower or a rock, only sentient creatures can experience fear as it is an affective phenomenon.

I always found it difficult to understand this properly, it made sense (somewhat) intellectually, and yet the instinctual passions they felt to be so overwhelming, so real, and not just for ‘me’ but for the rest of ‘humanity’ that surely they must be some genuine entity in their own right, that they had some intrinsic viability to borrow Richards words.

So the passions they would be experienced as ‘out there’ and solidly existing, part of the ‘natural order’ of things. Of course this is clearly how ‘humanity’ experiences them too, hence the beliefs in the forces of good and evil.

So from that viewpoint to proceed towards actual freedom, it would seem as if some abhorration of nature, that it would be fundamentally ‘wrong’. That one would be erasing something genuine.
Basically it was that ‘I’ believed the instinctual passions to be primary and pre-eminent, a fundamental aspect of the way the universe is.

I realise how all this sounds… It’s fun to write out the belief when it is already starting to fade, it doesn’t really make any sense! :laughing:

But fear, aggression, nurture and desire, these are not genuine things. It is the perfection and purity of infinitude which is pre-eminent, the passions are an affective creation.

This is very fun because I remember when I first got stuck into investigating the various aspects of the ‘human constitution’ I was very excited, I could see that of course ‘humanity’ is mistaken about so many things and one by one those truths were exposed.

But there was a deeper level of truth, the one bestowed by blind nature, the software programming of fear, aggression, nurture and desire and the feeling being formed thereof. The truth held by this programming seemed inviolable - I remember what you said about the chicken feed.

But this programming, whatever apparent truth it holds it is based in deception. Of course I could very quickly see that various beliefs, values, theories etc were not facts, but it is actually no different with the instinctual programming, the instinctual passions are no more factual than the various beliefs held by ‘humanity’ - it is just deception all the way through lol.

I remember during a zoom call with Geoffrey someone mentioned about one type of fear/worry being more justifiable/sensible than another and Geoffrey quickly pointed out that no fear is sensible :laughing:

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1878

It’s so great to put those various objections about actual freedom to bed… That no, one does not become an alien, zombie, antichrist etc

One becomes free from deception, from illusion and delusion, and one is finally what one actually is. This is so clearly beneficial in every regard.

But blind nature it does hold such a tenacious grip on humankind.

1879

Hi Kuba,

It’s wonderful when it all starts falling into place and all the originally puzzling mysteries finally makes sense.

In her first months of acquaintance with actualism, ‘Vineeto’ felt as if her brain was being turned upside down –

Richard: Speaking in regards to the effects any and all attempts to fit this totally new paradigm into ‘her’ existing mindset were having, ‘she’ explained the process as being … (1.) as if ‘her’ brain was being turned upside-down … and how (2.) ‘she’ was having to relearn how to think all over again. (Richard, List D, Alan, 29 Feb 2016). (The whole email is quite amusing).

Just one minor correction –

Kuba: But fear, aggression, nurture and desire, these are not genuine things. It is the perfection and purity of infinitude which is pre-eminent, the passions are an affective creation. (link)

The instinctual passions are not “an affective creation” – they are the genetically encoded source of affections, emotions and passions (and with it the imaginative/ intuitive faculty) and they are the only way sentient life could develop and thrive … until human intelligence has evolved to the point of apperception being possible, which now can render the genetically encoded instinctual passions in human beings redundant.

Cheers Vineeto

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1880

haha yes it is exactly like this, I experienced it as if looking at a painting which up until now had a stencil placed over it - those clearly defined lines of the stencil were ‘my’ frames of reference, the ‘here’ and ‘there’ the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ etc. But it is like Richard wrote about his daughter saying “the word ‘bush’ gets in the way of seeing it”, in that when those frames of reference are removed things become so wonderful.

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1881

Yes this is exactly it, in fact this changed for me a while ago, it was I guess a combination of naivete (doing it my way) and seeing that interactions can be win-win.

It was around a time I was reading a book which was talking about the differences between zero sum games and its opposite which I forgot the name of. But anyways around that time I made an offer to my brother (who owns the business I work for) which went against the usual 9-5 template and yet it was an offer which would benefit both the business and me. In that I shortened my work hours by more than half and kept only the ones when the business was actually busy, at the same time I only took a partial cut to my salary. Which meant that I had more free time and I was earning much more per hour, which was a win for me. My brother was only paying me for the times when there is work to be done and overall less than before so it was a win for him.

So it was an unusual proposal and yet it was a win-win, but it took naivete to even consider that this could be a thing.

