Like in the Out From Control video…you are adding to the suffering by staying
1 Like
Kuba: So I was speaking with Sonya last night about my reluctance to abandon ‘humanity’. Initially it seemed like a selfish thing to do, to allow oneself utter freedom whilst ‘others’ are ‘back there’ suffering. This created the impression that the caring thing was to remain and to continue offering help from within ‘humanity’.
Hi Kuba,
Ha, feeling being ‘Vineeto’ had similar deliberations –
VINEETO: It reminds me of the story of the philosopher’s cave (I think it was Kant) – everyone is huddled in a cave, living in imagination and considering the outside world as very, very dangerous. One person has gone outside the cave and reports that it is delightfully safe out here. Kant then suggests that this one person should go back into the cave to convince others that it is safe to leave.
I sometimes think that I have to ‘feel’ where the other is coming from, in order to communicate – and whooshsh, I am back in the muddle of emotions, beliefs and collective fantasies. Well, slowly, slowly, after a hundred failures I start to grasp that there is no point in going back into Mr. Kant’s cave… (note: It was in fact Plato’s story from The Republic). (Actualism, Vineeto, AF List, Alan-b, 6.2.1999).
Kuba: But it very quickly became clear to us that no actual benefit would happen as the result of ‘me’ remaining. Even helping others whilst remaining an identity is only made trickier, not only because it can be emotionally turbulent but also because it is experienced as ‘dirty’ by the others.
Offering help whilst outside of the human condition is completely free from any pathos and so not only is it more effective but it comes without all the ‘dirt’.
Sonya mentioned that in fact it is the other way around, that ‘I’ remain to help from the ‘inside’ only to assuage ‘my’ own feelings. All those feelings of guilt are designed to get ‘me’ right back into the herd where ‘I’ belong.
Exactly. Once you recognize the pattern it is easier to decline sooner rather than later. There is no other reason than the instinctual passion to remain within the herd “where ‘I’ belong”. The feelings of guilt are only one of the possibly many tricks of ‘me’ to achieve this objective.
Kuba: Indeed it is as if ‘I’ am a cattle, where ‘I’ cannot find any action within ‘myself’ that would exist completely outside of the ‘herd’. ‘I’ and the ‘herd’ are inextricably linked. It’s interesting because I have abandoned ‘humanity’ to the extent that I have virtually eliminated the social identity. But there is a much more fundamental aspect of what it means to be ‘one of many’. It goes deeper than just the beliefs and values that were taught to ‘me’ by society. [emphasis added].
Even though you may or may not be correct when you say “I have virtually eliminated the social identity”, you are certainly correct in your observation that “‘I’ and the ‘herd’ are inextricably linked”, because belonging to humanity is an instinctual passion, and as such “it is impossible to separate the whirlpool or the eddy (the vortex) from the swirling stuff which is the cause of it”.
• [Richard]: Put expressively the affective feelings swirl around forming a whirlpool or an eddy (which vortex is the ‘presence’, the ‘spirit’, the ‘being’): mostly peoples experience ‘self’ as being a centre, around which the affective feelings form a barrier, which centre could be graphically likened to a dot in a circle (the circle being the affective feelings) which is what gives rise to the [spiritual] admonitions to break down the walls, the barriers, with which the centre protects itself.
Those people who are self-realised have realised that there is no ‘dot’ in the centre of the circle … hence the word ‘void’. (Richard, AF List, No. 25a, 10 June 2003).
I put it in that expressive way because it is not possible to separate out the feeler from the very feelings he/she is – just as it is impossible to separate the whirlpool or the eddy (the vortex) from the swirling stuff which is the cause of it as, for example, a whirlpool or an eddy (a vortex) of water or air is the very swirling water or air (the one is not distinct from the other) – hence ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’.
If you have followed all the above thus far you will find the following informative:• [Co-Respondent]: ‘So the feelings are innative to the human being, that means they are actual. Instead the feeler is a real entity, but not actual.
• [Richard]: ‘… just because the genetic-inheritance of the instinctual passions is actual – deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), being a nucleic acid in which the sugar component is deoxyribose, is a chemical substance – does not necessarily mean that a feeling engendered by that genetic software programme, such as the feeling of fear for example, is actual – any more than the fearer it automatically forms itself into by its very occurrence is actual – especially as you go on to say that the feeler is a real entity but not actual (which implies that the fearer is not the fear – as in ‘I’ am not ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are not ‘me’ – which, at the very least, smacks of denial if not detachment/ disassociation or even full-blown disidentification from one’s roots).
