Scout’s journal

i keep having moments of being like “damn i could’ve just dropped this all along?? is it really this easy??”

maybe it’s only as easy as it is because i followed so many threads of pursuit and fixation to the point of exhaustion so i no longer harbor some latent belief that they will make me ultimately happy. they always felt so sticky when i tried to drop them before. i still wanted the highs and was willing to endure a disproportional amount of lows for the promise of a potential payoff.

unlike those chases, i am finding the peace and rewards rather quickly purely by dropping the habit of withdrawing into my usual mental/emotional games. some part of me was always resisting every piece of advice reminding me that the thing i really want is always now, now, now. i suffered for nothing and it was going nowhere and i didn’t want to stop suffering because it was hard to just acknowledge it had all been a waste (suffering about the extent of suffering i’ve already suffered, good lord what a stupid endless rabbit hole).

no more self-punishment, no more agonizing. i see those very clearly as habits now that i can break. i am eager to see what further clarity will emerge as my mental bandwidth is freed from that tired crap, and feel very motivated by the peace and enjoyment i’ve had arise in their absence

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becoming more naive sometimes has come with sadness

when i strip away my cynicism and numbness i just see a lot of hurt and scared people. i see how the people i love struggle and are in pain. i also see that they are finite and going to die. i remember being little and the enormity of all of those things was overwhelming and it devastated me and eventually i numbed out but now i see it again and i feel it deeply

i don’t really know how to move back to feeling good other than feeling these things when they hit me. if i try to redirect my attention i feel the ignored feelings buzzing in the background, where they can remain as agitation for days to weeks if i insist on not facing them. so i give the feelings my attention and they swallow me for a little and i sob harder than i’ve sobbed in memory. and then after that they start to recede

i don’t know if this goes against the method, it’s just kind of naturally started happening as i’ve started paying more direct attention to what’s going on in my mind and body. i know crying doesn’t change anything but it really demands to be felt, i can’t get around it. it has been making me kinder and more patient with people. but i also notice the desire to help people emerging, out of compassion. i’ve been noticing this without entertaining the fantasies too much because it seems silly to have someone who is not fully free of pain wanting to guide others out of pain. towards what? i don’t know where i’m going, but i feel more raw than i’ve felt since childhood.

maybe this is part of the compulsion of self-immolation, because it feels like i as an emotional entity have to choose between being numb or feeling intense and destabilizing emotional pain in response to the misery of humanity. humanity loves its weeping martyrs but honestly from an experiential perspective, being the martyr seems like kind of a raw deal. sure it’s pretty blissful to feel loving and compassionate and connected but it seems inextricable: if feeling connected with other people supplies the druggy good feelings, then feeling disconnected from them or rejected by them produces bad feelings. if their happiness brings good feelings, then their misery brings bad ones.

so i’m handing other people, who are often volatile and repressed and on some level unhappy, the reins to my well-being.

i don’t like living this way.

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Hi Scout,

If possible next time you face these feelings, try and focus on the (intuitively felt) feeling itself rather than going into sobbing etc., as the sobbing can sometimes be a distraction from the feeling itself. It will likely be very uncomfortable, but it is the most direct version of the feeling/being. Looking for this also means a more direct experiencing of all forms of yourself, including the felicitous & innocuous!

Once it has receded, you may be able to use appreciation for the felt relief and any insights gained to complete a transition to feeling good. From there it is essential to use that moment to go back and investigate the feeling and whatever triggers caused it. You can use the method of investigation @Vineeto mentions here:

“When I first met Richard, after years of spiritual search where thinking was discouraged, I was delighted to be encouraged to use my brain again in the way it is capable of. Richard gave me one guideline – when exploring one topic to find out answers I hadn’t thought of before, he said, always come back to the ‘trunk’, the original question of inquiry. You can branch out, jump from branch to branch, but then come back to the original question. This way whatever has been discovered by the discursive way of thinking will be fed into advancing the original question. That’s how productive contemplation can work best.”

Using this method, you can gradually come to better understand both the individual trigger, the individual feeling, and more gradually, yourself as a feeling being, and humanity itself. With that gradual understanding, the individual triggers are weakened, resulting in increased peace, a higher baseline of enjoyment, and longer periods of enjoying & appreciating. It’s also self-perpetuating, as in having success breeds ever-greater successes and confidence in the process itself.

This is very encouraging. You may have previously been somewhat dissociated, and this rawness is an indication that you’re allowing these emotions to exist for the first time in a long time. That’s another way of saying that you’re acknowledging what ‘you’ are (as a feeling being) for the first time in a long time.

Luckily there is the third alternative, in the form of the felicitous/innocuous emotions and ultimately in self-immolation. You’re tuning into something very accurate, which is that people tend to celebrate that martyrdom as well as normal versions of success, but intuitive experience can demonstrate that is ultimately a raw deal: you still get your suffering, the love & compassion ultimately keeps that suffering in place (hence its diabolical underbelly), and nothing ever changes. This awareness is essential for making the inhuman choice, which is to enjoy & appreciate this moment of being alive despite every instinct.

Indeed! That’s the lot of anyone wishing to belong…

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Scout: Becoming more naive sometimes has come with sadness
When I strip away my cynicism and numbness I just see a lot of hurt and scared people. I see how the people I love struggle and are in pain. I also see that they are finite and going to die. I remember being little and the enormity of all of those things was overwhelming and it devastated me and eventually I numbed out but now I see it again and I feel it deeply.