And just now (which reminded me of this) I thought of Sonya’s friend who is an aspiring artist. I always wanted some kind of cool art/wall mural in the house but I just don’t have the money to pay an established artist for this kind of work. And again it clicked that there is a win-win situation here just ripe for the picking. That Sonya’s friend can paint the mural for us and we can pay her an amount that is do-able for us and which she will be happy with too. And on top of that she will enjoy the work and it will be a reason for her and Sonya to see each other for a few days. This is like a win-win-win :grin:

There is just no exploitation on either side with these set ups, it is just human beings operating in a mutually beneficial way, this is a wonderful way to live.

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1882

Hi, @Vineeto

Can you detail or expand on what is exactly meant by “giving oneself completely to other”? I’ve never been entirely sure I’m 100% clear on the specifics. How did that look for you in practice? Or any other input from Richard that you can give?

Thanks in advance!

1883

• [Richard]: “(…) back when I was a normal man I came close to the loss of self already mentioned on several occasions (in my first marriage) only to instinctively pull-back, out of instantaneous fear at such imminence, as it intuitively seemed she would thus take over my mind and make me her slave for ever and a day.
It was not until after the four-hour PCE, which initiated the process resulting in an actual freedom, that it became obvious to me what such loss of self actually meant.
Accordingly, I deliberately set out to induce a PCE via giving myself completely to her – totally and utterly – whilst hovering indefinitely on that orgastic plateau which precedes an orgasm (something which I had discovered whilst pubescent).
And then … !Hey Presto! … no separation whatsoever.
(Incidentally, rather than that intuitive fear of thus being her slave coming true it was quite instructive to have her then relate how she had been fantasising about a current heart-throb pop singer all the while I was giving myself to her totally)”. (Richard, List D, No. 6, 10 Nov 2009).

Felipe: Hi Vineeto,
Can you detail or expand on what is exactly meant by “giving oneself completely to other”? I’ve never been entirely sure I’m 100% clear on the specifics. How did that look for you in practice? Or any other input from Richard that you can give?
Thanks in advance! (link)

Hi Felipe,

Perhaps you missed my second-last message to Kuba two days ago, where I gave him supportive links to a similar question he had – how to give himself completely to another –

Vineeto to Kuba: You might find the selected correspondence on sensuousness, on sex and on intimacy informative. (link)