Now, I could go on from this to say that the feeling is a movement, a motion, and not a thing, as there is no such happening as a stationary (static) feeling and that it is this very movement or motion of the feeling in action when it occurs which automatically forms the feeler (such as in the whirlpool of water/air analogy above) but, again, it would be far more fruitful if you were to intimately examine all this, by feeling it out for yourself rather than just thinking about it, and if you were to actually do so – literally feel it for yourself – you will surely find out, just as ‘I’ did all those years ago, that you are your feelings (as in ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings) and your feelings are you (as in ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’).
The actualism method is an experiential method … not an intellectual method (an analytical method, a psychological method, a philosophical method) or any other self-preserving method of inaction. (Richard, AF List, No. 44e, 9 Oct 2003).
[emphases added]. (Richard, AF List, No. 25g, 1 Dec 2004).
This also answers @Andrew’s hypothetical musings if the ‘self’ is independent from the feeler and can be separated out and treated like a buffet to choose a particular ‘self’. (link) The whole affair is an exercise in dissociation to ensure that ‘I’ remain as ‘I’ am. For instance, to be naïve, requires to be ruthlessly honest with oneself, which then gives access to sincerity (genuine, originally referred to a plant which was of pure stock) and is the key to naiveté. To allow naiveté is to be like a child again (with adult sensibilities), to be ingenuous, simple and unsophisticated and to be what you are rather than what (internalized) other people want you to be. Hence being ruthlessly honest with oneself is an unavoidable prerequisite.
Kuba: Which means that it has to be the solid experience of the actuality of others which offers that something outside of ‘humanity’, a motivation that allows ‘me’ to do something different than simply circling back to the herd. (link)
Yes, though I would call it ‘experiencing the other as a person in their own right’, because “the solid experience of the actuality of others” requires an ongoing PCE. The very fact that feeling beings bemoan the dearth of actually free people indicates that ultimately nothing less will do in regards the actual caring they are looking for.
Cheers Vineeto
5 Likes
Fascinating…I am the herd…a new delcious meal to contemplate!
2 Likes
Haha yes so even if ‘I’ really wanted to help ‘I’ am simply not good enough as ‘I’ am incapable of delivering the actual caring they are looking for. So looks like that one can now have a big line drawn through it, as it is done 
3 Likes
Hehe yes I was going to write a similar story of the cattle escaping the herd but then hanging back to help the rest 
3 Likes
Richard had already given all the clues from the animal kingdom - the trick is to make a once in a lifestyle decision like a honeybee whilst being attracted to actuality like a moth to the flame…all the while feeling like a rat deserting the sinking ship 
5 Likes
All in the aim of becoming a toothless tiger! 
4 Likes
I can see the above is what I have been missing in my general proceedings. What has been happening is that ‘I’ would come so close to self-immolation and then inevitably the instinctual force for ‘self’ survival would come to the fore. Not knowing how to proceed through this ‘I’ would instead plant a flag where ‘I’ was and set up camp there. This is where instead of proceeding forward ‘I’ would go back to belonging. Trying to get permission from ‘humanity’ rather than venturing on ‘my’ own. So it was just a big game designed to assuage the fear that was keeping ‘me’ in place, the fear that is ‘me’.
I can see there is absolutely no way around the fact that ‘I’ proceed towards ‘my’ extinction on ‘my’ own. But now ‘I’ have a very handy tool which is turning this fear into thrill. Actually at times it is way more than just fear, it is full blown existential angst. In the past this existential angst would always succeed in keeping ‘me’ in place. Yet I can see now that this existential angst is ‘my’ very blood supply and what is more ‘I’ am now able to proceed into it, without backing out.
This advice about turning fear into thrill I have heard before and yet I never did anything with it, in a sense ‘I’ wanted to keep the fear as it was because ‘I’ thought that ‘I’ could resolve it, like ‘I’ resolved any other aspect of the human constitution.
But this existential angst cannot be resolved in that way, ‘I’ cannot resolve ‘myself’. What ‘I’ can do is turn any fear into thrill and proceed right through it, in this way ‘I’ can allow awareness to penetrate into the very depths of ‘my’ being.
