Yes so this is it! ‘the danger’, that voice which entices ‘me’ to go to that ‘other place’, it is a mirage. It initially looks like it is being here which is dangerous but it is not so, this ‘danger’ it is an apparition designed to perpetuate the status quo. Huh it makes sense now what feeling being ‘Vineeto’ did in “traversing the wall of fear”, this is it.
Once that ‘wall of fear’ is traversed it is seen to be a mirage/apparition/trick, it is as if the doorway to actual freedom is guarded by this wall of fear.
It is really fascinating, there is a flavour I am experiencing which is familiar, it must be how I experienced being alive when I was younger, back then it was normal to experience life like this, it was before ‘I’ became a full blown identity. And it is almost as if those years of being a full blown identity were just 1 long drama that deep down I always knew something was wrong with. I remember thinking this as I entered my teenage years, there was a faint memory that life used to be so clean, so magical, it was almost as if those magical years were a dream or a life lived by someone else. But I did experience life like this when I was a child, then the period from around 12 was as if a living nightmare compared with what was before.
The flavour which I am talking about it is so clean from ‘my’ influence and the world around is so deeply magical, it is as if living in a fairy-tale. But the most astonishing thing is that this is not new for me, I lived like this once upon a time. Richard did write that it is about re-discovering one’s naiveté.
And this deeply magical aspect, it is in some way more than the most outstanding experiences of sensuousness. It is even more than what I described a while ago about the world being like a shining jewel, it is yet another layer that is uncovered. But it’s also seeing that it is not an experience but it is what life is actually like. It is like entering this hushed wonderland.
I remember Claudiu wrote a while back - when contemplating just how big an actual freedom is - this question of “could I really shift the status quo that much” , this magical wonderland is so far from the status quo that they can’t even be compared side by side.
And it’s funny because there can be a tendency to place actuality under the umbrella of materialism, a world of atoms and molecules and mechanistic laws etc.
I was always trying to understand actuality in ‚my’ language and now I can see those things are incompatible.
The closest ‚I’ can come to understanding actuality is by being naïveté and then it is seen that actuality is not materialism, it is something far more magical.
Vineeto: Do you still wonder why it is so difficult to stand still and do nothing, especially as long as enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive with gay abandon, no matter what happens, is not yet an established habitual modus operandi?
Kuba: No this is clearer to me now, in that I can see that this ‘movement’ is necessary to maintain ‘my’ very existence. This ‘movement’ is what ‘I’ did all ‘my’ life, only thing ‘I’ have known so far. So now ‘I’ am allowing something that is entirely unfamiliar for ‘me’, to “stand still” and eventually to completely disappear. I can see that “standing still” is something to enjoy and appreciate because it is a taste of what it is like to be released from the burden of ‘being’, enjoying and appreciating in gay abandon is a taste of that release, it is when ‘I’ allow ‘myself’ to “stand still” without screaming or kicking and ‘I’ simply delight and luxuriate in the fact that ‘I’ am not required.
Hi Kuba,
I like the word “luxuriate”, it includes both delight and appreciation. And from your most recent message it appears that delighting and luxuriating being here paved the way to remembering your long-lost childhood naiveté.
This is excellent. You can probably also see that it takes time and practice to stand still longer and longer and enjoy this unfamiliar way of being more and more. As you said in another post –
Kuba: But something does click every time so it is not time wasted, I am just quite amazed at how far ‘my’ influence reaches. (link)
Vineeto: Have you ever been aware that deep down ‘I’ desire oblivion? Only recognising and acknowledging this desire will turn “this sense of genuine danger” into being the welcome destiny ‘you’ always wanted.
Kuba: Yes I have experienced ‘my’ desire for oblivion, as we mentioned a while ago even going a little faint would deliver the flavour of it, of ‘me’ no longer having to be ‘me’. It is definitely very enjoyable and same goes for going into gay abandon, it is delicious to get a break from being ‘me’ / living ‘my’ life.
It is what ‘I’ fear the most before it happens and when it is happening ‘I’ realise it is what ‘I’ desire the most.
Hehe so it is exactly how Richard wrote, that as weird as it may sound at first what ‘I’ fear the most is also what ‘I’ desire the most. It’s funny because ‘I’ resist ‘my’ death with all ‘my’ might and yet even a little taster of oblivion is so delicious for ‘me’. (link)
I am pleased you now clearly experience desiring oblivion – so whenever standing still appears to become difficult to bear for the time being, you can ‘lean into’ ‘your’ desire for oblivion in lieu of allowing fear to create an inner dichotomy where ‘I’ am battling with ‘me’ or trying to force ‘me’ to an agreement ‘you’ may not yet be ready for.
Kuba: Yes so this is it! ‘the danger’, that voice which entices ‘me’ to go to that ‘other place’, it is a mirage. It initially looks like it is being here which is dangerous but it is not so, this ‘danger’ it is an apparition designed to perpetuate the status quo. Huh it makes sense now what feeling being ‘Vineeto’ did in “traversing the wall of fear”, this is it.
I am reminded, again, of Geoffrey’s description –
Geoffrey: I stood there, the sun in my back, full of sensuousness, delighting in Pure Intent, amazed at how the actual is so safe. I was thinking about the unknown path lying before me (the path that deliver the goods – as I knew from the PCE), and realised in a flash that the unknown path is the safe path. That the known is the unsafe. That ‘I’ am the unsafe.
For a split second I saw like a veil in front of me. I saw how I could be on the other side of the ‘mirror’, on the safe side, the magical side, how I could… (Becoming Free Reports, Geoffrey).
Indeed, fear is both the obstacle and the doorway to actuality.