Here is an excerpt from the selected correspondence on sensuousness –

RESPONDENT (No. 6): You do not prescribe to fellow humans, but do you recommend the above sensible approach rather than ‘experimenting’ with fellow human beings to explore sexuality or actual intimacy?
RICHARD to (No. 6): Oh, no … not at all (that above approach is only in regards to an actual freedom from the human condition). No, on the contrary, exploring sex and sexuality is enormously beneficial: there is no better way, in my experience, for a man and a woman to approach such intimacy than sexual congress. For instance, back when I was a normal man I came close to the loss of self already mentioned on several occasions (in my first marriage) only to instinctively pull-back, out of instantaneous fear at such imminence, as it intuitively seemed she would thus take over my mind and make me her slave for ever and a day.
It was not until after the four-hour PCE, which initiated the process resulting in an actual freedom, that it became obvious to me what such loss of self actually meant. Accordingly, I deliberately set out to induce a PCE via giving myself completely to her – totally and utterly – whilst hovering indefinitely on that orgastic plateau which precedes an orgasm (some thing which I had discovered whilst pubescent). And then … !Hey Presto! … no separation whatsoever. (Incidentally, rather than that intuitive fear of thus being her slave coming true it was quite instructive to have her then relate how she had been fantasising about a current heart-throb pop singer all the while I was giving myself to her totally).
RESPONDENT (No. 6): I am aware that PCE and EE are much more possible during sexual intimacy and congress hence the urge to experiment.
RICHARD to (No. 6): Yes, indeed so. Both my third wife (de facto) and my second wife (de jure) were very keen to experiment. For instance, my third wife initially set out to explore her ‘wild side’ (to use the jargon) as she was most appreciative of being with a man with no limits – no limiting fear – in regards the vast extent, and a near-insatiability at times, of female sexuality. Curiously enough, in the end it was her very own fear (of female sexuality) which set the limits. But, until then rampant sexuality took place morning, noon and night – all throughout the period of writing those millions of words to my fellow human beings – and much was uncovered/ discovered about female sexuality. She has a scale of quality in regards sexual experience: good, very good, great, excellent and magical.
Good sex relates to togetherness. Very good sex relates to closeness. Great sex relates to sweetness. Excellent sex relates to richness. Magical sex relates to actuality.
To explain: togetherness is the companionship of doing things together – be it shopping, cooking, having sex, whatever – and pertains to the willingness to be and act in concert with another. A closeness is where the personal boundaries are expanded to include the other into one’s own space; this is a normal type of intimacy. A sweetness is when closeness entrées a lovely delight at the proximity of the other (although it can veer off into affection, ardency, love, oneness). A richness (aka an excellence experience) is where sweetness segues into a near-absence of agency via letting-go of control and one is the sex and sexuality (the beer and not the doer). Magical sex is where sex and sexuality are happening of their own accord – neither beer nor doer extant – and pristine purity abounds (an immaculate perfection).
Ain’t life grand! (Richard, List D, No. 6, 10 Nov 2009)
RESPONDENT: Hello Richard, Fascinating post, Can you please elaborate on: ‘(…) accordingly, I deliberately set out to induce a PCE via giving myself completely to her – totally and utterly (…)’ ? Me and my partner are currently experimenting with freeing our encumbered sexuality with little success so far and your comments might help in pointing us in the right direction.
RICHARD: G’day No. 20, [snipped] I will attend to your current request for elaboration on going about deliberately setting out to induce a PCE via giving oneself completely to one’s partner – totally and utterly – during sexual congress. As you have inadvertently snipped off a vital component I will re-quote the relevant section here in full for convenience:
• [Richard]: ‘Accordingly, I deliberately set out to induce a PCE via giving myself completely to her – totally and utterly – whilst hovering indefinitely on that orgastic plateau which precedes an orgasm (something which I had discovered whilst pubescent)’. (Richard, List D, No. 6, 10 Nov 2009)
It was only a few years ago that I found out that what I had discovered for myself, during an intensive masturbatory period from pubescence (12 years old) to my first wedding night (19 years old), had both names and descriptions … to wit (unromantic) titles such as ‘edging’, ‘coitus reservatus’, ‘orgasmic brinkmanship’, ‘peaking’, ‘surfing’ (and even ‘male continence’ and ‘coitus sine ejaculatione seminis’).
Here are a couple of examples: Entertainment; http://tinyurl.com/sexual-edging. (Incidentally, once I had regular access to the real thing – a willing hetero-sexual partner as randy as myself – that mono-sexual practice discovered while pubescent, being devoid as it is of intimacy with a fellow human being, rapidly faded away into a vague memory where it languished unrecalled, for around 14 years, until being resurrected for the purpose of giving myself completely, totally and utterly to my first wife).
Now, to explain hovering indefinitely on that orgastic plateau which precedes an orgasm it may be of assistance to present it graphically: as an orgasm requires building up to a peak of sexual excitation, before tipping over the other side for a glorious slide down the slope on that other side of the mountain, it can be represented by an upside down ‘V’.
As the aim is to prolong that exquisite moment prior to tipping over the other side it requires a slight pulling-back downwards, of sexual excitation when an orgasm is imminent; within seconds, once the sexual excitation stabilises, it can be intensified once more; again, upon an orgasm being imminent, another slight pulling-back downwards, of sexual excitation is required; and once that sexual excitation stabilises, it too can be intensified once more … and so on and so on and so on. What will happen, upon much delicious practice – ain’t life grand! – is that the slight pulling-back downwards, of sexual excitation when the orgasm is once again imminent, becomes both easier and easier and less and less downwards; eventually there can be an easing back-and-forth, at the moment just prior to the orgasm’s imminence, along an ever-increasingly lengthening plateau at the peak; this can be represented by that upside down ‘V’ having a flat-line where there was once only an apex.
Again with much delicious practice – my word life is indeed grand! – that flat-line peak can be lengthened indefinitely as the need to pull-back downwards decreases with experience; eventually there is the aforementioned hovering indefinitely on that orgastic plateau which precedes an orgasm with but the slightest increase/ decrease in sexual excitation; at this stage the upside down ‘V’ with the flat-line plateau – where there was once only an apex – can be representative by that flat-line plateau disappearing off either side of this page (with no sloping sides at either end to represent the slope both up to and down from that indefinitely prolonged peaking plateau).
Please note that this disappearance of the slopes is vital as the aim is for there to be only that plateau and neither climbing up nor sliding down ever happens; there is only the hovering indefinitely on that orgastic plateau when all else drops away. Once this is established the sex takes care of itself and full attention can be paid to intimacy; with much delicious practice – oh how grand life is! – the attainment of that endlessly orgastic plateau can be obtained within 60-90 seconds after penile penetration (provided there be sufficient sexual stimulation just prior such as the oh-so-delicious soixante-neuf – which perfect arrangement of face-to-genital distancing almost makes one think those credulous persons believing in an ‘Intelligent Designer’ may have a point after all – as there cannot possibly be a more delightful way to prepare for hours of orgastic hovering whilst intimacy unfolds in all its luscious wonder).
Now, the way to have intimacy unfold, in all its luscious wonder, is to be aware all the while (with that unique human ability to be conscious of being sentient) that your sexual partner likes being with you so much that they are willing to spend their most valuable asset – their time – not only being with you but having you inside them/ having them inside you (dependent upon gender) for this most physically intimate way of associating possible.
In other words one is always aware, with that second-level awareness, all the while primary consciousness is sexually engrossed, just how precious this opportunity is as – out of all 3.0 billion women/ out of all 3.0 billion men (dependent upon gender) – this fellow human being has chosen you, and only you, to be so intimately entwined with. In short: having sex/ being intimate with her/ with him (dependent upon gender) is very special – so special as to be precious – and this very preciosity readily enables giving oneself completely to one’s partner – totally and utterly – during sexual congress.
All this while the hands, fingers, lips, tongue and eyes can roam all about with much delicious kissing, nibbling, nuzzling, fondling, smelling, listening, tasting, touching, looking and all the rest which such a physical embrace, such physical proximity so exquisitely provides for; the neck below the ear-lobe, for instance, is an especial delight and to eventually indulge in never-ending open-mouthed kissing – at the heights of sexual arousal – is to be breathing each other’s breath in a most personal way of gradually depriving the brain of oxygen as to even further increase both arousal and intimate contact (togetherness, closeness, sweetness, richness, actuality).
(Meanwhile, back at the sex taking care of itself, that hovering indefinitely on the orgastic plateau has catapulted one into what I chose to call a sexual world: another dimension, as it were, where sex and sexuality is virtually dripping off the walls; a sexual dimension where all you are is an enormous penis/ an enormous vagina (dependent upon gender) which has grown legs and feet to walk to food and drink sources to sustain itself/ yourself, and arms and hands to assist in that process, so as to have yet more and more of what it/ you is/ are here for at this particular moment (endless effortless sexual congress); a rampant sexual dimension where all other people and things have receded into the background; a dripping-with- sex-and-sexuality dimension where there is only this beginningless and endless moment where you both cannot ever possibly have enough of each other; a consummately durationless moment where all there is is you and her/ you and him (dependent upon gender) hovering on that endlessly orgastic plateau of supreme sexuality and intimacy).
And then … !Hey Presto! … no separation whatsoever. [Emphasis added]. (Richard, List D, No. 20, 9 Dec 2009).

