Andrew

Journals
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I had some success today, a few hours ago in the late afternoon. Last night and this morning were sub-neutral, to slightly bad. Lots of tiredness and resistance to the chore of doing anything about the “bulging carpet “. A few efforts last night, but mainly resistance and a strong thought /feeling something like: “I don’t think I can do this, I want to, but how? Every other time I I tried to journal, or work things out, whatever success I have fades”.

Later this morning, a lot of old objections to actualism came up. I pondered these, and thought that it was obvious that I am not going to go forward without looking into them again. It didn’t take too long, and I won’t write about them, as they are obviously ‘me’ doing ‘me’ things. Around that time, I started feeling a lot better. I had done some AFT reading last night, and in the morning, especially rereading the “peasant mentality “ articles and discussions.

I decided that now I was feeling good, I would go for a walk. For the purposes of setting the scene for the success later, I am living in a rich suburb which is very peaceful and situated next to the river. Feeling that “fresh feeling “ that I am learning to look out for and sustain, I was enjoying a picturesque experience as the sun and breeze enhanced the freshness. I was looking at all the extremely expensive houses by the river, enjoying looking at them and gardens, and seeing the balconies I liked, and magnificent gum trees. After a while I started to critique a few houses I didn’t like. An internal dialogue of criticism. I noticed within 50 meters that the fresh feeling wasn’t there! It was so obvious what had happened. The “tracing back to when I last felt good “ was only 50 meters behind me! Identifying what ‘I’ had done, and rememorating the fresh feeling, and it was back!

I am very pleased with this event. I don’t remember ever having so obviously and swiftly affectively noticed “feeling good” ceasing, and got back to feeling good simply be identifying when it ceased.

Now, obviously, being in an affluent suburb, by an peaceful river, in the lovely late afternoon sun with Perths famous “freo doctor” breeze on my face, was a big part of giving me this experience. However, it still was the method as advertised!

A win is a win, as they say.:smile:

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Just testing how to link from the AFT, don’t mind me!

https://www.actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/vineeto/list-af/corr66b.htm#:~:text=As%20a%20reminder,only%20sensible%20choice

Edit: this way is cool. “Link with highlights “ on the iPad.

I was looking for something else though, where Vineeto writes about “learning to think” and not change the topic when things are too close to home. Searching “thinking” or “learning to think” is too generic.

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Hi Andrew,

Roy found it recently - Audiotaped Dialogues, Silly and Sensible.

Good night, I’m off to bed.

Cheers Vineeto

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Thanks Vineeto, good night.

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Discussion of Non-Actualist Topics)

Vineeto: “First, it is good to get some method in one’s way of thinking. When I met Richard, this is what I remember as one of the first things we talked about – how to think, contemplate and inquire in a way that there is some result. He told me that it is useful to always come back to the question or topic from where I started and not – as our untrained brains tend to do – get lost in the different alleys and branches of speculation, imagination or irrelevant side-issues. Particularly when the subject is emotionally challenging, when a dearly-held belief is questioned and when fear arises, we are usually very quick in changing the subject and steering away from the ‘dangerous’ area. But when investigating the Human Condition in oneself, there will be lots of ‘dangerous’ areas of contemplation, there will be beliefs to be dismantled and emotions to unveil. That’s the whole purpose of the investigation in the first place, to discover the underlying beliefs and instinctual passions of a certain behaviour or emotional reaction, to uncover and eliminate one’s very ‘self’. (Vineeto, List AF, No 15, 08.5.1999)”

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Vineeto: “As a reminder – because it personally took me a long time to really ‘get’ it – actualism is not about not feeling, but about understanding and then letting go of all the aspects of ‘me’ who generates and maintains the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’ feelings and who prevents the felicitous/ innocuous feelings. This process will in time diminish the power of the instinctual passions to a point where stepping out of the ‘self’ altogether is the only sensible choice.”
Emphasis added.

This really helps me. To sort the “big ticket” items, from the normal “dollar store” stuff. Today, was a classic “big ticket” item for me, (catching myself after going off on an internal criticism, which is a very common theme, it was in the form of an imaginary lecture of sorts to some undefined audience). I know this, because I have felt good ever since.

There has been plenty of thoughts since then, and none have reduced the mood.