I can’t even remember how ‘Vineeto’ suddenly found ‘herself’ on the other side of the wall of fear, and only realised what happened later on –
‘Vineeto’: Richard described it this way in a private email about me – Richard: ‘Vineeto, who is now fully out-from-control/in a fully different-way-of-being, and thus on my side of that enormous wall of fear completely encircling all of humankind, …’ (24.12.2009) (Out from Control Reports, Vineeto)
Kuba: Once that ‘wall of fear’ is traversed it is seen to be a mirage/ apparition/ trick, it is as if the doorway to actual freedom is guarded by this wall of fear. (link)
It is not only “as if”, it is so in reality because at core ‘I’ am fear and fear is ‘me’. Here is how Richard described his own process of traversing the wall of fear (the first time in the history of human consciousness) –
Richard: With pure intent one can enable a movement into the existential angst, rather than despairingly grasping at doomsday straws, which movement facilitates the bright light of awareness being shone into the innermost recesses of ‘my’ presence … which is ‘presence’ itself.
Such an active perspicacity in ‘my’ moment of reckoning will reveal that ‘presence’ itself feeds off ‘my’ fear – it is its very life-blood as it were – and this functional acuity brings an abrupt end to its nourishment. Whereupon all-of-a-sudden one finds oneself on the other side of the wall (to keep with the ‘cornered’ analogy for now) with the hitherto unseeable doorway to freedom closing behind one … and one is walking freely in this actual world where one has already always been living anyway.
All what happened was that upon ‘my’ exposure dissolution occurred and the Land of Lament sank without a trace. (Richard, List B, James3, 21 Nov 2002a).
Richard: If you see that fear is at the base of everything then that seeing is the ending of fear, period. (Richard, List B, James2, 20 Jul 2001).
Kuba: It is really fascinating, there is a flavour I am experiencing which is familiar, it must be how I experienced being alive when I was younger, back then it was normal to experience life like this, it was before ‘I’ became a full blown identity. And it is almost as if those years of being a full blown identity were just 1 long drama that deep down I always knew something was wrong with. I remember thinking this as I entered my teenage years, there was a faint memory that life used to be so clean, so magical, it was almost as if those magical years were a dream or a life lived by someone else. But I did experience life like this when I was a child, then the period from around 12 was as if a living nightmare compared with what was before.
The flavour which I am talking about it is so clean from ‘my’ influence and the world around is so deeply magical, it is as if living in a fairy-tale. But the most astonishing thing is that this is not new for me, I lived like this once upon a time. Richard did write that it is about re-discovering one’s naiveté. (link)
Yes, that is genuine naiveté, now with adult sensibilities, and also the dynamic, out-from-under-control, different way of being virtual freedom Richard described.
Your description reminds me of various legends and fairy-tales where the protagonist has to leave a perfect setting, perform a certain task/ tasks in order to be rewarded at the end, usually the end of their life, with returning to the original perfect place. The old Arthurian legends of Parcival and Galahad searching for the Grail, which captured ‘her’ as a youth, are such tales (later inevitable fitted into Christian belief). It seems they have their source in this “faint memory that life used to be so clean, so magical” which you are talking about – except that yours is not fantasy but you that actually found it.
So the recent discussion in Sonya’s journal has been doing something. This theme of control has been at the forefront for me for a long time, it is slowly but surely sinking in that the story of ‘my’ life is a furphy. I saw this yesterday in a spectacular fashion. It made me think of what people popularly call “being the main character”, in that some people (the more narcissistic ones) will act in a way as if they are the main character in their story and the rest are “NPC’s” (non-playing characters).
Except I saw that ‘we’ are all like this, that the story of ‘my’ life is necessarily a self-centred creation. ‘I’ am placed as a pin right at the centre of it all and ‘my’ gravitational pull is what apparently sets/keeps everything in motion, that is to say everything that happens happens with ‘me’ as the main reference point. This is simply how ‘I’ experience being alive, this is ‘my’ life. All the various myths that ‘I’ consist of add shape and colour to this story.
So yesterday I saw that this self-centred story of ‘my’ life is a furphy, and this was seen solidly as a fact. With this seeing that ‘I’ am not at the centre of everything came such a freedom from responsibility and obligation. In a sense ‘I’ fancy ‘myself’ almost as a god… in that ‘I’ believe and feel that ‘I’ am pulling these various strings and providing the vital spark for things to happen, all as per ‘my’ self-centred play piece - this is ‘my’ life. And then all of a sudden this entire thing was pulled back and I saw that there isn’t anything “at the centre”, that life is simply happening of it’s own accord and it all happens everywhere all at once, now. ‘I’ never played any part in any of it - such a freedom to see that!
And this modus operandi of existing where life happens of its own accord - vs ‘my’ proud/humble (self-centred) play piece - is so much more fun and delightful and fascinating. I would much rather live in a world where life happens of its own accord, where there is no ‘me’ at the centre of everything. The amazing thing which I saw yesterday is that it is already like that, it is just how long ‘I’ am willing to keep up the facade for.
So to be here now where this moment is happening is to be completely locked into this wonderful spectacle that is the universe happening, of course one could only enjoy and appreciate all this.
It is where pride and humility, obligation and responsibility and the rest of it, it all goes to die. It is what ‘I’ always wanted, such a freedom. Could it really be that simple, that ‘I’ am not required at all. Haha for sure this takes naivete and then some!
‘I’ am holding onto those last shreds of control, somewhat worried as to what will eventuate when it all disappears for good. But ‘I’ am gaining more and more confidence that it is not only safe but utterly delightful.
There was this last fear that I had (perhaps still do) especially as a ex-high achiever That without ‘me’ there will be a lack of excellence, that ‘I’ am needed to excel. But this is also slowly melting away as I can see that all those faculties which allow this body to excel in whatever endeavour, ‘I’ only get in the way of them functioning smoothly.