The follow-up correspondence explains it further.

Cheers Vineeto

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1884

Even as a child I was always very sensitive to unfairness, injustice and hypocrisy, observing the world I always felt very indignant about these, there was a burning compulsion to ‘right the wrongs’. Especially hypocrisy, this one I could not accept, how people were blind to the completely contradictory values which exist in the real world, how cunning is a way of life in reality.

It seems ‘I’ still want to be a knight on a crusade rather than to allow actual innocence. That how could ‘I’ allow actual magnanimity when there is so much hypocrisy that will go unanswered (unpunished is probably what I mean).

So ‘I’ want to ‘bite’ in order to ‘right the wrongs’, and there is none of that compulsion where pure intent is. It seems unfair, unjust etc to allow that. In short it seems it is ‘my’ sense of justice which objects to the actual innocence and actual magnanimity of pure intent.

For example just now picking up a phone from a customer, the customer misunderstood something I explained about the way the refund process works and in a split second I became an enemy, which justified an immediately aggressive response from him. As soon as I explained it further we were apparently friends again, with him wishing me a good day. Now I now his well wishes at the end of that call stand for nothing, for he would be ready to turn me back to the enemy in another split second… And this is normal.

1885

Actually I am not sure if it is the desire to punish but rather ‘my’ fear of being attacked, because in the real world one is ‘attacked’ sooner or later and there is no escape from this. It would be a rather simple solution for those ‘attacks’ to simply have no target to land at. Then there can be actual innocence and actual magnanimity, no need for justice or to retain ‘my’ weapons so that ‘I’ can protect ‘myself’.

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1886

This quote from Richard has been on my mind, indeed it describes the situation well for ‘me’. I remember what ‘I’ was like 10 years ago and ‘I’ would have given anything to experience life in the manner that ‘I’ do now.

And yet ‘I’ know that it is still second best, the thing is the first place is not for ‘me’! :smile: So it is that either ‘I’ would continue to live the second best or ‘I’ give up all of ‘myself’ so that this body, that body and everybody can live the first place. It’s not ‘me’ giving up second place so that ‘I’ can have the first place, rather it is ‘me’ giving up the best that ‘I’ can have for something infinitely better for this body, that body and everybody.

And it is odd that ‘I’ know that ‘I’ will do that exactly, as Richard wrote “Is it an admixture of pride and dignity, perhaps?” - After-all ‘I’ did set off on this adventure in order to go all the way, and furthermore how could ‘I’ ever settle for ‘my’ second best when ‘I’ know something so much better is available, just not for ‘me’ haha.

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1887

I have been quite fascinated by altruism, first of all that Richard worked out that this is the answer, without any precedent - this I have a constantly growing amazement for. Richard did write that the human condition is weird and so coming out of it is weird, and indeed who would have thought that this is the way to do it. Now we have the benefit of knowing with confidence that indeed it is the way out of the human condition, there is a clear target.