Doing this earlier I could see that this existential angst is exactly what keeps ‘me’ in existence, this drama is exactly what ‘I’ am.
The funny way I first tested out the effectiveness of this tool was when I came across a scary instagram reel, like a short horror movie. Usually when I watch horrors I am kinda watching with the eyes ready to shut, this is exactly how ‘I’ was previously experiencing that existential angst, with ‘me’ ready to recoil for ‘safety’ at any moment.
But I gave it a go, eyes wide open, total attention and readiness to turn any fear right into thrill, and it worked a treat!
What I noticed immediately is that the very energy of the fear is converted/fuelling the energy of the thrill, more fear → more thrill. Yet the energy of thrill is like a higher gear, it does not have this propensity to recoil but rather it proceeds forward and it can be utterly exhilarating to do this, because this is where courage exists, this is where nothing can hold ‘me’ back.
In fact I am now welcoming any fear that comes up as a sign that I am proceeding in the right direction, it means ‘I’ am daring to proceed on ‘my’ own. Whereas if ‘I’ am experiencing other feelings such as sorrow or guilt or what have you, then ‘I’ know ‘I’ have stopped in ‘my’ tracks and now ‘I’ am stuck right where ‘humanity’ is.
5 Likes
Wierd that this is actually a sign of progress lol but it’s starting to click that ‘I’ will never become actually free. What I observed in myself recently is that this existential angst (which I mentioned in my previous post) usurped the goal of actual freedom and instead turned it into a possible salvation for ‘me’.
This took some doing to locate and see for what it is, because actual freedom is and has been the number 1 goal in ‘my’ life, the most important thing by a landslide. It makes sense now why ‘I’ was willing to “suffer in the name of ‘actual freedom’” rather than enjoying and appreciating each moment again (no matter what).
This is because ‘I’ perverted the goal to become something that could be a salvation for ‘me’, something that would save ‘me’ from that existential angst. The only way I was able to see this clearly was going into that existential angst, I noticed that all these fantasies revolved around physical death before ‘I’ become actually free. It was as if ‘my precious’ was being ripped away from ‘me’, against ‘my’ will. I asked myself this question today - what is it that I am most afraid of, and the answer was unequivocally physical death before becoming actually free. So there it was - actual freedom as something for ‘me’, to save ‘me’ from that existential angst.
Then the realisation that ‘I’ can never become actually free anyways, so this goal of freedom for ‘me’, of a salvation for ‘me’ is only locking ‘me’ in place. ‘I’ will then stay forever “on the road” rather than actually arriving at actual freedom (sans the identity) for ‘I’ will not relinquish ‘my’ precious salvation. ‘I’ will choose to remain forever journeying as an ‘actualist’ rather than allowing ‘my’ extinction now.
Of course how could ‘I’ sacrifice ‘myself’ altruistically if deep down ‘I’ am trying to ensure ‘my’ salvation.
Seeing this has been shifting things in a very deeply sincere and magical way, ‘I’ cannot arrive at ‘my’ goal and yet ‘I’ can gift it for this body, that body and every body. And instead of trying to attain salvation for ‘myself’ and thus remaining forever, ‘I’ can accept all of the above and agree to ‘my’ extinction now, thus releasing ‘my’ burden.
It’s like after a lifetime of trying to force a square peg into a round hole ‘I’ finally admit that “it’s not gonna fit”
4 Likes
Well this one reached a truly dramatic crescendo whilst travelling back to the UK . I have always had a slight fear of flying however this was never an issue. However this time around after finding out about the recent plane crash in Korea I made a beast out of this like no other.
Actually I am not sure which part is to do with this overall fear of flying and which part is as @Vineeto wrote - “I can well understand from memory how inventive ‘I’ can be, when ‘my’ existence is more and more demonstrably at stake”, I guess it is ultimately one and the same thing.
Either way I found myself in a weird place, on one hand I seem to be so close to going all the way, on the other hand I realise that ‘I’ will never become actually free anyways as it is ‘me’ that has to die and then on the 3rd hand ‘I’ am convinced that this time around ‘I’ am going to die on this plane, and not just psychically but physically - again can ‘I’ really tell the difference anyways?