So the question I am looking at is - Could it be that I have excelled despite of ‘me’, not because of ‘me’.
So as the high achiever ‘I’ needed to excel in order to maintain ‘my’ position within the ‘group’. So it was an excelling over ‘others’. And yet I notice that there is also something in me that simply wants to perform at the optimum, not as a means to substantiate ‘my’ identity but rather as a fundamental inclination.
This fear of a lack of excellence is the fear that this fundamental inclination towards performing at the optimum will disappear. Although I haven’t had a single piece of information come my way which would indicate this, in fact it’s all pointed in the opposite direction.
Let’s take practicing BJJ as an example - minimising the good/bad feelings and maximising the felicitous feelings certainly improved my performance and ability to learn, rather than impacting it negatively. Then once ‘I’ started to release the controls somehow I kept showing up to train and still made further progress, in fact even easier now because as above those various faculties required to perform can function even smoother.
And now ‘I’ am looking at the situation where ‘I’ don’t play any role at all and ‘I’ seem convinced that this body would all of a sudden have 2 left arms and legs and a potato for a brain
Hmm or rather it is that without ‘me’ there would be no inclination to excel rather than no ability to excel.
So the question posed in my previous post, it has been very dear to ‘me’ for a long time. I am happy that I have managed to finally get to the crux of it, and now it is unraveling before me.
This question has been with me since the beginning of my involvement with actualism. This pursuit of excellence and the high achiever identity have always been in some kind of a conflict with the proposition that ‘I’ am to enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive, each moment again. A conflict that I now see as being totally unnecessary.
I can see that ‘I’ had created a dichotomy, as much as ‘I’ enjoyed living in a “holiday atmosphere” there was always this thought of - well so ‘I’ am just meant to sit by the beach and not ever do anything? So there were apparently 2 choices only… There was the world where ‘I’ could excel but also where stress, anxiety and the rest of it existed, there was also the option to enjoy and appreciate in gay abandon but ‘I’ thought this entailed a giving up of excellence. ‘I’ was taking “holiday atmosphere” a little too literally
But nevertheless ‘I’ wrestled with this for a long time. It is interesting because I have been having the same kind of conversations with my mum for a long time. In that she sees the effect that the good/bad feelings have on her and yet she equates being happy and harmless with being inactive. That it means I get my deck chair out and sip cocktails and never perform any other activity ever again.
Of course this is silly when I think about it, what if the entire world was to become actually free overnight, would everyone get their deck chairs out as the world crumbles? Would no technology ever become invented again cos the scientists and engineers are too busy “chilling out” etc.
I can see that one of the things to be enjoyed and appreciated is what this body is capable of, I am always amazed at what humankind has already accomplished. The kind of world we live in with the technology, transportation, medicine, provisions, leisure etc These are all the outcomes of what I am referring to when I say excellence. Of course all of this does not stop when ‘I’ get out of the way.
What I can see is that excellence is what flows automatically when one is freed from ‘me’. Now this excellence is not a moral excellence, it does not fit to ‘my’ or ‘humanity’s’ various moulds, it is better than that. Because ‘I’ had it back to front, ‘I’ equated excellence with that which ‘I’ manufactured or controlled. But I see it is the other way around now, those moulds which ‘I’ fit around this free flowing excellence are a restricting influence.
So to cut a long story short I see now that there is no need at all to give up excellence, in fact before it was that excellence had to be “filtered” through the various layers of ‘me’ whereas when ‘I’ get out of the way it can flow freely and flower fully. I can see that excellence - this inclination to perform at the optimum is what flows directly from the perfection and purity of the actual world.
To use Richard’s analogy of the perfectly cooked golden piece of toast vs the black charred piece of toast - why would anybody choose the black charred piece? Of course one goes for the golden delicious toast with butter just beginning to melt - this is what I mean when I say an inclination towards excellence. We are flesh and blood creatures, it is sensible to exist in excellence.
And of course this applies to anything and everything, why would I want to go teach a BJJ class that is a waste of time for all, why would I want to interact with a fellow human being and for it to be unpleasant, why would I write this post and it not make sense or choose words that incorrectly describe what is being conveyed etc Essentially why would I want to do something badly when it can be done well?
And this body is well geared towards excellence, it is wonderful to observe what it is capable of in all manner of things, why should this disappear when ‘I’ take ‘my’ leave?
I can see now the mistake ‘I’ made was that in giving up moral excellence ‘I’ felt that actual excellence had to be discarded as well. But I see now that with all of this unravelling there is an excellence which flows freely, how could I act any other way?
So last week I managed to resolve the question ‘I’ had around allowing excellence, yesterday something clicked with regards to expecting excellence from others. This was also a long standing habit of mine and the main reason I would get sour these days.
It happened at work as I was working through a mess that could have been easily avoided with some basic planning and consideration, when I raised this with the superiors it was clear that they were not interested.
Initially ‘I’ went into the tried and failed paths of resentment and wishing things were different, it was very quickly seen that this is a dead end for sure… So then ‘I’ was at a crossroads because it is clear that demanding others to change does not work but neither does it work to accept others as they are.
It clicked then that what I have been missing all along is this basic fact, which is that (whether one sees it or not) one is free to live their live as sensibly or foolishly as one wants. The universe does not force one to be happy and harmless and to live sensibly, if one wishes to bang their head against a wall repeatedly then so be it. What I can see is that I was still carrying some kind of obligation which I was projecting onto others, that they must live sensibly, probably because their foolish actions have an effect on me. But in demanding others to be different I am forgetting the fact that they are fellow human beings.
