Vineeto: Only by allowing to let the experience itself unfold can you learn about its intricacies, the hopes, dreams and beliefs it all entails, its unspoken assumptions on both sides, the psychic push and pull, the interactive power dynamic and the very cunning mechanism of ‘you’ to ‘get out of here as fast as possible’, or, as you say “I don’t think I want to go through this again”.
Rejection and resentment of the topic you want to experientially research interfere with a thorough and possibly enjoyable inquiry where you can be confident about the results you get. So perhaps your first inquiry is about what was so terrible, so frightful in this past experience, and why. (link)
Syd: Hi Vineeto,
Thank you for your considered response. You do know me well so those warnings are much appreciated.
So if it happens I could fall in love again, albeit in lesser intensity perhaps. I’m okay with it — gives me yet another opportunity to look into it, but by then I’d be more prepared so it is all good.
I’ve indeed fallen in love before a handful of times, but since the women would always run for the hills, one way or another, right after my proposing … the feelings would subside soon after. What I experienced back towards end of Nov/ beginning of Dec was special in that she stuck to me, and I got to go through the full rollercoaster of emotions.
I should highlight that I have never written about those experiences in detail here in public. Nor have I written about the full exploration into the ‘resurgences’ of these feelings (Jan 10-20) except the feelings mentioned in the ‘Intimacy’ thread. I’m not sure why you characterize my experiences as “the beginnings of falling in love”. Based on what I’ve experienced I can indeed relate to everything others have written of love. I’m just not sure how comfortable I’m in sharing all of that in public (also, given my unique preferences and predilections I’m unsure if people would empathize anyway). But here’s a recent example –
Syd: (…) The message I sent was something along the lines of asking for FWB arrangement:
Gotta be honest: while the emotional heaviness is gone, the sexual desire is very much still there. I’m not looking for strictly friendship. I enjoy our conversations, I want us to be physical too. Is that something you want too?
I really fought tooth and nail with the actualist because I was afraid of directly asking her this. In the end, I decided to just ask and see what happens – both from her standpoint and my own reaction to it.
Trigger: She basically vanished from that point—no response. This caused a surge of fear, and I was no longer feeling good. (Just feel good, bro - #2)
Hi Syd,
I guess I have to spell it out fully what I mean by “perhaps your first inquiry is about what was so terrible, so frightful in this past experience, and why”. The investigation into this topic needs to go further than merely re-stating that your past experiences with women did not result in the outcome that you wanted, mainly the inclusion of having sex. “She basically vanished from that point” you say and that is the end of your explanation of you “no longer feeling good”. In short, the way you portray it that it was her fault (and all the others), end of story.
But this is not the end of story for an actualist style investigation – to start with, in actualism you acknowledge that you are the only person you can change, and if your contemplation don’t yet reveal where and how you need to change, what lies underneath this present attitude and outcome of situations like this, then you need to dig deeper in your understanding.
Simply resolving to be naïve instead, to rememorate a PCE or “by-pass” or “re-channel” your feelings and passions has not worked and will not work. As Richard put it in the excellent quote Pelagash just posted today (link) –
Richard: Is not ‘understanding’ something the same thing as ‘analysing’ something? To understand something is to intellectually grasp a concept successfully. This may be the activity of ‘I’ thinking as clearly as ‘I’ can possibly think, yet it is not the same clarity as the clear seeing obtained in an insight … and an insight is seeing the fact.
When one sees the fact there is action … and this action is the actualising of the insight so that one’s personality is changed, irrevocably. (…) (Richard, List B, No. 12, 16 Feb 1998a)
You are looking for an actual change, a change in attitude, a change in the originally always ‘self’-centric perspective, a change that originates at the core of your ‘being’, where you are able to be naïve. Richard has described the process to you in detail –
Richard: Reach down inside of yourself intuitively (aka feeling it out) and go past the rather superficial emotions/ feelings (generally in the chest area) into the deeper, more profound passions/ feelings (generally in the solar plexus area) until you come to a place (generally about four-finger widths below the navel) where you intuitively feel you elementarily have existence as a feeling being (as in ‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being … which is ‘being’ itself).