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Andrew: I had done some AFT reading last night, and in the morning, especially rereading the “peasant mentality” articles and discussions.
I decided that now I was feeling good, I would go for a walk. For the purposes of setting the scene for the success later, I am living in a rich suburb which is very peaceful and situated next to the river. Feeling that “fresh feeling” that I am learning to look out for and sustain, I was enjoying a picturesque experience as the sun and breeze enhanced the freshness. I was looking at all the extremely expensive houses by the river, enjoying looking at them and gardens, and seeing the balconies I liked, and magnificent gum trees. After a while I started to critique a few houses I didn’t like. An internal dialogue of criticism. I noticed within 50 meters that the fresh feeling wasn’t there! It was so obvious what had happened. The “tracing back to when I last felt good” was only 50 meters behind me! Identifying what ‘I’ had done, and rememorating the fresh feeling, and it was back!
I am very pleased with this event. I don’t remember ever having so obviously and swiftly affectively noticed “feeling good” ceasing, and got back to feeling good simply be identifying when it ceased.
Now, obviously, being in an affluent suburb, by an peaceful river, in the lovely late afternoon sun with Perth’s famous “freo doctor” breeze on my face, was a big part of giving me this experience. However, it still was the method as advertised!
A win is a win, as they say. (link)

Hi Andrew,

This is a great example of the actualism method in practice, and I am pleased that you can appreciate your discovery as well. It’s a recipe for success to refrain from a habit of criticising anything and everything for no good reason other than it doesn’t please your trained/ conditioned eye – or anything else for that matter which has nothing to do with your life and well-being. There is a big difference between judging/ assessing a thing, a situation, and habitually dishing out criticism.

‘Vineeto’: “As a reminder – because it personally took me a long time to really ‘get’ it – actualism is not about not feeling, but about understanding and then letting go of all the aspects of ‘me’ who generates and maintains the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’ feelings and who prevents the felicitous/ innocuous feelings. This process will in time diminish the power of the instinctual passions to a point where stepping out of the ‘self’ altogether is the only sensible choice.” [Emphasis added]. (Actualism, Vineeto, AF List, No. 66b, 1.2.2005).

Andrew: This really helps me. To sort the “big ticket” items, from the normal “dollar store” stuff. Today, was a classic “big ticket” item for me, (catching myself after going off on an internal criticism, which is a very common theme, it was in the form of an imaginary lecture of sorts to some undefined audience). I know this, because I have felt good ever since.
There has been plenty of thoughts since then, and none have reduced the mood. (link)

I see you are finding some good advice to continue to feel good and put it to good use – rather than go mooching around in neutral.

You may also be interested in this text from ‘Vineeto’ – How to investigate feelings. (Actualism, Vineeto, Selected Writings, Investigate Feelings).

It includes part of the actualism method with illuminating tool tips.

Cheers Vineeto

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Thanks Vineeto,

That had me snort chuckle!

I have been reading a lot more of the AFT. Essentially, from the start! As I have been interested for so long, there is a lot that I thought I knew. Some things I never really read and I had never dealt with the feelings I would have, caused by the various expectations I had when first encountering Actualism.

There are some insights into various current feelings, specifically being able to put them in categories. Sounds basic, but for example, I had never looked at what boredom is. There is definitely aggression there.

Overall, I can see that I am gathering up some intent. Lots of it has been scattered around, over the years, but without a clear understanding of exactly how to proceed from where I am at.

There has always been a lot of aggression in my way of being. I have been feeling it all day actually. As it is not something that has been triggered by anything in particular, it’s obviously an answer to the question of what it “under the carpet “.

I have been gathering up more information from the AFT, going back into all the things I never understood, or had objected to, or only half read.

