Ian's Journal

Journals
101

Vineeto: The sooner you grasp that actualism is something entirely new to human consciousness, the sooner you will understand more of what is written and be able to clear the workbench and start afresh, i.e. unlearn/decline what you have been taught as “the Truth”.

Ed: I can remember one of our earliest exchanges where you gave me the advice that it’s more helpful to look for the differences between spirituality and actualism than the similarities. That advice went a long way in clearing things up but I’ve never looked closely at the literature surrounding out-from-control as I consider that to be beyond me at this point. The recent discussions have been causing me to take a closer look.
I think there’s a temptation to try to understand where the two “schools” overlap as they both deal with matters of consciousness. But the end results are so drastically different that it makes no sense to take advice from a path that leads to undesired results. I often wonder about the spiritualist’s use of naivety & innocence, as they often emphasize these qualities. But this seems to gets translated to a ‘sexual innocence’ where abstinence is recommended. It was always odd to me they never addressed the desire and objectification driving the behavior. (As well as it still seemingly present in them). I guess in the end it doesn’t conflict with their Truth, and thus there’s no reason to fundamentally change.
There’s more I’d like to say but it’s a challenge to put it together coherently.

Hi Ed,

I wonder why you would want to spend more of your most valuable asset, your time, to give way to your “temptation” to search for theoretical semantic “similarities” between spiritualism and your concept of actualism. Because this is what it can ever be, a concept, until you actually do it. If you had a comprehensive grasp what the experiential understanding of actualism is you would see right away that there is no similarity at all. (link)

Besides, as long as you consider actualism as one of the “schools” which “ deal with matters of consciousness” you will never understand actualism because it is not a “school” but experiential.

A more fruitful investigation would be why you have this temptation (=feeling) in the first place? Is it perhaps to justify having spent so many years of your life in a fruitless endeavour and have difficulties (or pride) to admit that it was a futile enterprise? Or is it to delay dedicating your life doing something worthwhile?

Vineeto: Personally, I was consistently being naiveté/ being in an ongoing excellence experience, due to having traversed the wall of fear and having fully agreed to ‘my’ impending demise for 4 and a half weeks, with a disruption of 3 days. You can work out the percentage for yourself.

Ed: Were you no longer out-from-control for those 3 days? I guess I wonder if being out-from-control played a part in you getting swept into the emotions of the event – with no boundaries or limitations to control how you should feel. No loyalty to Richard or the image of yourself that had been a practicing actualist.

And I wonder why you keep asking (3 times now) about those 3 days during my actualism process rather than asking how I succeeded to become actually free, especially as this particular event most likely won’t have any relevance any longer for those aspiring to become actually free?

To explain: For the very first pioneers ‘insanity’ played a prominent role for several reasons –

  • Richard described his enlightenment period also as 11 years of institutionalised insanity and repeatedly warned everyone about it.
  • Feeling being ‘Vineeto’ was at times witness to both Richard’s second wife (de jure) and his third wife (de facto) being fearful of Richard being insane (his second wife responded to this fear by living in and out of an ASC (“The Goddess all humankind had been expecting”). (Richard, List D, No. 6, 16 Nov 2009). Their occasional suspicion was only natural Richard being the first person (and the only one at the time) having not affective, psychic and imaginary faculty, i.e. being free from the human condition.
  • Several people on the mailing list went on and on about Richard having particular forms of insanity based on their own amateurish long-distance diagnoses (Common Objections “Richard is insane”).

‘Vineeto’ had never been (consciously) affected by these quite ridiculous amateurish long-distance claims and ‘she’ had plenty of PCEs of ‘her’ own to know what ‘she’ was aiming for … until the mutiny occurred –

