Elgin's Journal

That was an exellent post @Miguel. I copy/pasted it into my personal journal.
You explained the mechanisms very well. Great stuff!

Yes, its basically the same splitting which happens when we engage in self-pity etc.
Then we have two identities, one pitying the other etc. If I would believe in a god, then I would see this as an indication of an outside force looking down on ‘me’.

Thats it. It’s unclear… exactly! I tried to apply a set of basic rules, but it doesn’t add up at all. It always falls apart at some stage. When I really push it hard then it becomes more and more arbitrary the further I push it. At the end its always some random mess.

It’s absolutely unclear what that honor actually consists of or relates to, because the lines are always shifting. What is honorable for certain people might be a disgrace to others. What matters to me is the feeling of honor itself, but looking for it I can’t find any such thing. I might have my own set of rules, but even they don’t apply always and consistently. There is really nothing to find there. That was an interesting exploration.

What I came up with at the end is that what I really honor is actually… myself. Tada! What could it else be? Just the image I have of myself, the feeling of being that is what sustains it. It’s such a fallacy. The image of an honorable man can now die in peace.

I only can come up with the most sensible thing at any given moment. That’s it. Using intelligence and common sense is integrity in action. Nothing mysterious or hidden behind it.

Thanks guys/girls. That was super helpful!

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I had some very intense days. The “honorable man” theme was/is still rotating in my mind. Working, shifting, moving. This little, tiny thing became bigger and bigger by the minute. And reached it’s peak just yesterday.

It was like I was standing in the shadow of an immens skyscraper which was falling apart in front of me, in-real time. I was just a spectator who saw all the rubble falling down all around him. I didn’t do anything, while insights and revelations fell down left and right of me. I never suspected it to be such a thing in my life.

I began to understand that this theme has controlled and impacted me since I was a little boy. It was the cause of so much suffering and aggression in my life. I see how I was over-protective with my girlfriends, that I was passive aggressive towards my father, that it pushed me at my job and many more things. Everything became clearer. I sense many more things currently hidden behind the smoke and rubble. I’m not quite sure if that honor/pride thing is over, but today it was silent the whole day long.
I feel very reliefed and quite good at the moment.

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How beautiful this writing is . i was saying wow and ooh when reading it … I even could imagine that skyscraper in which you were standing in the shadow of it . i feel like you are very close to become actually free Elgin thanks to your friend …

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No, not really. I was not close to it. This was an entirely inside event. A huge chunk of my social identy I guess. It was an inward spiral so to say.

I guess I can talk about the difference a little bit more. It might help someone who gets into the same situation.

The phase of self-immolation is entirely different. When that phase starts you will immediately know what’s happening. It’s absolutely unmistakable. It may come as shock at first, because it may start suddenly. I was not prepared back then. Suddenly it just pulled like insane. An insane gravity pulling you >> into oblivion. I couldn’t understand before that event how intense the pull can be. I thought it was a manner of speech. But no, it actually pulls. Pure intent doesn’t cover the magnitude of what is happening.

From my experience nobody needs to be afraid of it, on the contrary. It was very pleasurable, vitalising, energizing, thrilling like nothing else I have ever experienced.
It’s like sliding down from the greatest mountain in existance but without any brakes. Sure, I was shitting my pants, but in a very delightful and exciting manner. Yes, exciting is the right word for that event. You will understand then. I wanted to run towards it, press fast forward and jump directly into oblivions face. It was quite a spectacle and I was enjoying it immensely.

But then that gravity, that immens pull began to cycle. It began to rest for minutes, then hours, then days. Later it faded completely. I wrote in my personal journal back then: “When it pulls it pulls. When it rests it rests. Why does it rest? Is it cycling in nature?” The thing which is still on my mind is this: I was embracing it. I was absolutely happy about it. I was allowing it, but that pull, the whole event was absolutely beyond me. I can’t see how I can influence it. It still doesn’t sound reasonable to me. This thing is happening from outside of me, totally.

Then I figured that I need to have more energy or that a second something outside, some different factor outside of me needs to be activated first. Maybe the altrusitic part of altrusitic self-immolation. The greater instinct. But it seems this also must be outside of me. Why did it even start then? It still boggles my mind. I was freaking sitting there “above the abyss” the whole time. Why didn’t it just swallow me?

Maybe it is was indeed the social identity interfering, but I didn’t notice anything from it at that time. This whole episode started after I met an old friend who become mentally ill and very unstable. Seeing a former sane and confident human beeing in this pitiful situation alerted me to the immens threat which is the human condition. I was not sad, self-indulgent or anything like that. I was very, very alert.
Like a Doberman who was detecting a danger. I wanted to end it period. A week later the pull suddenly started out of nowhere. There was no PCE, no EE, no indication of it happening. I felt good and harmles, but alert. My thoughts were very clean and clear at that time.

