Kub933's Journal

It’s starting to make sense what self-immolation is all about, the ‘how to’ of it…
It never made much sense to me in the past, that ‘I’ would have to do it for others and yet it is what ‘I’ secretly want, it seemed like some weird puzzle.

I can see now that self-immolation is very much about making use of the instincts in order to end the instincts, but how?

I can see that oblivion is something which ‘I’ secretly desire, and yet ‘I’ have a fundamental limitation here, because ‘I’ am programmed to survive at all cost. So ‘my’ very nature prevents ‘me’ doing that which ‘I’ secretly desire.

However there is like an ‘override button’ there is a way around this seeming impossibility. It is altruism, another aspect of ‘my’ programming.

So ‘I’ can override ‘my’ very survival instinct (that fundamental limitation) by activating altruism (doing it for this body that body and everybody) AND the cool thing is that ultimately ‘I’ get what ‘I’ secretly wanted all along too, ‘I’ get ‘my’ sweet oblivion.

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Vineeto: Only when I cared enough to give all of ‘me’ to another person, to give them what they want most, was I then ready to give it to the one I cared for most, the one I was closest to, and then I was able to leave all remnant concerns and inhibitions of my identity behind.

Kuba: I have had a lot of fun contemplating this one, it dawned on me yesterday that the same thing applies in reverse, that I cannot genuinely want a freedom for another which I do not dare to grant myself.
But investigating this further I realise this is exactly the normal order of operations within ‘humanity’. Such as urging the other to “not worry about X as you are perfect as you are” and yet being devoured by insecurity oneself. How could I sincerely urge the other to live that which I do not dare to live myself? Surely then I do not know what I speak of.
So this kind of operation is a ploy, ‘I’ do not dare to proceed and instead settle for dishing out platitudes, then vicariously receiving some good feelings through urging the other to live that which ‘I’ cannot live myself.
The funny thing is that as always everything is back to front within ‘humanity’, because those who operate exactly in this way are seen as good and selfless… “Look how little they think of themselves and yet they urge all others to love themselves!” Yet the only fitting words I can pick for such a persona is a fraud and a hypocrite, and ‘they’ know this deep down hence the need to remain humble.
[…]. So in the end whichever side I look from it is the same thing, and the outcome can only be action. [link]

Hi @Kuba,
What a brilliant description how it all hangs together and it exposes both compassion and ‘doing good’ for the ineffective and often harmful values they are.
I especially like your observation that “everything is back to front within ‘humanity’” and the green ‘extinction rebellion’ or the proponents for committing suicide who themselves have to go on living in order to spread the word are two of the more extreme examples. But what you describe is apparent in every aspect of the highly praised so-called selfless and charitable display, only differing in the various localized and ephemeral morals and ethics of ‘virtuous’ behaviour.
Once one can see through this charade (and I am not denying genuine kindness and practical help within the human condition) then one knows with certainty that anything ‘I’ can do, including helping others to become actually free, can only go as far as ‘I’ have done it myself.
‘Vineeto’ was very aware of this fact, and more painfully so as the years went on, which in turn increased ‘her’ sincere intent to stop prevaricating, until the day ‘she’ could put it off no longer. As you say - “So in the end whichever side I look from it is the same thing, and the outcome can only be action.”

Kuba: […] I can see now that self-immolation is very much about making use of the instincts in order to end the instincts, but how?
I can see that oblivion is something which ‘I’ secretly desire, and yet ‘I’ have a fundamental limitation here, because ‘I’ am programmed to survive at all cost. So ‘my’ very nature prevents ‘me’ doing that which ‘I’ secretly desire.
However there is like an ‘override button’ there is a way around this seeming impossibility. It is altruism, another aspect of ‘my’ programming. [emphasis added]. [link]

Exactly, and (biological) altruism is the stronger of aspect of the two, simply because in an evolutionary sense the survival of the species overrides the survival of the individual. And an actual freedom from malice and sorrow is very clearly the next evolutionary step, not only for the survival of the species but more so for the ultimate prospering of the human race. [link].