Richard: As this had been my experience twice before – once on the previous night, when another feeling ‘being’ had inadvertently slipped bodily through[1]
[1]The reason why the word inadvertently is apt is because that feeling ‘being’ – just as was the case with my second wife (de jure) many years previously – was not of sufficient qualification to be the direct-route pioneer essential for global peace and harmony; indeed, this inadvertent access was of an ‘innocent abroad’ nature, to use a popular expression, and the dilettante quality of such a privileged access – despite being complete, as it was, with the most perfect bodily touching (a physical caressing of absolute perfection) – led to their worldview-shattering discovery of my actual age (worldview-shattering only for ill-informed/ ill-prepared dabblers); this worldview-shattering shock of theirs, accompanied by much wide-eyed staring and the plaintive crying-out of the words ‘Two worlds!?! Two worlds!?!’ instigated the panic-stricken dash for (presumed) safety from an (assumed to be) insane man – as concluded from an amateurish ‘split-personality mental disorder’ diagnosis (based solely upon an automorphically ascribed adult personality who was, supposedly, co-existing with a ‘left behind’ teenager) – and the consequent mutiny as others were affectively-psychically sucked, willy-nilly, into a collective panic.
As the word collective here refers to blind nature’s affective herding/ flocking survival package a shipboard insurrection/ insurgency is essentially no different to any such seditious/subversive civic disorder, whether on land or at sea, whereupon the much-touted ‘community spirit’/ ‘communal rallies’ can abruptly turn, in a collective flash of affective-psychic power-play, into the notorious ‘mob riots’/ ‘mob violence’ which ruling classes through the ages have feared so much (as in peasant uprisings/ working-class revolutions).
The solution?
None other than the extirpation of the entire affective faculty/ the identity in toto formed thereof – whereby all hierarchical civic order via civic control becomes instantly redundant – leaving only equity and parity (not equality) where previously there was an instinctual jostling for pecking order. (Announcement1, #magic, [R] tooltip Footnote [1])

Here is another statement about the mutiny –

Richard: (…) the primary reason – indeed the sole cause – for the mutiny (…) was the utter panic which ensued, upon having inadvertently had direct access to me as I actually am, pursuant to the revelation that the writer of these millions of words is but an innocent youth … (Richard, List D, No. 2, 6 Jan 2010).

‘Vineeto’ was one of the people infected by the “panic-stricken” strong vibes, which corresponded to ‘her’ own atavistic fear of being insane/ Richard being insane after all, which ‘she’ had not been aware of all this while – a fear which ‘she’ experienced as being more dire than death itself. Hence it took three days for ‘her’ to come to ‘her’ senses.

However, upon her return to the convivium, before ‘she’ had even spoken with Richard, an event happened which I recently relayed –

Vineeto to Claudiu: To expand on ‘Vineeto’s’ experience “that ‘she’ was ready to give up anything and everything ‘she’ had valued” –
‘Vineeto’ had returned to the remote wilderness where the houseboats were moored (still under the frightening impression that Richard had a “split-personality mental disorder’ (Announcement1, #magic, [R] tooltip Footnote [1]) to pack ‘her’ office paraphernalia and other necessities into the dinghy to take to a temporary location elsewhere until ‘she’ knew what to do next. She met the other two mutineers a few hundred meters upstream, only to then be informed they wanted to disassociate themselves from the whole affair right then and there and would not take ‘her’ in their car. So ‘Vineeto’ found ‘herself’ abandoned at nowhere in that ancient rainforest, her belongings in the dinghy, which at that point had run out of petrol, and stark naked (as everyone was on their holiday).
Strangely enough, this last shocking turn of events, instead of freaking ‘her’ out, brought an unexpected calm, ‘she’ slipped into the warm water of the creek and, floating along, looked at the sky and ‘her’ only thought was “if this is what it takes to become actually free so be it.” (During the 2-3 out-of-control days, although ‘she’ questioned Richard’s state of mind ‘she’ never doubted his words written on the website, nor the PCEs nor ‘her’ intent to become actually free despite the emotional turmoil).
The last turn of events resulted in a surprising peacefulness after the emotion-filled events of the last two-and-a-half days – no more struggle, only the full permission and endorsement to let the universe run ‘her’ life, as all ‘she’ had tried had come to naught.
‘She’ eventually made it back to the houseboats, towed by two roaming fishermen (there was no room to be self-conscious then) yet it took another few hours to gather the courage to talk to Richard about the whys and wherefores of what happened – by this time not knowing anymore if Richard was insane or ‘she’ ‘herself’ had lost the plot completely. In hindsight it was all utterly hilarious. (to Claudiu, 12 Mar 2025)

As such, it was all a necessary precursor (necessary because it happened) to clean out the last remnants of any resistance to becoming actually free, which happened only a few days later.

The reason I said that “this particular event most likely won’t have any relevance any longer for those aspiring to become actually free” is because the Direct Route has been opened, so demonstrably no one needs to venture close to enlightenment (institutionalised insanity) in order to become actually free. Also because it has been, again demonstrably, proven that an actual freedom is replicable by several people so far, the fear of going insane never needs to come up at all.

‘Nough said.