Now it is a long journey back to the UK, 3 planes and about 25 hours of flying in total, plenty of time for ‘me’ to experience this complete dread at what is apparently going to happen any second. Before setting my foot on the plane I had already set the intention to do the below no matter what :
• [Richard]: ‘A deep feeling of dread, the abject intuition of impending doom, is fraught with foreboding, be it a grim, dire, or awful presage, and this intensely apprehensive trepidation is symptomatic of the existential angst (the anguish of the essential insecurity of being a contingent ‘being’) which underpins all suffering. As such an occasion of profound dread is an opportune moment to plumb the depths of ‘being’ itself (‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being) … rather than avoidance through realisation of the portentous event as all manner of phantasmagoria can be manifested by such evasion. With pure intent one can enable a movement into the existential angst, rather than despairingly grasping at doomsday straws, which movement facilitates the bright light of awareness being shone into the innermost recesses of ‘my’ presence … which is ‘presence’ itself.
Such an active perspicacity in ‘my’ moment of reckoning will reveal that ‘presence’ itself feeds off ‘my’ fear – it is its very life-blood as it were – and this functional acuity brings an abrupt end to its nourishment. Whereupon all-of-a-sudden one finds oneself on the other side of the wall (to keep with the ‘cornered’ analogy for now) with the hitherto unseeable doorway to freedom closing behind one … and one is walking freely in this actual world where one has already always been living anyway.
All what happened was that upon ‘my’ exposure dissolution occurred and the Land of Lament sank without a trace.
And this is what ‘I’ did, on the 3rd plane something shifted, indeed I saw that “‘presence’ itself feeds off ‘my’ fear – it is its very life-blood as it were”. It was as if that fear (that is ‘me’) would ‘fold on itself’ and create something like a feedback loop that could rise through fear all the way to utter terror and dread. This “feedback loop” seems to be what keeps ‘me’ in place as a self.
When this was seen it was as if out of the 2 items which were required for this feedback loop, 1 was taken away. All of a sudden what I previously experienced as this unmovable core of fear right in the chest region all of a sudden became kind of airy, so much so that I had the urge to laugh, like I could laugh it out of my chest for good.
This is certainly no self-immolation and in general all very weird stuff However since then something has shifted, whereas before actuality seemed to be ‘out there’ like this other dimension I would have to enter. Now it seems right here now, with the flimsiest bits of ‘me’ keeping reality in place and thus blocking what is already always here now. It seems so utterly ordinary on one hand, like “of course I am here as this body where I have always been” and then at the same time there is this exquisite purity and a magical ambience. It seems so close (as it is already always here now) that all I have to do is accept that invitation to the party, for good.
There is a quote from Richard that reminds me of this but I cannot for the life of me find it! He explains that he meets the same people, things and events that others do, as if nothing has happened and yet something has changed irrevocably, in that there is an immaculate perfection and purity permeating all of existence.
So it is as if self-immolation would simply clean that last dirty bit, then I am here where I have always been, all this time. Without that last layer of dirt the perfection and purity (which has been here all this time) can now be lived. Then I have joined the party.
7 Likes
In fact this seems so close that I can see how someone could delude themselves to think this is actual freedom, how something like an actuality mimicking ASC could come from this experience, or perhaps it is one already? Either way it’s certainly not actual freedom, that I am sure of. We have had enough warnings not to get deluded again.
4 Likes
This one is a classic to me. Drama seems to be the main human currency. Everyone in both the real world and the spiritual world enjoys it in various ways.
The Bodhisattva manifestation is particularly absurd because to end suffering you need suffering as an external raw material to be internally manufactured into enlightenment.
In my case, and probably yours, we perceive and utilize drama through our male identities and proclivities. I’ve caught myself falling in many traps like the following one: if my girlfriend is suffering, often there’s a perverse part of me that is kind of happy about that particular event. Why? Because that way I can bring my good old problem solving hammer to hit it with. Here “I” shine with all my actualist and psychological insights to solve her issues even if uninvited.
In contrast, only once, weeks ago after some very particular contemplations, I can recall an instance in which the performative part (the one that wants to show off/teach/save others) was completely absent, and the “it just makes sense” part was present, as Geoffrey puts it.