Hi Scout,

You describe very well why it is initially difficult to allow naiveté into one’s life. All the emotional pain and sorrow you feel when opening up can be quite overwhelming and devastating. Feeling being ‘Vineeto’ could only allow feeling the full extent of this sorrow when ‘she’ knew with the certainty gained from the PCE that there was an actual solution to the millennia-old ubiquitous sorrow of the human condition.

You may recall what I wrote to Kuba recently (link) –

VINEETO’ (to Richard): Last night serendipity provided the answer to my question to you, which had been going on in my head since I wrote to you. The experiential answer to ‘I am many and many is me’ presented itself in the form a TV program on International Humanitarian Aid Organizations and their role and accountability. For one and a half hours there was ample footage presented on human suffering and devastation in war, famine, genocide and racial ‘cleansing’ on one side and the helpless, well-intentioned, yet almost useless effort of people in the aid organizations on the other side.
The presentation was enough to make it utterly and unquestionably clear to me that there is no difference between me and the hundreds of thousands who have suffered and died and those who have, without success or effective change, tried to help – for ‘umpteen hundreds of thousands of years’. On an overwhelming instinctual level ‘I’ am ‘them’ and ‘I’ have had no solution and never will have a solution.
The devastation is enormous and the only way ‘out’ is ‘self’-sacrifice. [Emphasis added]. (Actualism, Vineeto, AF List, Richard, 28.9.1999).

It is nevertheless excellent that you can allow yourself to be “more naïve” which “sometimes has come with sadness”. Remember to also be appreciative of both your courage and sensitivity to humanity’s plight.

Scout: I don’t really know how to move back to feeling good other than feeling these things when they hit me. If I try to redirect my attention I feel the ignored feelings buzzing in the background, where they can remain as agitation for days to weeks if I insist on not facing them. So I give the feelings my attention and they swallow me for a little and I sob harder than I’ve sobbed in memory. And then after that they start to recede.
I don’t know if this goes against the method, it’s just kind of naturally started happening as I’ve started paying more direct attention to what’s going on in my mind and body. I know crying doesn’t change anything but it really demands to be felt, I can’t get around it. It has been making me kinder and more patient with people. But I also notice the desire to help people emerging, out of compassion. I’ve been noticing this without entertaining the fantasies too much because it seems silly to have someone who is not fully free of pain wanting to guide others out of pain. Towards what? I don’t know where I’m going, But I feel more raw than I’ve felt since childhood.

I remember from ‘Vineeto’s’ experiences that it can take a while to feel out those intensive feelings. It also gives you a bit more information how ‘you’ tick (and by extent how every feeling being ticks at the core of their being). Henry is correct that when indulging in too much sorrow, you can be swallowed up and seduced by the bitter-sweetness of sorrow – but with fascinated attention you are bound to discover the right balance.

Feeling “more raw than I’ve felt since childhood” is a good indicator that you have allowed naiveté to peek through your numbness, and years of hiding from behind those walls certainly needs getting used to. Be aware, i.e. be attentive, when this sorrow flips into compassion (=is suffering with others) because that might initially feel better but will only extend the sorrow. You can be helping others by feeling good yourself and instead be practically patient, considerate and friendly.

R: One can give unconditional love to another for twenty four hours a day – I have done this myself, years ago – and the other is still not satisfied. Initially thrilled, yes, but eventually it is not enough. Total acceptance, total appreciation, total love … that is what I provided for another, once upon a time … and it was not what she needed. She only felt that that would satisfy, that that was what would settle the gnawing ache, the gaping wound, the longing void. It was not.
Q(2): Oh yes, I know that from myself. It turns it back onto me, doesn’t it?
R: Not only does another person not have to provide you with fulfilment, the fact is they can not. Once one realises this, one is free from the other. And not only are you free from them, but you free them from your demands, your expectations that you put upon them – like your parents do.
It is a two-way thing. If, as you say, you go around the world to visit your parents to ‘pacify them’ – to fulfil their expectations – you, too, are looking for fulfilment. Which is why I asked you: ‘What is your investment?’ (Audio-taped Dialogues, Compassion Gained through Forgiveness Binds)

You observed it well – you would not know where to lead others, other than providing a living example how to live without resentment of being here, by enjoying and appreciating being alive, and thus prove wrong the ancient belief that ‘life is a vale of tears’.

What also helps is to emotionally accept that which is intellectually unacceptable –

RICHARD: Given that people are as-they-are and that the world is as-it-is there are more than a few things which are ‘unacceptable’ (child abuse, rape, murder, torture and so on). What worked for me twenty-odd years ago, as a preliminary step, was to rephrase the question so that it makes sense (rather than vainly apply any of those unliveable ‘unconditional acceptance’ type injunctions):
• Can I emotionally accept that which is intellectually unacceptable?
This way intelligence need not be compromised … intelligence will no longer be crippled. (Richard, List B, James2, 18 Aug 2001).

Scout: Maybe this is part of the compulsion of self-immolation, because it feels like I as an emotional entity have to choose between being numb or feeling intense and destabilizing emotional pain in response to the misery of humanity. Humanity loves its weeping martyrs but honestly from an experiential perspective, being the martyr seems like kind of a raw deal. Sure it’s pretty blissful to feel loving and compassionate and connected but it seems inextricable: if feeling connected with other people supplies the druggy good feelings, then feeling disconnected from them or rejected by them produces bad feelings. If their happiness brings good feelings, then their misery brings bad ones.
So I’m handing other people, who are often volatile and repressed and on some level unhappy, the reins to my well-being.
I don’t like living this way. (link)

Well said. You are discovering more and more about the human condition and why the old ways don’t work and never have. And now you have an alternative which works. Being naïve you can experiment with being both sensitive and sensible and appreciate the successes you have to enjoy life more than before.