Ed: Or alternatively, with the diminishment of naivety & presence of fearful feelings, did the out-from-control different way of being cease only to be restarted at the end of the 3 days?

As I said, there was a disruption of an ongoing excellence experience for 3 days – do you not to know what the word “disruption” means?

interruption, suspension, discontinuation, stoppage, delay (Oxford Languages).

Or a 3rd option? (link)

Nope.

Cheers Vineeto

102

In this case it’s wondering if the ‘doer’ / ‘beer’ word choice had anything to do with the ‘doer’/‘beer’ language in spiritaulity. There are plenty of cases of Richard using spiritual vocabulary. What’s becoming clear is that any spiritual understanding of a word cannot be useful since the words and understandings stem from spiritual experiences and not from entirely new to human experience experiences that actualist pioneers are navigating.

“Schools” was intentionally put into quotations understanding it may not be the best word and was being used by its definition “a style, approach, or method of a specified character.” I’m just trying to keep it simple and am attempting to express a boundary without laboriously expounding clarification.

The mistake is equating Richard’s use of the words “beer/dooer” to the spiritualist’s use of the words and thinking that something could be gleaned from their writing. I can tell you that it’s neither of the options you present me but there are other avenues worth exploring. I’d be happy to navigate that with you in good faith if you’re interested.

Because you didn’t answer the initial question directly, “does being out-from-control guarantee you’ll feel good?..Can you elaborate on the potential for the ‘bad’ and ‘good’ emotions while being out-from-control?” Looking back on the correspondence, you don’t address that question. You state you were consistently being naivete for 4 1/2 weeks with a disruption of 3 days and then tell me to work out the math as if I care about the length of the disruption. I’m not presenting a “gotcha” question. You told me you were being naivete for 4 and 1/2 weeks with a disruption of 3 days. I’m asking if being out-from-control was disrupted for those 3 days. Obviously being naivete was disrupted. Are they one-in-the-same? Perhaps that’s where the confusion on my end is and you can tell me as much.

I’m trying to understand if it’s a permanent state or not. And if it is permanent why the detour and can being out-from-control include the ‘bad/good’ feelings? Or, does one cease being out-from-control the moment they arise? Why is it different from an ongoing EE to necessitate it’s own vocabulary? Even at the end of your last post you describe it as a disruption of an ongoing excellence experience - not a disruption of being out-from-control. If the two are the same, then an EE is synonymous with being out-from-control.

Given what you’ve said, am I understanding correctly that you were out-from-control, and then no longer out-from-control for 3-days, only to resume being out-from-control?

If you’re wondering why I’m asking questions then the best way to find out is by answering directly so the conversation can proceed. While it may be obvious to you that the event (a disruption during the best example of being out-from-control) most likely won’t have any relevance to those aspiring to become actually free - it may not be so obvious to me. I don’t know what to tell you other than my questions are coming from a genuine place.

1 Like
103

Just wanted to chip in that I think these are valid questions and I don’t think they are currently answered on the AFT site. Probably this in large part due to so few data points such as not to be able to have a really good map of this territory yet.

As far as I can tell, the only fundamentally distinguishing characteristic between a (temporary) EE and out-from-control virtual freedom (which is also labeled as an ongoing EE) is the ‘dynamic’ aspect:

As to whether it is still out-from-control virtual freedom even if the ongoing excellence experience stops/was disrupted (such as during a 3-day out-of-control panic) – that’s a question for people who have experience with this virtual freedom to answer (eg Vineeto, Geoffrey). But then if the excellence experience is disrupted that means one is no longer the ‘ascendant beer’ either but back to being the ‘doer’ and thus not being able to fully allow pure intent to be dynamically operative… but then again this is me putting-together of various disparate definitions and not speaking from experience, this critical lack of experience means I cannot put together the definitions and expect to come up with a good answer lol.

And also relevant: Devika is considered to have experienced out-from-control virtual freedom for thirteen months:

RICHARD: Irene (as distinct from Devika) never spoke in such a manner as to bring about the out-from-control/ different-way-of-being virtual freedom which Devika lived for thirteen months, from November 1996 to December 1997 [corrected to Nov 1995 to Dec 1996], such as to occasion me to coin that term (and during which she penned those now-italicised passages of hers specifically for inclusion in what was to become ‘Richard’s Journal’). [link]

Was it really thirteen uninterrupted months of an ongoing excellence experience, of being naivete personified, non-stop 24/7 for 13 months? And if not then what makes it so she was indeed living an out-from-control virtual freedom the entire time?

