Basic Freedom, Actual Freedom, ASC?

Actualism
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Continuing the thread from here: Journal de Henry - #995 by scout

I’ve found some quotes from the website, specifically from @geoffrey and @Vineeto, which capture the delineation I’m trying to describe in my post.

Here is a description from Geoffrey after reaching basic freedom:

And a little later, as he was working on “abdicating the guardian”:

This second description aligns with my experiences of purity that felt, at the time, “perfect” - there was no “me” narrating or coloring experience with emotions, and the sensory world was the most rich, splendid, fascinating thing in and of itself. My fear of aging and death disappeared entirely with “me”. Each moment was so enjoyable that it was so blatantly obvious that the meaning of life was purely in the living of it. There was no bubble for me then, nothing to hold onto and no need to hold onto anything; it certainly felt like being “no one” compared to my normal waking reality. And yet, as Geoffrey described, traces of the past walls must have still existed, as I cannot say I had full apprehension of infinity in those moments, and even though I did not perceive a psychological self, my senses still seemed to orient themselves around some central point.

The moments where I did feel in direct contact with infinity reminded me of @Vineeto ‘s experience of transitioning from basic to actual freedom:

As opposed to the events where my experience more aligned with what Geoffrey described, my experiences that have been similar to what Vineeto describes here have been honestly too overwhelming to be enjoyable for the most part. In those moments, I recognized the normal waking “me” (and even the “traces of walls” from previous events that felt like PCEs) as a buffer shielding me from the full intensity of infinitude. In these events, there was no possibility for any trace of walls. There were only the senses of my body; whole, complete, entirely alone and yet inseparable from all of existence. There was no central organizing element to these senses, no spatiality whatsoever- each sense’s signals arose purely known unto themselves from nowhere to no one. Direct experience of the infinitude of all existence (though my body as a conduit of knowing this is entirely finite) came along with this. I don’t think this was an ASC because God is an anthropomorphic notion and there felt like there was literally nothing in me that could project its sense of being onto the universe. The universe is the infinity of existence of which this body is just a tiny experiential prong, and there was no delineation between “my experience” and the sensations of this body being known to itself, so though I am a piece of infinity, for all intents and purposes this finite body is the entirety of what “I” as this life am and thus death will necessarily be absolute, because there was nothing in me to survive beyond the death of the senses.

These experiences have always come with immense agitation and disorientation. Traces of the emotional self must have not evaporated immediately with the spatial center because there was raw, unadulterated panic (made significantly more intense by the absolute lack of buffer) that something had happened that I wouldn’t be able to undo and the body would be stuck in this energetically-overwhelming and orientation-less state, unable to navigate the world. Only in one such experience did the agitation start to calm down enough for the senses to start to recognize that things were okay and actually very complete, and the body was still capable of functioning, but usually the experiences have never lasted long enough that this level of resolution is reached.

Interestingly though, every time “I” booted back up again obscuring that raw perception, it felt abundantly clear to me that “I” am nothing but pain, an uncomfortable fogging of the lens of reality. But it also made ample sense to me why most people distract themselves their entire lives in avoidance of that raw reality, because dropping into that suddenly was the most incomparably overwhelming experience of my life.

If I’m being entirely honest, it hasn’t been super tempting to return there, it really scared me. But what set me on this journey was the prospect of returning to the states of Geoffrey’s description, where the center is almost entirely gone and the splendor and lightness is so apparent. Maybe once I’m there, the step into complete centerlessness would be a far easier leap than the massive jump there from my current waking consciousness; I wonder if the size of this jump is the source of the panic.

But I am traveling largely blind here, I might be misinterpreting these events as being closer to actuality than they are. I’d be very curious to hear your thoughts @Vineeto , whenever you get the chance to read this behemoth of a description (and thank you very much for doing so if you do!)