And it is all rather simple when this is seen, because each individual is left standing on their own two feet, living their life. Then I am not obligated but neither am I expecting things from others. Of course excellence can still flow but without expectation and obligation there is no attempt to change the other, which always fails anyways.
I am reminded of Richard’s journal where he explored the “social contract” which everyone is apparently signing by being born into a society. Where I am proceeding now there is no contract either way. How fascinating that it is possible to live in peace and harmony where there is no contract, no blueprint, no obligation or responsibility. It seems this is only possible in a virtual freedom or actual freedom so for now the law, courts, police, army etc are still required. But I do not have to wait for society to change before I unilaterally exit this ‘contract’ or rather realise that the ‘contract’ was never actual.
Kuba: So last week I managed to resolve the question ‘I’ had around allowing excellence, yesterday something clicked with regards to expecting excellence from others. This was also a long standing habit of mine and the main reason I would get sour these days. (…)
It clicked then that what I have been missing all along is this basic fact, which is that (whether one sees it or not) one is free to live their life as sensibly or foolishly as one wants. The universe does not force one to be happy and harmless and to live sensibly, if one wishes to bang their head against a wall repeatedly then so be it. What I can see is that I was still carrying some kind of obligation which I was projecting onto others, that they must live sensibly, probably because their foolish actions have an effect on me. But in demanding others to be different I am forgetting the fact that they are fellow human beings.
And it is all rather simple when this is seen, because each individual is left standing on their own two feet, living their life. Then I am not obligated but neither am I expecting things from others. Of course excellence can still flow but without expectation and obligation there is no attempt to change the other, which always fails anyways.
Hi Kuba,
Well said. Recognising the fact that others are fellow human beings is closely linked to being naïve, where you like yourself and like others. As such feeling excellent puts you in the perfect disposition to have no expectations/ no disappointment regarding what others do or not do and equally does away with any feeling of obligation/ responsibility and/or guilt/ shame regarding what you do.
Kuba: I am reminded of Richard’s journal where he explored the “social contract” which everyone is apparently signing by being born into a society. Where I am proceeding now there is no contract either way. How fascinating that it is possible to live in peace and harmony where there is no contract, no blueprint, no obligation or responsibility. It seems this is only possible in a virtual freedom or actual freedom so for now the law, courts, police, army etc are still required. But I do not have to wait for society to change before I unilaterally exit this ‘contract’ or rather realise that the ‘contract’ was never actual. (link)
The ‘social contract’ locks you inside of ‘humanity’ with its wide-ranging consequences, whereas when you recognize/ realise that such ‘contract’ does not exist in actuality, your actual parameters are felicity and benevolence, purity and magnanimity, naiveté and ingenuousness – or, in other words amorality. Then you act according to the facts and pure intent in each situation and your life becomes a playful and very liberating adventure.
Richard: ‘amoral: unconcerned with or outside morality; neither moral nor immoral; being beyond the moral order or a particular code of morals’. ~ (Oxford Dictionary).
… to be ‘amoral’ is when a person can totally and reliably be capable of spontaneously interacting in the world of people, things and events, in a way that is neither personally insalubrious nor socially reprehensible, at all times and under any circumstance without exception. (Richard, AF List, No. 10a, 25 Jul 2000 ).
You might also like this one –
Richard: … there is simply no reason at all why gainful employment need be anything other than fun.
For instance, all my best work (back when supporting both a wife and a family) always happened when I was having the most fun; in fact I have some very blurry black and white ‘home movie’ type footage of myself, circa March 1981, which ends with ‘me’ saying: ‘Do your own thing … but have fun; if you’re not having fun then, hell, stop doing it, something is wrong; if you’re not having fun, if you have to force yourself to go to work, if you’re unhappy, something is wrong’. Within weeks ‘he’ was carted off to a hospital emergency care unit in a catatonic state and … and here we are today having this illuminating chat about our fancy dreams.
Who else can be enticed to come out and play – to join me here in this actual world – and live life where all is fun yet where everything which needs to be done does get done (albeit playfully) because of those oh-so-vital adult sensibilities? ‘Tis yours for the asking, so to speak, as no one is stopping you but yourself; no time is the right time to make it all happen as the right time only comes about when you have it happen; it is not a case of being ready for it as being ready only occurs when you have it occur; all you get by waiting is more waiting as now is the moment where it all happens; everything which happens only ever happens now. Actuality is where more than your fancy dreams can come true – much, much more – as life itself, here, is beyond even any of your most absolutely wild fantasies.
This is what is actually better than best. (Richard, List D, No. 4, 14 Dec 2009).
Wow what an amazing reply, this really tied things together for me now :
So earlier I was wondering how is it that it’s possible to live in peace and harmony without all that ‘tried and true’ stuff, what happens when morality is removed, when there is no contract, blueprint, belief, value etc to guide one’s actions. Essentially it is that “leaf blowing in the wind” furphy, and this has now been obliterated!
I especially like this word amorality, this is exactly it. In ‘my’ case it is amorality sourced in / facilitated by naivete. For some reason this has brought up a memory of that writing where you described how you experience yourself :
Since then I experience myself as what I am, not just this physical body but with particular qualities to the experiencing which to my own surprise I called ‘what I always wanted to be/what I have always been’ even though I have never lived it. For an analogy of how I experience what I am at core I have to go into the Greek mythology where people’s imagination had populated nature with nymphs, inherent/chthonic to springs or trees or groves. This experience of myself is very light and playful, as if living naked in the wilderness, utterly on my own and undeniably undefined by either people or events. I described it as being innocence personified. Sensuosity, sensuality and sexuality are as much part of what I am just as sexuality and abundance are happening in nature everywhere.
