Andrew

[Vineeto]

Andrew: Thanks so much Vineeto !
I have not had such a success as far as I can recall (excluding the possibility that I am cunningly not remembering it).
It’s a powerful imagination of mine right now to think of the weather you are probably experiencing right now, and yet such a detailed and thorough message from you has arrived in my journal.
I felt more encouraged by this success yesterday than perhaps ever before (excluding the possibility of me deliberately forgetting for cunning purposes).
I even remembered that the actualism method is the enjoy and appreciate, when the habit arose to become bogged down in some intellectualism about how I felt.
There has been a sense of space in front of my physical eyes. Like I can lean into the future, the world has space. When looking at flowers they are somehow more there. (link)

Hi Andrew,

I am responding to this post again because there has been no input from you or answer to my post to you (you may not even have read it yet) – instead you were busy philosophising and intellectualising on unrelated topics in great length on other threads.

I can only conclude from this that being “encouraged by this success” did not last very long, and you chose to escape into “Classic intellectualisation” which is the more familiar territory.

Do you really want to run away for the rest of your life because you are afraid to find out what you are afraid of, and prefer keep escaping into diversions of endless and fruitless philosophising and intellectualising? You don’t even know yet what it is you are afraid of because investigating your fear requires that you allow yourself to feel the feeling.

Maybe part of James’ conversations with Richard on a very similar topic may give you pause to absorb, contemplate and reflect on, and perhaps become fascinated by, what direction you want to give your life, after your short encouraging success with paying attention as to how you feel?

There is soo much more to life than intellectualising, fruitless rebellion, and ivory tower philosophising. Remember, you said “When looking at flowers they are somehow more there”?

James: … What comes to mind is I keep treading the same path over and over because that is what I know. That is what is familiar.
Richard: Indeed it is … so in order to successfully escape one needs to abandon the known path, the familiar path, the path that does not deliver the goods, so that the energy one is frittering away fruitlessly is available for the unknown path, the unfamiliar path, the path that does deliver the goods. (Richard, List B, James3, 1 Nov 2002)

Richard: In other words: do ‘I’ not continue to temporarily escape from being ‘me’ because permanent escape from being ‘me’ is the last thing ‘I’ am looking for? (Richard, List B, James3, 5 Nov 2002)

James: ‘I’ am stuck with ‘me’ (suffering) now. ‘I’ can’t see how to get past that.
Richard: As there has been a, perhaps predictable, retreat back into suffering (predictable as foreshadowed in ‘‘I’ want to hide from this inquiry’ and ‘‘I’ want to back out’ for example), then one starts with where one is presently at (where one is not yet at will emerge of its own accord as one proceeds): as you say ‘‘I’ am stuck with ‘me’ (suffering) now’ then for ‘me’ that is where ‘I’ am currently at.
Therefore, do ‘I’ feel the feeling of being stuck with ‘me’ (suffering) or not? If yes, then through staying with the feeling, by being the feeling (instead of trying to see how to get past that), one will find out, experientially, what it is really like to not have a path and/or not have a plan … other than the one of ‘looking for a way out’ so that one can stick with the known that is.
It sure beats armchair philosophising any day of the week. [Emphases added]. (Richard, List B, James3, 21 Nov 2002)

A change to more enjoyment and appreciation is in your hands and your hands alone.

Cheers Vineeto

[Andrew]

Thanks for the follow up, Vineeto.

Indeed a quick thankyou or acknowledgement on my part would have been polite. Sorry about that.

To your conclusion that I have retreated into classical intellectualisation, and forgotten the success, I will have to consider that a bit more.

I was definitely becoming engaged in the evolution of consciousness discussion, and struggled to stay in a feeling good mood, and identified that I was pushing an agenda which I offered or decided to end the discussion if it was getting in Claudiu’s way. Perhaps ending it for my own peace of mind would have been more sensible. I was enjoying the “intellectualism” I guess, as it is stimulating to have thought about and even discussed the topic of Jayne’s book. It was this book that put the nail in the coffin , at least intellectually, regarding the existence of God.

The discussion with Scout was actually quite fun today. I was laughing and running around with a bowl of water seeing if I it would boil in the sun light!

