Of course, it’s also freedom to keep that curiosity and creative play going on.
I wonder what would happen if you did run your app experiments?
Conventional wisdom would say it’s a bad idea, however what strikes me is if there’s a compatibility between you, such an experiment may be something she would have also conceived of!
Birds of a feather, etc.
I wonder what schemes and metrics she runs in her mind? What does she judge? How does she go about working out her goals as a ‘female’ ?
Perhaps she also wrote an app. That would be amazing. Haha
If you really want to know about her, she claims to have attained “inner peace”[1] (involves EFT tapping, etc.). Her interest lies in the consciousness domain, which appears to be one reason for her sustained interest in me (we both have talked about emotions in general and actualism in particular).
I originally met her in a café during spring this year, and initiated casual chat only thanks to Vineeto’s encouraging me to be more and more naive (especially with women) instead of continuing to lock myself in an aloof shell. I stumbled upon her from time to time (the last of which involved me being in a particularly delighted mood), and then, months later, … back in November she invited me to hang out. Then I fell in love in December, and along came (upon realization that the attraction may not be reciprocral) the panic. I made a clean break (as I was running out of options regarding the near-constant panic cum near-constant obsessive thoughts about her), and then — once again in response to Vineeto’s message here (oh my!) — I decided to get back to her (to the extent I didn’t believe I’m prepared to, or can, meet—or wait to meet—another woman) with the specific goal of looking at everything that stands in the way of becoming actually free in general and enabling a form of intimacy in particular towards that general goal.
where, in her own words, she’s “mostly happy” unimpacted by vicissitudes of life, like long-term friends leaving. ↩︎
Wow! That’s really cool.
I can see why it is so scary!
Hi Syd,
It looks to me that this recent exploration/drama around intimacy has also exposed your general modus operandi - which this might be worth looking at.
Actually the kind of themes I am observing are standing out to me because I have also played those same games recently.
To paint it with a broad stroke I would say it’s themes around - Intellectualising, elitism and a general uneasiness about the fact that ‘I’ am a feeling being. This kind of MO it seems is particularly alluring to those with a sharp intellect or a particularly analytical bent.
I remember I spoke to Geoffrey on a zoom a while back and we briefly talked about this : Does a sharp intellect / high IQ assist with becoming actually free? And although there was no overall verdict I remember Geoffrey did jokingly mention something - That when intelligent ‘I’ will likely make more bullshit for ‘myself’ (paraphrasing).
And those 3 things (Intellectualising, elitism and a general uneasiness about the fact that ‘I’ am a feeling being) are essentially tactics which ‘I’ use in order to manoeuvre around uncomfortable territory, of course when done for a lifetime these can be particularly difficult to see for what they are and rooted out.
If you were to simplify what has been going on (going by your posts), it is that you fell in love and experienced it’s inevitable rollercoaster, since then you went into various schemes - of eye-watering complexity - in order to avoid those same feelings.
But all this activity is not investigation and neither is it contemplation, it is actually an avoidance tactic.
It seems what is needed (it will likely feel rather tender and maybe even terrifying at times 
) is to bring those uncomfortable/uneasy feelings out from hiding and to simply allow yourself to experience them fully, no grand ‘actualist plan’, no fancy techniques, no high-flying lingo. Just ‘be’ a feeling being, “one of the plebs” as I would have seen it a while back 
(It was painful to be sat in my ivory tower though).
I appreciate the “broad stroke” feedback, Kuba. It is actually quite amazing how there are various people here, with their own unique life history and paths, giving valuable third-party perspective into my reports. It helps me see my blind spots. High IQ can indeed be a hindrance; intelligence originally evolved to serve deception.
Claudiu said similar thing earlier:
But I like the way you put it:
Meanwhile, the affectional feelings have diminished to a bare minimum, where I basically feel fond for her on top of a strong sexual desire to devour her. I can easily envision myself being enraptured just by looking at her, smiling at her, with a lascious gaze tacitly inviting her to participate in that intimacy unfolding in the moment, being playful as the moment welcomes it, all the while being sensitive to how she responds, adapting accordingly.
Reading your post, I realized I have been basically ‘holding on’ to this preferable emotional stable (being visibly sexual, rather than needy or nervous, is more likely to facilitate her own desire?). Which allowed me to ‘ease up’, and let feelings be. Then, I saw fear was hiding in the corner. 
It never was fully hidden of course, as it would pop to surface from time to time. Fear of rejection, basically. Just feelings I’m observing, nothing serioius. Then I saw how this fear is redundant, because it is not going to help me avert the feared thing; if anything it can actually lead to it (proof: my time back in December). The fear is also the flipside of desire … the desire to ‘possess’ her (physically, sexually and emotionally) … they go hand in hand, together. Wow. Anyway, this investigation is ongoing; no rush. But I feel quite good in fact about the upcoming date (~7 hours from now).