This is also amorality, this time it is part and parcel of actual innocence. But this amorality is not empty, it is not a “leaf blowing in the wind” etc. There is something wonderful that is at the basis of one’s actions / inclinations when actually free.
I can see now that it is completely safe to eliminate the lot of ‘human wisdom’, that not even a shred of that stuff is required. Wow I am still blown away by this seeing haha!
And the problem with any morality is that it gets in the way of freely enjoying and appreciating what one is. So I can see now that proceeding in this direction where I am going there is no need at all for morality, and it is this absence of any ‘human’ construct which allows enjoyment and appreciation without any cap, or any kind of restricting influence.
What has come to my attention recently is this habit of ‘mine’ where ‘I’ seek to lay out what is ahead, essentially planning out and scheming how things will happen. And not just concerning self-immolation but even day to day living. It seems lately this habit is being chipped away at, and not even by ‘me’ as much as by the facts of life
It dawned on me this morning that ‘I’ have woken up thousands of times and planned “how the day is going to go” and not a single time it happened as per the plan/scheme, and yet ‘I’ wake up once again and do the same thing… lol. It is becoming more and more obvious that it is simply impossible for ‘me’ to create a plan/scheme and to have life fit into it. In fact by the time ‘I’ say ‘my’ plan out loud things have already changed enough that it no longer applies, so it is now progressively being seen as completely useless to do this at all, what for?
If I was to use a metaphor of life being a movie that is being played and ‘my’ plans/schemes being a stencil which ‘I’ am holding over this moving image and expecting it to fit, it just cannot work.
Planning and scheming is becoming a bit of a pain in the backside at this point, I’d rather just do without it all together. I remember a funny incident where me and Sonya were driving to the shops and trying to decide what we are going to have for dinner, we couldn’t decide so I said - “I’m gonna let the universe decide”. Funnily enough we got to the supermarket and the entire section which houses the meat was being cleaned or what have you and as such not a single one of our plans could happen anyways. So all this deliberation we were going through in the car it was for nothing in the end.
So what I am contemplating is whether all of ‘my’ planning and scheming can be safely dispensed with.
A similar question was asked as part of the Australia Q and A’s :
How does planning differ in Actual Freedom? How do they approach unknowns in planning?
Do they make plans? If they do, does it differ significantly from the way they dealt with making plans pre-actualisation? Or is it as simple as feeling felicitous/innocuous throughout the process from start to finish? Part of why I’m asking is that I’ve found some of Richard’s descriptions of time interesting – e.g.: only now is happening – and I’m curious how that might affect thinking about the future.
Richard (Vineeto was not here today) doesn’t think about the future, as that doesn’t exist in the actual world. Only this moment exists, which is eternal, but not static … It is dynamic. It is events that change/move (not time).
Yet, plans are made in the same way as they were before, if something is needed (for example groceries), he knows he would need to get to the store while it’s open, and get the things he needs. If he has an appointment, he knows when he needs to be there. Every day when we’re about to leave we “plan” to get together the next day.
But this doesn’t quite answer my question, which is - is it possible for ‘me’ to do away with all ‘my’ scheming and planning and still live sensibly. Of course if Richard needed to go to the shop which closes at 8pm and the drive is 15min then he would understand that he needs to leave before 7:45 and would act accordingly. But is this kind of “planning” the same activity as what ‘I’ am doing when ‘I’ wake up and create a stencil of the day ahead which ‘I’ am then seeking to live out?
And here we go ‘I’ had planned to go do some shopping today and now this guy has messaged to say he is coming to buy some old furniture from us so I can’t go! So all that planning was for naught as well
And here ‘I’ was already imagining the various items ‘I’ was going to get, in ‘my’ very real scheming.
Kuba: So earlier I was wondering how is it that it’s possible to live in peace and harmony without all that ‘tried and true’ stuff, what happens when morality is removed, when there is no contract, blueprint, belief, value etc to guide one’s actions. Essentially it is that “leaf blowing in the wind” furphy, and this has now been obliterated!
I especially like this word amorality, this is exactly it. In ‘my’ case it is amorality sourced in / facilitated by naivete. For some reason this has brought up a memory of that writing where you described how you experience yourself :
Vineeto: Since then I experience myself as what I am, not just this physical body but with particular qualities to the experiencing which to my own surprise I called ‘what I always wanted to be/what I have always been’ even though I have never lived it. For an analogy of how I experience what I am at core I have to go into the Greek mythology where people’s imagination had populated nature with nymphs, inherent/ chthonic to springs or trees or groves. This experience of myself is very light and playful, as if living naked in the wilderness, utterly on my own and undeniably undefined by either people or events. I described it as being innocence personified. Sensuosity, sensuality and sexuality are as much part of what I am just as sexuality and abundance are happening in nature everywhere. (Private correspondence, 29 November 29, 2010). (link)
Kuba: This is also amorality, this time it is part and parcel of actual innocence. But this amorality is not empty, it is not a “leaf blowing in the wind” etc. There is something wonderful that is at the basis of one’s actions / inclinations when actually free.
I can see now that it is completely safe to eliminate the lot of ‘human wisdom’, that not even a shred of that stuff is required. Wow I am still blown away by this seeing haha!
And the problem with any morality is that it gets in the way of freely enjoying and appreciating what one is. So I can see now that proceeding in this direction where I am going there is no need at all for morality, and it is this absence of any ‘human’ construct which allows enjoyment and appreciation without any cap, or any kind of restricting influence. (link)
Hi Kuba,
They are great insights and you managed to gain some more information how life in the actual world would look like from ‘my’ perspective (if pure intent was operating).
