Ah yes but it’s easier to scapegoat ‘my’ lack of priorities onto that ‘messiah’ identity and then fight ‘him’ instead 
That way ‘I’ can continue being a fraud and of course the accountability is shifted just ‘over there’.
What you wrote rings very true, I am not sure how these priorities will shift just yet but I can see that unless they do I am stuck “rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic”.
A few days back while reading Vineeto mentioning about fraud in another post, I was trying to uncover what is this fraud about ? For example if someone were to apply for a job without the necessary skills and claiming to have those skills, that would be a fraud about their skillset.
I’m not able to understand why is the identity a fraud…Is it because it doesn’t exist while only the actual body exists…so the fraud is about it’s existence ?
Cheers
Shashank
This is something that is quite easy to observe both in ‘yourself’ and in ‘humanity’ at large. To notice the psychological/psychic gymnastics that ‘I’ and ‘humanity’ get up to as part of ‘our’ MO.
For me it was always easier to observe all around, as in if you take a close look at the real world, the systems in place, the kind of behaviour that passes as normal, the beliefs touted as truths etc it very quickly becomes apparent that ‘humanity’ is a fraud. In the sense that upon investigation it is revealed to be nothing at all like what it presents itself to be. What it is, is a completely rotten to the core creation, what it presents itself to be is ‘acting for the benefit of all’.
Perhaps seeing ‘oneself’ to be equally fraudulent is a little more difficult as it would entail immediate action, of ending ‘oneself’. That slight dissociation of ‘me’ vs ‘humanity’ can keep ‘me’ alive (as I have demonstrated in my above posts). Keeping ‘humanity’ as just slightly separate to ‘me’ allows ‘me’ to continue blaming ‘humanity’ whilst remaining a fraud ‘myself’. ‘I’ can then investigate ‘humanity’ as if it’s something different to ‘me’ and that in itself shows how fraudulent ‘I’ am! 
Haha yes this kind of trickery I’ve often found and its good to catch it - Its others not me !
Yes, this makes sense…so its more of a Social-Instinctual thing…I was thinking if there is a core fraud at the level of the instinctual being itself.
Yes I suspect it is fraudulence all the way through haha, in that ‘I’ don’t actually exist in the first place. But how useful this is for an entity who needs to allow their own extinction I am not sure.
Shashank: A few days back while reading Vineeto mentioning about fraud in another post, I was trying to uncover what is this fraud about? For example if someone were to apply for a job without the necessary skills and claiming to have those skills, that would be a fraud about their skillset.
I’m not able to understand why is the identity a fraud…Is it because it doesn’t exist while only the actual body exists…so the fraud is about it’s existence ?
Hi Shashank,
You know from your own experience that there is no identity to be found when you are having a PCE. ‘You’ are not actual, but nevertheless very real, backed up by strong passions and deep feelings. This is not just ‘a belief’ that you can abandon because it seems like a good idea. This instinctual-emotional identity is your whole ‘being’ – and yet from the actual perspective, the one you have during a PCE, it is clearly not there at all.
Feeling being ‘Vineeto’ experienced this contradiction very strongly after several years of actualism and expressed this by naming this ‘sometimes-there-sometimes-not-there’ ‘being’ a fraud, an imposter – just to make the point clear that ‘it’, ‘me’ is not actual and deserves no support from my side (whenever sincere intent/pure intent are operating and guiding ‘her’ thoughts and actions). This clear labelling had an impact on the feeling-being because eventually feeling-being ‘Vineeto’ felt more and more that ‘she’ was indeed redundant, in fact rotten, and it was a shame and somewhat unbelievable ‘she’ was still holding onto ‘her’ existence. And this in turn brought to the surface the originally-dormant yearning for oblivion in the feeling-being itself – which all supported the aim of becoming actually free as soon as possible.
Shashank: Haha yes this kind of trickery I’ve often found and it’s good to catch it – It’s others not me !
Kub933: What it is, is a completely rotten to the core creation, what it presents itself to be is ‘acting for the benefit of all’.
Yes, this makes sense…so it’s more of a Social-Instinctual thing…I was thinking if there is a core fraud at the level of the instinctual being itself.
“This kind of trickery” is certainly good to pay attention to and catch – it is just one of the whole array of tools ‘I’ have to fervently defend ‘my’ existence. Once you done it a few times, you can see the game, the fun sport in it, to expose each trick for what it is – ‘me’ defending the indefensible – and you, when intelligence and awareness are operating, getting the upper hand and consequently be more happy and more considerate and more enjoying life.
Remember though, it’s not “more of a Social-Instinctual thing” – phrasing/seeing it thisaway is a trick of dissociation in action – it’s you, the instinctually driven and socially conditioned identity you are referring to, and yes, this is “a core fraud” because not a skerrick of ‘you’ does exist in actuality.