I wonder how much of this is just what is practically useful too. Like if it is now the case, due to how the map is drawn out, that one can be fully allowing pure intent to be dynamically operative (and thus virtually free) even though one is feeling bad or even having a panic attack… that just leave the door wide open for people to fool themselves they’re living that even though they aren’t (even if it’s added that it’s a 99% of the time thing…) But maybe that is actually what virtual freedom is? But then is it really useful to make a map like that?

Also I wonder how much of it comes down to what to call things rather than what they ‘are’. Like we can say it stops and starts or we can say it continues the whole time, to describe the same thing. ie a question of picking definitions.

Also this might be a thing to like gather some more data points of people experientially doing it, and then those people all having long and thoughtful conversations and deliberations about it all, and this being what is required to come up w/ a good answer, ie one that’s actually useful for more people to become actually free… or in other words, maybe this is not something that can be answered with a few hours of thought at this juncture. But I am speculating, I do not really know.

Anyway just wanted to add these musings and thoughts as I don’t think these are unreasonable questions :smile: . In terms of what is practically useful for me at this point, it isn’t the answer to any of these, but rather a seeing for myself, I am going with the approach to better label this stuff retroactively now – this isn’t advice just a reporting of what I’m doing.

Cheers,
Claudiu

104

Vineeto: I wonder why you would want to spend more of your most valuable asset, your time, to give way to your “temptation” to search for theoretical semantic “similarities” between spiritualism and your concept of actualism.

Ed: In this case it’s wondering if the ‘doer’ / ‘beer’ word choice had anything to do with the ‘doer’/ ‘beer’ language in spirituality. There are plenty of cases of Richard using spiritual vocabulary. What’s becoming clear is that any spiritual understanding of a word cannot be useful since the words and understandings stem from spiritual experiences and not from entirely new to human experience experiences that actualist pioneers are navigating. (…)

Hi Ed,

The ‘doer’/ ‘beer’ terminology does has nothing to do with any of the spiritual definitions, and I already sent you a quote explaining that which you commented on. Viz.:

Richard: Lastly, because the terms ‘doer’ and ‘beer’ are utilised in religio-spiritual/ mystico-metaphysical literature to refer to ‘ego’ and ‘soul’, respectively, it is apposite to point out here that those terms are not being used thataway when referring to the doer being abeyant, and the beer ascendant, in either a near-PCE – else IE’s and EE’s would instead be ASC’s (i.e., egoless) and thus not near-PCE’s – or when in an out-from-control virtual freedom. (Richard, List D, Srinath2, #out-from-control)

The ‘doer’ is the sophisticated (philosophising, rational, conceptualising and controlling) ‘doer’ whereas the ‘beer’ is a benign naïve ‘beer’ within the scales of naiveté ranging from being sincere to becoming naïve and all the way through being naïveté itself to an actual innocence (in a PCE), such as described in Grace’s scale of intimacy –

Richard: (…) A richness (aka an excellence experience) is where sweetness segues into a near-absence of agency via letting-go of control and one is the sex and sexuality (the beer and not the doer). (…) ‘Excellent’ related to richness (a near-absence of agency; with the [sophisticated] ‘doer’ abeyant, and the [naïve] ‘beer’ ascendant, being the experiencing is inherently cornucopian); [emphasis added]. (Richard, List D, Claudiu4, 28 Jan 2016). (see also Richard, Abditorium, Intimacy and Intimacy Experience).

More on not mixing spiritual practice with actualist practice –

Richard: Fifth, as any ‘letting go of the controls’ by the controller means, ipso facto, the controller still remaining in situ it can only refer to – just as you do – something of the nature of a [quote] ‘certain degree of letting go (of beliefs and old patterns)’ [endquote] else it does indeed bring a spiritualist practice into an actualist practice … complete with the still in situ controller cunningly morphing into the watcher of religio-spiritual/ mystico-metaphysical lore and legend. [Emphasis added]. (Richard, List D, No. 12, 9 Dec 2009).

–

Vineeto: A more fruitful investigation would be why you have this temptation (=feeling) in the first place? Is it perhaps to justify having spent so many years of your life in a fruitless endeavour and have difficulties (or pride) to admit that it was a futile enterprise? Or is it to delay dedicating your life doing something worthwhile?