It was a very weird experience because the self-immolation, altruistic or caring intentions weren’t an abstract idea, but something organically lived as the natural answer, and that I felt on board with very integrally and straightforwardly. Or so I felt (not making any claims ;P).
Anyway, I think that from Geoffrey’s report and others like Richard’s seminal question of "what am I in relation to other people?’ are key factors to consider and benchmark.
3 Likes
Haha yes this is a funny proclivity isn’t it, all back to front. Similarly ‘I’ might fight with another member of the group in order to establish ‘myself’ as the best ‘helper’. Once this kinda game is seen for what it is (desperate ploy to continue belonging) then it is almost comical. I had this image (using the cattle metaphor) of 1 cow trampling another, even willing to kill another if that’s what it takes, just to establish itself as the most virtuous in the herd. Like “get out of the way fool, I’m going to help this time!”.
As much as people wish to make morality into this ultimately pure and infallible thing the fact is that this back to front nature is what morality is all about, there is no way to extract a pure morality that would exist independently of these handicaps.
2 Likes
Kuba: Now it is a long journey back to the UK, 3 planes and about 25 hours of flying in total, plenty of time for ‘me’ to experience this complete dread at what is apparently going to happen any second. Before setting my foot on the plane I had already set the intention to do the below no matter what :
• [Richard]: ‘A deep feeling of dread, the abject intuition of impending doom, is fraught with foreboding, be it a grim, dire, or awful presage, and this intensely apprehensive trepidation is symptomatic of the existential angst (the anguish of the essential insecurity of being a contingent ‘being’) which underpins all suffering. As such an occasion of profound dread is an opportune moment to plumb the depths of ‘being’ itself (‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being) …
This “feedback loop” seems to be what keeps ‘me’ in place as a self.
Hi Kuba,
What an incredible long journey and what an adventure to “plumb the depths of ‘being’ itself”.
It revealed for you the ‘presence’ which feeds of fear, and yet something was missing which kept you nevertheless “in place as a self”, which only your impeccable sincerity allowed you to recognize as “something like an actuality mimicking ASC” and not the genuine article. (link).
Two things I noticed – one is where Richard recommends finding the thrilling aspect of fear and stay with –
Richard: Usually the frightening aspect dominates and obscures the thrilling aspect: shifting one’s attention to the thrilling aspect (I often said jokingly that it is down at the bottom left-hand side) will increase the thrill and decrease the fright as the energy of fear shifts its focus and changes into a higher gear … and, as courage is sourced in the thrilling part of fear, the daring to proceed will intensify of its own accord. (link)
The second aspect which was missing, and they are closely related, is altruism, which will make the exploration into fear both thrilling and exhilarating –
Richard: Now, it is ‘me’ who is responsible for an action that results in ‘my’ own demise – without really doing the expunging itself (and I am not being tricky here) – as it is ‘me’ who is the initiator of bringing about this sacrifice in that ‘I’ deliberately and consciously, and with knowledge aforethought from a pure consciousness experience (PCE), set in motion a ‘process’ that will ensure ‘my’ demise (‘I’ do not really end ‘myself’ in that ‘I’ do not do the deed itself for ‘I’ cannot end ‘myself’). What ‘I’ do, voluntarily and intentionally (cheerfully and blessedly), is press the button which precipitates a, oft-times alarming but always thrilling, momentum which will result in ‘my’ irrevocable ‘self’-immolation in toto. What one does is that one dedicates oneself to the challenge of being just here, right now, as the universe’s experience of itself … peace-on-earth is the inevitable result because it is already always existing (‘I’ was merely standing in the way of it being apparent).
The act of initiating this ‘process’ is altruism, pure and simple: it is a rather curious decision – a decision the likes of which has never been made before nor will ever be made again – that it is imperative it be ‘me’ who will evince the final and complete condition which will deliver the goods so longed for by humanity for millennia … whereupon that thrilling momentum takes over and one realises one has embarked already (and once that impetus gets going one cannot ‘un-set’ the pace).
There is no pulling back – which is why most people do not want to set it in motion – because once one has started one cannot stop. It is a one-way trip – that is the thrilling part of it – […] [emphases added]. (link)
Only you can know how to find the missing ingredient, and I know from your reports so far that you will leave no stone unturned to find it.
There is a quote from Richard that reminds me of this but I cannot for the life of me find it! He explains that he meets the same people, things and events that others do, as if nothing has happened and yet something has changed irrevocably, in that there is an immaculate perfection and purity permeating all of existence.