Richard compared ‘being’ to a whirlpool of air/water –
“In that crystal-clear fully-lucid hypnopompic state ‘I’ was able to penetrate deeply into ‘myself’ at the core of ‘my’ being (which is ‘being’ itself) – or, rather, the penetration took place via ‘my’ full acquiescence – and there, in the centre of all the feelings swirling around, the essence of who ‘I’ am lay gorgeously exposed … not all that unlike a beautiful rosy pearl, nestled coyly amidst the delicate fleshy tissue of its host, in its shimmering nacreous shell.
Except that the essence of who ‘I’ am was a void (and not a ‘thing’ like a pearl is) so the analogy of the void at the centre of whirlpool of water – which is the whirling water in motion – is more apt (albeit not conveying the ethereal radiant beauty of the rosy pearl analogy).
Or, in other words, the essence of who ‘I’ am is akin to the calm, still centre of a swirling cyclone/ hurricane/ typhoon.
The swirling air/whirling water is, of course, all the feelings – all of the emotions/ passions – which ‘I’ am comprised of (as in ‘I’ am ‘my’ feelings and ‘my’ feelings are ‘me’).” (List D, 11a)
Cheers Vineeto
Vineeto: It looks to me that the only thing you need to realize, and then actualize, is to get your priorities right and everything will fall into place.
Kuba: Ah yes but it’s easier to scapegoat ‘my’ lack of priorities onto that ‘messiah’ identity and then fight ‘him’ instead That way ‘I’ can continue being a fraud and of course the accountability is shifted just ‘over there’.
What you wrote rings very true, I am not sure how these priorities will shift just yet but I can see that unless they do I am stuck “rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic”. (link)
Just to inserts some facts to your latest presented problem, I looked up “archetype of the ‘messiah” and here are a few descriptions –
• What is the Messiah complex disorder? – a mental state in which a person believes they are a messiah or prophet and will save or redeem people in a religious endeavour. The term can also refer to a state of mind in which an individual believes that they are responsible for saving others.
• What are the roles of the Messiah? – to unite people all over the world regardless of race, culture or religion.
• What trauma causes the savior complex? – They may be children who have experienced various traumas, abandonment.
• What is messianic Behaviour? – the desire and compulsion to redeem or save others or the world
• What is an example of a messianic archetype? – Messianic Archetype include All-Loving Hero, the Dark Messiah (the extreme Anti-Hero version), The Antichrist, the False Prophet (the lying scammer version), and the Anti-Anti-Christ. (source: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MessianicArchetype) {sic! Media-Tropes from comic books & films}
Can you sincerely say that any of the above answers applies to you? Are you perhaps getting a bit desperate to invent a problem for the pleasure of solving it? When I saw you write about the ‘Messianic Archetype’ I thought there were some learned Neo-Jungian psychologists expanding the field, but it’s not even seriously discussed in academia yet and still you try it on like a party costume 
. Perhaps gullibility is a more worthwhile topic of observation. Btw, did you know that the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?
Recently you said – “All this talk about progressing into full actual freedom is making it seem to me like I am still stuck playing a kids game.” (link) Will you be able to let priorities shift now perhaps?
Kuba: Perhaps seeing ‘oneself’ to be equally fraudulent is a little more difficult as it would entail immediate action, of ending ‘oneself’. That slight dissociation of ‘me’ vs ‘humanity’ can keep ‘me’ alive (as I have demonstrated in my above posts). Keeping ‘humanity’ as just slightly separate to ‘me’ allows ‘me’ to continue blaming ‘humanity’ whilst remaining a fraud ‘myself’. ‘I’ can then investigate ‘humanity’ as if it’s something different to ‘me’ and that in itself shows how fraudulent ‘I’ am! (link)
Well spotted.
Shashank: I was thinking if there is a core fraud at the level of the instinctual being itself.
Kuba: Yes I suspect it is fraudulence all the way through haha, in that ‘I’ don’t actually exist in the first place. But how useful this is for an entity who needs to allow their own extinction I am not sure. (link)
The reason why I drew attention to this fact of fraudulence recently is because this was a major factor for ‘Vineeto’ to agree, on a deep instinctual/feeling level, to ‘her’ increasingly inevitable demise.
The motivation for ‘self’-immolation needs to encompass all of ‘you’ at a deep level of ‘being’ for allowing it to happen, and when ‘I’ recognize and acknowledge that deep down ‘I’ experience ‘my’ job of ‘self’-preservation as a constant burden, and with no genuinely advantageous point to boot for continuing to carry that burden, then you, who wants to be free to be what you are have won a major ally.
Cheers Vineeto
Thanks Vineeto…really appreciate all of your clarifications.
Hi Shashank,
You are very welcome and it is a delight to write here on this forum with engaged actualists.