I can see that altruism has nothing to do with morality, it is not good/bad, it is an instinctive action. It is not that ‘I’ am ‘being’ altruistic but rather that altruism is triggered in the moment, sacrificing ‘myself’ for others, and that as a ‘self’ ‘I’ am already programmed to do this. It makes complete sense that this is required in order to override the otherwise all-encompassing drive of selfism.

Furthermore I can see that altruism is not actual, it is as real as anything else of ‘mine’.
It is quite odd on one hand seeing that ‘my’ existence is nothing but an instinctual drama and yet on the other hand understanding that this drama must play out until it’s conclusion. But knowing that it is a drama brings a certain safety to it all - it seems this is why the waters are nowadays calm and smooth. Because ‘I’ understand that in actuality all is well, in fact I often experience these glimpses of the world outside of ‘me’ - and indeed all is well, none of ‘my’ dramas exists there at all, and I mean not even the tiniest fraction.

So I have been fascinated that there is this capacity which ‘I’ have, an aspect of the programming bestowed by blind nature which can be utilised in order to end the human condition. And that this aspect of the programming does not require any learning or cultivating or anything like that, it requires the correct situation in order to be triggered. And I don’t mean that ‘I’ passively sit back and wait for something to happen. Rather I mean that the gun is already loaded and the finger is on the trigger, it’s all set to go in other words (this is not in reference to any “special psychic gun” btw, just that ‘I’ am already capable of altruism by nature of being a ‘self’).

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1888

Alan: Was this not enough? Was it not better to enjoy this life as ‘Alan’, the personality, than risk all on an unknown future?
Richard: I can recall the ‘Richard’ that was considering this very question … yet ‘he’ just knew that ‘he’ would not be able to look in the mirror of a morning if ‘he’ did not proceed. Is it an admixture of pride and dignity, perhaps?

Kuba: This quote from Richard has been on my mind, indeed it describes the situation well for ‘me’. I remember what ‘I’ was like 10 years ago and ‘I’ would have given anything to experience life in the manner that ‘I’ do now.
And yet ‘I’ know that it is still second best, the thing is the first place is not for ‘me’! So it is that either ‘I’ would continue to live the second best or ‘I’ give up all of ‘myself’ so that this body, that body and everybody can live the first place. It’s not ‘me’ giving up second place so that ‘I’ can have the first place, rather it is ‘me’ giving up the best that ‘I’ can have for something infinitely better for this body, that body and everybody.

Hi Kuba,

The fascinating aspect of your observation when comparing your life today with what it was ten years ago, is that without wanting to go all the way you wouldn’t be how you are today (as you say yourself further below). The pure intent garnered from your PCEs was part and parcel of your journey.

It may be different for everyone how they choose to live their lives but feeling being ‘Vineeto’ always knew that virtual freedom, both before and after being out-from-control, was a precarious stage and could be lost any time if/ when pure intent was lost. So even in those periods when ‘Vineeto’ was ‘running away’, procrastinating or feeling stuck, there was one grim determination that made ‘her’ persist and that was “don’t do a Devika”, i.e. don’t ever turn away completely. Devika, when transmogrifying into Irene gave ‘her’ an excellent demonstration of what not to do. It all helped to finally leave my ‘self’ behind.

Kuba: And it is odd that ‘I’ know that ‘I’ will do that exactly, as Richard wrote “Is it an admixture of pride and dignity, perhaps?” – After-all ‘I’ did set off on this adventure in order to go all the way, and furthermore how could ‘I’ ever settle for ‘my’ second best when ‘I’ know something so much better is available, just not for ‘me’ haha. (link)

Indeed, and it’s more than “an admixture of pride and dignity” in ‘Vineeto’s’ experience, it is also the pure intent, even when temporary dormant. It can be resurrected any time you ask for it. After all, the beneficence and benevolence of the actual universe itself is right here now the moment you direct your attention to it.

Kuba: So I have been fascinated that there is this capacity which ‘I’ have, an aspect of the programming bestowed by blind nature which can be utilised in order to end the human condition. And that this aspect of the programming does not require any learning or cultivating or anything like that, it requires the correct situation in order to be triggered. And I don’t mean that ‘I’ passively sit back and wait for something to happen. Rather I mean that the gun is already loaded and the finger is on the trigger, it’s all set to go in other words (this is not in reference to any “special psychic gun” btw, just that ‘I’ am already capable of altruism by nature of being a ‘self’). (link)

Instead of thinking about altruism as a programming or a “psychic gun” (i.e. conceptually), there is an easier way to approach it experientially – you can become aware of such situations whenever you have a choice of being less self-centric than you would habitually be, simply because it feels good. Being less ‘self’-centric is the natural consequence of more and more naïve enjoyment and appreciation. Increasing kindness, generosity, magnanimity, bonhomie, friendliness and consideration will noticeably decrease being concerned about ‘me’ and ‘my’ problems, and appreciation, marvel and wonderment widen the outlook and horizon about all the magnificent happening beyond ‘my’ own narrow horizon – and a magical fairy-tale-like world becomes more and more apparent.