I compared it once to a game of chess in a message to Roy on May 1 this year –
Vineeto: It’s like playing chess with yourself – on one side the identity programmed to keep the status quo and on the other side your sincere intent to feel good, feel excellent, be more naïve, more considerate, a friend to yourself and benevolent towards your fellow human beings. (link)
Having followed your process for a while now, seemingly getting closer to becoming free but never quite, I am reminded more of a poker game where ‘I’ prestidigitatiously manifest one card after another to keep ‘my’ game going. You twigged to it yourself in the next message.
However, no matter how many times each particular objection gets invalidated the ultimate objection (that ‘I’ don’t want to go extinct) still remains intact.
Kuba: What has come to my attention recently is this habit of ‘mine’ where ‘I’ seek to lay out what is ahead, essentially planning out and scheming how things will happen. And not just concerning self-immolation but even day to day living. It seems lately this habit is being chipped away at, and not even by ‘me’ as much as by the facts of life.
It dawned on me this morning that ‘I’ have woken up thousands of times and planned “how the day is going to go” and not a single time it happened as per the plan/scheme, and yet ‘I’ wake up once again and do the same thing… lol. It is becoming more and more obvious that it is simply impossible for ‘me’ to create a plan/scheme and to have life fit into it. In fact by the time ‘I’ say ‘my’ plan out loud things have already changed enough that it no longer applies, so it is now progressively being seen as completely useless to do this at all, what for? (…)
Hi Kuba,
This is what you understood at that time when you considered allowing going out-from-control in July last year –
Kuba: Those ‘last remaining cobwebs’ is exactly how I would describe those remaining dramas, it seems ‘I’ am only holding onto what’s left of them in order to block the momentum that would otherwise follow. This is the tricky part, proceeding without knowing with certainty what the destination is like, it’s stepping into the unknowable. It seems ‘I’ am instead searching for 100% certainty before ‘I’ dare to step out of the cage, which is of course an impossibility as this can only be had upon actual freedom. [Emphasis added] (link)
However, despite knowing that ‘you’ will never know with certainty what the destination is like, because ‘you’ will have to become extinct in order to reach the ultimate destination, ‘you’ still play the game of finding out the impossible, even when you *“*dispensed with” “all of ‘my’ planning and scheming” . At some point your unequivocal agreement to ‘your’ demise is imperative to reach your destiny.
Kuba: So what I am contemplating is whether all of ‘my’ planning and scheming can be safely dispensed with. (…)
In the meantime, to “safely dispense with” “all of ‘my’ planning and scheming” means allowing the ‘doer’, the ‘controller’, the ‘planer’, the ‘schemer’ to be fully recognized and disappear for good in order for the ‘beer’ (with pure intent) to fully come to the fore. This is exactly what the word naiveté refers to.
Kuba: Of course if Richard needed to go to the shop which closes at 8pm and the drive is 15min then he would understand that he needs to leave before 7:45 and would act accordingly. But is this kind of “planning” the same activity as what ‘I’ am doing when ‘I’ wake up and create a stencil of the day ahead which ‘I’ am then seeking to live out? (link)
Ha, if Richard had followed the advice of ‘your’ planner he would have arrived at the shop exactly at the time it closes. Obviously this kind of “planning” is not “the same activity as what ‘I’ am doing when ‘I’ wake up and create a stencil of the day ahead which ‘I’ am then seeking to live out”.
Joking aside, upon honest contemplation you might see that ‘your’ habit of *“*planning and scheming” has no role to play in how Richard describes out-from-being-under-control –
Richard: Being out-from-control/ in a different-way-of-being is quite daunting to contemplate as an on-going EE marks the end of the beginning of the end of ‘me’ and the commencement of the actualism process – as distinct from the actualism method – wherein a momentum not of ‘my’ doing takes over and an inevitability sets in; in an on-going EE the actual world has the effect of impelling one towards it – like a moth to a candle as the overarching benignity and benevolence of the actual increasingly operates such as to render ‘my’ felicity/ innocuity increasingly redundant; this is where being the nearest a ‘self’ can be to innocence – the naiveté located betwixt the core of being and the sexual centre (where one is both likeable and liking) – is attached as if with a golden thread or clew to the purity of actual innocence; an on-going EE is, thus, where one becomes acclimatised to benignity and benevolence and the resultant blitheness because the purity of the actual is so powerful that it would ‘blow the fuses’ if one was to venture into this territory ill-prepared. (Richard, List D, No. 12, 9 Dec 2009a)
Richard: In effect, the actualism process is what ensues when one gets out from being under control, via having given oneself prior permission to have one’s life live itself (i.e., sans the controlling doer), and a different way of being comes about (i.e., where the beer is the operant) – whereupon a thrilling out-from-control momentum takes over and an inevitability sets in – whereafter there is no pulling back (hence the reluctance in having it set in motion) as once begun it is nigh-on unstoppable.
Then one is in for the ride of a lifetime! [Emphasis added] (Richard, List D, Claudiu4, 28 Jan 2016)
Thank you for your responses I will try to explain a little more what has been going on on ‘my’ end perhaps it will clarify further or perhaps it will turn out to be another card prestidigitatiously manifested
Yesterday I initially wrote out something along these lines but then I deleted it as it did not seem relevant, perhaps it is after all.
Richard: Who else can be enticed to come out and play – to join me here in this actual world – and live life where all is fun yet where everything which needs to be done does get done (albeit playfully) because of those oh-so-vital adult sensibilities? ‘Tis yours for the asking, so to speak, as no one is stopping you but yourself; no time is the right time to make it all happen as the right time only comes about when you have it happen; it is not a case of being ready for it as being ready only occurs when you have it occur; all you get by waiting is more waiting as now is the moment where it all happens; everything which happens only ever happens now. Actuality is where more than your fancy dreams can come true – much, much more – as life itself, here, is beyond even any of your most absolutely wild fantasies.