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Scout: I’ve found some quotes from the website, specifically from Geoffrey and Vineeto, which capture the delineation I’m trying to describe in my post. Here is a description from Geoffrey after reaching basic freedom:

Geoffrey: “The presence of social identity, with regards to infinitude, acts like a centre. Whatever whittling away at it has taken place, this essential feature remains. The centre creates bounded-ness… I can’t imagine what it must be like to face that immense energy without such a wall to hide behind, to have it within one’s body, to be somehow transparent to its workings

And a little later, as he was working on “abdicating the guardian”:

Geoffrey: What is striking when looking at the sky or the horizon is that there is no more bubble, no more dome over me. The bounds that social identity imposed on the universe are gone. Line of sight is open. That faraway wall is no more, which was there even if intellectually known not to exist, like one’s intuition can’t help but believe that a rainbow must end somewhere.
And yet apprehension of infinitude is not complete yet.
It’s a bit like those archaeological sites where you see foundations of houses protruding from the ground, mere squares of stones which show there used to be something like a house there. But there is no house any more. You stand there and look around; there are no walls anywhere. Only stones, here and there, quickly disappearing in the soil. And yet, still something like the trace of past walls … I might indeed say that I’m no different from a rock or a tree; and yet I’m still somewhat different from a ‘distant star’. It’s still a bit too far away. There is still space. (Basic to Full Freedom, 1 July 2024)

Scout: This second description aligns with my experiences of purity that felt, at the time, “perfect” – there was no “me” narrating or colouring experience with emotions, and the sensory world was the most rich, splendid, fascinating thing in and of itself. My fear of aging and death disappeared entirely with “me”. Each moment was so enjoyable that it was so blatantly obvious that the meaning of life was purely in the living of it. There was no bubble for me then, nothing to hold onto and no need to hold onto anything; it certainly felt like being “no one” compared to my normal waking reality. And yet, as Geoffrey described, traces of the past walls must have still existed, as I cannot say I had full apprehension of infinity in those moments, and even though I did not perceive a psychological self, my senses still seemed to orient themselves around some central point.

Hi Scout,

Thank you for the quotes that you say align with your experiences, particular the one from Geoffrey. This description refers to a time when Geoffrey had been basically free for about 5 years (1 July 2024), and describes the course of events when he became free from the ‘guardian’, the social identity in toto.

From that vantage point of being free from the instinctual passions and the identity formed thereof plus being free from the tethers of the social identity (“no more dome over me “) except “something like the trace of past walls”, Geoffrey accurately describes the progressing events as an ongoing actuality.

However, what you report are temporary exceptional experiences which appear to align with Geoffrey’s descriptions apart from being ‘overwhelming’ and ‘scary’ and from which you returned “to my normal waking reality” which you further down describe as “‘I’ am nothing but pain”.

Hence my suggestion in my previous post to you that these may well be experiences, possibly originating from a PCE but then flipping into those of the nature of an ‘actuality mimicking ASC’. In this type of ASC there is neither God nor any religious or spiritual connotations but imaginary features assembled from reports of people describing their experience of an actual freedom. The term “actuality mimicking” should give you at least pause to consider, given that you originally described them as “agitating” and “very, very overwhelming and disorienting” which is clearly an emotional reaction.

Scout: The moments where I did feel in direct contact with infinity reminded me of Vineeto ‘s experience of transitioning from basic to actual freedom:

Vineeto: “The next significant event happened a week after my completion [the abdication of the guardian]. It began with an eerie sensation in the head as if my brain was being operated on whilst being fully conscious. After about 15 minutes or so there was a sensation as if my brain was being scattered throughout the universe. When I recovered from the experience itself enough to find out what actually happened, I noticed that I had lost my centre of reference (a discovery that left me quite disconcerted for about 2 weeks a week) … The direct result of losing the boundaries of my localized reference during this ‘brain-scattering’ event is that I am permanently apperceptively aware of the infinitude of the universe as infinite space, eternal time and perpetual matter.” (Actualism, ActualVineeto, Srinath, #spatial)

Scout: As opposed to the events where my experience more aligned with what Geoffrey described, my experiences that have been similar to what Vineeto describes here have been honestly too overwhelming to be enjoyable for the most part. In those moments, I recognized the normal waking “me” (and even the “traces of walls” from previous events that felt like PCEs) as a buffer shielding me from the full intensity of infinitude. In these events, there was no possibility for any trace of walls. There were only the senses of my body; whole, complete, entirely alone and yet inseparable from all of existence. There was no central organizing element to these senses, no spatiality whatsoever – each sense’s signals arose purely known unto themselves from nowhere to no one. Direct experience of the infinitude of all existence (though my body as a conduit of knowing this is entirely finite) came along with this.