Ed: The mistake is equating Richard’s use of the words “beer/doer” to the spiritualist’s use of the words and thinking that something could be gleaned from their writing. I can tell you that it’s neither of the options you present me but there are other avenues worth exploring. I’d be happy to navigate that with you in good faith if you’re interested.
Because you didn’t answer the initial question directly, “does being out-from-control guarantee you’ll feel good? …

As there were multiple quotes presented which describe that being out-from-control is dynamic and that Devika relapsed from her dynamic virtual freedom I wonder why you still have to ask if feeling good is either guaranteed or permanent. Only the complete disappearance of the instinctual passions and the identity formed thereof is irrevocable, i.e. guaranteed and permanent.

Ed: Can you elaborate on the potential for the ‘bad’ and ‘good’ emotions while being out-from-control?” Looking back on the correspondence, you don’t address that question.

I did not address this question specifically because the answer regarding “‘bad’ and ‘good’ emotions” is inherent in every description of what being out-from-control is – an ongoing excellence/ intimacy experience –

Richard: An obvious out-from-control/ different-way-of-being virtual freedom is an on-going excellence experience … (Richard, List D, No. 12, 9 Dec 2009).

An excellence experience is clearly explained as feeling excellent (Richard, Selected Correspondence, Excellence) which is per definition feeling better than good. Of course it is a precursor to an actual freedom, hence less than excellent experiencing occasionally can happen, but with pure intent fully activated less than excellent feelings will flush out the last remnants of whatever prevents an actual freedom now, “pulling one evermore unto one’s destiny”. Thus one is back to feeling excellent, (so near to being a PCE as to be almost indistinguishable from it), in a very short period of time.

Richard: What sets the ongoing near-PCE known as “a dynamic, destinal virtual freedom” apart from ever other way of life/ manner of living is, as is expressed in that paragraph, by being in full allowance of the benignity and benevolence inherent to pure intent being dynamically operative – whereby the actualism method segues into the actualism process – such as to be pulling one evermore unto one’s destiny. (Richard, List D, Claudiu4, 15 Aug 2016).

And here is why you perhaps have difficulties to wrap your mind around the experiential aspect of this topic –

Richard: (Being out-from-control/ in a different-way-of-being is quite daunting to contemplate as an on-going EE marks the end of the beginning of the end of ‘me’ and the commencement of the actualism process – as distinct from the actualism method – wherein a momentum not of ‘my’ doing takes over and an inevitability sets in; in an on-going EE the actual world has the effect of impelling one towards it – like a moth to a candle as the overarching benignity and benevolence of the actual increasingly operates such as to render ‘my’ felicity/ innocuity increasingly redundant; this is where being the nearest a ‘self’ can be to innocence – the naiveté located betwixt the core of being and the sexual centre (where one is both likeable and liking) – is attached as if with a golden thread or clew to the purity of actual innocence; an on-going EE is, thus, where one becomes acclimatised to benignity and benevolence and the resultant blitheness because the purity of the actual is so powerful that it would ‘blow the fuses’ if one was to venture into this territory ill-prepared). (Richard, List D, No. 12, 9 Dec 2009).

Ed: Can you elaborate on the potential for the ‘bad’ and ‘good’ emotions while being out-from-control?” Looking back on the correspondence, you don’t address that question.

I did answer the question but you were dissatisfied –

ED: 3. Does being out-from-control guarantee you’ll feel good? My understanding is that during this period the mutiny took place, am I correct? Can you elaborate on the potential for the “bad” & “good” emotions while being out-from-control?
VINEETO: Personally, I was consistently being naiveté/ being in an ongoing excellence experience, due to having traversed the wall of fear and having unequivocally agreed to ‘my’ impending demise for 4 and a half weeks, with a disruption of 3 days. You can work out the percentage for yourself. (link) (Actualism, Vineeto, Ed, 10 Jun 2025).

As for “potential” (synonyms: possible, prospective, future, probable (Oxford Languages)) – this is a hypothetical question, a thought-out projection about potential into the future and cannot be answered.

In other words, it is the controller who want to map out every step and ascertain the risks before experientially putting the first toe in the water, taking the first step into naiveté. As the way to being out-from-control is only when the controller, the ‘doer’ is descendant, i.e. moving into the background, such a map will not only be useless but counterproductive to naiveté.

Perhaps Geoffrey’s apposite ditty expresses it most succinctly and to the point –

Geoffrey: Ok here we go. My first reaction, when some notification appeared that my name had been uttered, was: WhO dIsTuRbS My sLuMbEr? (joy)That joy had me sit, and write the following: For I had been exploring the unknown continent, its golden cities and living clouds, for weeks, without a word. When some letter found its way to me, its ink faded from the sea voyage, enquiring about matters so home-bound as to appear foreign: a quarrel about definitions, from the Royal Society of leathery armchairs, asking for my judgment. My ruling.