Cheers Vineeto

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Thank you both very much for your responses and apologies for the delay.

@henryyyyyyyyyy I’ve been looking directly at what’s happening behind the grief per the snippet you provided, which doesn’t always stem the tears but it does keep the cause in focus. One of the things I’ve been feeling most acutely lately is noticing my parents aging, just as the last of my grandparents are passing away. I really love my parents and I feel like I am really facing the recognition that barring some tragic accident befalling me, I am inevitably going to watch them age and die in the not-too-distant future (it makes me cry just writing this).

I’m not sure if the tears are an escape. It more feels like I want to look away or distract myself from this recognition because it is painful. I’ve been trying not to look away recently and I wind up looking directly at death and how it erases everything. Every part of my life is borrowed and brief, and every achievement I reach and every good thing I ever attain will at some point be lost. And inevitably all that starts collapsing towards now being the only thing that can possibly matter. And it’s unfathomably precious even when it’s painful.

It is propelling me further towards giving now all of my attention. Because I don’t really remember a PCE, I am pretty untethered in my practice and am easily distracted from my pain by fantasy and numbing pleasure, locked in the same cycle as most of humanity. I related to what @jamesjjoo was saying in his journal in that I’ve wanted health more than freedom. But as @Vineeto commented, my health will be whatever it is right now, and life is still happening, and every single moment deserves full attention. I want to savor it rather than trying to escape from it. Breaking those habits is really really hard.

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It’s helpful to hear you relate and understand. I’d love for the clarity of a PCE as an orienting compass, so I will keep pointing myself in that direction.

The instruction is simple but it really is quite challenging in practice, in that the internal emotional world can be viscerally painful. I’m a pretty sensitive person prone to being easily overwhelmed (this is an unhappy and uncomfortable existence, which is why I started seeking out a better way of living in the first place). I really don’t like pain, so often when something in my psyche hurts to look at, I will run away from the challenge. However, I find it hard to return to “feeling good” without direct acknowledgment of whatever it is standing in the way of that, so trying to numb and run away from the feeling I don’t like doesn’t help me.

It’s like there’s this meta-layer of fear of my own psyche. The feelings themselves (grief, fear) can be intense, but they are often somatic and don’t last too long without the fuel of ongoing thought, and even amidst grief or fear I can watch what’s happening in my body and see where I am tensing in resistance to the feelings, which often hurts more than the feeling itself. What also often hurts more than the feeling is the anticipation that the feeling will be bad and painful, the resistance to experiencing it and the desire to escape. I can see that this dread is pointless because it just adds unnecessary pain to the necessary pain.

It takes some real work to unlearn the resistances and avoidances I’ve spent a lifetime leaning on. I can also see why it might be hard for people to do this without a clear PCE for reference; the glimpses of peace I get are incredibly nice, but the addictive, dopaminergic pleasure derived from the habits I use to escape myself is much more accessible, and offers a buzzier thrill. But it doesn’t feel real or complete in the way that the peace feels. I think it might take me some time to break my addictions but the more I observe them clearly, the more they start to fall away on their own.

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I don’t think I can emotionally accept it, can I? I just saw this video on Instagram (child abuse warning: Agni on Instagram: "TW: emotional. . . . . #fyp #explore #crime #humanity"). It feels very painful to watch. It makes me feel compassion and the urge to do anything to help humanity because it’s the most fucking depressing thing in the world to see an innocent child screaming out for love and begging to have its needs met.

The other day I was at a store on line behind a tiny 3 year old kid who was sitting in her cart, (understandably) bored while her mom talked for like 10 mins to customer service. She started picking her nose and her mom grabbed her hand out of her nose and she was squirming and asking her to stop and the mom hissed at her, “Don’t make me beat you.”

I mean, obviously I need to keep functioning in a world where all of this is happening. Dwelling in pain definitely doesn’t change anything (although it does feel like that pain provides motivation to do something to make things better - isn’t this the function of compassion?).

But then what do I do? Notice myself feeling sad and outraged and see how it’s ineffective? It hurts a lot to feel this way, that much is clear. My mind argues that it’s selfish to just focus on eliminating pain for myself and cut myself off from the pain of others. It really breaks my heart. I want to help the suffering stop

Hi Scout,

This wanting to help the suffering stop is a remarkably potent force that you can definitely use effectively.

But that’s the question, how to use it effectively?

If you just look at the world and see all the sorrow and compassion that is already on display – you will see that this doesn’t work. It doesn’t work to actually stop the madness and suffering you are witnessing.

Feeling sad and sorrowful leaves you in a position to not be able to do anything due to lack of outwardly-directed energy. Sorrow can naturally turn to outrage, which is a form of aggression – and then look, you yourself are contributing to the madness, using the very same passionate energy, aggression, that mother is using to threaten her helpless daughter. You may feel that aggression applied appropriately, towards the proper targets, will solve the situation – you just have to look at humanity’s long and bloody history to already know that this won’t work.

What you can do, however, is actually eliminate the root cause of all this suffering and sorrow and malice and aggression… which is nothing other than you, the feeling-being that you are. A PCE makes this abundantly clear, that this is all you have to do – sacrifice yourself in your entirety for the benefit of this body, that body, and every body.

And the immediate next question once this goal is established is, what do you do in the meantime? And in the meantime the best thing to do is to imitate that actuality as best as you can – which is done via enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive, a way of life that has come to be known as the actualism method.