It is no surprise that you describe those experiences as “too overwhelming to be enjoyable” because your introductory sentence says – “the moments where I did feel in direct contact with infinity”, which again points to it not being a PCE, and hence you not actually being “in direct contact with infinity”. Hence what you experienced as “the full intensity of infinitude” would have most likely been the affective veneer the identity is pasting over actuality. (see (link))

Scout: I don’t think this was an ASC because God is an anthropomorphic notion and there felt like there was literally nothing in me that could project its sense of being onto the universe. The universe is the infinity of existence of which this body is just a tiny experiential prong, and there was no delineation between “my experience” and the sensations of this body being known to itself, so though I am a piece of infinity, for all intents and purposes this finite body is the entirety of what “I” as this life am and thus death will necessarily be absolute, because there was nothing in me to survive beyond the death of the senses.

As I said above, in this type of ASC, ‘actuality mimicking ASC’, there is neither God nor any religious or spiritual connotations and your statement that “I don’t think this was an ASC because God is an anthropomorphic notion” looks like an after-the-event-thinking and logical deduction. Even your report that “I am a piece of infinity” is not a description of actuality. If you think the word ‘actuality mimicking ASC’ doesn’t fit, let me know which word works better for you – it is certainly not a PCE.

‘Vineeto’ had several altered states in ‘her’ early years of practicing actualism, and they were quite powerful and convincing when they happened (link), although ‘she’ had no actualists’ records, except Richard’s, to provide extra content to this ‘perfection’ experience.

Look, I am not writing this to denigrate or belittle your experiences but to make you aware that the lost, lonely, frightened, and very cunning entity is capable of elaborate deceit which, if undetected, can successfully deter you from recognizing genuine pure intent vs. imagination-fuelled passionate experiences, and lead you on a path to nowhere with “immense agitation and disorientation”. I wish you to succeed to a genuine actual freedom and not be diverted to a state of make-belief, passionate, imaginary experience. Even if the content of such state is informed by actualist writings, it can still be corrupted and adulterated by the identity.

Richard: Wherever there be no underestimating the extent to which a lost, lonely, frightened and very, very cunning feeling-being will go in order to remain affectively-psychically in existence – millions upon millions of years of blind nature’s successful perpetuation of the species via its rough-and-ready instinctual survival passions blindly dictates no other course of action can ever instinctually come about – is where there be far less likelihood of ascribing to nescience that which quite properly has its roots in the visceral wiliness of the wild which has so successfully proliferated the species thus far. (Richard, List D, Alan, Footnote)

It is also important to keep in mind that you cannot become free from being in a PCE, nor by the ‘self’ “evaporating” in PCEs, but by naively enjoying and appreciating being alive, so much so that you become naiveté itself and give up the controls. Then one is able to make a once-in-a-lifetime deliberate and conscious decision to willingly and irremunerably ‘self’-immolate in toto. The doorway to an actual freedom has the word ‘extinction’ written on it, which can only happen while ‘I’ and ‘me’ are not in abeyance.