Thank you all once again for your responses here!
Just wanted to follow up with investigation of another feeling that popped up — sorrow. I quickly observed that whenever sorrow would arrise, I’d instantly wallow in it. That’s how I (internally) “express” sorrow. Without expressing as such, however, I was able to take a good look at its mechanism. In it, there is a repressed anger (at other person; at that situation) which gets quickly redirected inwards (because it is “wrong” to be angry, especially at women), hence ‘sorrowful’. The anger was about being deprived of ‘stakes’ (playing for keeps). The ‘stakes’ was self-worth. Like she holds the key to my self-worth (again, cf. Richard & Tarin on love); and if she ‘rejects’ me, my self-worth goes out of the window, with her.
I had an internal conversation using common-sense (no longer pushing the feeling away), to see if this is all actually necessary. This fear & sorrow makes me super-serious with her, basically, so how can there be ‘play’? Somewhere along the line I discovered (the long forgotten) naiveté … as in, a zero-stakes sexual & naive play being a better alternative here … and, thus, I get to keep my autonomy (no more self-worth transactions)! It is a nascent discovery right now, but I just wanted to put it out first before it possibly slips out of my mind.
Okay, probably my final reply in this thread.
Continuing the above investigation I located the part of “me” enabling all these feelings. Basically, “I” lack something that “she” provided. This something is pretty nebulous (which evokes the concept of self-worth in the cognitive level), actually - involving validation, affection, sexual validation, etc. And so, when there is a “threat” to this “safety” (e.g. via rejection) I feel scared and then sorrowful because of returning to this “lack”.
This is the crux of the issue. I can also dimly see that the alternative to be naive (see post above), yet I have not been able to make the choice to swing to the naive side. I could see myself see-sawing but the fear kept “me” firmly in current modus operandi.
All the while the above was happening, she texts me saying she’s very tired and could instead meet next week. This is the 3rd time she postponed our meeting this week, so I took that as a sign that she wanted me to move on. And so I did; wished her luck and uninstalled the chat app (Telegram).
This has obviously been hurtful for me (the nature of this feeling is the same as the “root cause” above), but there is now also a stark loneliness. Any real-world tips here to move past this sooner than latter?
I derived immense value from the last two months. A lot of suffering, but also a lot of revelations (and I didn’t let myself taken advantage of, which is a good thing, as I suspected financial motivations). I’m now much more motivated that before in succeeding in actualism. I appreciate that y’all are here. I’m not going to intellectualize or be analytical anymore.
I haven’t made any decision regarding my association with women. I think I’ll continue doing what I was doing before — going about it all on my own (which consideration resulted in the last PCE). If another opportunity arises in future (very rare), I shall stay very vigilant of the bifurcation and apply ‘adult sensibilities’ to the dates[1].
From what I’ve learned, it is best not to wait beyond 2nd date to establish mutual sexual attraction. Else, it will be a waste of time, as was the case with this encounter (2 months!). ↩︎
Hi Syd,
I was reflecting further on this and it really does come down to compatibility. It’s interesting she chose such a “technical and scientific” looking spiritual journey to be on. I remember trying this EFT tapping for 30 min decades ago.
Regarding the sorrow, I found this exact response is part of the package when we really like someone. I remember crying really hard. We anticipate losing them, and it hurts ahead of time.
Having a good cry is a cheat code for feeling better. 
I don’t think that is it. I had been oblivious to the various signs (due to the ‘promise’ of sex & intimacy), but when I look at my notes it is clear that I was taken for a ride. For eg., on first date she casually mentioned that most guys just wanted to go straight for fuck (“triangulation” tactic) which allowed myself to be groomed into becoming a ‘nice guy’ denying my sexual nature! That set the tone for the whole thing. Other times, she talked quite a bit about her financial situation; for one glaring example, when we were sitting on my couch (I was quite vulnerable at this time), she mentioned how she’d like to go to spas, but can only afford to do so once a year … and that she needed some 10k capital for a project she had a mind - after saying these two things she’d turn towards me and look at my eyes maintaining eye-contact for solid 3 seconds.
She also did EFT tapping me on when I was ‘open’ about my emotions (nervousness back in November), which we talked about quite a bit. This was a mistake too, as I should have dealt with these emotions myself with self-honesty. Interestingly, her ‘healing’ dynamics on me only worked to further strengthen my attachment towards her (I remember it to be a seminal event wherein I formed the ‘bond’ with her). Perhaps she knew this?
In the end, I guess I might have been too autistic for her to manipulate (or “use”) me … so I was let go of the “job”.