In this way all your passionate energy is directed towards one goal only, which immediately has actual tangible benefits for the people around you (just ask any actualist how their success has affected those closest to them), and as a side-benefit you get to enjoy being alive too. This is in stark contrast with fueling and channeling sorrow and outrage, which has the effect of making those around you also sorrowful and outraged, which then only propagates further and causes those very problems you seek to end.

This is not a cop-out, a trick, a scheme, or a cunning strategem to avoid actually helping others in order to selfishly only help yourself. It’s actually the exact opposite - it is sacrificing what you hold most dear (which is you, yourself, your outrage, your sorrow, your anger) for the benefit of others and the actual flesh and blood body you are parasitically inhabiting.

But how can you be happy and harmless when mothers are out there beating their children, and far worse? This is where you ask yourself if you can emotionally accept that which is intellectually unacceptable.

The former is not to be separated out from the latter. It isn’t acceptance. It is continuing to recognize that all of this madness is completely unacceptable – you don’t cripple your intelligence by putting on blinders and pretending this is the case – and yet allowing yourself to emotionally accept that this is indeed the world we live in, this is how it works, this is what people do. It is what happens… and the world keeps rotating and orbiting the Sun. And the best thing, the very best thing you can do, to actually improve the situation and not just feel like you are improving it (which is what the sorrow and outrage actually do – they are the self-centered variant of the two as it is only done to assuage your feelings!) – is to give yourself up, increasingly allow the benevolence and benignity of the actual world to operate, until the day finally dawns when you allow yourself to self-immolate.

RICHARD: One can become virtually free from all the insidious feelings – the emotions and passions and calentures – which fuel the mind and give credence to all the illusions and delusions and fantasies and hallucinations which masquerade as visions of The Truth. One can become virtually free of all that which has encumbered humans with misery and despair and live in a state of virtual freedom … which is beyond ‘normal’ human expectations anyway. In virtual freedom one is ninety nine percent free and the other one percent causes very little trouble – if any – and with virtual freedom operating in every human being there could be a virtual global peace-on-earth. Howsoever that may be, the day of destiny ultimately dawns wherein one is catapulted into actual freedom. One will have obtained release from one’s fate and achieved one’s birthright … and the world will be all the better for it. [L]

Cheers,
Claudiu

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Scout: The instruction is simple but it really is quite challenging in practice, in that the internal emotional world can be viscerally painful. I’m a pretty sensitive person prone to being easily overwhelmed (this is an unhappy and uncomfortable existence, which is why I started seeking out a better way of living in the first place). I really don’t like pain, so often when something in my psyche hurts to look at, I will run away from the challenge. However, I find it hard to return to “feeling good” without direct acknowledgment of whatever it is standing in the way of that, so trying to numb and run away from the feeling I don’t like doesn’t help me.
It’s like there’s this meta-layer of fear of my own psyche. The feelings themselves (grief, fear) can be intense, but they are often somatic and don’t last too long without the fuel of ongoing thought, and even amidst grief or fear I can watch what’s happening in my body and see where I am tensing in resistance to the feelings, which often hurts more than the feeling itself. What also often hurts more than the feeling is the anticipation that the feeling will be bad and painful, the resistance to experiencing it and the desire to escape. I can see that this dread is pointless because it just adds unnecessary pain to the necessary pain.

Hi Scout,

You discovered for yourself that “meta-layer of fear”, which I would call underlying layer of fear, prevents you to look at the painful/ sorrowful emotions. As such I would recommend again, what I wrote to you before –

Vineeto: … stop fighting your pain and stop fighting the feelings you experience. Any battle against yourself only fuels the feelings and the [somatic] pain by increasing the power of ‘you’ to make you feel bad. Personally, feeling being ‘Vineeto’ found that the moment she stopped fighting the feeling (i.e. by being afraid of it), it instantly diminished.
From there, seeing the success of stopping the battle against yourself, you might be able to get to a reasonable feeling good, a little better than neutral. (link)

And

Vineeto: I understand that it is hard to get an entry into the actualism method when you have a long-habituated response to fear and pain and all other unpleasant feelings. The thing is if you want to get better, you will have to start somewhere, and your entry is to allow yourself to feel, so that you can notice how you fight this feeling … and then consciously stop resisting, fighting, complaining, rejecting it. Unless you actually do it, you can never find out if the feeling itself diminishes when you stop fighting it, or not. (link)

Scout: It takes some real work to unlearn the resistances and avoidances I’ve spent a lifetime leaning on. I can also see why it might be hard for people to do this without a clear PCE for reference; the glimpses of peace I get are incredibly nice, but the addictive, dopaminergic pleasure derived from the habits I use to escape myself is much more accessible, and offers a buzzier thrill. But it doesn’t feel real or complete in the way that the peace feels. I think it might take me some time to break my addictions but the more I observe them clearly, the more they start to fall away on their own. (link)

Indeed, it does take some time but what it really takes is action. Observing is not enough and they won’t fall away by themselves. Actualism is not the neo-buddhistic ‘noting’ which is nothing but a dissociation practice. Check out (when you are feeling good) Claudiu’s excellent description from December 2012, what detrimental effect the MCTB advice given to him by the DhO participants had on him, and how he eventually managed to extract himself from the habit of noting/ dissociation. (Richard List D, Claudiu, 18 Dec 2012).

When you observe that any exploration into suffering brings up fear, and also observe your habitual reaction of rejecting the fear, take action by deciding to stop fighting the fear (neither repressing nor expressing) – and see what happens. The more actively responsive you are to your observations of habitual resistance and actively decide to stop fighting the fear, the less time it takes to “break my addictions”. They don’t fall away on their own but you can replace the addictive behaviour with the more beneficial alternative.