Scout: These experiences have always come with immense agitation and disorientation. Traces of the emotional self must have not evaporated immediately with the spatial centre because there was raw, unadulterated panic (made significantly more intense by the absolute lack of buffer) that something had happened that I wouldn’t be able to undo and the body would be stuck in this energetically-overwhelming and orientation-less state, unable to navigate the world. Only in one such experience did the agitation start to calm down enough for the senses to start to recognize that things were okay and actually very complete, and the body was still capable of functioning, but usually the experiences have never lasted long enough that this level of resolution is reached.
Interestingly though, every time “I” booted back up again obscuring that raw perception, it felt abundantly clear to me that “I” am nothing but pain, an uncomfortable fogging of the lens of reality. But it also made ample sense to me why most people distract themselves their entire lives in avoidance of that raw reality, because dropping into that suddenly was the most incomparably overwhelming experience of my life.
If I’m being entirely honest, it hasn’t been super tempting to return there, it really scared me. But what set me on this journey was the prospect of returning to the states of Geoffrey’s description, where the centre is almost entirely gone and the splendour and lightness is so apparent. Maybe once I’m there, the step into complete centerlessness would be a far easier leap than the massive jump there from my current waking consciousness; I wonder if the size of this jump is the source of the panic.
But I am traveling largely blind here, I might be misinterpreting these events as being closer to actuality than they are. I’d be very curious to hear your thoughts Vineeto , whenever you get the chance to read this behemoth of a description (and thank you very much for doing so if you do!)

I am pleased to read that you have hesitation to return to those “states”, and also that you are wondering if you “might be misinterpreting these events as being closer to actuality than they are”. From my vantage point they are not close to actuality, made apparent by the various feeling-words you used in your honest descriptions. What you called “raw reality” which causes you “raw, unadulterated panic” is not at all what the actual world is like, as Claudiu already demonstrated to you in the descriptions of his PCEs.

You wrote in your previous post –

Scout: because the consciousness experiences I’ve had that mostly closely align with the state you and Richard describe – where the psychological self/centre is completely gone, there are only senses and a direct awareness of infinity – were actually pretty overwhelming. A lot of agitation/ remnants of fear were still present and were experienced very acutely without the buffer of the psychological self, kind of reminiscent of the adjustment period Richard described, and I definitely felt disoriented too. (link)

Here you first say it’s a PCE (how Vineeto and Richard describe it), then there is description of feelings (overwhelming, agitation, fear), then you say there is no psychological self (despite feelings being present), then you felt disoriented. I would say if you recognize that the first statement (it’s a PCE) is incorrect, then point 2 and 4 make sense and point 3 might have been a felt assumption drawn from the first statement.

Hence the way forward is to pay diligent attention to how you feel, so that you can sort out the grain from the chaff. Perhaps a desire to escape from “‘I’ am nothing but pain” is contributing to a hasty classification of the experience? Only you can know how your mind ticks and the closer you pay diligent attention to the details of what is happening the easier it will be to recognize a genuine PCE when it’s happening.

Then you can make an intimate connection and tie a golden thread or clew to that genuine PCE whereby one is sensitive to and receptive of the over-arching benignity and benevolence of the world of the PCE. This way you establish your connection to pure intent, which is essential to distinguish more easily your experience – if it’s a genuine PCEs or an imaginary feeling-fed experience only resembling (not actually being) whatever you have read in actualist literature.

Cheers Vineeto

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Hi Scout,

To add to Vineeto’s excellent answer — I had one very distinctive PCE where I actually apperceived the actually-existing infinitude of the universe. I wrote about it here:

To contrast, here’s the report of your experiences:

I place them here side by side so you can juxtapose clearly the “immense agitation and disorientation” of one report vs the “rich or magic thing”, “intrinsic joy of experiencing”, “ the universe was infinite and that this joy or delight came from that somehow”, “Seemed potentially infinite. Utter joy.” and “the richness-magic-meaning-joy experience” of the other.

In other words, a genuine apperception of the infinitude does not come with agitation and disorientation but rather is more along the lines of the latter.

What you write of “raw, unadulterated panic” sounds very much like ‘me’ responding to the awareness that this infinitude exists and renders ‘me’ meaningless. A sort of existential angst triggered by this realization. Yet it’s not a PCE — it is ‘me’ reacting to and essentially objecting to this, fighting against it as best ‘I’ can by throwing up an aversive fear response.

The PCE itself occurs when ‘I’ am absent, at which point you (now actual you) can experience the full richness and delight that actuality actually is. And then you will wonder what the fuss is about! Up until ‘you’ come back and then start objecting again haha.