Cheers Vineeto

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Some notes on how things are going lately, seeing that oblivion is what ‘I’ secretly desire has shifted ‘my’ focus towards practically aiming for self-immolation. It was interesting the other day admitting to ‘myself’ that ‘I’ want to commit ‘self suicide’. I found it interesting to notice that deep down all of ‘humanity’ wants the same thing. If ‘I’ am ‘humanity’ then deep down ‘they’ seek that same oblivion.

This got me seeing ‘humanity’ in a different light, I remembered that old advice to “imagine the audience sitting in their underpants when giving a speech” in order to lessen one’s anxiety. It’s like I could see all of ‘humanity’ sitting in their underpants :laughing: All those highly sophisticated identities are deep down looking for the very same thing - their own oblivion. Yet they do not have a way to do it, so they can only invest in a temporary escape, they are stuck always with a return ticket. It is interesting to consider all the madness around is caused by entities who deep down wish for their own demise.

Perhaps @Andrew you were on that very same ‘self-destruct’ mission all along but just going about it the wrong way. As in ‘I’ wish to end ‘me’ but without the third alternative ‘I’ resort to destroying this body in desperate hope to release ‘me’ from suffering. Anything but remaining ‘me’ as ‘I’ am it seems. Altruistic ‘self’ sacrifice then is a way to achieve this whilst providing benefit to this body, that body and everybody.

So seeing that both ‘me’ and ‘humanity’ secretly desire oblivion and furthermore that all those elaborate ploys within ‘humanity’ are desperate attempts at escaping from being ‘me’ (always temporarily), the possibility of self-immolation is now viewed in a different light, with actualism being a bullet train towards that which ‘I’ secretly desire anyways.

Intermittently I have been experiencing glimpses of that blessed anonymity which exists after ‘my’ demise, it is indeed what ‘I’ desire. It’s interesting because there is a flavour of that in the various temporary escapes that ‘I’ can employ, eg alcohol or drugs. Those temporary escapes have a flavour of what life is like when ‘I’ am not around, of life living itself, of that blessed release from ‘being’, it is what ‘we’ all want.

If this is what ‘we’ all want then the obvious thing is to practically proceed towards doing it, sooner rather than later. As the alternative is for ‘me’ and ‘humanity’ to continue wasting time and energy on those temporary escapes which inevitably bring about the madness that is seen all around.

So ‘I’ know that ‘I’ wish for ‘my’ own demise, but of course ‘I’ am not fully on board otherwise it would have happened already. So I have been exploring what is left, what components of ‘humanity’ are being saved and what for? Then contrasting those with the experience of that blessed anonymity where life lives itself. What a cool adventure to embark on, to consciously and willingly orient all of ‘myself’ towards that desire for ‘my’ ending, and for it all to have such a practicality to it also haha!

I notice that in my life I always had the tendency to proceed forward only when the sense and practicality of a course of action finally clicked, as in once it makes sense to do something I simply do it, but I do not do it merely because it seems like a good idea.
It seems it is no different with self-immolation, as in there has to be not a single objection left, and once it clicks that this is obviously the most sensible course of action, then it happens.

I remember a zoom with Geoffrey where he mentioned [obviously this could not actually happen and was just a thought experiment] that if he was to become an identity he would simply self immolate in 5 minutes, after checking out what it is like. It would be that simple because it is the most sensible course of action.

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@Kub933 I found this post to be sensible and simplistic so I asked myself why so few have done it and only two (1 dead) have gone all the way ?
Speaking personally I have nothing to lose. I have no fear, no family, no relationship, no career and not much life left. Yet I haven’t done it. There seems to be some missing ingredient. What is it?

I guess looking at it the other way it’s actually impressive that so many have done it and so quickly.

If you consider the enormous length of time over which the instictual passions were the primary driver, prior to intelligence developing.

Then you consider the thousands of years of the various ‘tried and true’ systems being the way of life.

Then you consider that right on the tip of that iceberg is the 30 years or so since actual freedom was discovered.

And here we are shaking off not only those thousands of years of the ‘tried and true’ systems but also the millions of years over which the ‘self’ reigned.
Perhaps the missing ingredient may be an underestimation of what one is up against and therefore the kind of intent needed to have it happen in this lifetime.