RICHARD: Given that people are as-they-are and that the world is as-it-is there are more than a few things which are ‘unacceptable’ (child abuse, rape, murder, torture and so on). What worked for me twenty-odd years ago, as a preliminary step, was to rephrase the question so that it makes sense (rather than vainly apply any of those unliveable ‘unconditional acceptance’ type injunctions):
• Can I emotionally accept that which is intellectually unacceptable?
This way intelligence need not be compromised … intelligence will no longer be crippled. (Richard, List B, James2, 18 Aug 2001).

Scout: I don’t think I can emotionally accept it, can I? I just saw this video on Instagram (child abuse warning [snipped link]). It feels very painful to watch. It makes me feel compassion and the urge to do anything to help humanity because it’s the most fucking depressing thing in the world to see an innocent child screaming out for love and begging to have its needs met. (…)

Just because you “don’t think” that this is possible, and then prove this with another feeling response (to two stories about child abuse) means that your “I don’t think” is factual. Wouldn’t you rather say you ‘don’t feel’ that this is possible? Can you think again, when you are feeling good, and make a sincere distinction between “intellectually unacceptable” and emotionally unacceptable?

Presently you merely proved to yourself that your addiction to suffering is indeed unchangeable and therefore justified. Do you recognize the trick you play with yourself? You simply changed suffering about your own pain (which is too difficult to look at because of an underlying fear) to suffering for other people’s sake, especially in situations in which you can do nothing and where your own sympathy, empathy and compassion can offer no practical assistance. It only makes you suffer on their behalf on top of suffering on your own behalf so that you can feel less ‘selfish’.

Gary: By the way, I think questioning the supposedly benevolent intentions of others under the guise of ‘concern’ and ‘sympathy’ is a sign of health, not illness.
Richard: Sometimes it is helpful to work from the etymological roots of words … and as the word ‘concern’ comes from the Latin ‘concernere’ (sift, distinguish) I would endorse it as an apt description of a sign of health, yes. But as ‘sympathy’ comes from the Greek ‘sym’ (together, alike) and ‘pathy’ (suffering, feeling) I am hard-pushed to see ‘suffering together’ or ‘feeling alike’ as a sign of health (similarly with ‘compassion’: the Latin ‘passio’ equals the Greek ‘pathos’ hence ‘together in pathos’). There is a widespread belief that suffering is good for you … whereas in my experience the only good thing about suffering is when it comes to an end.
Permanently. (Richard, List B, Gary, 22 Sep 1999).

With this change of suffering for others’ sake you now deepened/ enhanced your own suffering and thus made any changes to your addiction to suffering more unlikely. I am pointing this out so that you can begin to recognize your own tricks employed not to change (‘you’ the frightened identity, which is very inventive and cunning in order to remain in charge).

Scout: But then what do I do? Notice myself feeling sad and outraged and see how it’s ineffective? It hurts a lot to feel this way, that much is clear. My mind argues that it’s selfish to just focus on eliminating pain for myself and cut myself off from the pain of others. It really breaks my heart. I want to help the suffering stop (link)

Claudiu pointed out quite rightly –

Claudiu: Feeling sad and sorrowful leaves you in a position to not be able to do anything due to lack of outwardly-directed energy. Sorrow can naturally turn to outrage, which is a form of aggression – and then look, you yourself are contributing to the madness, using the very same passionate energy, aggression, that mother is using to threaten her helpless daughter. You may feel that aggression applied appropriately, towards the proper targets, will solve the situation – you just have to look at humanity’s long and bloody history to already know that this won’t work. (link)

To genuinely, effectively and actually “help the suffering stop” you start with yourself, the only person you can change.

An ‘unselfish’ self is still a self and there is no virtue in increasing the suffering by suffering for others while doing nothing to stop inflicting your own suffering on others (via psychic vibes for instance).

Richard: Just as there are those who water down ‘selfless’ (no self) into meaning ‘unselfish’ (a not selfish self), there are those who make ‘timeless’ (no time) mean ‘eternity’ (unlimited time).
Even dictionaries do this. (Richard, List B, No. 33h, 2 Nov 2001).

First stop fighting the fear when it arises and allow, in the experiencing of it, to get the information you need in order to get back to feeling good. When feeling good – with less emotional interference – you can think about what you have read and found sensible and apply the advice that makes sense to you. If it works to minimize your suffering, continue, if not contemplate again and identify what other triggers keep you from feeling good.

One thing is for sure, suffering on others’ behalf or feeling sorry for your own emotional pain is not working to “help the suffering stop”.

Cheers Vineeto

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I am really grateful for the thoughtfulness of engagement offered in the responses here, thank you @claudiu and @Vineeto.

Man this is really true!! I’ve been noticing how anger usually comes hand in hand with the grief. I’ve actually been alarmed looking honestly at what I think and feel - I’ve even wished death upon the people who I perceive as perpetrating harm upon humanity. I can also see how this feels good in a kind of sick way. Far from harmless lol, apparently my compassion struggles to extend itself to the cruel and powerful.

Yea I think this is part of the pull to me as well of actual freedom, because the only solutions I have found proposed for the most part are either a) ignore it or b) nobly suffer on behalf of the rest of the world. Or from the spiritual crowd: dissociate, or imagine that there is a grander karmic balance that will play out, or an after-life absolution. Not a single one of those options have ever sat well with me.

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Good pointer, thank you. I definitely still retain some degree of buddhist passivity.