I echo what Vineeto wrote at the end: this isn’t to denigrate you or your experiences but rather to help guide so you can make the best use of them.

Cheers,
Claudiu

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Thank you both very much for you thoughtful responses @Vineeto and @claudiu, these are really helpful. I don’t feel denigrated at all; I came to actualism after I started having lots of experiences like these because amidst all the chaotic overlays that existed in both the positive and negative experiences, I recognized the core truth in the writings as aligning with key parts of the experiences. But almost none (maybe none honestly) of my experiences have been fully “clean”, so it’s helpful to talk with people who are deeper into this and help tease apart what is real and what is my psyche resisting reality.

I think part of the reason I ask about this in the first place is because I have felt things going further recently, becoming more and more aware of this quiet on the constant periphery of my experience which, if I start to surrender to it, I find in any given moment that all is good, and my senses take the forefront and become sharper and more enjoyable. But then my mind often snaps back and looks for something “wrong” or distracts me with some other pursuit. So I think my mind clings to these past horrifying experiences as warnings that scary things might await if I go too far and go off the deep end.

But Vineeto you are right in your assessment that I want to escape “‘I’ as pain” and my hyperanalysis and fixation on these experiences is part of it. I am scared of going from my current amount of psychological pain towards more pain too. Your responses are very encouraging that these depths of pain, fear and disorientation are not related to becoming actually free and aren’t necessary parts of getting in touch with reality.

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Also @claudiu, your PCE description reminds me of what some of my friends have reported while taking DMT. I was always jealous because I wanted to have with contact with infinity awareness and unconditional joy too but I always just got terror void :joy:

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Scout: Thank you both very much for you thoughtful responses Vineeto and Claudiu, these are really helpful. I don’t feel denigrated at all; I came to actualism after I started having lots of experiences like these because amidst all the chaotic overlays that existed in both the positive and negative experiences, I recognized the core truth in the writings as aligning with key parts of the experiences. But almost none (maybe none honestly) of my experiences have been fully “clean”, so it’s helpful to talk with people who are deeper into this and help tease apart what is real and what is my psyche resisting reality.
I think part of the reason I ask about this in the first place is because I have felt things going further recently, becoming more and more aware of this quiet on the constant periphery of my experience which, if I start to surrender to it, I find in any given moment that all is good, and my senses take the forefront and become sharper and more enjoyable. But then my mind often snaps back and looks for something “wrong” or distracts me with some other pursuit.

Hi Scout,

You might still be influenced by your previous meditative training in that you blame ‘wrong thoughts’ on the way you feel, when you say – “then my mind often snaps back and looks for something “wrong”“. What most likely alerts you to something being “wrong” is that feeling good has diminished or disappeared. Then you look for the trigger, get back to feeling good (just the basic feeling good) and then you can work out what this “something wrong” is all about be it a habit, a pattern or something else. This is exactly the way, which has worked for many here, how to diminish the psychological pain you so urgently want to escape from.

Scout: So I think my mind clings to these past horrifying experiences as warnings that scary things might await if I go too far and go off the deep end.

These past experience should indeed be a warning, especially if you are contemplating taking DMT to rush into the next out-of-the-ordinary experience. The point is that there is already a groove, a mental-emotional highway, so to speak, which your mind presently gravitates to – possibly originating from previous meditation/ dissociation training or the fact that you are trying “have contact with infinity” (link) in order to escape “‘I’ as pain”. This is most likely ‘you’ trying to have contact with infinity, which is an impossibility. ‘I’ can never “have contact with infinity”. ‘I’ would have to go into abeyance for this to happen and it cannot be forced. It will only make you susceptible to imaginary passionate altered states.

The more reliable and enjoyable way is to activate delight (link) from which to progress into feeling excellent and from a state of enjoyment and appreciation you can invite /allow a PCE to happen.

Ian had some excellent suggestions in his post to you suggesting “Start with being kind to yourself” (link).

