Hi everyone,
For those of you who are interested to learn more of what happens after you become newly free/ basically free here is a report about my own process after becoming basically free, with descriptions from Richard and correspondences with two basically free people - Srinath and Geoffrey. (link). (There is also a link on the AFT Homepage for easy access.)
Enjoy.
Cheers Vineeto
6 Likes
This is fascinating, I am so glad to see Geoffreyâs recent correspondence. I often wondered why him and Srinath didnât write more on the forum but this is clearer now.
I have only just started going through the page but there are a few things I wanted to highlight already :
Geoffrey wrote :
It might be that the problems seen within this generation of actually free people I belong to (the apparent inability to move beyond the guardian phase, and the resultant inappropriate display of what actual freedom is), have to do with the âeaseâ of the direct route itself, the fact that one may just â go for it*â* as soon as one wants to (âŚ), without any significant period spent working towards or living in virtual freedom. Itâs a positive, for sure, that it is this âeasyâ, as there is no reason that people may not start becoming actually free in droves right now⌠and itâs kind of puzzling that they donât
Vinneto wrote :
To sum it up â
Geoffrey: âThe presence of social identity, with regards to infinitude, acts like a centre. Whatever whittling away at it has taken place, this essential feature remains. The centre creates bounded-ness. The world then appears to be a snow globe, the sky as its dome, and the limit of oneâs perception at the horizon its limit. This pocket world moves along with one at its centre.â (21 June 2024). [emphasis added].
As such, this âpresence of social identityâ, which âacts like a centreâ is what âyouâ are, and dictates âhow an actual freedom should be acted outâ. As such âyouâ will not only interpret any experiences of expansion and clarity according to the values of your remnant social identity but also might be fooled into thinking âyouâ have disappeared when âyouâ have not. Ergo, the social identity needs to be fully understood in all its facets and abandon itself, at first one by one aspect until it can be perceived as one whole. Only then âthis pocket worldâ is ready to disappear/ willingly and contentedly abdicate.
So just to be clear, self-immolation is the eradication of the feeling being only (in both itâs soul and ego expressions) it is not the ending of identity in toto however. A âwraithlike presenceâ persists, still an âIâ of some remnant description (although no longer fuelled by the instinctual passions).
Which segues into what Geoffrey wrote about self immolation being so easy that he is somewhat puzzled that people arenât doing it in drones. Is the ease related to the fact that one doesnât immediately eradicate the identity in toto? One doesnât need to resolve every aspect of the societal conditioning, instead one eliminates the feeling being as it is so obviously rotten to the very core.
But I know that I have often viewed self immolation as not only the ending of the feeling being but the ending of âmeâ in any form whatsoever (including any societal restraints). As if there would be an immediate and total shift into the âgenderless, ageless, shapeless and limitless attributes of the boundless universe.â
It does seem extremely doable considering that all of the societal conditioning will remain, so any worries about âexiting humanityâ too early and becoming some kind of lunatic can be left behind.
I can see that this utterly rotten core that is âmeâ as a feeling being really has no excuse for existing at all, it could disappear now and there would only be benefit. Because all the societal conditioning was only developed to keep this rotten core in check and it is exactly this rotten core that is responsible for all the sorrow and all the malice.
The societal conditioning seems a little more tricky to see through in this sense, because it has a purpose, to keep the feeling being in check.
This persistence of the guardian after self immolation means that really there is no excuse not to do it right away.
I appreciate these kinds of conversations need to be had carefully as not to muddy the waters, I think now is a good and safe time to have them, with @Vineetoâs involvement on the forum. I would advise for others to remain cautious of what I wrote however.
3 Likes
Yes I thought the same after reading it! 
At this point everything seems very straightforward and itâs just a matter of doing it, whatever the last bits of objection may be. Just yesterday I would say I had two issues that would be major, core-of-identity-level huge ones, and once I got down to actually puzzling it out they were resolved very quickly.
One was relating to my partner, being unhappy with various minutia that was piling up, and I simply realized that the root of it was a feeling that I had to suffer for her to be happy. And I saw that that just wasnât true, I donât have to do that for her nor her for me. That really brought the intimacy and fun immediately back with the disappearance of that unhappiness! And that simple realization is all it took.
The other was seeing with being upset in general, that itâs my choice if I want to be upset. That is a way to choose to live my life if I want to. In other words I saw it wasnât a moral choice but a âwhat do you want to do?â choice. And of course with seeing it that way it was blindingly obvious that choosing to enjoy and appreciate being alive is far better 
So I would say prospects are good and itâs just a matter of doing it now!
Cheers,
Claudiu
3 Likes
Now my next question is, where does agency fall in this regard? Does agency disappear completely with the feeling being or is agency wrapped up with the societal aspects, as in does this âwraithlike presenceâ attempt to assert some form of agency, even after the dissolution of the feeling being? It seems it does as it - âdictates âhow an actual freedom should be acted outââ.
I donât know exactly but it does seem that there is some actual agency, which is the flesh and blood body effortlessly deciding what to do next (in a similar way as rainwater âdecidesâ which way to flow down a leaf or a vine), and then there is any other type of agency, be it the feeling-being or the social identity/guardian or anything else, which is only ever an illusion of being agency but actually isnât. The experience of being out-from-control is that I get caught up in that illusion and then I realize the illusion had âcaptured meâ again (although the illusion is me 
), but I never actually had agency during that duration of being captured.
Which makes it odd that I the feeling-being can effectuate actual-world outcomes (directing this body to do this or that)⌠it is all rather strange. Will be a delight to be free of such things!
