No, I don’t recognize that I need to whole-heartedly agree to my demise. I was talking about a preliminary stage. Sorry for making it sound like a false alarm.
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James: The key for me is seeing that the fact of self-immolation is that the feeler is in the way.
Vineeto: When you (in vain) try to remove “the feeler”, remember that you are the feeler, just as you are your feelings and your feelings are you. Does “seeing that fact” have “an effect” on ‘you’? Do you recognize that ‘you’ need to whole-heartedly agree to ‘your’ demise because ‘you’ are “in the way”?
James: No, I don’t recognize that I need to whole-heartedly agree to my demise. I was talking about a preliminary stage. Sorry for making it sound like a false alarm. (link)
Let me say it in Richard’s words, because in October 2002 you understood the process, at least intellectually. Perhaps it can click now experientially as well, when, as Richard says, you read with both eyes open, i.e. with all your being.
Richard to James: It is this feeling of ‘self’ (and of ‘other’ of course) which is the illusion … and it is this feeling ‘self’, the feeler (‘me’ as soul), the ‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being (which is ‘being’ itself), who gives rise to the thinking ‘self’, the thinker (‘I’ as ego), which is where cognitive self-consciousness has become cognitive ‘self’-consciousness. (List B, James2, 17 Oct 2002).
James: Are you saying then that in order to eliminate the ‘I’ and the ‘me’ that the instinctual passions themselves have to be eliminated …
Richard: No … and the reason why not is this simple: who would be doing the eliminating of the instinctual passions? As ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’ it is an impossibility because the result of trying to do so would be a stripped-down rudimentary animal ‘self’ (seemingly) divested of feelings … somewhat like what is known in psychiatric terminology as a ‘sociopathic personality’ (popularly known as ‘psychopath’). [emphasis added].
Richard: In the end, only altruistic ‘self’-immolation, for the benefit of this body and that body and every body, will release the flesh and blood body from its parasitical resident and, as ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’, the end of ‘me’ is the end of ‘my’ feelings (aka the instinctual passions and all their cultivated derivations).
James: Isn’t it the ‘I’ and the ‘me’ investigating itself which brings one to the point of self-immolation and isn’t it the ‘I’/‘me’ that makes the decision to self-immolate?
Richard: Yes … only ‘I’ can do it as it is all in ‘my’ hands and nobody else’s hands (nor is it in the hands of any god or goddess either, of course, despite some popular postulations to the contrary).
James: You said above that the ‘I’/‘me’ cannot eliminate the instinctual passions but then you next said that the body is released from them by self-immolation. I am just trying to get a clear picture of it.
Richard: Okay … I was just making the point that, although it is hypothetically correct that the elimination of the instinctual passions would be the elimination of ‘I’/‘me’, it does not work that way in practice (for reasons such as already explained further above).
Not only is it dangerous it is an impossibility … only altruistic ‘self’-immolation will do the trick. (List B, James2, 19 Oct 2002).
Cheers Vineeto
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Thanks for this. I do understand what you and Richard are saying that only altruism can lead to self-immolation.
Let me try and clarify what I meant. In looking at what I see as the fact of self-immolation I noticed that the ‘me’ is what is in the way. In seeing this as a fact I noticed that the ‘me’ seemed to lose its grip. This is all that I am saying.
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I also found this below convo very instructive(and it was with you James hehe)…At some point in time this has to happen and I know from experience because around a decade back I had gone out from control for a day and there was a sense of abandoning humanity and pulled forward and attracted towards actuality
JAMES: Are you saying that when the time is right I simply abandon the instincts?
RICHARD: One abandons ‘humanity’. And one knows ‘when the time is ripe’ because one finds out these things as they are happening or after they have happened and the realisation that this abandon is actually happening is stimulating, to say the least (there are weird feelings such as ‘a rat deserting a sinking ship’ to feel for example). One will no longer belong anymore to the largest group there is … ‘humanity’ (which is way, way past all gender groups, racial groups, age groups and other social groups).
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What’s interesting is that as a feeling being it may appear that abandoning humanity isn’t altruism so it’s the wrong approach lol
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That is interesting. Are you saying then that abandoning humanity is altruism? I never saw that before but I can see the connection. Things are getting ‘thin on the ground’ for me as Richard called it.
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Vineeto: Let me say it in Richard’s words, because in October 2002 you understood the process, at least intellectually. Perhaps it can click now experientially as well, when, as Richard says, you read with both eyes open, i.e. with all your being.
Richard: In the end, only altruistic ‘self’-immolation, for the benefit of this body and that body and every body, will release the flesh and blood body from its parasitical resident and, as ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’, the end of ‘me’ is the end of ‘my’ feelings (aka the instinctual passions and all their cultivated derivations).
Shashank: I also found this below convo very instructive (and it was with you James hehe) …
James: Are you saying that when the time is right I simply abandon the instincts?