Scout: But Vineeto you are right in your assessment that I want to escape “‘I’ as pain” and my hyper-analysis and fixation on these experiences is part of it. I am scared of going from my current amount of psychological pain towards more pain too. Your responses are very encouraging that these depths of pain, fear and disorientation are not related to becoming actually free and aren’t necessary parts of getting in touch with reality. (link)

These experiences you described are certainly not part of becoming actually free – on the contrary. The reason we label them ‘actuality mimicking ASCs’ is because the identity tricks you into believing that this is actuality in order to scare you and convince you that you need to stay as ‘you’ are and then the passionate ‘I’/ ‘me’ can stay in control of your life. Attentiveness can help you to recognize these very tricks and decline.

Hence the actualism method starts from where you are at, being attentive to how you feel in this very moment of being alive, and seeing how silly it is to waste this precious moment, now, the only moment you are actually experiencing by being scared, angry, sad, resentful, or fighting the feeling you feel.

You know it is possible, you have already done and reported it on January 17 –

Scout: My previous focus had been on just giving attention to every moment regardless of what was coming up. But no emphasis on appreciation. this resulted in me feeling like coming to the present moment was a painful experience a lot of the time, and avoiding it.
Now I emphasize savouring it. Even in the presence of pain, I find aspects of whatever is happening to cherish. It makes the pain much more manageable. And it’s led to me taking better care of myself which has reduced the bodily discomfort I’ve been experiencing. (…)
Amidst upwellings of fear and sadness and mania, my baseline has become pretty much good. I think I can be ok even if I’m sick. But working on retraining my brain to appreciate whatever’s going on seems like it might actually physically help my illness too.
I will keep applying the method. I feel like I love my life again. I feel so curious to know myself deeper. And grateful that I can return to a grounded appreciation within myself again and again if I keep reminding myself to. (link).

It’s certainly worth continuing on this path to feeling good with patience and perseverance – and also continuing to appreciate what you have already achieved.

Cheers Vineeto

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Thanks Vineeto.

I have actually been taking @Ian ’s advice deeply to heart and it has initiated a chapter of deep dismantling of a lot of habits of self-rejection and self-punishment, which I used to keep myself on the straight and narrow within society (I had a hard time keeping up and fitting in, so I molded myself to conform through self-hatred)

I will very much keep this pointer in mind. I noticed my mind trying to panic me last night and remembered that reality is not bad at all, quite the opposite, and the panic no longer had anything to grab onto and passed through

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Scout: Thanks Vineeto.

Vineeto: Ian had some excellent suggestions in his post to you suggesting “Start with being kind to yourself” (link ).

Scout: I have actually been taking Ian ’s advice deeply to heart and it has initiated a chapter of deep dismantling of a lot of habits of self-rejection and self-punishment, which I used to keep myself on the straight and narrow within society (I had a hard time keeping up and fitting in, so I moulded myself to conform through self-hatred).

Hi Scout,

You are very welcome. I am pleased to read you made good progress in dismantling “self-rejection and self-punishment”. Now it will be easier to also notice instances when you don’t like being here (resentment) and rid yourself of this debilitating habitual attitude to feeling good.

Vineeto: The reason we label them ‘actuality mimicking ASCs’ is because the identity tricks you into believing that this is actuality in order to scare you and convince you that you need to stay as ‘you’ are and then the passionate ‘I’/ ‘me’ can stay in control of your life. Attentiveness can help you to recognize these very tricks and decline.

Scout: I will very much keep this pointer in mind. I noticed my mind trying to panic me last night and remembered that reality is not bad at all, quite the opposite, and the panic no longer had anything to grab onto and passed through. (link)

The more you succeed in paying attention to how you feel and how much it helps not to fight /feed the feeling, the more you are encouraged to keep going. Success breeds success. And pat yourself on the back for each success – it’s part of appreciating. :blush:

BTW, it is not your “mind trying to panic” you but rather the feeling of fear/ panic happening first (by 12 milliseconds) and then your mind’s reaction compounding the feeling. Close attention will confirm this to you experientially. Hence Richard’s advice to first get back to feeling good before contemplating about what happened to trigger the feeling.

Cheers Vineeto

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