Meta: While I realize that all of the above helps me “cope” with this situation, these things also actually happened, and given a ‘pattern’ of behaviour (and the full context) I do think there’s a high likelihood her intent was somewhere in this territory (she also has a lot of friends). This is not her fault, but mine: naiveté doesn’t mean gullible; and I was gullible!
It is great to see we menfolk even mention ‘crying’ because I believe these things (vunlerability in general) tend to turn off sexual desire in womenfolk. Yea, crying has worked for me too. In this case, I just talked to some folks downstairs and that really helped. I’m feeling better. I expect to be back to normal in a day or two.
Fwiw, ‘I’ didn’t become whole on my own until I got over the need for another. Then it was OK whether I had another or not.
Hi Syd.
It sounds to me you are doing a good job of navigating it all the best you can.
From what you just wrote, there were many examples I could give from how I was in relationships.
Looks like you are learning and navigating without the wasted decades, haha.
It’s a tough road, but fortunately it’s the main one. Insight, and freedoms “won” on this particular topic are “top shelf”. They flow through to all other areas!
I enjoy your bravery and determination. Thanks for sharing.
Andrew
Hi Syd,
It seems you have got down to some of the nitty-gritty of what is going on. I remember some years ago having this realisation, that it was my desire which was keeping me a slave. Initially it seemed like it was the woman who was at fault, after-all she had the power over me, the power to affect my self-worth etc. But then it was so clear that I was a self-made slave, it was my desire which made it possible for women to dangle various glittering carrots in front of me, and for me to mindlessly follow.
This is nothing new, that men desire sex and women can and do exploit this… Blind-spot . The game-changing thing with actualism is that I can unilaterally step out of this power game. However it does require attending to the fundamental fact - it is my desire which is keeping me a slave.
There was something very nice though that came along with stepping out of this game, which was that I was more able to experience women as fellow human beings, and weirdly enough they also appreciate the fact that it is not possible to make me a slave. After-all that very game which women play is part of the instinctual programming, it does not care for their happiness and deep down they yearn to be free from it also.
Sooo to cut a long story short, by attending to the fact that one is a puppet to one’s own passionate drives one can find not only greater freedom for oneself but also a greater intimacy with the person of the other gender - how neat!
I’m feeling so great right now. I couldn’t be any more clear-headed. Everything that happened, has been very beneficial in the end from actualism standpoint! What a great ‘experiment’!
* cf. the feeling reports in posts 26, 27, 28.
There’s a good chance I’ll start an investigation journal (had a great insight into seriousness as ‘expression’ of feelings), stay tuned.
I’d imagine that by ‘desire’ you do not mean the instinctual passion of sexual desire (which only goes away upon becoming actually free), but rather the kinda of feelings I talked about in post 28 (“This something is pretty nebulous […] involving validation, affection, sexual validation, etc”)? It would be great if you could elaborate on it.
Be careful revealing this to a high IQ cunning identity, for it may readily use it to create a map channelling the aforementioned ‘desire’ towards its desired imagined outcome (union), ha!
The main thing I found enticing about Vineeto’s correspondence with me over the last two years was naiveté. But it was also sullied by this ‘desire’. For those interested in enticing me towards the actual word, it may be worth mentioning that - what I want, more than anything, right now is autonomy. A naive autonomy, of course, can effortlessly lead to intimacy (not only with a “person of the other gender”—be it a desirable one or not—but also with everyone and everything), but that is not something I can “do”.
Hi Syd,
Hmm, I wonder if you have made a mistake here and in the process made desire untouchable. If you were to re-write that same paragraph and use another one of the instinctual passions - which does not disappear until becoming actually free - such as fear, it would make no sense to a practicing actualist.
In effect you would be suggesting that as fear does not disappear until actual freedom then one can only skirt around the edges of fear. But of course this is not so.
You can investigate the very passionate drive of desire, in whichever form it manifests. You can investigate it across all levels, from feeling-fed thought, to feelings themselves and down to the very raw passions as well as various calentures and other atavistic creations. And of course such a thorough exploration and investigation of desire will progressively diminish it’s influence over your life.
That is the whole “getting stuck in” business.
Yes I can relate to this, this has been such a strong yearning in my life too, to have autonomy. Well a good start towards this goal would be looking “under the bonnet” and not leaving anything safe from a critical examination.
That makes clearer sense.
As far as I see now, it is simply a matter of looking into all the feelings & beliefs (no matter what they are) that pop up in day to day life to diminish an ongoing imitation (enjoyment & appreciation) of the PCE.
This is good to hear.
Indeed so. The pure intent of naiveté is so useful here.
Geoffrey said a similar thing here, though the original post (“On another topic”) is private.