Is this the quote you are looking for? –
Richard: With apperception operating more or less continuously in ‘my’ day-to-day life, ‘I’ find it harder and harder to maintain credibility. ‘I’ am increasingly seen as the usurper, an alien entity inhabiting this body and taking on an identity of its own. Mercilessly exposed in the bright light of awareness - apperception casts no shadows - ‘I’ can no longer find ‘my’ position tenable. ‘I’ can only live in obscuration, where ‘I’ lurk about, creating all sorts of mischief. ‘My’ time is speedily coming to an end, ‘I’ can barely maintain ‘myself’ any longer. -
The day finally dawns when something irrevocable happens inside the brain. In an ecstatic moment of being present, ‘I’ expire. ‘I’ am extirpated, rubbed out. ‘I’ cease to exist, permanently. […] Something irrevocable happens and everything is different, somehow, although everything stays the same physically … with the outstanding exception of a perfection and purity permeating all and everything. Something has changed, although it is as if nothing has happened … except that the entire world is transformed into a magical fairy-tale-like playground full of incredible joy and delight that is never-ending. ‘My’ demise was as fictitious as ‘my’ apparent ‘presence’. I have always been here, I realise, and that ‘I’ only imagined that ‘I’ existed. (Richard’s Journal, Article Eighteen, also: here)
Cheers Vineeto
4 Likes
Thank you @Vineeto,
Yes it does seem that those 2 ingredients (altruism and thrill) were missing and so as much as the experience was useful - in that it showed me that something can happen - there was always going to be a ‘me’ of some description still coming out on the other side.
I can see how those ingredients are linked in that once altruistically set in motion ‘I’ am heading towards extinction with the entirety of ‘my’ being, then there is only thrill left as there is no longer a way to back out.
It seems that the missing ingredient is the fact that ‘I’ am still not fully committed, there is certainly sincerity there during those attempts so it is not like ‘I’ am pretending but it is almost as if deep down ‘I’ expect ‘myself’ to come back. Even if ‘I’ am 99% committed that last 1% is enough to keep ‘me’ in existence. It’s as if it hasn’t yet fully clicked what self-immolation would entail, some aspect of doubt (no matter how small) that says “you couldn’t possibly do it, it’s not possible, it would be too good to be true” etc.
Which in itself is that force of ‘me’ that will do anything to procrastinate, as once it is happening then it is too late to back out. Even writing this now that decision seems right here, but ‘I’ know that if ‘I’ am to take that route then it will actually be happening now. So ‘I’ am invested in believing that it cannot happen as a way to procrastinate. ‘I’ can throw up these half attempts and it’s a great self-fulfilling prophecy for ‘me’ to ‘prove’ that “it cannot happen”.
Indeed it is as Richard said to you in the Out from control DVD - “It is the easiest thing in the world and the hardest thing in the world”. I can see how easy it would be and yet it seems ‘I’ will always find that 1% that will allow ‘me’ to ensure that it is a return ticket. And the tricks that ‘I’ get up to in order to play this game are truly inventive and always plentiful.
Is this the quote you are looking for? –
So I see that I actually fused 2 quotes together in my head, the one you included was one half and the other was :
There is an actual world that lies under one’s very nose … I interact with the same people, things and events that you do, yet it is as if I am in another dimension altogether.
5 Likes
This is an interesting one, I can see this doubt that I experience says exactly the opposite, that it could not possibly be ‘me’, that ‘I’ am not good enough etc. And there is a dichotomy there where ‘my’ humility (that doubt in disguise) has the effect of keeping ‘me’ in place. Whereas to contemplate doing as per the quote there is this fear of becoming an utter megalomaniac.
Funny how in reality it is all back to front, this highly prized humility will keep suffering going on forever and a day. Whereas it will label ‘my’ altruistic self-sacrifice as megalomaniacal in order to keep ‘me’ back where the herd is.
Indeed ‘humanity’ will not let anyone escape.
3 Likes
This doubt, this “I’m not good enough, no good things ever happen to me” etc has been a very core aspect of my personality through my life. I already investigated this in the past and I found that ‘I’ would actually sabotage things just so that ‘I’ could remain exactly the same, and then ‘I’ could ‘try’ again, sabotage things and have more reason to believe that ‘I’ am not good enough, that ‘others’ have it so easy etc.