For sure the universe will eventually guarantee the spread of actual freedom regardless, the question is am ‘I’ sufficiently motivated to do it in this lifetime and thus encourage peace on earth sooner rather than later.

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I was always immensely impressed by Richard’s intent, how he did it with no precedent, through enlightenment and right into insanity as classed through ‘human wisdom’, the whole way on his own (but never alone). Maybe that gives some idea of the kind of intent needed, even though the way is much clearer now.

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[quote=“Kub933, post:1128, topic:467”]
@Kub933 “Perhaps the missing ingredient may be an underestimation of what one is up against and therefore the kind of intent needed to have it happen in this lifetime.”

James: Excellent reply, it makes sense to me that the missing ingredient very well could be “the kind of intent needed to have it happen in this lifetime.”

I amended this post just now to add the “(but never alone)” and realised the significance of this… That is how he was able to do it. Of course it is referring to pure intent.

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Message received: My missing ingredient clearly is intent plus pure intent which makes it (never alone). To clarify: My missing ingredient is to have intent to do it and the pure intent to succeed.

Something to share from my own experience here. I was realizing a key difference between how I am now vs how I was before going out-from-control: it’s no longer a “whether” I will self-immolate, but a “how will I do it? What’s the next step?”

In other words the decision has already been made, and doesn’t keep needing to be made over and over. Now it’s just a matter of it coming to a culmination :slight_smile:

Fun times indeed!

Cheers,
Claudiu

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Yes, I see. That does sound like intent indeed.

Brilliant, this makes sense as to why the desire for oblivion is there and the feeling that its better for everyone if im not here, they are the whispers of the altruistic instinct.

Im going to channel my energy in that direction

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Hi Claudiu,
I enjoyed reading your post “it’s no longer a “whether” I will self-immolate, but a “how will I do it?” [link].

At this point even the “how will I do it?" is a distraction/ an excuse for putting it off – and I say this from ‘Vineeto’s’ experience. When you say !YES! with your whole being, it is no longer a question of ‘how’.
There is only action and the sweetness of pure intent to have it happen.
(do you ask ‘how’ before you jump over a rivulet or before you open a window or crack an egg for breakfast?)

The relevant question at this point is “when” and the answer is easy - there is always only this moment.

Enjoy.
Cheers Vineeto

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Hi Kuba,
While this is eminently a sensible course of action for most actions in life and to a certain degree for becoming actually free, the last step cannot follow the same pattern. Once you sorted out everything you can sensibly sorting out, you will by its very nature do something you have never done before – manumit your ‘self’.
This last step is something entirely new in your life and is necessarily a jump from the known into the unknown (which you had glimpses of). But you cannot reason it out in advance – you cannot rely on your trusted sensible pattern of action.
That’s why Richard emphasizes that actualism is not scientific, it is experiential.
To succeed, you will have to dare to care, to care so deeply that you dare to do something, to allow something to happen, that has never happened to you before. This aspect of it is an immense daring and hence it needs a deep and abiding caring – and then, in the blink of an eye, you are here, here where you belong.

I remember a zoom with Geoffrey where he mentioned [obviously this could not actually happen and was just a thought experiment] that if he was to become an identity he would simply self immolate in 5 minutes, after checking out what it is like. It would be that simple because it is the most sensible course of action.

It made me chuckle.
It is the most sensible course of action, of course :wink: smile:
Cheers Vineeto

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Hi Kuba,
Exactly. Just for emphasis, here is how Richard expressed it -

• [Richard]: “One knows, from the perfection of freedom from ‘human nature’ as evidenced in the PCE, that it is possible to live the actuality that is already always here. What ‘I’ do is unreservedly allow ‘my’ eventual demise to occur. It is not for the faint of heart or the weak of knee … but pure intent, born out of the connection between one’s inherent naïveté and the perfection of the infinitude of this physical universe, will provide one with the necessary intestinal fortitude. And once embarked upon the wide and wondrous path to an actual freedom, you are not on your own: this perfection is with you all the way … but if you waver, you are indeed doing it on your own”. [Mailing List 'D' Respondent No. 17]

and:

ALAN: As you said in one of your posts (approximately), it is an irresistible pull, a momentum and impetus which is not of ‘my’ doing.
RICHARD: Yes, once altruistically set in motion, a momentum happens of its own accord. One knows, from the perfection of freedom from the human condition as evidenced in the PCE, that it is possible to live the actuality that is already always here. What ‘I’ do is unreservedly allow ‘my’ eventual demise to occur … pure intent, born out of the connection between one’s inherent naiveté and the perfection of the infinitude of this physical universe, will provide one with the necessary intestinal fortitude. And once embarked upon the wide and wondrous path to an actual freedom, you are not on your own: this perfection is with you all the way … but if you waver, you are indeed doing it on your own. It is a matter of having the courage of your convictions and letting nothing stand in your way; determination and perseverance are the essential prerequisites to ensure success … coupled with application and diligence. One finds one must – one needs must actually do it – for no one else will do it for you as no one else can do it for you. And although one may think and feel that it would be a lonely journey to take on one’s own it is not … it is the most joyous escapade one can ever enter into.
It is the jaunt of a lifetime. (Actual Freedom List, Alan)

Cheers Vineeto

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Yes this makes sense, I did consider this when I was writing that post because I remembered that prior to going out from control I also had no way to know exactly what it was I was aiming for or how exactly it would look like when it’s happening, and yet there was still a movement forward, it had to be discovered and so it was all about experientially proceeding forward.
Now looking back it makes sense but that is because the shift has happened already so I now have experiential knowledge which I can reason with.

Now I realise that going out from control (which is a different way of ‘being’) is small potatoes compared with ‘my’ total extinction. But it was a qualitative shift of sorts so I can see that I cannot know what something is like before it is experienced, and of course this applies to ‘my’ self-immolation, as Richard wrote in his journal :

Just like one cannot know the taste of something until one eats it … so too is it with death as the end of ‘being’

I remember specifically from my PCEs that I find myself in a completely different world, and this is not hyperbole, it is a whole new world. So with the ending of ‘being’ this body finds itself firmly and irrevocably in that whole new world, with ‘me’ and ‘reality’ having never actually existed in the first place.
So yes I can see that there is no way ‘I’ could possibly reason this out in advance, actually it’s kind of funny to consider that ‘I’ might even try.

So this is good news actually! Because there is no recipe, and as there is no recipe there are no steps to follow, as there are no steps to follow then now is both the way and the means.

This is just wonderful advice, received clearly and with much appreciation :blush: It reminds me of Srinath’s report of becoming free :

The enormity of this dawned on me suddenly like it never had before. The enormity of what I had to give up. It took my breath away

This is the kind of daring and the kind of care we are talking about. I can see it will take a once in a lifetime dedication to have it happen, something ‘I’ have never done before and will never do again. Indeed what a time to be alive!

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Now I realise that going out from control (which is a different way of ‘being’) is small potatoes compared with ‘my’ total extinction. But it was a qualitative shift of sorts so I can see that I cannot know what something is like before it is experienced, and of course this applies to ‘my’ self-immolation, as Richard wrote in his journal :

Just like one cannot know the taste of something until one eats it … so too is it with death as the end of ‘being’

I remember specifically from my PCEs that I find myself in a completely different world, and this is not hyperbole, it is a whole new world. So with the ending of ‘being’ this body finds itself firmly and irrevocably in that whole new world, with ‘me’ and ‘reality’ having never actually existed in the first place.
So yes I can see that there is no way ‘I’ could possibly reason this out in advance, actually it’s kind of funny to consider that ‘I’ might even try.

Hi Kuba,

It’s a delight to read your posts.

Yes, the actual world cannot be imagined and neither can ‘being’ conceive of ever not ‘being’ and this is truly “funny to consider that ‘I’ might even try”. It will save you a lot of head-ache to not even try.:blush:

What you can do is have supreme confidence that you know what you are heading for, from you experiences of you PCEs and the pure intent born from your PCEs and from experiencing it during your out-from-control period.

So this is good news actually! Because there is no recipe, and as there is no recipe there are no steps to follow, as there are no steps to follow then now is both the way and the means.