Currently, reading through the accounts of the time around Peter and yourself becoming free, Richard’s last writing, his experience with being the first and what was causing that mental anguish. That last one has actually, only about 30 mins ago, sparked something in me. Being the first to realise that all the godmen were completely insane! But not just realise, to be as he put it

In psychiatric terms the neurons were agitated: energised and excited with an excess of dopamine in the post-synaptic receptors, described as being similar to the effect of amphetamines, cocaine or LSD … yet nothing could be done about it with psychiatry’s extensive arsenal of anti-psychotic drugs. Initially I had no alternative but to seek resolution in terms of either ‘the known’ (psychiatry) and/or ‘the unknown’ (mysticism) … and I knew from eleven years experience that no mystic could be of any assistance whatsoever.I was truly on my own.The mental anguish was in determining the validity of uncharted territory – 5,000 years of recorded history and perhaps 50,000 years of oral tradition made no mention of this dimension of human experience – for I was irreversibly plunked fair-square in the midst of either ‘insanity’ (the psychiatric model) or ‘the unknowable’ (the metaphysical model) … which is something else entirely. In the context of metaphysical human experience this condition is only achievable after physical death: the Buddhists call it ‘Parinirvana’ and the Hindus call it ‘Mahasamadhi’. (…).

(Emphasis added)

https://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-severementalagitation.htm

This account gives me courage. It is going to be a chore to get this up and going, and there is already that feeling/thought that I am mad to be trying this at all.

However, when I consider the alternatives, …there are none! Been there, done that!

Cheers
Andrew

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Andrew: I have been reading a lot more of the AFT. Essentially, from the start! As I have been interested for so long, there is a lot that I thought I knew. Some things I never really read and I had never dealt with the feelings I would have, caused by the various expectations I had when first encountering Actualism.
There are some insights into various current feelings, specifically being able to put them in categories. Sounds basic, but for example, I had never looked at what boredom is. There is definitely aggression there.
Overall, I can see that I am gathering up some intent. Lots of it has been scattered around, over the years, but without a clear understanding of exactly how to proceed from where I am at.
There has always been a lot of aggression in my way of being. I have been feeling it all day actually. As it is not something that has been triggered by anything in particular, it’s obviously an answer to the question of what it “under the carpet “.

Hi Andrew,

I vaguely remember that “there has always been a lot of aggression in my way of being”. I particularly remember one sentence because it struck me as a summary of a gloomy modus operandi – “I gird myself each morning for battle”. I am so pleased that you are now finding your way out of this life-long paradigm, and are having fun with discovering more about the tools and aims of the actualism method, which you already had success with.

Andrew: I have been gathering up more information from the AFT, going back into all the things I never understood, or had objected to, or only half read.
Currently, reading through the accounts of the time around Peter and yourself becoming free, Richard’s last writing, his experience with being the first and what was causing that mental anguish. That last one has actually, only about 30 mins ago, sparked something in me. Being the first to realise that all the godmen were completely insane! But not just realise, to be as he put it

Richard: In psychiatric terms the neurons were agitated: energised and excited with an excess of dopamine in the post-synaptic receptors, described as being similar to the effect of amphetamines, cocaine or LSD … yet nothing could be done about it with psychiatry’s extensive arsenal of anti-psychotic drugs. Initially I had no alternative but to seek resolution in terms of either ‘the known’ (psychiatry) and/or ‘the unknown’ (mysticism) … and I knew from eleven years experience that no mystic could be of any assistance whatsoever. I was truly on my own. The mental anguish was in determining the validity of uncharted territory – 5,000 years of recorded history and perhaps 50,000 years of oral tradition made no mention of this dimension of human experience – for I was irreversibly plunked fair-square in the midst of either ‘insanity’ (the psychiatric model) or ‘the unknowable’ (the metaphysical model) … which is something else entirely. In the context of metaphysical human experience this condition is only achievable after physical death: the Buddhists call it ‘Parinirvana’ and the Hindus call it ‘Mahasamadhi’. (…). [Emphasis added]. Richard's Reports Regarding 30+ Months Severe Mental Agitation

Andrew: This account gives me courage.

I am curious in what way this account of Richard’s one-off period of mental anguish – while he was working out what this entirely new experience of human consciousness was all about – gives you courage? I say one-off because now that Richard made sense of it and expressed and described it eloquently in millions of words, nobody has to ever go through this experience again.

Courage perhaps in that becoming actually free has become so much easier?

Andrew: It is going to be a chore to get this up and going, and there is already that feeling/ thought that I am mad to be trying this at all.

You already have started “to get this up and going” and you already had success noticing some bad habits and declining them. It takes a lot worse events to be “mad” – but your life will certainly change considerably.

Andrew: However, when I consider the alternatives, …there are none! Been there, done that! (link)

You are absolutely correct – and before the discovery of an actual freedom from the human condition it was impossible to “consider the alternatives” and discard them. That is truly cause for celebration and for enjoying and appreciating being alive (and using the tools Richard gave us when there is some hick-up to this enjoyment and appreciation).