On top of that, I was able to continue coding a trading strategy (my ongoing “Improve my lot” goal).

Spoke with my son who is 21 today, had a laugh, planned for some outings.

Went for a long walk, and generally was in a good mood.

All that being said, it’s a sound observation that all that intellectual and philosophical type discussion, or scientific discussion, does lead me to be in my head and not maximising feeling good, it is as you say “familiar territory”.

A sort of conditional feeling good, often flat, or even a bit anxious , as it is very dependant on what others are saying and writing and is easy to be caught up in feeling less than good and “grinding” harder on the intellectual discussion to try and feel good via it, rather than stopping and getting back to feeling good deliberately.

Cheers
Andrew

[Vineeto]

Andrew: Thanks for the follow up, Vineeto.
Indeed a quick thankyou or acknowledgement on my part would have been polite. Sorry about that.

Hi Andrew,

I don’t need an acknowledgement or an apology – the reason I wrote was to remind you that you started something beneficial for yourself and then went back to your age-old habit instead of persisting and following up on your initial success.

Andrew: To your conclusion that I have retreated into classical intellectualisation, and forgotten the success, I will have to consider that a bit more.
I was definitely becoming engaged in the evolution of consciousness discussion, and struggled to stay in a feeling good mood, and identified that I was pushing an agenda which I offered or decided to end the discussion if it was getting in Claudiu’s way. Perhaps ending it for my own peace of mind would have been more sensible. I was enjoying the “intellectualism” I guess, as it is stimulating to have thought about and even discussed the topic of Jayne’s book. It was this book that put the nail in the coffin , at least intellectually, regarding the existence of God.

It’s good to hear that Jayne’s book liberated you from your belief in God but if I remember correctly, that happened already years ago and there is no need to carry this gratitude (a feeling which binds you to the past) for ever and a day. Something you now can unburden yourself from.

Andrew: The discussion with Scout was actually quite fun today. I was laughing and running around with a bowl of water seeing if I it would boil in the sun light! On top of that, I was able to continue coding a trading strategy (my ongoing “Improve my lot” goal).
Spoke with my son who is 21 today, had a laugh, planned for some outings.
Went for a long walk, and generally was in a good mood.
All that being said, it’s a sound observation that all that intellectual and philosophical type discussion, or scientific discussion, does lead me to be in my head and not maximising feeling good, it is as you say “familiar territory”.

You are aware, are you not, that the actualism method is not to maintain feeling good at any price, for instance via pushing away any diminishment in feeling good by ignoration or distraction?