Richard: One abandons ‘humanity’. And one knows ‘when the time is ripe’ because one finds out these things as they are happening or after they have happened and the realisation that this abandon is actually happening is stimulating, to say the least (there are weird feelings such as ‘a rat deserting a sinking ship’ to feel for example). One will no longer belong anymore to the largest group there is … ‘humanity’ (which is way, way past all gender groups, racial groups, age groups and other social groups). (Richard, List B, James, 16 Nov 1999).
James: Thanks for this. I do understand what you and Richard are saying that only altruism can lead to self-immolation.
Let me try and clarify what I meant. In looking at what I see as the fact of self-immolation I noticed that the ‘me’ is what is in the way. In seeing this as a fact I noticed that the ‘me’ seemed to lose its grip. This is all that I am saying. (link)
Shashank: What’s interesting is that as a feeling being it may appear that abandoning humanity isn’t altruism so it’s the wrong approach lol
James: That is interesting. Are you saying then that abandoning humanity is altruism? I never saw that before but I can see the connection. Things are getting ‘thin on the ground’ for me as Richard called it. (link)
Hi James,
It is good news that “the ‘me’ seemed to lose its grip”, as long as this occurrence is not based on dis-association.
Abandoning humanity is not altruism per se because the ‘self’ is still present. Richard called abandoning humanity the pen-ultimate step, the second-to-last step to ‘self-immolation, so it is certainly the right direction.
Richard: Then curiosity becomes fascination … and then the fun begins to gain a momentum of its own. One is drawn inexorably further and further towards one’s destiny … fascination leads to commitment and one can know when one’s commitment is approaching a 100% commitment because others around one will classify one as ‘obsessed’ (in spite of all their rhetoric a 100% commitment to evoking peace-on-earth is actively discouraged by one’s peers). Eventually one realises that one is on one’s own in this, the adventure of a life-time, and a peculiar tenacity that enables one to proceed against all odds ensues. Then one takes the penultimate step … one abandons ‘humanity’.
An actual freedom from the human condition then unfolds its inevitable destiny’. (Richard, List B, No. 45, 14 Nov 1999).
The answer to James’ question prior to the above presented correspondence explains in detail how to move towards your aim –
James: I’m not clear as to how one eliminates the instincts after one has become intimate with them and then has a 100% commitment. Does this happen on its own or is there something that I need to do?
Richard: It happens on its own in that, as ‘I’ am the instinctual passions and the instinctual passions are ‘me’, there is no way that ‘I’ can end ‘me’. What ‘I’ do is that ‘I’ deliberately and consciously and with knowledge aforethought set in motion a ‘process’ that will ensure ‘my’ demise. What ‘I’ do, voluntarily and willingly, is to press the button – which is to acquiesce – which precipitates an oft-times alarming but always thrilling momentum that will result in ‘my’ inevitable self-immolation. The acquiescing is that one thus dedicates oneself to being here as the universe’s experience of itself now … it is the unreserved !YES! to being alive as this flesh and blood body. Peace-on-earth is the inevitable result of such devotion because it is already here … it is always here now. ‘I’ and/or ‘me’ was merely standing in the way of the already always existing perfect purity from becoming apparent by sitting back and moaning and groaning about the inequity of it all (as epitomised in ‘I didn’t ask to be born’). How can one be forever sticking one’s toe in and testing out the waters and yet expect to be able to look at oneself in the mirror each morning with dignity.
The act of initiating this ‘process’ – acquiescence – is to embrace death.
The 100% commitment happens of its own accord too; unlike the commitment one normally makes as a vow or a resolution (which can be broken after a lot of ‘soul-searching’ and heart-ache) the 100% commitment cannot be undone. This means one is already committed to finding out and there is no pulling back – which is why most people do not want to start – because once one has started, one cannot stop … it is a one-way trip. (Richard, List B, James, 16 Nov 1999).
You say that “‘things are getting thin on the ground’ for me” and as such it is vitally important that you are giving your “unreserved !YES! to being alive as this flesh and blood body”. This “unreserved !YES!” activates a joyful naiveté, an exuberant anticipation, resulting in experiencing the pure intent, which will safely guide you in the direction you want to proceed – an actual freedom outside of the human condition.
Cheers Vineeto
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Aah yes…Thanks for clarifying this distinction !..I thought as much that its a penultimate step indeed
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I watched a video on ‘you tube’ about why most people don’t live long after 80 yrs. The body goes through a lot of physiological changes at this age which causes weakening.
It said that perhaps the best thing that one can do to offset this is to keep a positive mindset.
I thought of things I have to be positive about:
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I can still enjoy and appreciate by experiencing my senses.
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I can still be on my feet and walk.
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I can still have great sex.
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My pain is still tolerable with the help of some pain meds that my doctor is prescribing me.
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I have a good doctor.
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I can still become actually free before I die.
More to come when and if I think of it.
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I can still make plenty money w/o working by investing from my home.
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I am still feeling good.
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