Please differentiate! they ask. Please settle our quarrel!
We wish to classify, exactly, those birds we’ve never seen!
So the golden city and the living clouds laughed and danced and sang:
“Won’t they open the windows? Won’t they bathe in the stream?
Won’t they take off their clothes, and swim through the sea?” (Geoffrey, Beer and Doer, February 2023).

Ed: You state you were consistently being naivete for 4 1/2 weeks with a disruption of 3 days and then tell me to work out the math as if I care about the length of the disruption. I’m not presenting a “gotcha” question. You told me you were being naivete for 4 and 1/2 weeks with a disruption of 3 days. I’m asking if being out-from-control was disrupted for those 3 days. Obviously being naivete was disrupted. Are they one-in-the-same? Perhaps that’s where the confusion on my end is and you can tell me as much.

What I can say is that being out-from-control was disrupted (=interrupted by being out-of-control) but the fact that ‘Vineeto’ had been out-from-control and could easily pick up ‘her’ connection to pure intent) and was fully committed to become free, the turning into an out-of-control period was only short and being out-from-control recommence with “being in full allowance of the benignity and benevolence inherent to pure intent being dynamically operative” after that particular disrupting issue (the fear of Richard being insane) had been settled.

Ed: I’m trying to understand if it’s a permanent state or not. And if it is permanent why the detour and can being out-from-control include the ‘bad/good’ feelings? Or, does one cease being out-from-control the moment they arise? Why is it different from an ongoing EE to necessitate it’s own vocabulary? Even at the end of your last post you describe it as a disruption of an ongoing excellence experience – not a disruption of being out-from-control. If the two are the same, then an EE is synonymous with being out-from-control.
Given what you’ve said, am I understanding correctly that you were out-from-control, and then no longer out-from-control for 3-days, only to resume being out-from-control?

Yes.

The reason why I didn’t answer that is because it was already clear from the links I provided (if you read them with attention that it is not permanent as Devika had clearly demonstrated that anyone can abandon pure intent at any time and take back control over ‘my’ life. This is not like buying an item with a ‘money-back guarantee’ – it is your life and freedom is in ‘your’ hands and ‘your’ hands alone.

Life is not all black and white and neither is the process of working one’s way out of the maze of the human condition. As I said, it’s experiential.

Ed: If you’re wondering why I’m asking questions then the best way to find out is by answering directly so the conversation can proceed. While it may be obvious to you that the event (a disruption during the best example of being out-from-control) most likely won’t have any relevance to those aspiring to become actually free – it may not be so obvious to me. I don’t know what to tell you other than my questions are coming from a genuine place. (link)

Perhaps this clear and extensive description/ clarification from Richard will settle your theoretical query until you have enough experiential expertise to settle it for yourself (it is from a file called “Richard’s Selected Correspondence, Dynamic Virtual Freedom” for which I provided the link to you in my first response to your queries on this topic, which you obviously failed to grasp) –

RICHARD: G’day No. 12, I appreciate you giving it a go to clarify and a timely word from me will make your clarification complete. First of all, it is probably inevitable the phrase out-from-control be (incorrectly) expressed as ‘letting go of control’ yet the fact remains that the controller, being the controls, cannot let go of that which they are.
Secondly, the hyphenated term you mention as me having been calling [quote] ‘an out of control virtual freedom as opposed to a in control virtual freedom’ [endquote] clearly has the hyphenated term different-way-of-being immediately after the forward slash betwixt the two hyphenated terms. Viz.:

[Richard]: […] being sans identity in toto/ the entire affective faculty (plus its epiphenomenal psychic facility) any residence or venue of mine is marked by an absence of both affective vibes and psychic currents … a pristine ambience made all the more marked, for many a person, upon returning from the ‘real-world’ environs after a previous visit.
[…] this pristine ambience is conducive to a sincere actualist activating their potential – albeit temporarily – as in some form of an out-from-control/ different-way-of-being (to whatever degree of intimacy they be comfortable with at the time). Furthermore, experience has shown that these intimacy experiences can be contagious, so to speak, for other sincere actualists also present as the atmosphere generated affectively/ psychically by the first to be out-from-control/ in a different-way-of-being can propagate a flow-on effect, on occasion.
In short: a felicitous and innocuous atmosphere, begotten in an ever-fresh affectless/ selfless ambience, fosters a milieu where happiness and harmlessness can be the norm rather than the exception. (Richard, List D, 14a, 4 Dec 2009).
(Richard’s Selected Correspondence, Dynamic Virtual Freedom)