This is what is actually better than best
So I was looking at this quote of Richard’s and indeed I can see that all I get by waiting is more waiting. I find myself at times going all steam ahead searching for a way to allow self immolation to happen and then at times I will go back to the “in the meantime” business of cleaning ‘myself’ up where possible. I can see that the “in the meantime” business is a different activity to what is required to allow ‘my’ self-immolation, the everyday application of the actualism method and the once in a life-time decision to allow self-immolation to happen are 2 different things. There is benefit to the “in the meantime” business in that it provides a stable platform from which to suss out how to go all the way.
So linking it back to ‘my’ habit of planning and scheming, this investigation of the ‘planner and schemer’ would be part of the “in the meantime” business of cleaning ‘myself’ up where possible. Because honestly ‘I’ cannot see what else ‘I’ can do in order to allow ‘my’ self-immolation currently. All the various doors which ‘I’ have seen so far turned out to be like that ‘invisible wall’ from the video a while back
But this habit of planning and scheming is right there, staring me in the face, searching the various cupboards of ‘me’ it seems this is the only thing of substance left (other than the instinctual passions themselves of course). So looking at this habit it was more like I could see that eliminating it would have the immediate benefit of allowing ‘me’ to live more happily and harmlessly and secondly it would get rid of another little weed that might be hiding the genuine door marked oblivion.
But now that I write this I think there is something more to it, in that finally putting to bed this thing of planning and scheming would allow ‘me’ to remain out from control. Because observing ‘myself’ day to day it is like this - it is bouts of gay abandon followed by bouts of the ‘planner and schemer’ operating. I can very clearly tell when I have gone from 1 “mode” to the other. Of course enjoying and appreciating in gay abandon is utterly delightful and I would like to live like so all the time, and here is where that question comes in - can ‘I’ safely abandon all planning and scheming. Not merely putting it to one side for a few hours and then picking it back up later, but to abandon that activity altogether.
Hummmmmm I do wonder if this thorough reasoning is really more a justification of inaction rather than prudence in action? I say it from experience
I visited Geoffrey for a few days recently which I’ll write more about later. Part of the point of the trip was of course to get me further towards self-immolating (if not self-immolate right on the trip itself).
One evening I saw my next obstacle so clearly. I had pinned it down – I really did want to self-immolate of course! But I felt like I couldn’t, I was too much of a fraud, too rotten to do it, I couldn’t allow myself to do it. So, I wanted to do it, but alas I wasn’t good enough. And I had planned out how to resolve this all too, like sticking with that feeling, allowing myself to do proceed even though I felt I couldn’t, allow myself to have this thing I want even if I am rotten, the rotten-ness is the whole point (the reason to self-immolate) etc.
When I met back with Geoffrey I started telling him all this, and he’s like oh you feel like a fraud? To who? “The universe, like cosmically so.” And he was like Ahhhh I see! You got dealt a bad hand. The old wise men up in the sky took a look around one day when they were deciding everyone’s fate, and they saw Claudiu and said “Nah he’s not gonna make it, we’ve decided, he’s not good enough”. Nothing you can do about it, it is out of your hands!
And I just burst out laughing haha. It was easy to see the silliness of that when he put it that way. And that was the end of it.
But then he said you know, this sounds more like ehh… a hurdle, not a real obstacle. I don’t think it was a real reason, it’s really something else.
It was interesting because I really did feel like it was a real reason. But I saw he was right, it was a made-up reason. It was just a way to justify putting it out of my hands. The real reason was, in fact, what Vineeto wrote here to you, which is that I hadn’t unequivocally agreed to my demise. It was just a way to distract from that fact, basically.
Two other key pieces: the major one was we figured out that I had been trying to put myself into actuality, as in I as identity, as a feeling-being, will continue somewhat beyond self-immolation. There were many ways I had justified it, like “Oh but Peter said there was a continuity of consciousness…” and he’s like “Consciousness! You’re translating that into ‘identity’! It’s not identity that continues!” or “But I remember disappearing in a PCE” and he’s like “No you don’t! You are putting yourself into the PCE and spoiling the memory. This is why you are supposed to rememorate it not remember it.” etc.
Basically the way he put it is, what will happen in the universe if I physically die? Essentially nothing except this body is dead (most of it will continue as-is). And the point is that the only difference with self-immolating rather than dying, is that there is a body that will continue being conscious (and not fall into a coma or whatever). But for me it will be exactly the same as if the body physically died, no difference whatsoever for me – total extinction. That put the notion to rest that I would continue in any way after self-immolating.
He also really impressed upon me just how significant this is. It’s not kid stuff. It’s not a playground ride or a roller coaster where you get on it then come back and get off and you’re back to where you were. It is a one-way ride with no return ticket. So long as the enormity of it is not grasped – to which fear and dread are a normal response – then it’s still just being on the playground ride.
Only once this is grasped then can the decision be made to take the leap and continue anyway (otherwise you’re just imagining yourself to be on a cliff but you’re really on a flat ground, and you don’t see the edge to jump off of but only think you do). So you have to actually get to the edge of the cliff (seeing the enormity of the extinction) and only then you can decide to jump.
And that decision to jump, self-immolation doesn’t happen right then – it takes a little longer, which is the final, constantly-accelerating, out-from-control process which Geoffrey experienced for about a week. But he said the experience after jumping is one of constantly accelerating, and also no dread afterwards, the dread part (“wall of fear”) only happens before.
Whether there are different flavors of out-from-control that we have been experiencing or they are different things entirely, and/or figuring out what to call all this, could be an interesting exercise, and maybe of value later, but for now whatever it is, it’s clear we hadn’t done that jump Geoffrey talked about here off the cliff.