Cheers Vineeto

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Hi Vineeto,

The way is gives me courage is that if he can go through all of that, on his own as far as what was happening to him, and it’s implications, and of course the entire experience itself of being like a “bad trip” 3 times a day!, then surely I can keep making progress this time, as I am not on my own. I have you and this forum, the AFT, and a fresh start each day. I am not having to go through war, or mental breakdowns et al.

I can get “on the front foot” with my experiences, prepared with what I have learnt. Especially over the last 2 months in beginning to think clearly (going back to the initial question, i.e. staying focused on the topic ) and the last few weeks of renewed enthusiasm and successes.

Cheers

Andrew

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Hi Andrew,

It’s amazing reading your recent posts, I keep thinking what happened to the “old Andrew”? :grin:

There is lots of things that are detectable in your writing which indicate something has clearly changed but it just clicked for me now that the main thing is that you have now committed.

And in order to commit ‘you’ had to give up the long standing habit of retreating into the “intellectualiser”.

There is something else I notice too - when you wrote recently that you discovered the silly habit of not using ‘squotes’ because they seemed “an attempt at fitting in” - you pinpointed a key aspect of that identity, that ‘your’ apparent ‘originality’ was based on rebellion, but rebellion even against common sense! :smile:

I remember exploring this around the time of the Rift thread and realising the below :

With regards to originality I also agree with your assessment, if I take the same path as the 100 people in front of me, because it is actually the quickest path, that is simply sensible.
What is not sensible is to take the longer / more difficult path just so that I can fancy myself as someone original, this is like a perversion of what originality is about.
This perverted originality is actually still rooted in authority, as in it has to believe in authority in order to try opposing it in this way. Like the teenager trying to prove their independence by always doing the opposite of what their parents ask, where is the freedom in that?

So ‘you’ abandoned this “perverted originality” by seeing that it was a silly game, and this is now bearing fruit as you are in a solid position to succeed with the actualism method. It’s so cool to see that it is possible to change oneself like that.

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Hi Kuba,

More accurate assessments on your part about ‘me’!

Indeed, today I have been reflecting on many of the things that ‘I’ had used to continue being the ‘me’. There is no blaming though, which was also a continual habit. ‘I’ was a certain way, which is becoming much clearer, even as today has gone along. Letting a lot of the things I read today, which answered old objections, work there way into ‘me’, also realising that i could have just asked the questions a decade ago!

One that really had that feeling of freshness come back was reading this;

Richard; Just because there are no affections whatsoever it does not mean it is not possible to be (mentally) astonished, astounded, surprised, uncertain, baffled, puzzled, perplexed, nonplussed, and so on, on occasion.

Richard's Reports Regarding 30+ Months Severe Mental Agitation.
(Richard, Actual Freedom List, No. 106, 27 December 2005).

I still had an expectation that Actual Freedom was something more like a cosmic mind/intelligence. Not that I ever had that explicit thought, but it was still there. There was a lot that on reading it all again, from the “long awaited announcements “ and reports, that I now see I was fitting it all into a convoluted religio-spiritual devotee mindset. A mystic, if you will😉

Cheers

Andrew

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Vineeto: I am curious in what way this account of Richard’s one-off period of mental anguish – while he was working out what this entirely new experience of human consciousness was all about – gives you courage?

Andrew: The way is gives me courage is that if he can go through all of that, on his own as far as what was happening to him, and its implications, and of course the entire experience itself of being like a “bad trip” 3 times a day!, then surely I can keep making progress this time, as I am not on my own. I have you and this forum, the AFT, and a fresh start each day. I am not having to go through war, or mental breakdowns et al.

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for explaining it to me. I am pleased to read you have been encouraged that you “can keep making progress this time” as you are “not on my own” like Richard was. Besides, there is now a Direct Route where you can avoid the toxic state of enlightenment altogether on your way to an actual freedom.