Cheers Vineeto
I found that feeling like a fraud because I’m not actually free but I’m obsessed with actual freedom, in addition with a lingering false humility, caused a pattern of ‘control’ which sought to ‘shut down’ anything that resembled a ‘messiah complex’ in an attempt to be authentic and secretly humble so as not to draw attention to myself.
I think being remorseful or agitated over a messiah complex is false humility. Maybe you should just let yourself rip @Kub933. Go get some converts.
Yes although I would say it is not “false humility” but rather humility itself! It being just another tool that ‘I’ as an identity can use to remain in existence.
Thank you @Vineeto, I sincerely appreciate your reply and I have been giggling to myself in slight embarrassment this morning. Of course it is not that you embarrassed me but it is the facts that did, seeing what I have been doing did it haha.
Yes this is a good way to put it and in itself this shows where my priorities have been. To be content busying myself with “finding problems for the pleasure of solving them” whilst ‘I’ remain rotten.
I see what I have been doing now, there was this slight distance/dissociation between ‘me’ and ‘the problem’. ‘I’ can remain in existence by finding the next problem, always just slightly distanced from ‘me’, the more fancy the problem the longer ‘I’ can look for a solution and kid ‘myself’ that something productive is being done.
Whereas the below would be actually doing something :
The funny (but perverse) thing is that I have been doing the opposite! I have been trying to prove how damn difficult it is, thus not only blocking myself but others into the bargain. Indeed those priorities are all over the place.
I remember a correspondence on the AFT (which I cannot find now) where the correspondent mentions that Richard appears to be truly an exceptional person. Richard responds by saying that if the correspondent is being sincere in his observation then good, because they must dare to be an exceptional person themselves.
Time to raise the bar!
good point
Kuba: Thank you Vineeto, I sincerely appreciate your reply and I have been giggling to myself in slight embarrassment this morning. Of course it is not that you embarrassed me but it is the facts that did, seeing what I have been doing did it haha.
Hi Kuba,
It’s a delight to read about your reaction of amusement at your own tricks. There is so much which is amusing about the human condition when seen from a wider angle.
Rather than feeling embarrassed you can pat yourself on the back for having discarded this latest ‘problem’ so quickly. The feeling of embarrassment, when stripped of its socially inherent judgement of wrong or bad, can easily segue into feeling naïve (unsophisticated, ingenuous), which is where you can like yourself and others and don’t mind at all seen to be a fool in the eyes of others. “To be naïveté itself (i.e., naïveté embodied as ‘me’), which is to be the closest one can to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’”. (A Rather Quaint Clay-Pit Tale). Make sure you all access the tool-tips as well.
Vineeto: Are you perhaps getting a bit desperate to invent a problem for the pleasure of solving it?
Kuba: Yes this is a good way to put it and in itself this shows where my priorities have been. To be content busying myself with “finding problems for the pleasure of solving them” whilst ‘I’ remain rotten.
I see what I have been doing now, there was this slight distance/dissociation between ‘me’ and ‘the problem’. ‘I’ can remain in existence by finding the next problem, always just slightly distanced from ‘me’, the more fancy the problem the longer ‘I’ can look for a solution and kid ‘myself’ that something productive is being done.
Ha, the identity is very apt in finding problems – it’s the very raison d’être at this point of keeping ‘you’ in existence. What you can do, remembering your priorities, is to diminish the power of believing until you eventually lose the ability to believe altogether.
Kuba: Whereas the below would be actually doing something :
Vineeto: You can “be original and […] authentic” and still be “‘doing good for others’” and “‘seeking excellence to uplift others’” – in fact much, much more efficiently – by genuinely caring, not for your own validation but for everyone’s actual benefit. Caring so much that you dare to show the way, not only to set everyone free from your own insalubrious identity (every identity is insalubrious) but also lead by example how easy it is to walk out of the human condition and to leave ‘yourself’ behind. And when you are without ‘self’ no one is below you and no one is above you either.
Now wouldn’t that be a genuine and thoroughly beneficent archetype, hey?
The funny (but perverse) thing is that I have been doing the opposite! I have been trying to prove how damn difficult it is, thus not only blocking myself but others into the bargain. Indeed those priorities are all over the place.
Yep, the easier becoming free looks when you come to your senses the more ‘you’ have to work hard to prove the opposite. Though it’s easy to correct course at any time you notice.
Kuba: I remember a correspondence on the AFT (which I cannot find now) where the correspondent mentions that Richard appears to be truly an exceptional person. Richard responds by saying that if the correspondent is being sincere in his observation then good, because they must dare to be an exceptional person themselves.
Time to raise the bar!