In any case the main take-aways for me from the trip was A) see that I really will disappear entirely, B) see the enormity and significance of this (the stakes are indeed high), C) stop kidding myself with fake hurdles that feel real, it really (for me at this point) is all avoidance tactics to avoid facing the real thing, which is the total extinction of it. In short, go up to the edge of the cliff, see if I really want it, then joyfully/gaily/cheerfully (not seriously) jump/traverse the wall of dread/whatever the metaphor, do whatever you can to do it, and then extinction will be nigh.
I write it here to you so you can see if you recognize any of it in your own experience and to help you proceed as well.
Thank you for this Claudiu and I’m looking forward to reading more about the trip. Come to think of it I could have met you there since I’m only in England, perhaps next time .
I will consider further what you wrote as nothing stood out immediately/obviously.
There is certainly inaction in terms of proceeding towards self immolation currently, which is linked to having tried all the doors ‘I’ could find so far. But as you say perhaps ‘I’ am looking for a door which leads to somewhere where ‘I’ continue existing in some obscure manner, perhaps it is because ‘I’ am not looking for the door which leads to ‘my’ extinction.
Which is quite funny to think of it that way, maybe that door isn’t so hard to find after all, it’s more that ‘I’ am not looking for the door marked “extinction”, just the doors that allow ‘me’ to continue ‘being’ a little longer.
OK so I have some more time to write this afternoon so let’s dig into this one
What I will write below will be quite “stream of consciousness” style so we will see how much remains fit for consumption haha :
So the reasoning was not so much that resolving the ‘planner and schemer’ would be what ends up in ‘my’ self-immolation. Rather it was that currently seeing no other direction to go in ‘I’ had retreated(?) back to the “in the meantime business”, to see what else could budge. That resolving the ‘planner and schemer’ would allow ‘me’ to remain in gay abandon, this seemed the only sensible thing for ‘me’ to do at this point.
So yes I do recall having these kinds of feelings, it was around the time when ‘I’ was contemplating abandoning ‘humanity’. This kind of thing does not feature anymore though. It is clear that actual freedom is available and it is possible, that ‘I’ do not have to be a special ‘me’ in order for it to happen.
Yes in the same way this ‘planner and schemer’ is not the ultimate obstacle, this is clear. It is rather a weed that can be plucked out on the way there. Although I can see that this game ‘I’ could play forever, if ‘I’ am 99.97% out of the way then ‘I’ will find that extra 0.1%, and then another 0.001% etc
So I never thought or felt that this was the real reason why ‘I’ had not self-immolated yet, rather that this ‘planner and schemer’ was getting in the way of remaining in gay abandon, living in gay abandon is the best that ‘I’ have found so far - both in terms of enjoyment and appreciation for ‘me’ as well as bringing ‘me’ closer to ‘my’ eventual goal of allowing self-immolation to happen.
Yes this seems a major feature, this sense that there will be some kind of continuity for ‘me’. But again it does not seem that ‘I’ am under the impression that this is the case, and neither does this bring up any intense feelings of fear or dread anymore. I do remember going through a period of these intense feelings - perhaps the past few months - but this has now ceased also.
So yes to sum all this up it seems that ‘I’ have already done the rounds exploring all of the above, there is nothing more to be gained there it seems. As such the only thing that seems to make sense is to remain in gay abandon and that whatever happens from that point is not of ‘my’ doing.
The main point is not the specifics of the objection but rather that it was just a distraction from the real obstacle, which is not acquiescing to go extinct. I could throw up minor hurdles infinitely and resolve each of them, but it wouldn’t address the actual obstacle, which is the extinction part. So it’s more about the pattern rather than the specific objection, if that makes sense. If there seems to be nothing else to do then I suppose might as well look to weed out the minor objections, but it’s to draw your attention to the bigger picture so you can see the pattern if that makes sense.
The me thinking there will be continuity for me was more specific to me, but what I wanted to draw your attention to was the enormity of extinction, the high stakes of it, and that this needs to be faced. I think you have sort of brushed this aside rather than engaging with it – if you really had fully resolved it all then it would be having jumped off the cliff, the constantly-accelerating out-from-control process. So I think there is more there. But I can’t know for sure what is the case for you, of course, it just seems worth re-emphasizing at least this once more
From what I understand, once I fully actually acquiesce that all of me will go extinct and agree to this, there is no turning back from there, no more escape hatches, no more “Is it really safe to stop planning?”, no more “parenthesis periods”, just like an actual free fall level of acceleration (you can’t stop a free fall even if you spread your arms out wide)
There is more to it in other words!! Can you really say that’s what your experience has been like all this while? If not then it’s just clear there is something more to it, that is possible to be experienced[*], to think there is not more would be to be resting on your laurels. Maybe remaining in gay abandon is all it will take but then what is it taking you out of remaining in gay abandon? Isn’t it the irrevocable extinction aspect of it? It is for me at least!
[*] The * is just to say that it doesn’t seem required, I don’t think Grace went through this nor the woman of Indian descent who was free within 24 hours of landing, but it’s something that exists in human consciousness or that is possible in the psyche, so it could be a useful direction to go in.
That without ‘me’ there will be a lack of excellence, that ‘I’ am needed to excel. But this is also slowly melting away as I can see that all those faculties which allow this body to excel in whatever endeavour, ‘I’ only get in the way of them functioning smoothly.
and still made further progress, in fact even easier now because as above those various faculties required to perform can function even smoother.
I will try to explain a little more what has been going on on ‘my’ end perhaps it will clarify further or perhaps it will turn out to be another card prestidigitatiously manifested 
.