Andrew: I can get “on the front foot” with my experiences, prepared with what I have learnt. Especially over the last 2 months in beginning to think clearly (going back to the initial question) and the last few weeks of renewed enthusiasm and successes. (link)

I remember that it was also a wonderful and encouraging experience for ‘Vineeto’ to use ‘her’ brain again for what it is intended –

‘VINEETO’: It was great fun for me to de-rust my brain and train it so I could work out my emotions, beliefs and finally the instincts. The brain is the only tool we have to re-wire our brain, as strange as it may sound. (…)
With a switched on brain, TV can become a useful tool to study the Human Condition, not only in me, but in its workings in everybody. Oprah Winfrey is a goldmine of information, and her all-round spirituality, that includes everyone’s superstitions, is quite revealing. You are making your own observations – but for me, I always used them back on me, to check my fears, my superstitions, my hypocrisy. And it helps immensely to remember that they are the Human Condition, in all of us, and not a personal quirk. I don’t find TV to be an idiot box at all. One doesn’t need to switch one’s brain off when watching… quite the contrary, it can be a fascinating source of valuable information for exploring the Human Condition. (Vineeto, No. 6, 6.2.1999)

Andrew to Kuba: One that really had that feeling of freshness come back was reading this;

Richard: Just because there are no affections whatsoever it does not mean it is not possible to be (mentally) astonished, astounded, surprised, uncertain, baffled, puzzled, perplexed, nonplussed, and so on, on occasion. (Richard, AF List, No. 106, 27 Dec 2005).

Andrew to Kuba: I still had an expectation that Actual Freedom was something more like a cosmic mind/ intelligence. Not that I ever had that explicit thought, but it was still there. There was a lot that on reading it all again, from the “long awaited announcements” and reports, that I now see I was fitting it all into a convoluted religio-spiritual devotee mindset. A mystic, if you will. (link)

Yes, this is quite understandable – after all, Richard often said that an actual freedom is “unbelievable, unimaginable, inconceivable and incomprehensible” . Fortunately he has left us many detailed descriptions of how he experienced life in the actual world. One of the most astounding experiences for me is that it is always now, that this moment is ever-fresh –

Richard: And as the slowly-setting sun streams golden from the west another world entirely hoves into view.
Pristine and pure, ever-fresh and new, peerless perfection permeates all and sundry, without exception, and he knows with a certainty that his life is never going to be the same ever again. (Richard, List D, No. 33, 13 Jan 2013)

He was such a master of words as well.

Here are some more, for your delectation and apprehension so that your previous conception/ mindset can definitely be replaced now with a more factual understanding.

Richard: There is nothing except the series of sensations which happen … not happening to an ‘I’ or a ‘me’ but just happening … moment by moment … one after another. To live life as these sensations, as distinct from having them, engenders the most astonishing sense of freedom and magic. Consequently, I am living in peace and tranquillity; a meaningful peace and tranquillity. Life is intrinsically purposeful, the reason for existence lies openly all around. Being this very air I live in, I am constantly aware of it as I breathe it in and out; I see it, I hear it, I taste it, I smell it, I touch it, all of the time. It never goes away – nor has it ever been away – it was just that ‘I’ and/or ‘me’ was standing in the way of the meaning of life being apparent. (Richard, AF List, No. 4, 14 Jan 1999).

Richard: No boredom or fear whatsoever. This moment has never happened before and never will happen again … thus life is always ever-fresh, novel, original, unique, peerless, matchless and impeccable. (…)
If there is a situation that calls for a considered response there is an active thinking of possibilities and probabilities – an exploring of feasible courses of action – based upon past experience and knowledge. Then the issue is ‘banished’ to the back of the skull where it all gets sorted out of its own accord. Sometimes the outcome is very surprising. For the most of the day there is either few or no thoughts running at all … none whatsoever. If thought is needed for a particular situation, it swings smoothly into action and effortlessly does its thing. All the while, there is this apperceptive awareness of being here … of being alive in the infinitude of this universe. No words occur … it is a wordless appreciation of being able to be here, now. Doing something – and that includes thinking – is a bonus of pleasure and delight on top of this on-going ambrosial experience of being alive and awake and here … now. Consequently, my life is always blithe and carefree, even if I am doing nothing. (Richard, AF List, No. 7, 27 Jan 1999).