Also true!! And it’s hard to let go of too because of tribal allegiances, because compassion and self-sacrifice is a high moral virtue within my family (who I am very close with). I’ve actually started questioning the tenets of compassion and martyrdom with them in the past and they bristled rather strongly so I dropped it. I guess their compassion, like mine, is limited in scope and does not extend its mercy to those who don’t subscribe to a similar world view. At any rate, it definitely doesn’t help anyone to linger in pain just because other people are in pain, for whatever reason

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Vineeto: Indeed, it does take some time but what it really takes is action. Observing is not enough and they won’t fall away by themselves. Actualism is not the neo-buddhistic ‘noting’ which is nothing but a dissociation practice.

Scout: Good pointer, thank you. I definitely still retain some degree of buddhist passivity.

What it takes is paying diligent attention whenever you notice a diminishment of feeling good, you take note of the trigger and then investigate the cause of the trigger – sometimes it is an old habit which you can decline, sometimes it is something deeper which needs further exploration. Don’t remain passive, which is obvious an acquired habit which only serves to keep you miserable.

Vineeto: Presently you merely proved to yourself that your addiction to suffering is indeed unchangeable and therefore justified. Do you recognize the trick you play with yourself? You simply changed suffering about your own pain (which is too difficult to look at because of an underlying fear) to suffering for other people’s sake, especially in situations in which you can do nothing and where your own sympathy, empathy and compassion can offer no practical assistance. It only makes you suffer on their behalf on top of suffering on your own behalf so that you can feel less ‘selfish’.

Scout: Also true!! And it’s hard to let go of too because of tribal allegiances, because compassion and self-sacrifice is a high moral virtue within my family (who I am very close with). I’ve actually started questioning the tenets of compassion and martyrdom with them in the past and they bristled rather strongly so I dropped it.

Ah, there you have uncovered one reason for maintaining this habit of remaining passive – loyalty. Excellent.

There is no need to “questioning the tenets of compassion and martyrdom with them”, you only need to question those “tenets of compassion and martyrdom” with yourself. Be courageous to leave the nest because remaining in the fold of “tribal allegiances” has only served to keep you imprisoned with their demands of “suffering together” (com-passion).

You do not need, nor can you change others. The only person you can and need to change is yourself.

Scout: I guess their compassion, like mine, is limited in scope and does not extend its mercy to those who don’t subscribe to a similar world view. At any rate, it definitely doesn’t help anyone to linger in pain just because other people are in pain, for whatever reason. (link)

Ha, that is a high prize for receiving a sense of allegiance, don’t you think?

Here is a snippet of conversation feeling being ‘Vineeto’ had with Richard on that very topic in 1997 –

R: I remember you and I having a conversation about loyalty the second or third time you came here. You were realising that you had loyalty to hold you back.
Q2: Yes, it took a while for me to work through. It is a feeling of belonging, and when I dismantled what loyalty is made up of then it loses its virtue.
R: It is connected with belonging? To a particular group? So all these group therapies that people do, they would not question that loyalty, would they? Because they belong to that very group that is running the therapies. The whole thing of the commune.
Q(2): It’s a new loyalty – away from the family and toward the commune.
R: Whereas I am only interested in being rid of loyalty altogether – however strange that may initially seem. [Emphasis added].
(Richard, Audiotaped Dialogues, Compassion Gained through Forgivenness Binds).

There are more details on this topic in “Basic to Full Freedom” if you are interested.

Be courageous and begin to take your life into your own hands. You already made the first step in discovering what is presently holding back.

Cheers Vineeto

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@scout I just saw this picture pop up on my Facebook and it made me think of your explorations of ‘changing the world’ via compassion (as well as the malice that is inevitably stirred up)

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my responses here will be as scattered as my energy levels which have been consistently low the past couple months after a health flare but i have very much enjoyed reading all of your responses, and have thoughts too that i will muster the energy to write out at some point.

for now though i have a question for @Vineeto - how do i nip emotions in the bud without suppressing them? what’s the difference?

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Scout: My responses here will be as scattered as my energy levels which have been consistently low the past couple months after a health flare but I have very much enjoyed reading all of your responses, and have thoughts too that I will muster the energy to write out at some point.

Hi Scout,

Welcome back.

The last correspondence we had you talked about that you “definitely still retain some degree of buddhist passivity” and that you struggle with the “high moral virtue” that “compassion and martyrdom” had/have for you. (link)

Have you had any success in recognizing, contemplating and dismantling some of your feelings/ patterns/ principles and beliefs in tribal allegiance and loyalty, especially towards your family. Are these particular feelings/ patterns/ principles perhaps related to your experience of “consistently low” “energy levels” and “health flare”?

Scout: For now though I have a question for Vineeto – how do I nip emotions in the bud without suppressing them? What’s the difference? (link)

If the above is the case, that your present emotions and low “energy levels” are related to the issue of “compassion” (suffering together) and “martyrdom” then nipping in the bud is not the solution. The solution is dissolution of loyalty and addiction to belonging when you can clearly recognize and acknowledge that this interferes with your well-being and enjoying and appreciating of being alive.

The difference between suppressing and nipping in the bud is significant. As you said in our last correspondence that “I definitely still retain some degree of buddhist passivity” (link) suppression of unwanted feelings does still seem to be somewhat habitual. Such suppression needs to be recognized when it is happening to stop this habit in its track. Hence my suggestion to stop fighting the fear/ feeling when it arises and allow, in the experiencing of it, to get the information you need in order to get back to feeling good. (link). Then begin to acknowledge that you are your feelings (instead of having feelings). Once you do that you have a choice which way to direct your affective energy, for instance the felicitous and innocuous feelings.