Cheers Vineeto

4 Likes
1889

Hi Vineeto,

Yes I can 100% remember those kind of instances, in fact I was thinking about this yesterday, that the good/bad feelings are identity enhancing, whereas in the direction of felicity and innocuity ‘I’ as ‘self’ become more and more… irrelevant? it’s like the good/bad feelings draw a deeper and harder boundary to ‘me’ as ‘self’, whereas with those felicitous feelings ‘I’ am almost as if slowly being rubbed out, of course never quite but it can lead to a marked diminishment in that feeling of separation.

So yes I can experience times when ‘I’ am being far less ‘self’-centric and it is always wonderful when it happens. But is this altruism? Or is your point that it can lead to where altruism can be activated?

It seems that those times when ‘I’ am being less ‘self’-centric the weight of ‘me’ it is not that heavy at all, all the way to the times when it seems like ‘I’ could go at any moment and it would be no biggie at all in that sense. I have experienced that many times in the past year and all-round more consistently too. But that is not altruism yet is it?

So I seem to be a little confused here… Richard has written that altruism sets in motion a process which leads to ‘my’ self-immolation and you have written to me that once altruism is activated it can be all over in an instant.

Is it that as ‘I’ become less and less ‘self’-centric as an ongoing modus operandi that ‘I’ invite a situation where altruism is activated and ‘I’ am extirpated OR is it that “keeping the window open” of this ongoing progression into being less and less ‘self’-centric is altruism in operation, that this is the process which will lead to ‘my’ demise?

Also is it possible to altruistically set the process in motion and then to obstruct it from completion? Furthermore is that what I have been doing by magically finding another ‘problem’ each time?

1890

Kuba: Yes I can 100% remember those kind of instances, in fact I was thinking about this yesterday, that the good/bad feelings are identity enhancing, whereas in the direction of felicity and innocuity ‘I’ as ‘self’ become more and more… irrelevant? it’s like the good/bad feelings draw a deeper and harder boundary to ‘me’ as ‘self’, whereas with those felicitous feelings ‘I’ am almost as if slowly being rubbed out, of course never quite but it can lead to a marked diminishment in that feeling of separation.
So yes I can experience times when ‘I’ am being far less ‘self’-centric and it is always wonderful when it happens. But is this altruism? Or is your point that it can lead to where altruism can be activated? (link)

Hi Kuba,

Softening the boundaries of ‘me’ allows you to consider everyone, who is not ‘me’, else why even contemplate an altruistic act.

Remember the long correspondence Richard had with Srinath regarding real-world compassionate/ non-compassionate caring and near-actual caring, which I recently recommended to you?

• [Vineeto]: “The key component for both of us had been caring, a caring as close to an actual caring as an identity can muster. […] my caring for him meant whittling away my identity as much as possible in order to give him (and me) the intimacy we both yearned for”. [emphases added]. (Direct Route, James, 17 Jan 2010).
• [Vineeto]: “I sat in this group, as one of many, and my sole interest was that everyone present (including me as one of those present) enjoyed themselves/ obtained the maximum benefit from our meeting”. [emphasis added]. (Direct Route, James, 16 Jan 2010).

Richard: Thus the “caring as close to an actual caring as an identity can muster” that Vineeto wrote about (as quoted by Claudiu much further above) – which appears to have become known as a ‘near-actual caring’ these days – is self-evidently a caring which prioritises an actual happiness over an affective happiness any day of the week (else it be a gussied up real-world caring masquerading as a caring which is as close to an actual caring as an identity can muster). (Richard, List D, Srinath2, 28 July 2016)

Perhaps a refreshing of this – and the follow up – correspondence on that page is helpful for you to recognize the correlation of being harmless, considerate, kind, gentle, generous, magnanimous, friendly, and therefore less ‘self’-centric and self-absorbed, and thus able to, and interested in, an increasing caring and inter-personal intimacy to the point of an acutely-empathic caring (equivalent to a near-actual-caring), which for ‘Vineeto’ motivated ‘her’ altruistic action.