Richard: The value of it is an individual peace-on-earth for No. 4. When there are six billion outbreaks of individual peace-on-earth there will be global peace-on-earth. Thus all the wars and rapes and murders and tortures and domestic violence and child abuse and sadness and loneliness and grief and depression and suicide will be at an end. Now that is value, eh?
Yet there is more … you will have solved the ‘mystery of life’ and be living the actual. You will be the universe’s experience of itself as a sensate and reflective human being. You will be living the infinitude of the universe’s infinite space and eternal time – here and now – instead of waiting for some specious immortality after physical death.
You will be living – as I do – in the fairy-tale-like actual world with its quality of magical perfection and purity. Everything and everyone has a lustre, a brilliance, a vividness, an intensity and a marvellous, wondrous vitality that makes everything alive and sparkling … even the very earth beneath one’s feet. The rocks, the concrete buildings, a piece of paper … literally everything is as if it were alive. A rock is not, of course, alive as humans are, or as animals are, or as trees are. This ‘aliveness’ is the very actuality of all existence … the actualness of everything and everyone.
We do not live in an inert universe … but one cannot experience this whilst clinging to immortality. (Richard, List B, No. 4a, 9 Dec 1998).

Richard: One cannot think or feel one’s way into this magical world – the world as-it-is in actuality – but one does need an absolute conviction that such a world exists. This conviction comes out of the pure consciousness experience … and these peak experiences are momentary glimpses into the actual, the world of pristine perfection. To reiterate: in the PCE, it is immediately seen that ‘I’ do not actually exist. (…) (Richard, AF List, Alana, 20 Aug 1999).

Alan: And ‘I’ do not want to give up the adventure, so some persuasion, or altruism?, is necessary.
Richard: Ahh … after ‘the adventure’ is over something far, far better takes its place.
Alan: What?
Richard: First, there is the not-so-little matter of seducing one’s fellow human being into being happy and harmless – when it does not really matter whether anyone else becomes free of the human condition or not – and in this there is a thrill that is not of fear (because of a familiarity that knows naught of sorrow and malice). But it is the on-going experiencing of the purity of the perfection of the infinitude of this wondrous universe – an experiencing that defies all the odds – which is truly magical. Being intimately here at this place in infinite space, right now at this moment in eternal time, is such an adventure in itself that it makes what ‘I’ did all those years ago pale into insignificance. There is so much more to life than the process of becoming free … even though that is the journey of a lifetime in itself. Let alone doing something so commonplace as that which normally constitutes ‘an adventure’, for those antics amount to nothing but silly risk-taking for the sake of unconvincing adrenaline rush.
What I am saying is that whatever I do is an amazing escapade. (Mailing List 'AF' Respondent Alan human being into being happy).

You’ll find more descriptions in Richard’s Selected Correspondence on Actual Freedom2 and his Selected Writing on Actual Freedom. Also Frequent Questions No. 26 might give you some illuminating answers.

Cheers Vineeto

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Thanks Vineeto!

I was looking forward to reporting a successful day. I could feel the desire to feel good welling up and somewhat running the show all day. It was very pleasant and I enjoyed the momentum of it. It lasted solidly until early afternoon, when I couldn’t deal with a particular habit that a co-worker has. It’s the same habit my mother has, and I haven’t quite seen how to deal with it yet.

The habit is incessantly talking to me about her life, with intricate details about people I often do not know (especially in the case of the female coworker) at great length, when it is plainly obvious that I have no interest, and in the case at work, have work to do. It feels like a deliberate assault of common decency.

I don’t have a lot of tolerance for endless stories about things which have no relevance to me.

I am asking myself now, and have been for hours what specifically I can do to stop this “getting under my skin”. It was an otherwise enjoyable day. I felt good consistently until early to mid afternoon, and I noticed my mood getting more “grainy “ with irritation eroding the mood.

At the moment, I can’t shake the irritation, so I know something quite powerful can happen to open up greater capacity for sustained feeling good. I have confidence that an answer to this will come.

It is obvious enough it is rooted in my experience with my mother, but perhaps that is simply the most obvious connection, and it is a more general form of female aggression. It’s certainly rude. Talking non-stop “at” someone who has not asked, is showing no interest, has no reason to be interested, and has obviously things they are either already doing, or want to do.

Remembering back, in an attempt to get context for this, it has made a slight difference if the female is attractive, but the display of this habit quickly degrades that attraction.

Men will also sometimes do this. Not to the same degree, but occasionally I will sense the same sort of aggression. Indeed, I know that I have done it to others.