It is good news indeed and it’s great you can experience it that way. Now you know for certain that there are no conditions to becoming actually free and hence nothing is standing in the way for ‘you’ to allow it to happen.

[Vineeto]: To succeed, you will have to dare to care, to care so deeply that you dare to do something, to allow something to happen, that has never happened to you before. This aspect of it is an immense daring and hence it needs a deep and abiding caring – and then, in the blink of an eye, you are here, here where you belong.

This is just wonderful advice, received clearly and with much appreciation :blush: It reminds me of Srinath’s report of becoming free :

The enormity of this dawned on me suddenly like it never had before. The enormity of what I had to give up. It took my breath away

This is the kind of daring and the kind of care we are talking about. I can see it will take a once in a lifetime dedication to have it happen, something ‘I’ have never done before and will never do again. Indeed what a time to be alive!

It is utterly thrilling to stand on the threshold of what you wanted to happen for so long, and from my experience it is also like coming home because it has been so familiar from the PCEs – the ones which told me that this is how I wanted to live for the rest of my life – just much, much more.

I greatly appreciate both your daring and your caring to go all the way.
As you so aptly say now is both the way and the means”.

Cheers Vineeto

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Yes and I now understand what “no conditions” is referring to, which I did not in the past. Because one could be silly and argue that technically ‘me’ wanting to self-immolate is a condition etc.

But what it is actually referring to is the fact that there isn’t anything outside of ‘me’ that is preventing it from happening.

There isn’t some external force wielding it’s authority and demanding that A,B,C is ticked off first, that the correct performance needs to be given before ‘I’ reap ‘my’ reward etc That is exactly the old paradigm.

No conditions means that it is in ‘my’ hands and ‘my’ hands alone, not that ‘I’ don’t have to do anything or that ‘I’ simply wait for it to happen.
If there is nothing external stopping ‘me’ then this means ‘I’ am also the only one capable of doing it.

No conditions means that ‘I’ am free to do it now as ‘I’ am the only one that can do it now.

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So I was watching some reality TV with @Sonyaxx last night, one of my favourite past times as I get to observe and comment on the various aspects of the human condition playing out :laughing:

Anyway there was a brilliant shot of the full moon showing the many craters that pretty much cover it’s whole surface. This got me contemplating on the nature of time and no longer interested in the ‘human’ drama playing out haha.

I just googled this and each square kilometre patch of the moon only gets hit by an object the size of a ping pong ball or larger roughly once per every thousand years or so. So looking at the many craters it dawned on me just what an enormous length of time the moon has been here to collect them all.

And yet has any time actually passed as in then and now? Because the moon has only ever been here now, where this moment is happening. When those asteroids hit millions of years ago it was also this moment, it happened now as time does not move in actuality. I realised what Richard referred to when he said that this moment has no duration as in now and then, it takes no interval at all to arrive.

So this “enormous length of time” equally took no interval to happen, it has always been this moment even those millions of years ago. So I realise there is 3 ways in which time is experienced, there is psychological time (past/present/future) as experienced by ‘me’, there is the domesticated human time which is the relative measure of objects moving through space, and then there is actual time which has no duration.

There is something very freeing in the experience of actual time, in experiencing the fact that this moment has no duration, everything that happens, happens now. Any attempt at inserting an interval is to remove oneself from this moment, to segregate A an B and then compare them according to an external measure, then to call the relative movement of A vs B actual time is a mistake - for ‘me’ to live inside this creation is to be locked out of actual time.

It seems the freeing aspect of actual time is the fact that this body is locked securely in it, as it is always this moment it is impossible to be anywhere but here now. As it is always this moment there is no distance at all which needs to be bridged between now and then. That distance exists only in ‘my’ reality and it is a painful distance.
As ‘I’ am locked out of time ‘I’ have to resort to various coping mechanisms in order to continue bridging that gap, when no gap exists there is no longer a need for any of these.

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Hi Kuba,
I sounds like you had a glimpse - or more than a glimpse - of infinitude, having all the time in the universe. And it wasn’t frightening, it was utterly wonder-ful.
Cheers Vineeto

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