Perhaps a refresher of Richard’s recommendation is useful –

Richard: Before applying the actualism method – the ongoing enjoyment and appreciation of this moment of being alive – it is essential for success to grasp the fact that this very moment which is happening now is your only moment of being alive. The past, although it did happen, is not actual now. The future, though it will happen, is not actual now. Only now is actual. Yesterday’s happiness and harmlessness does not mean a thing if one is miserable and malicious now and a hoped-for happiness and harmlessness tomorrow is to but waste this moment of being alive in waiting. All one gets by waiting is more waiting. Thus any ‘change’ can only happen now. The jumping in point is always here; it is at this moment in time and this place in space. Thus, if one misses it this time around, hey presto, one has another chance immediately. Life is excellent at providing opportunities like this.
What ‘I’ did, all those years ago, was to devise a remarkably effective way to be able to enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive each moment again (I know that methods are to be actively discouraged, in some people’s eyes, but this one worked). It does take some doing to start off with but, as success after success starts to multiply exponentially, it becomes progressively easier to enjoy and appreciate being here each moment again. One begins by asking, each moment again, ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive’?
Note: asking how one is experiencing this moment of being alive is not the actualism method; consistently enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive is what the actualism method is. And this is because the actualism method is all about consciously and knowingly imitating life in the actual world. Also, by virtue of proceeding in this manner the means to the end – an ongoing enjoyment and appreciation – are no different to the end itself. (…)
As one knows from the pure consciousness experiences (PCE’s), which are moments of perfection everybody has at some stage in their life, that it is possible to experience this moment in time and this place in space as perfection personified, ‘I’ set the minimum standard of experience for myself: feeling good. If ‘I’ am not feeling good then ‘I’ have something to look at to find out why. What has happened, between the last time ‘I’ felt good and now? When did ‘I’ feel good last? Five minutes ago? Five hours ago? What happened to end those felicitous feelings? Ahh … yes: ‘He said that and I …’. Or: ‘She didn’t do this and I …’. Or: ‘What I wanted was …’. Or: ‘I didn’t do …’. And so on and so on … one does not have to trace back into one’s childhood … usually no more than yesterday afternoon at the most (‘feeling good’ is an unambiguous term – it is a general sense of well-being – and if anyone wants to argue about what feeling good means … then do not even bother trying to do this at all).
Once the specific moment of ceasing to feel good is pin-pointed, and the silliness of having such an incident as that (no matter what it is) take away one’s enjoyment and appreciation of this only moment of being alive is seen for what it is – usually some habitual reactive response – one is once more feeling good … but with a pin-pointed cue to watch out for next time so as to not have that trigger off yet another bout of the same-old same-old. This is called nipping it in the bud before it gets out of hand … with application and diligence and patience and perseverance one soon gets the knack of this and more and more time is spent enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive. And, of course, once one does get the knack of this, one up-levels ‘feeling good’, as a bottom line each moment again, to ‘feeling happy and harmless’ … and after that to ‘feeling perfect’.
The more one enjoys and appreciates being just here right now – to the point of excellence being the norm – the greater the likelihood of a PCE happening … a grim and/or glum person has no chance whatsoever of allowing the magical event, which indubitably shows where everyone has being going awry, to occur. Plus any analysing and/or psychologising and/or philosophising whilst one is in the grip of debilitating feelings usually does not achieve much (other than spiralling around and around in varying degrees of despair and despondency or whatever) anyway. (Richard, Articles, This Moment of Being Alive).

Andrew: A sort of conditional feeling good, often flat, or even a bit anxious, as it is very dependent on what others are saying and writing and is easy to be caught up in feeling less than good and “grinding” harder on the intellectual discussion to try and feel good via it, rather than stopping and getting back to feeling good deliberately. (link)

Here you gave a precise description how feeling good diminished and you used your old coping tactics, which you know don’t work in the long run. Why not try something new for a change. Stop and feel out what lies underneath this feeling a bit “flat”, or “anxious”. By allowing to feel it you can get the information what is wrong, what is the cause – be it some ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ you have violated and which validity you can now question, some deeper feeling being covered up or perhaps just a habit which on inspection makes no sense to continue. Here is a perfect way to make your intelligence work for your well-being instead of only abstract discussions (which can be fun). When more persistent feelings happen, then the quote I sent in my last post applies –

Richard: Therefore, do ‘I’ feel the feeling of being stuck with ‘me’ (suffering) or not? If yes, then through staying with the feeling, by being the feeling (instead of trying to see how to get past that), one will find out, experientially, what it is really like to not have a path and/or not have a plan … other than the one of ‘looking for a way out’ so that one can stick with the known that is.
[Emphasis added]. (Richard, List B, James3, 21 Nov 2002)

See how you go and don’t give up before you start.

Cheers Vineeto

[Andrew]

Thanks Vineeto,

Indeed, I was wondering about those moments that I clearly was flat or anxiety about the discussion was there, what was the attraction to continue? Why persist past while it’s clear I did let myself “forget” the recent success?

I can see I need to be far more “ruthless” in catching this habit. I had really only been considering intellectualisation in relation to how I deal with feelings. With the endless complications and theory, and rumination, etc…but the flip side is when the habit is “somewhat” enjoyable, but in a very rollercoaster way. Where I am persuing a point, or trying to convince someone, or teach, or save, or appear smart, or let some mission take over, which has a feeling of obligation to it.

I will keep looking into these feelings that arose over the last 2 days that did turn the “flower being more there” into normal me, intellectualising and basically ignoring the obvious, I was not feeling good anymore, and I was justifying it habitually.

That’s very cool though, that the habit can be worked on all the time! The feelings can be experienced because I am not tempted to intellectualise them, and further not lose contact with the feelings because I am habitually intellectualising about everything else too!