Perhaps it’s also worth emphasising that being out-from-control is epitomized by a complete absence of self-centredness –

Richard: 3. Due to ‘her’ naïve intent to be as intimate and without prejudice as possible – which, in conjunction with the absence of self-centredness/ self-centricity that is part-and-parcel of being out-from-control had resulted in the actualism method segueing into the actualism process – ‘her’ cheerful and thus willing concurrence allowed pure intent to dynamically pull ‘her’ evermore unto ‘her’ destiny. (Hence the “dynamic, destinal virtual freedom” nomenclature). [Emphasis added]. (Richard, List D, Srinath2, 13 Aug 2016)

Point 4, 5 and 6 in this correspondence should complete the understanding for you how it is all related (if possibly without becoming a concept). :blush:

Kuba: So I seem to be a little confused here… Richard has written that altruism sets in motion a process which leads to ‘my’ self-immolation and you have written to me that once altruism is activated it can be all over in an instant.
Is it that as ‘I’ become less and less ‘self’-centric as an ongoing modus operandi that ‘I’ invite a situation where altruism is activated and ‘I’ am extirpated OR is it that “keeping the window open” of this ongoing progression into being less and less ‘self’-centric is altruism in operation, that this is the process which will lead to ‘my’ demise?

Being “less and less ‘self’-centric” is not altruism, it is thinning out the dominance of ‘me’ in order to allow the universe to live me. Altruism is a single act which leads to ‘my’ demise. ‘Vineeto’ didn’t even think about altruism at the end, it just happened when all fell into place.

Or to put it another way, you can’t think your way out of existence.

There is no either-or, the only process is as Geoffrey put it so brilliantly –

Geoffrey: When one knows what it is one wants, and when one knows what it is one must sacrifice, then only the sensible action remains. (link)

I simply suggested an experiential approach the way ‘Vineeto’ experienced and utilized it.

Kuba: Also is it possible to altruistically set the process in motion and then to obstruct it from completion? Furthermore is that what I have been doing by magically finding another ‘problem’ each time?

Yes, having read all of what you have written so far, this is entirely possible.

But then again, dealing with your objection to physical death one day, and giving up your dream of your soul’s immortality was certainly a necessary beneficial process.

Cheers Vineeto

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Hi Vineeto,

Thank you for your reply :

Richard: Thus the “caring as close to an actual caring as an identity can muster” that Vineeto wrote about (as quoted by Claudiu much further above) – which appears to have become known as a ‘near-actual caring’ these days – is self-evidently a caring which prioritises an actual happiness over an affective happiness any day of the week

I don’t remember seeing it described this way in the past but I can very much experientially relate to this, in fact it clicks completely now. I am very glad I have read this because this is the kind of caring which I have experienced.

In fact it’s a caring which comes easier to me than caring for an affective happiness, because it side steps that mine-field I wrote about the other day.

I will have a read of that correspondence you included as I don’t think I have ever read it.

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I remember one clear example of such near-actual caring which I wrote about at the time. It was when I looked at a picture of me and Sonya and realised that those two flesh and blood humans in the picture never actually meet, and that the gulf created by ‘me’ can never be crossed.
It was odd seeing us in picture, seemingly happy and yet knowing that whatever affective happiness ‘we’ might share will never be the same as actually meeting the other for the first time, that this was far more precious. So this was it, the seeing that an actual happiness for the flesh and blood humans is far more precious than any affective happiness that ‘I’ might have.

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So I woke up pretty excited about this new thing to explore - actual intimacy. It clicked yesterday that essentially I conflated an emotional intimacy with actual intimacy and then wrongly thought that to get close to the other meant to wade into the waters of emotional intimacy. So whatever resistance I had towards getting close to the other, it was based in a misunderstanding.

I have re-memorated the flavour of actual intimacy, a direct experiencing of the other. In short there is nothing that could go wrong there!

And it is a delicious thing, to experience the actuality of the other, that they are here now as a flesh and blood body.

Now I am genuinely excited at this possibility, to experience the other directly.

There is this rather cliche sign that hangs upon entrances to various martial arts academies - “Leave your ego at the door”, the door to actual intimacy has a similar sign but it reads - “Leave ‘your’ self at the door”.

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Kuba: So I woke up pretty excited about this new thing to explore – actual intimacy. It clicked yesterday that essentially I conflated an emotional intimacy with actual intimacy and then wrongly thought that to get close to the other meant to wade into the waters of emotional intimacy. So whatever resistance I had towards getting close to the other, it was based in a misunderstanding.
I have re-memorated the flavour of actual intimacy, a direct experiencing of the other. In short there is nothing that could go wrong there!
And it is a delicious thing, to experience the actuality of the other, that they are here now as a flesh and blood body.
Now I am genuinely excited at this possibility, to experience the other directly.
There is this rather cliche sign that hangs upon entrances to various martial arts academies – “Leave your ego at the door”, the door to actual intimacy has a similar sign but it reads – “Leave ‘your’ self at the door”. (link)

Hi Kuba,

This is splendid. It is indeed a delicious enterprise to experientially explore with eventually having nothing to hide – where you can allow the universe to live you more and more and let the felicitous and innocuous feelings (kindness, gentleness, consideration, friendliness, appreciation and wonder, to name but a few) flourish. Remember, you cannot avoid feelings as long as you are a feeling being – you can only channel all occurring feelings into felicitous and innocuous feelings.