Nipping in the bud is only useful when you recognize a thought- or feeling pattern that you have already recognized, investigated and resolved and which may pop up as a habitual hang-over, so to speak.

Richard: The phrase ‘nipping them in the bud’ is not to be confused with either suppression/ repression or ignoring/ avoiding … it is to be consciously and deliberatively – with knowledge aforethought – declining oh-so-sensibly to futilely go down that well-trodden path to nowhere fruitful yet again. (Richard, This Moment of Being Alive, Tool-tip after “nipping in the bud”).

I recommend re-reading the above article, especially after the third banner, and include the informative tool-tips. Each time you read it and can recognize it as your own applied experience, the understanding deepens.

Cheers Vineeto

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deleted double posting

Hi Vineeto,

I have been sifting a lot through the majority of my social moors this past month and change, like loyalty and “politeness” and belonging. I would like to write about some of what I’ve been finding at some point but the exploration has unearthed a lot of uncomfortable ways in which I constantly punish and contort myself to beg for scraps of love.

The more I’ve become aware of this, the more I’ve been noticing an organic confidence start to emerge: not my previous false bravado used as a social tool to gain admiration, but just a calm self-assuredness that is comfortable saying and doing what it wants without constantly apologizing for itself.

My illness is a particularly nasty bout of long COVID, which keeps my energy levels fairly low even when my mental state is pleasant. However my symptoms are greatly exacerbated by stress, be it physical or psychological, which has made me acutely aware of how much stress emotions place upon my body. I recently experienced a week-long systemic crash which left me bedridden in response to some intense emotions triggered by menstrual hormones. My doctors say avoiding triggering such crashes is key to recovery, which has given me all the more incentive to stop letting my usual emotional cycles run entirely unchecked and wreak actual physical havoc.

Thanks for the distinction. This makes sense - I think sometimes I continue to humor the thought/feeling cycles because I figure if they still hurt then they still have something to teach me that I haven’t fully explored. I don’t know whether that’s true. For example my mom suffered a lot in her childhood and lives a scared life and thinking about this makes me cry. I guess I can’t say this thought/emotion cycle is entirely without utility because it has helped me break a habitual callousness towards the anxiety of my mother and allows me to be patient and kind with her very easily. However I don’t know at what point continuing to cry over it becomes unnecessary.

The same is true of many of my tears inspired by compassion: it leads me to operate with less selfishness, more awareness of others, more attention to those who deal with painful disadvantages in life who I would have previously overlooked. But of course there’s a limit to the utility, and the tears certainly aren’t useful if they are contributing to stressing my system and thus keeping me ill and largely bedridden.

I have more thoughts and observations that I will share at another point. Thank you for you input and for the link you shared, they were helpful reads.

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This is very related to another thing I have been musing. I live in the US and our current government is enacting policies which are skewing towards authoritarianism. They are acting abhorrently towards our immigrant populations, attempting to undermine intellectual institutions, and deregulating businesses allowing them greater license to extort, manipulate, and poison our population and environment. Their actions by and large feel very obviously bad for humanity to me, and I have been contending with feelings of intense anger and hatred.

If the people in charge were shipped off to the same terrible prisons that they are sending immigrants to, if they were struck with awful disabilities like the people they are trying to pull social support away from, there is something in me that would be happy to see it. This is malice.

My mind tries to justify it by saying that the function of hate is to eradicate things which threaten our survival and wellbeing. For example, the desire to kill mosquitoes, which spread disease. However it is pretty ineffective here since it isn’t really driving action, it’s mostly just another emotional stressor which exacerbates my symptoms. And people being manipulated by media into hating each other is the whole thing that has led the US to this point. I can’t really pretend there’s anything noble or functional about hatred there.

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Scout: Hi Vineeto,
I have been sifting a lot through the majority of my social moors this past month and change, like loyalty and “politeness” and belonging. I would like to write about some of what I’ve been finding at some point but the exploration has unearthed a lot of uncomfortable ways in which I constantly punish and contort myself to beg for scraps of love.

Hi Scout,

While it is great that you have “unearthed” ways in which you “punish and contort” yourself, let me tell you that the way forward is to be friends with yourself – the human condition is something you were born with (and hence not responsible for) and not something to blame yourself for, let alone “punish and contort” yourself for. When you treat yourself in a friendly (not condemnatory) fashion you are also less in need “to beg for scraps of love”. You may even start genuinely liking yourself and consequently like your fellow human beings.

What you can do instead is to feel good and appreciate that you been attentive enough to bring all this to light (as in regard this as the fascinating discovery it is and equally judge it cool that you have seen it) and then, when you are feeling good, have a more clear-eyed look at one of the issues you “unearthed” and assess if it is worth keeping it as a problem or perhaps discard it as being a silly habit, simply because it interferes with your sincere intent to be happy and harmless.

This sincere intent will also guide you which “moors” you can safely loosen without harming yourself and your fellow human being. The necessity for morals/ ethics/ values/ principles cannot be cast aside/ dismantled until an essential prerequisite, pure intent, born of a pure consciousness experience, is genuinely established.

Scout: The more I’ve become aware of this, the more I’ve been noticing an organic confidence start to emerge: not my previous false bravado used as a social tool to gain admiration, but just a calm self-assuredness that is comfortable saying and doing what it wants without constantly apologizing for itself.

“A calm self-assuredness” is a good initial sign that you are on the right track. However, given the cunning of ‘you’, the identity, an affective attentiveness is advisable so that this “self-assuredness” and “organic confidence” can safely segue into being naïve, like a child again with adult sensibilities. I am saying this not because I expect you to become licentious or malicious but because I know from experience how the identity is endeavouring to retain/ regain control by swinging from one side to the opposite of the emotional spectrum.