Upon reflection it will be seen I am not – repeat not – referring to a PCE as ‘being’ is in abeyance then (the very fact not ‘being’ renders any different way of ‘being’ impossible).
Thirdly, and most importantly for any flow-on effect, in a PCE there is similarly a marked absence of both affective vibes and psychic currents – a pristine ambience – to that of an actual freedom. (As an aside: the 5-month PCE was as useless in regards affectively/ psychically fostering a milieu, where happiness and harmlessness can be the norm rather than the exception, as is an actual freedom).
An obvious out-from-control/ different-way-of-being virtual freedom is an on-going excellence experience (EE) but an on-going intimacy experience (IE) may very well be the most likely state as an EE, being so close to a PCE as to be barely distinguishable is not so likely to readily occur sooner rather than later.
(Being out-from-control/ in a different-way-of-being is quite daunting to contemplate as an on-going EE marks the end of the beginning of the end of ‘me’ and the commencement of the actualism process – as distinct from the actualism method – wherein a momentum not of ‘my’ doing takes over and an inevitability sets in; in an on-going EE the actual world has the effect of impelling one towards it – like a moth to a candle as the overarching benignity and benevolence of the actual increasingly operates such as to render ‘my’ felicity/ innocuity increasingly redundant; this is where being the nearest a ‘self’ can be to innocence – the naiveté located betwixt the core of being and the sexual centre (where one is both likeable and liking) – is attached as if with a golden thread or clew to the purity of actual innocence; an on-going EE is, thus, where one becomes acclimatised to benignity and benevolence and the resultant blitheness because the purity of the actual is so powerful that it would ‘blow the fuses’ if one was to venture into this territory ill-prepared).
Fourth, as any being out-from-control/ in a different-way-of-being (and there are varying degrees of such intimacy experiences) implicitly requires pure intent – which renders the necessity for morals/ ethics/ values/ principles null and void – it is certainly not the territory a fledgling actualist (to use your phraseology) has any business venturing into precipitously.
Fifth, as any ‘letting go of the controls’ by the controller means, ipso facto, the controller still remaining in situ it can only refer to – just as you do – something of the nature of a [quote] ‘certain degree of letting go (of beliefs and old patterns)’ [endquote] else it does indeed bring a spiritualist practice into an actualist practice … complete with the still in situ controller cunningly morphing into the watcher of religio-spiritual/ mystico-metaphysical lore and legend. [Emphasis added]. (informative tool-tips in the original)
(Richard’s Selected Correspondence, Dynamic Virtual Freedom)

In regards to your first question, “in this case it’s wondering if the ‘doer’/ ‘beer’ word choice had anything to do with the ‘doer’/ ‘beer’ language in spirituality. There are plenty of cases of Richard using spiritual vocabulary” –

When Richard is “using spiritual vocabulary” it is obvious from the context, when reading attentively, that he is talking about his enlightenment or another’s spiritual experience. Additionally, you need to take into consideration that Richard first wrote to a Buddhist mailing list (List A), then to a Krishnamurti mailing list (List B) and several correspondences to a John-de-Ruiter spiritual mailing list. He naturally adapted his writing to have his co-respondents understand what he was saying but always made it clear where the difference lay to an actual freedom. So your throw-away justification has no substance.

Whereas when you are attentive to where you (automatically/ inadvertently) insert your own spiritual interpretation into Richard’s words and/or overlook the context in which the correspondence was written, then there is no reason to blame Richard for his use of language as being the cause for your own mix-up, and/or skipping over information that does not instantly answer your specific question. And now, again you say it is my fault that I “didn’t answer the initial question directly” where the answer was in plain sight in the various links I provided all along. For instance –

RICHARD: (…) The virtual freedom being referred to in ‘Richard’s Journal’ is, of course, the full-blown experiencing of it: an out-from-being-under-control and, thus, different way of being nowadays known as an ongoing excellence experience.
(This ongoing excellence experience is what the methodological aspect of a virtual freedom – a persistent and diligent application of the actualism method – can morph into whenever that current-time awareness method has been applied to a sufficiency for that to occur/ have happen).
This penultimate out-from-under-control/ different-way-of-being is barely distinguishable from a pure consciousness experience. (It was from this ongoing excellence experiencing that pure consciousness experiences occurred on a near-daily basis – sometimes two-three times a day – for the identity inhabiting this flesh and blood body all those years ago). (Richard’s Selected Correspondence, Dynamic Virtual Freedom)

and:

RICHARD: Vineeto recently spoke of this feature of the actualism method as being essential for feeling-being ‘Vineeto’, when ‘her’ out-from-control virtual freedom turned into an out-of-control panic mode (in Message No. 12614). Viz.:

[Vineeto]: ‘This second panic only lasted for 3 days but because it happened during the out-from-control virtual freedom it turned into an out-of-control panic mode. Only ‘her’ decade-long training in keeping ‘her’ hands in ‘her’ pockets and neither repress nor express the intense feelings racing through ‘her’ allowed the extreme situation to subside so soon afterwards … and look where I am today’. [emphasis added].

And, once the third alternative hove into view for ‘her’, ‘she’ was once again tapping into pure intent personified – per favour ‘the quickening’ – and thereby got back to being (safely) out-from-control once more. (Richard’s Selected Correspondence, Dynamic Virtual Freedom)

RICHARD: In other words, someone genuinely out-from-control is constantly (i.e., consistently) ‘feeling excellent’, come-what-may, by the very nature of what that term refers to. (Richard’s Selected Correspondence, Dynamic Virtual Freedom)

RICHARD: In effect, the actualism process is what ensues when one gets out from being under control, via having given oneself prior permission to have one’s life live itself (i.e., sans the controlling doer), and a different way of being comes about (i.e., where the beer is the operant) – whereupon a thrilling out-from-control momentum takes over and an inevitability sets in – whereafter there is no pulling back (hence the reluctance in having it set in motion) as once begun it is nigh-on unstoppable.
Then one is in for the ride of a lifetime! (Richard’s Selected Correspondence, Dynamic Virtual Freedom)

Your high-handed dismissal of my replies (as in blaming Richard and myself for your own mis-understanding/ non-understanding) are not conducive to gaining a broader comprehension of what constitutes a dynamic, different-way-of-being. All I can do now is to recommend approaching the topic sincerely and naïvely, allowing yourself to think outside the box of both spiritualism and materialism, and perhaps even experientially find out for yourself what a different-way-of-being is like.

To put it differently, if you read the AFT website with full affective attentiveness (with all your heart) and better still, with all your being and a connection with pure intent, then something can happen and shift in your understanding. People have reported having PCEs resulting from reading it with this attitude. Then apperceptive awareness can provide clarity.

In short, I cannot do the thinking for you.

Regards Vineeto

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I think the confusion here was that, with just this in mind it sounds like the answer is that obviously feeling bad can’t happen, because the state is an ongoing excellence experience, and feeling excellent is better than feeling good!

But then the actual answer is not obvious from this ”inherent” description:

So the answer is that it isn’t an uninterrupted 24/7 ongoing excellence experience, but that the excellence experience aspect can be disrupted occasionally, but due to the full activation of pure intent (which remains even through the disruption of excellence it seems?) it is very short.

I realize this also isn’t anything new actually, Richard always put it like it’s a 99% thing. I do think it was beneficial to reiterate though!!

Probably it is obvious to you but even slight rewordings I think can be beneficial as without the experiential backing even saying the same thing in different ways can be informative (such as to clarify what constantly and consistently mean in this context as they can have many very close but nevertheless important distinctions).

I found this beneficial too to clarify the matters under discussion. The full allowance can also be disrupted (of course, as it was for Devika), which is the disruption of the virtual freedom. But it can resume readily if one wants it!

It’s sort of funny as drawing a better and better map indeed won’t help someone who doesn’t want to traverse the territory. But I like the idea of having a clear a one as possible anyway.

Cheers,
Claudiu

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Also this was a different answer! Ed was asking about ”the potential for the “bad” & “good” emotions while being out-from-control” but the answer here amounted to saying that an out-from-control virtual freedom can be disrupted. But it doesn’t speak to this ‘potential’ during an out-from-control virtual freedom.

And you did answer the ‘potential’ aspect of the question here too:

So it seems like it is all fully addressed now in a way that it hadn’t been earlier in the convo.

Just my 2 cents as there seems to be some apparent disconnects in the convo so I thought I’d share how I am experiencing it

Cheers
Claudiu

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