Here is what Richard means by ‘naked’ –

[Richard]: By the word naked I do not necessarily mean ‘no clothes’ but, rather, much more than being merely nude; I mean having nothing to hide and everything openly on display for all to see (by those capable of having both eyes open that is) before embarking on an idyllic voyage through paradise … (Announcement1, Tooltip after “naked crew”)

Cheers Vineeto

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Hi Vineeto,

Thank you for your reply, I had quite a day yesterday! It is all clicking into place. I will start with the weird one…

You wrote to me a while ago that upon actual freedom one sees that there has been an existential joke there all along, in that ‘I’ never existed in the first place.

I was driving yesterday and all the while intensely focused on discovering what it means to be actually intimate. There is something that Srinath wrote shortly after becoming free which I read the other day, this I had in my mind and was fascinated by it :

Srinath: I feel like my brain has been ‘uncapped’ and the magnificent universe – as oppose to ‘self’ and ‘other’ is my preoccupation

And it clicked then that it is as I wrote “the door to actual intimacy has a similar sign but it reads - “Leave ‘your’ self at the door”.” In that ‘I’ am those clothes which need to be shed so that this body can experience “the magnificent universe” as Srinath wrote. Thinking about it now reminds me of Geoffreys post too because he was referring to the same thing :

Geoffrey: For I had been exploring the unknown continent, its golden cities and living clouds, for weeks, without a word. When some letter found its way to me, its ink faded from the sea voyage, enquiring about matters so home-bound as to appear foreign: a quarrel about definitions, from the Royal Society of leathery armchairs, asking for my judgment. My ruling.

Please differentiate! they ask. Please settle our quarrel!

We wish to classify, exactly, those birds we’ve never seen!

So the golden city and the living clouds laughed and danced and sang:

"Won’t they open the windows? Won’t they bathe in the stream?

Won’t they take off their clothes, and swim through the sea?"

And I can see that this is what Richard refers to by “being naked” :

Richard: By the word naked I do not necessarily mean ‘no clothes’ but, rather, much more than being merely nude; I mean having nothing to hide and everything openly on display for all to see (by those capable of having both eyes open that is) before embarking on an idyllic voyage through paradise

In short it is ‘my’ very self which is the “something to hide”, and this act of ‘me’ hiding in ‘my’ hiding place is what creates this uncrossable gulf which stands in the way of actual intimacy.

And so at one moment I had 2 words in mind - “myself” and “a self”, I realised immediately that they are referring to 2 vastly different things, one refers to a fact and the other to a belief/illusion. In that an actually free person might very well use the words “myself” when referencing the very flesh and blood body in question, whereas “a self” is what ‘I’ am as an ontological ‘being’, a ‘thing-in-itself’. And then there was this seeing that this ‘thing-in-itself’ is completely and utterly an illusion, in that not only does it not actually exist, it never existed in the first place. This was not ‘me’ doing the seeing but rather it was happening to ‘me’.

And so for the remainder of the drive I was utterly fascinated by just how close an actual freedom is! It is so very close because the entity which needs to be extirpated does not actually exist in the first place. I understood then why (as seen by ‘me’) you have been so optimistic throughout my correspondence with you, that step towards actual freedom it is such a short step, it could happen to anyone at any time because all that happens is that an illusion is no more.
Of course somehow ‘I’ evaded the totality of this seeing because ‘I’ am writing these words. But ‘I’ have confidence in bucket-fulls now that it is for sure possible for ‘me’ to become extinct.

Later on this wonder turned into something like a mini panic attack, but I was able to ride this out rather easily this time around.

Today things have been excellent since the morning, and now I am wondering what is it that ‘I’ am still hiding, or what is it that ‘I’ am still hanging around for :laughing: In that ‘I’ have seen that ‘I’ am not genuine and yet some part of ‘me’ wanted to stick around clearly…

When ‘I’ consider ‘my’ life, what is left of it and what ‘I’ could possibly be saving ‘myself’ for there is only 1 possibility left it seems, all other things have been resolved. It may also be the reason why ‘I’ have not been able to give all of ‘myself’ to Sonya. And it is related to the work I do as a hen party entertainer and the feelings this brings about. Those events they can get somewhat “wild” and I have always enjoyed the high of such a situation. And yet there is something not quite with all this in that ‘I’ am addicted to the high, ‘I’ prioritise the high over an actual intimacy and furthermore the whole thing it scatters ‘my’ intent to get as close as possible to the person I am closest to - Sonya.

It seems there is something here, even just typing the above out and fully admitting it to myself things have got even more wonderful, reminding me of what I experienced a while back, of the world being as if a shimmering jewel.

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