As such, all it takes is to be aware of/ attentive to the slightest diminishment of whatever degree of felicity/ innocuity one is currently experiencing and recognize it as a warning signal (a flashing red light as it were) that one has inadvertently wandered off the way.

Scout: My illness is a particularly nasty bout of long COVID, which keeps my energy levels fairly low even when my mental state is pleasant. However, my symptoms are greatly exacerbated by stress, be it physical or psychological, which has made me acutely aware of how much stress emotions place upon my body. I recently experienced a week-long systemic crash which left me bedridden in response to some intense emotions triggered by menstrual hormones. My doctors say avoiding triggering such crashes is key to recovery, which has given me all the more incentive to stop letting my usual emotional cycles run entirely unchecked and wreak actual physical havoc.

This is great that even doctors recognize the role emotional stress plays in sabotaging your physical wellbeing. The solution is to channel all your identity-enhancing affective energy into the identity-diminishing felicitous and innocuous feelings.

Vineeto: Nipping in the bud is only useful when you recognize a thought- or feeling pattern that you have already recognized, investigated and resolved and which may pop up as a habitual hang-over, so to speak.

Scout: Thanks for the distinction. This makes sense – I think sometimes I continue to humor the thought/ feeling cycles because I figure if they still hurt then they still have something to teach me that I haven’t fully explored. I don’t know whether that’s true.

This quote from Richard may help –

Richard: What the identity inhabiting this flesh and blood body all those years ago would do is first get back to feeling good and then, and only then, suss out where, when, how, why – and what for – feeling bad happened as experience had shown ‘him’ that it was counter-productive to do otherwise.
What ‘he’ always did however, as it was often tempting to just get on with life then, was to examine what it was all about within half-an-hour of getting back to feeling good (while the memory was still fresh) even if it meant sometimes falling back into feeling bad by doing so … else it would crop up again sooner or later.
Nothing, but nothing, can be swept under the carpet. (Richard, AF List, No. 68c, 31 May 2005).

Scout: For example my mom suffered a lot in her childhood and lives a scared life and thinking about this makes me cry. I guess I can’t say this thought/ emotion cycle is entirely without utility because it has helped me break a habitual callousness towards the anxiety of my mother and allows me to be patient and kind with her very easily. However I don’t know at what point continuing to cry over it becomes unnecessary.

While it is beneficial to understand that your mother (like many others) had a difficult childhood, there is no reason why you should suffer yourself (feel sad and cry) because of it – this only perpetuates suffering but does never resolve it. “To cry over it” is entirely “unnecessary”, particularly as it already has “helped me break a habitual callousness”. There may perhaps be another reason why you are still crying for something that happened a long time ago – perhaps what I said above applies here – “the identity is endeavouring to retain/ regain control by swinging from one side to the opposite of the emotional spectrum”. And all this to avoid you feeling good! It’s a natural survival tactic of ‘you’, the identity to stay in situ, but it can be recognized with fascinated attentiveness and intelligence.

Scout: The same is true of many of my tears inspired by compassion: it leads me to operate with less selfishness, more awareness of others, more attention to those who deal with painful disadvantages in life who I would have previously overlooked. But of course there’s a limit to the utility, and the tears certainly aren’t useful if they are contributing to stressing my system and thus keeping me ill and largely bedridden.

Ha, indeed, it’s as if you are doing penance for a previously discovered “selfishness” instead of appreciating that you were able to identify it and leave it behind. Again, a cunning trick of ‘you’, the identity, to ensure that the cycle of suffering (and malice, in this case against yourself) never ends. The only way to escape the cycle of malice and sorrow is to channel all your affective energy into the felicitous and innocuous feelings. Btw, tears are a common way to fritter away affective energy which is more beneficially used to enjoy and appreciate being alive.

Scout: I have more thoughts and observations that I will share at another point. Thank you for you input and for the link you shared, they were helpful reads. (link)

I am looking forward to it, Scout.

Cheers Vineeto

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Scout: This is very related to another thing I have been musing. I live in the US and our current government is enacting policies which are skewing towards authoritarianism. They are acting abhorrently towards our immigrant populations, attempting to undermine intellectual institutions, and deregulating businesses allowing them greater license to extort, manipulate, and poison our population and environment. Their actions by and large feel very obviously bad for humanity to me, and I have been contending with feelings of intense anger and hatred.
If the people in charge were shipped off to the same terrible prisons that they are sending immigrants to, if they were struck with awful disabilities like the people they are trying to pull social support away from, there is something in me that would be happy to see it. This is malice.
My mind tries to justify it by saying that the function of hate is to eradicate things which threaten our survival and wellbeing. For example, the desire to kill mosquitoes, which spread disease. However it is pretty ineffective here since it isn’t really driving action, it’s mostly just another emotional stressor which exacerbates my symptoms. And people being manipulated by media into hating each other is the whole thing that has led the US to this point. I can’t really pretend there’s anything noble or functional about hatred there. (link)

Hi Scout,

As you wrote this message to Kuba I’ll let him answer it.

I’ll just make one short comment – it helps to research both sides of the political aisle and check on some factual evidence, if possible, of what either side is saying. Politics is a very tribal business and you don’t just want to follow any feelings of loyalty and belonging when you favour one side over the other. While malice and sorrow are prevalent in all human beings, including media and politician, there is also (more rare), genuine good will, common sense and caring for the community.

Cheers Vineeto

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