All sorts of ideas are swirling around, but as there is only one person I can change, finding out what I can actively do in these situations.

It’s not that someone is shouting at me, but the irritation is something similar.

Haha, I just realised that it’s not just ‘me’ in the world! I have been so focused in the last few days on ‘myself’ that the fact that such a thing happened is like that famous New York line from the movies when someone crosses the street in front of cars, “Can’t you see I’m walking here!”

“Can’t you see I am feeling good? !! Leave me alone!”

Quite obviously, stopping whatever I am doing to listen to an endless story cannot be the answer. In the case of this ‘woman’ even turning back to my computer, and continuing to work has no effect.

The other very obvious thing is that it’s entirely one sided. It’s not a conversation. It’s a monologue, which if a single question is asked, will continue unabated.

It certainly not personal. I watch this behaviour happen to others in the office. And with my own mother. It is irrelevant if the other has interest, or is going somewhere, or in the middle of some task, it just starts and won’t stop.

I am aware this is rant-like. Justifying my annoyance. However, it’s my annoyance I want to rid myself of. Yet, the behaviour is rude, obnoxious, and in the case of the workplace, not what I am employed to do.

However, it’s very much a bind. Telling someone that I don’t have time for the story will be expressing the annoyance. Listening to the story only amplifies the annoyance.

It like the other person is daring my to say the obvious “you are not interesting to me, please stop talking to me”

If I was paid to listen, I would of course listen. I am paid to do my work.

With my mother, I think it is that it is all one way. She will dismiss anything of interest to me.

Hmm. It’s good to write all this out. Because for the first time, I can see this is common behaviour. In general, people are doing this to each other. Talking “at” them, polluting the air with endless trivial details of their pointless rehashing of exactly the same life everyone else is already living.

It seems to me that these people would spend all day talking about yesterday.

I mean, I am trying to save the world here lady! :joy:

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I got it!

I am angry at myself! The impotence to change others! The very fact that ‘I’ am trying to be ‘polite’.

It seems to me that I have some belief here to look at. I know I have also done this to others too. It is an aggressive behaviour. Granted it’s on the “shallow end of the pool “ in terms of behaviour, but it is still an expression of aggression. Done with smiles, and often a self-indulgent laugh, but it is aggression.

This leads back into my own ‘relationship’ with ‘myself’. I don’t talk with myself with humour. ‘I’ take everything personally. Obviously, I have been doing better lately, but that is lately. The underlying belief in my own failure and impotence is strong. Easily “poked with a stick “ when shown that I can be irritated so easily.

A meme a saw recently sums it up with my mother. It went “How come my mother can push my buttons so easily? Why? Because she installed them! That’s why!”

There is more in ‘here’ though. When a woman triggers me in this way, there is something about the particular woman too. This one is a book-keeper. My mother was the financially responsible one who preserved the family in face of bankruptcy. A previous girlfriend was also a bookkeeper, same thing there.

It seems to be more than just the “talking at” me behaviour. It seems intensified when there is finance involved. I will get somehow irked by men going on and on, but not like this. This is different to the that.

Ok, so it’s rich pickings for me. It doesn’t look like I will need Oprah yet Vineeto, life is giving me plenty to consider!

:sweat_smile:

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Ok. More honesty needed.

Last October, on the expiry of my rental lease, I took my mother up on an offer to move into her house so I could save money for a deposit.

This has been a great financial move obviously. And for the record, I have been suitably ‘humbled’ by the way my life has turned out financially. My decades of mismanagement have “come home to roost”.

I have been a model lodger. Fixing the house, neat, pleasant, and friendly.

However, it is obviously a blow to my pride to be living with my mother at 49. There is no way around it in normal terms of social expectations, I am not “living the dream”.

Being a public forum, it would be rude to describe my mother in any specific detail, as to anything more than my reaction to her. She is well loved by her grandchildren and friends, neighbours and church group. For the record, she has been through a lot in life. Losing her husband to cancer 20 years ago, her second born son to suicide not long before that, and her youngest son, in the very house I am in now to an overdose. I was also staying here then in 2017, and it was me who pulled the door off the toilet and tried to revive him. Context is important. I am certainly not dealing with a mother who in anyway seeks to harm me. She has in fact, been the reason I have survived.