I couldn’t find that quote either with the word “exceptional” but I found this, which might be what you had in mind –
RESPONDENT: You sound like a remarkable man and I would like to ask a question. […]
RICHARD: Where you say ‘you sound like a remarkable man’ , if you mean it sincerely I would like to congratulate you for your perspicacity, because I must emphasise that it is vital that you aspire to being a remarkable person yourself … or else you will not succeed in ridding yourself of your sense of identity. This is very important, because people can put themselves down only too easily as being not good enough, not intelligent enough or not capable enough. I am not gifted or special … I was born of ordinary parents, was sent to an ordinary state school – receiving an average education until I was fifteen years of age – took an ordinary job and worked for a living. I eventually got married and had four children and bought a house and … in short, I was relatively normal and did all the expected things. Thus did I live my life for thirty two years according to the ‘tried and true’ methods as laid down by the countless millions of other humans that had lived before me. I tried my best to make their system work to produce the optimum result … but to no avail. Only then did I make the first and most important movement of my own volition … I discarded the ‘tried and true’ as being the ‘tried and failed’. (I did say ‘I was relatively normal’ because one thing, and one thing alone, stood out that distinguished me from whomsoever else I met: I wanted to know – as an actuality – just what it was to be a human being here on this planet, as this body, in this life-time.) [emphasis added]. (List A, No. 26)
Enjoy
Cheers Vineeto
@Vineeto wrote
The very energy of all your feelings which arise can be used as a driving force towards your ultimate goal. None need to be hidden or pushed away, they all now provide energy for moving towards your final destiny. And every time there is more joyous appreciation as a result, and increasing confidence, that your demise is going to happen.
This is what I have been doing and this is what has been happening. It is an interesting territory, as Geoffrey mentioned in a zoom chat, ‘balls of steel’ are needed to proceed at this point
There is certainly a building courage, to own and to ‘be’ those feelings, those utterly rotten feelings which are ‘me’. But furthermore to see that there is no redemption for ‘me’, that ‘I’ am doomed, in the sense that ‘I’ will never be fixed, and to proceed exactly in that direction.
Yet each time this courage is rewarded… Initially it seems that ‘being’ those forever rotten feelings would lead to inescapable despair, this is like looking in the 1 direction which ‘I’ have refused to look ‘my’ whole life. The energy of those rotten feelings is so powerful, scary to touch. And yet it is that very energy which can turn into the desire for oblivion and a movement towards ‘my’ destiny.
If ‘I’ dare to look in that one (seemingly) inescapable direction, ‘I’ can see that there is a way out, there is an escape hatch, which is the ending of ‘me’. What a fascinating place and indeed what an adventure, I am reminded of Richard writing that as weird as it may seem at first, the thing which ‘I’ am afraid of the most is what ‘I’ desire the most.
So indeed courage is needed to meet ‘my’ destiny, ‘I’ am rotten to the very core and yet ‘I’ am courageous enough to proceed. The reward each time ‘I’ inch closer is that experience of release and of the sweetness and tenderness which exists at the final destination.
Proceeding in this way yesterday I realised that there is ‘no-one’ at all preventing ‘me’ from allowing self immolation. In the same way that another identity cannot do it for ‘me’, they are not blocking ‘me’ either, so any well fabricated excuse is just that, ‘I’ have simply believed all of ‘my’ life that ‘I’ was trapped by ‘them’.
So it is entirely in ‘my’ hands now… I can see that it is possible and I no longer believe it to be some complicated task, requiring a sophisticated approach.
What is required now is something like total sincerity, the slightest dissociation and ‘I’ will remain in some aspect and therefore ‘I’ will remain in ‘my’ totality. So this is indeed committing with the entirety of ‘my’ being. Proceeding in this way is like surfing on the very edge of where dread and despair continually turn into thrill as ‘I’ proceed to what ‘I’ am afraid of the most / what ‘I’ desire the most.
Hi Kuba,
Your whole message is music to my ears, ad expressed you eloquently too!
I was wondering what the female equivalent is to “balls of steel”?
Kuba: There is certainly a building courage, to own and to ‘be’ those feelings, those utterly rotten feelings which are ‘me’. But furthermore to see that there is no redemption for ‘me’, that ‘I’ am doomed, in the sense that ‘I’ will never be fixed, and to proceed exactly in that direction.
I think the most trenchant insight in the whole message is “‘I’ will never be fixed” – you are certainly hurtling towards your destiny knowing this.
Kuba: Proceeding in this way is like surfing on the very edge of where dread and despair continually turn into thrill as ‘I’ proceed to what ‘I’ am afraid of the most / what ‘I’ desire the most.
Just brilliant.
Cheers Vineeto
Hehe yes! I saw it too. There is a way out — a way to actually get what I want. A total release from having to have any responsibilities or be a burden anymore — and all without negatively impacting the people around me and the things that need doing. A win, win, win
ovaries of steel? 
titanium tiddies