Now, having located ‘being’ itself, gently and tenderly sense out the area immediately below that (just above/ just before and almost touching on the sex centre).
Here you will find yourself both likeable and liking (for here lies sincerity/ naiveté).
Here is where you can, finally, like yourself (very important) no matter what.
Here is the nearest a ‘self’ can get to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’.
Here lies tenderness/ sweetness and togetherness/ closeness.
Here is where it is possible to be the key. (Richard, List D, Syd, 26 May 2009).
In order to “go past the rather superficial emotions/ feelings … into the deeper, more profound passions/ feelings” you first need to stop ignoring, objecting to, pushing away, or ‘setting aside’ or by-pass any ‘inappropriate’ of those superficial and profound passions until you can recognize and fully acknowledge them as ‘you’. Only then will you be able to discover there is something further, “where you intuitively feel you elementarily have existence as a feeling being (as in ‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being … which is ‘being’ itself”.
If that discovery is genuine (and not a superficial change of wording, which neither changes your underlying feeling nor the vibes you automatically emanate) then you will experience a change in the way you feel, in your attitude and general outlook, where, for instance, women are no longer prey or objects of sexual desire but likeable fellow human beings to enjoy their company whatever form that may take. Until that change in your ‘being’ happens and can be repeated until it becomes your new way of being, your investigations into “what was so terrible, so frightful in this past experience, and why” have barely scratched the surface.
Here is Kuba’s post again for further, perhaps deeper, appreciation and understanding –
Kuba: This is nothing new, that men desire sex and women can and do exploit this… Blind-spot. The game-changing thing with actualism is that I can unilaterally step out of this power game. However it does require attending to the fundamental fact – it is my desire which is keeping me a slave.
There was something very nice though that came along with stepping out of this game, which was that I was more able to experience women as fellow human beings, and weirdly enough they also appreciate the fact that it is not possible to make me a slave. After-all that very game which women play is part of the instinctual programming, it does not care for their happiness and deep down they yearn to be free from it also.
Sooo, to cut a long story short, by attending to the fact that one is a puppet to one’s own passionate drives one can find not only greater freedom for oneself but also a greater intimacy with the person of the other gender – how neat! (link)
Syd: I was investigating along tangential lines recently. I saw that the various feelings mentioned here all stem from the instinctual passion of desire – not just sexual desire but also the desires ‘stuck atop’ it. Instead of sidestepping or reducing this desire, I can channel[1] it towards beneficial means (…), and this makes those other feelings pretty redundant. (Andrew - #1428)
[1]channel: So no longer wasting the instinctual energy on the thing being desired (in the real-world) … be it sexual ‘conquest’, validation (aka. emotional/ identity conquest), possession, a prop for one’s self-worth, an other-person derived source of meaning in life, or whatever. The “energy” of that desire is now freed for other purposes.
Your tool-tip explanation of what you mean by “channel” is typical buddhistic detachment – reject all worldly desires and desire something else instead. It merely changes the name of the goalpost, not your being. It has nothing to do with what can actually happen, with tangible results, when sincerely being attentive, fully investigating and comprehending the issue at hand. You might want to check out feeling-being ‘Vineeto’s’ detailed writing on “Investigate Feelings”.
Vineeto: Plenty to explore – don’t forget to enjoy and deeply appreciate solving the puzzle that is one of the top mysteries of the human condition.
Syd: Speaking of which, right after sending that last message, I discovered the value of feeling good as baseline (feeling good feels so good compared to what happened before!). I decided to maintain the baseline of feeling good (and everything else – PCEs/ rememoration/ contemplation/… – can happen on the bedrock of feeling good). I’ll write about it after I get to play with it sufficiently over the next few days. (link)
It’s good to have a sound feeling-good base when planning to exchange your face-mask and snorkel for deep-sea diving with a scuba outfit … deep into the human condition. Full text on Richard’s Homepage.
Cheers Vineeto