So, there is shame and guilt when I talk above about the annoyance I feel when she will talk at length like the woman today at work. I am not strictly at her mercy, I was financially able to continue renting even in a very expensive market.

In every day terms, I am very fortunate to be able to stay here and build up some savings.

That context is there, so if anyone has read this far, they aren’t in the dark about the facts of my situation.

It would hardly be sincere to be posting about what seems to be a confluence of causes to today’s afternoon drama, without the some of big picture.

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No, it’s the impotence to change myself in that moment. The power that she had over me, and there was nothing I felt I could do but resist being equally rude back.

Underneath, it is this;

The bookkeeper is currently obliged to take money from my wages to pay a debt the government determined I owe in child support. That also came up today. The government rang her not long before she was talking at length at me.

The fact I would have to fight the government (again) knowing that last time, nearly 10 years ago (while living in this house) my perfectly organised evidence that I didn’t owe anything was rejected (because the law is that all claims are arbitrarily rejected when there is no written agreement, despite my ex verbally telling them of the agreement).

So, yeah. Confluence of triggers.

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Fearing things being taken from me.

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Andrew: I was looking forward to reporting a successful day. I could feel the desire to feel good welling up and somewhat running the show all day. It was very pleasant and I enjoyed the momentum of it. It lasted solidly until early afternoon, when I couldn’t deal with a particular habit that a co-worker has. It’s the same habit my mother has, and I haven’t quite seen how to deal with it yet.
The habit is incessantly talking to me about her life, with intricate details about people I often do not know (especially in the case of the female coworker) at great length, when it is plainly obvious that I have no interest, and in the case at work, have work to do. It feels like a deliberate assault of common decency.
I don’t have a lot of tolerance for endless stories about things which have no relevance to me. (…)

Haha, I just realised that it’s not just ‘me’ in the world! I have been so focused in the last few days on ‘myself’ that the fact that such a thing happened is like that famous New York line from the movies when someone crosses the street in front of cars, “Can’t you see I’m walking here!”
“Can’t you see I am feeling good? !! Leave me alone!” (link)

Hi Andrew,

I cut out a big chunk of the 794 words of whinging as it is not nice to any reader to be subjected to such length of negative feelings/ vibes even once, let along twice.

You discovered you are irritated, i.e. angry, about a certain behaviour of a co-worker, and you give the reason that it was something your mother did frequently. Additionally, you were fighting this feeling and thus increasing its strength and prolonging its occurrence.

  1. The first thing is to get back to feeling good. When in the grip of strong feelings it is obvious that you cannot think straight.

  2. You do this by declining to object to the feeling itself, this feeling about objecting to/resenting the situation you are in. This way the feeling will automatically decrease in strength because you are no longer feeding the negative energy by objecting to it. Then it’s easier to get back to feeling good.

  3. When you are ready to have a closer look, the next thing is to check if this irritating behaviour is something ‘I’ do myself – at least this is what worked for feeling being ‘Vineeto’. Going by your post, this could well be a possibility.

  4. To admit that this is the case you obviously need to be friends with yourself enough to be genuinely interested in how you tick without condemning yourself for what you uncover.

  5. As there is very possibly pride and self-righteousness involved (“it’s all their fault, I am in the right here”) as well as territorial beliefs and feelings (as in “how dare they intrude in my space”), it might take some time to unravel.

  6. When you discover that you know this kind of behaviour quite well from your own experience, not just on the receiving end but especially the ‘presenting it’ aspect as well, then it will be much easier to emotionally accept it not only in yourself (because you are committed to no longer indulge such feelings in future but also when other people do it to you.

And when you are not feeling antagonistic as in “leave me alone” but genuinely recognize them as a fellow human beings (endowed with the same instinctual passions and feelings as you are), then there is most likely the possibility for an amicable, or at least straightforwardly sincere, resolution.

For instance, just like yourself, almost every feeling being wants to be acknowledged, respected and understood by their co-habitants in the real world (i.e. link), and some will talk at you until they feel they have been heard. The more you understand yourself, the better you will understand the human condition, which gives you more options to interact in an enjoyable manner. As you said further up in your post – “Haha, I just realised that it’s not just ‘me’ in the world!”

It’s a good realisation.

Cheers Vineeto

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I just saw I posted in Jesus Carlos’ journal instead of mine.