2 Likes
Kuba: This persistence of the guardian after self immolation means that really there is no excuse not to do it right away.
I appreciate these kinds of conversations need to be had carefully as not to muddy the waters, I think now is a good and safe time to have them, with @Vineetoâs involvement on the forum. I would advise for others to remain cautious of what I wrote however.
Hi Kuba,
Indeed there is no excuse not to self-immolate right away. Since Richard wrote the Formation and Persistence of Social Identity (link) we know that the social identity/guardian persists after self-immolation and that it needs to be observed carefully and dealt with afterwards. However, as I stated, when the instinctual passions and the feeling being formed thereof are extinct it is, much easier to diligently re-examine any false notions one may have picked up about what is actual.
I like your advice for anyone to be cautious, because the social identity can still create non-passionate but nevertheless false identities.
Kuba: Now my next question is, where does agency fall in this regard? Does agency disappear completely with the feeling being or is agency wrapped up with the societal aspects, as in does this âwraithlike presenceâ attempt to assert some form of agency, even after the dissolution of the feeling being? It seems it does as it - âdictates âhow an actual freedom should be acted outââ.
The question about agency (as a general term) is inconclusive because agency applies to feelings, social identity and acting as a fully free person with pure intent. Even if I go shopping, I employ agency for timing or shopping list, for instance, so agency is still needed.
Just one definition (there are more in the Abditorium, link) â
⢠agency: intervening action towards an end; action personified; a source of action towards an end. ~ (Oxford Dictionary)
Agency is used at any stage of your process. Perhaps you can specify what exactly you mean by the agency in question or use another word. So far I have to guess too much in order to properly answer your query.
Cheers Vineeto
Looking back at the words - self immolation they make more sense now, itâs not called identity immolation. It is the eradication of the self, which is an affective presence, an amorphous entity which automatically forms out of the instictual passions bestowed by blind nature.
Yes I will properly read your reply and get back to you ASAP @Vineeto, I am out at the moment so I just quickly jotted down that previous post.
1 Like
OK letâs see if I can untangle this somewhat, so it appears I have somehow conflated the absence of identity with the absence of agency. âAbsence of agencyâ in this regard would refer to something like I described below, some version of that fear of becoming a âleaf blowing in the windâ :
It seems what I am trying to get at when I refer to agency is the ability to act with intent and to implement intelligent action based on this intent.
So really your and @claudiuâs answer has clarified this already. Agency remains throughout, it is only the âselfâ taking itself as the âagentâ which is eliminated. And so it seems one of my main objections was based on a misunderstandingâŚ
And I have often wondered about this because in my PCEs it was always clear that there is still agency, as in I am not a zombie or a leaf blowing in the wind. There is very clearly the ability to act with intent and to implement intelligent action based on this intent. In some way I imagined that actual freedom must be more extreme than that haha.
Oh determinism is the perfect word for what I imagined would happen after self immolation, that there would no longer be agency and life would simply play out in a deterministic manner.
1 Like
@Vineeto Congratulations on posting these excellent articles!
About the writings of mine quoted there, and in case some of it appears mysterious or simply of interest to some of you, let me announce that Iâll be working on a full report that will flesh out what led to the âeventâ described, as well as what followed after it (hint: other events 
).
Just give me some time, as the level of quality Vineeto has displayed sets the bar quite high!
8 Likes
Hi Kuba, Hi Claudiu,
Regarding our recent discussion about agency (link) and (link), here I found a quote from Richard, which answers Kubaâs âissue at core [âŚ] around this old dichotomy of free will vs determinismâ (link) really clear without using the word âagencyâ â
RESPONDENT: Richard, I have been considering what people mean by âfree-willâ or âfreedom of choiceâ, etc.
RICHARD: You may find the following to be of interest:
⢠[Co-Respondent]: âYou think you have free will?
⢠[Richard]: âNo.
⢠[Co-Respondent]: âWhat determines your actions?
⢠[Richard]: âThe situation and the circumstances in the world of people, things and eventsâ. (Richard, List C, No. 2a, 13 March 2000a).
And:
⢠[Richard]: âThe ego â or even the soul as pure spirit â is not to be confused with will. The bodily needs are what motivates will â and will is nothing more grand than the nerve-organising data-correlating ability of the body â and it is will that is essential in order to operate and function ⌠not an identity. Will is an organising process, an activity of the brain that correlates all the information and data that streams through the bodily senses. Will is not a âthingâ, a subjectively substantial passionate âobjectâ, like the identity is. Will, freed of the encumbrance of the ego and soul â which are born out of instinctual fear and aggression and nurture and desire â can operate smoothly, with actual sagacity. The operation of this freed will, is called intelligence. This intelligence is the bodyâs native intelligence ⌠and has naught to do with any disembodied âIntelligence behind the Universeâ It is a joy to be me going about my business with freed-will in this wonderful physical worldâ. (page 76, Article 10; âRichardâs Journalâ; Second Edition Š2004 The Actual Freedom Trust).
Comes a bit of a shock, that in actuality there is neither âdeterminismâ nor âfree willâ but instead âthis freed will, called intelligence.â 
Cheers Vineeto
4 Likes
Yes thank you, this topic is cleared up to me now. No more fears of becoming a zombie 
It seems part of the confusion is the tendency of âbeingsâ to project other âbeingsâ, in the sense that will or intelligence is turned into a âthing in itselfâ, and so now the question of determinism or free will simply shifts the goal posts.
I can see that will or intelligence is simply a process, it is not a âthing in itselfâ but rather the very brain in operation, no âdisembodied forceâ necessary.
3 Likes