An extreme example of this was when I was younger and going through my “wanna be player” phase. I had this strong belief that no girls would ever wish to sleep with me. The crazy thing is that I would go out clubbing and girls would directly approach me to which I would ignore them and then complain at the end of the night that “no good things ever happen to me cos I’m a looser”, you couldn’t make this stuff up lol.
‘I’ was so caught up in this play of feeling a looser and then fantasising about being a winner that ‘I’ would purposefully screw things up so the drama would continue. ‘I’ was simply scared of stepping into unknown territory and so ‘I’ invented this whole drama to remain exactly as ‘I’ was.
2 Likes
Vineeto: it is imperative it be ‘me’ who will evince the final and complete condition which will deliver the goods so longed for by humanity for millennia
Kuba: This is an interesting one, I can see this doubt that I experience says exactly the opposite, that it could not possibly be ‘me’, that ‘I’ am not good enough etc. And there is a dichotomy there where ‘my’ humility (that doubt in disguise) has the effect of keeping ‘me’ in place. Whereas to contemplate doing as per the quote there is this fear of becoming an utter megalomaniac.
Funny how in reality it is all back to front, this highly prized humility will keep suffering going on forever and a day. Whereas it will label ‘my’ altruistic self-sacrifice as megalomaniacal in order to keep ‘me’ back where the herd is.
Indeed ‘humanity’ will not let anyone escape.
Perhaps this common-sense contemplation will help with your present confusion, where neither pride nor humility, neither doubt nor fear can give you an answer –
Richard: The ‘motivation’? Actually coming face-to-face – as a visceral experiencing – with the reality of all the wars and murders and rapes and tortures and domestic violence and child abuse and sadness and loneliness and grief and depression and suicides that are endemic to the human condition.
The ‘goal’? To bring to an end all the wars and murders and rapes and tortures and domestic violence and child abuse and sadness and loneliness and grief and depression and suicides that are endemic to the human condition. (Richard, List B, No. 13, 26 May 1999)
There is nothing “megalomaniac” to sincerely and passionately want “to bring to an end all the wars and murders and rapes and tortures and domestic violence and child abuse and sadness and loneliness and grief and depression and suicides that are endemic to the human condition”.
At this point in your life this is the only intelligent and worthwhile action to do, and I recommend not to rush into any action but to keep this as an open question until it clicks for you –
Richard: …the ‘I’ that was took full responsibility and an action that was not of ‘his’ doing resulted. (Richard, List B, No. 13, 14 June 1999)
You have painted yourself into a corner with an inevitable outcome and I salute your audacity.
Cheers Vineeto
5 Likes
Hehe yes this made me think that me and @claudiu have elected to go slightly different routes towards self-immolation, his seems more like a calm, cool and collected movement towards actuality and mine has been running at each door full pace only to realise its a wall .
5 Likes
This is my experience — there really is only one outcome left. But I got here willingly and with knowledge aforethought so that was the whole point haha
But yea it’s clear no objection will actually last or hold up. It’s not even a matter of pushing or putting ‘more effort’ or doing ‘more’ per se. At this stage it seems more about accepting and understanding what is happening and this is what makes things progress.
A recent gem was in seeing that actually self-immolating is an eminently sensible thing to do. It just makes sense to do it! It’s a positive, beneficial thing to do. It actually does the most I can to resolve the human condition, the madness and sadness in the world. And this is a fact, it will actually do this the best I can — it’s not a self-centric ‘excuse’, it’s the fact of the matter (whether someone enmired in the human condition would recognize it or not). And it’s of benefit to this body, not only from not having to feel bad about anything anymore but also the sheer delight, enjoyment and appreciation that is available.
So it just makes sense to do it. And any feeling or objection that arises is not a stopper or deal-breaker, it’s just the next thing to look at.
So yeah the stage has been set and now it is just a matter of actually doing it. Straightforwardly so, in the past it felt more like it’s a roundabout approach I have to take, almost trying to trick myself into feeling good, avoiding pitfalls etc., with constant pullback into the depths of the human condition, but now it’s really just very straightforward, there is a goal, it is directly in front of me and I just have to go in a straight line towards it haha.
5 Likes