BTW :
It would be cool if people who encountered this situation could share their experiances so we can compare notes. It could also be very beneficial for potential readers. I don’t know if this helps anyone, but I think it can at least take away some fear of the event. I remember beeing quite fearful or respectful towards oblivion, death, extinction etc.
Even reading such a word made me feel shaky. There is still a certain “respect” because of it’s magnitude, but it’s far from fear or anything like it - it was friendly.
An exceptionally fun ride for sure.

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how good it is that you wrote all of this , even though I was saying in general that you are close to self-immolation , it is been several minutes now that i have been reading and reading your post for several times , i even read it out loud …the whole event is so thrilling , even for me

even though i have read srinath and jeofrry 's report , but i wanted to know more about this happening and even i had question that why it starts and why it stops ?

i cant believe that this is something from outside totally , this pull from outside , this is indeed very exciting .

you wrote two times in your writings that you were very alert …this is really helpful Elgin …whatever you write is very helpful… i wish you could come more to the Forum …
you said it may start suddenly and is very energizing is good to know …

i have this question as well …

you wrote this Elgin , and it shows that you had experienced empathy to a heightened degree = near actual caring or – hence acutely-empathic. ? which Richard says it is a valuable tool, that assisted him in his movement forward.

what second factor needed to be activated ?
do you mean this :
Alan :
As has already been stated, altruism (for an actualist) is not a volitional action and is only required/happens at the pivotal moment of becoming actually free. One cannot feel altruistic.???

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I really find it very interesting and useful.

I don’t know if many people have experienced something similar without ending up in self-immolation, and without having been in PCE or EE at the time… so maybe @Srinath and @geoffrey can help you to analyze the experience retrospectively, and maybe to prepare you differently for a future one.

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Hmm I think I’m a bit lost. Is this experience of the “phase of self-immolation” the one in this post? Elgin's Journal - #25 by Elgin . Or is it a different one? It sounds like you’re referring to something you already wrote about but I couldn’t see anything like it in this thread.

And a naive question… how do you know you experienced the “phase of self-immolation” if you didn’t self-immolate?

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he said he wrote that in his personal journal …
i told Elgin that i feel like he is very close to self immolation. but he thought i say this because of his recent post 25 …he misunderstood me …but it was really good , because it made him write his getting close to
self immolation before …

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i edited my last writing …

it is 2:24 AM in Germany .Elgin is sleep …i wish we could go and wake him up … :smiley:
i am thinking how we could get him to come here everyday …

The best answer I can come up with is that it was a combination of several factors which lead to it. The most prominent one put simply:

If you would ask me back then if I wanted to die, the answer would be an immidate: YES!
When I ask myself today and I’m as sincere as I can be, the answer would be:… Yes, sure.
There would be little gap, a little pause, a little something between the question and the answer. What is missing is the utter urgency and the seeing of the fact that I must die. The “problem” it seems is that I’m quite comfortable with my situation. Even if things happen I just know that I will be back to good soon. I’m quite good at feeling good for long periods of time. It seems I can’t create this sense of emergency on my own. When I try it feels inauthentic, insincere, like I’m trying to persuade myself.

I don’t know. I was speculating and had many, many theories about it. It seemed like I was completely unable to influence that event. Like it was happening in a dimension I have no access to whatsoever. So I guessed it must be factor outsite as well.

This would be perfect. If you guys can at some point spare some time I would appreciate it very much.

I indeed thought I mentioned it already.
It was a response to the different situations of an inside and outside event as I experianced it.

Well, that is the million dollar question. How do you know? How do you know your in a PCE, an EE? You just know. There might be deviations between PCE, ASC, EE, but it’s unmistakable that an ASC in general is happening. There is the experiance itself, the indicators, your knowledge about them. In the phase of self-immolation it is even clearer. It’s just obvious. Everything I know from Richard’s writings was applying here, everything. Just not the cycling nature of the pull I experianced. I thought that this was my definite end, finished. But it ceased again. Hence my confusion back then and today. There might always be a chance of delusion, but it couldn’t get more obvious then that. There is just this sense of “Ok, it happens!”

Did you experiance anything like it? What would you suggest? Any ideas or theories?
I’m very interested in whatever can share light on that experiance.

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@elgin

I don’t think I’ve welcomed you to the forum yet. So… welcome! And thank you for the quality of your contributions here.

About your missed ‘opportunity’…

Usually people underestimate the ‘pull’ that is necessary to self-immolate, they read something like “you have to want it like you’ve never wanted anything in your life before” and figure that what is needed is a tremendous ‘push’. So they go for it with all the will they can muster, all tense and with furrowed eyebrows, trying everything they can think of, thinking that they just need one second of success, one opportunity at the psychic gun trigger, one tremendous act of will… and either nothing happens, or most usually an ASC. ‘I’ was, for a long time, a big culprit of that attitude. I described it as running towards a wall and hitting my head, again, and again… I just had to run faster, I thought, hit the wall harder, and the wall would break. “You think I can’t do it eh, watch me!”

It seems that you’re not committing that mistake. Your description of the ‘pull’ sounds good to me. It might very well be that you’ve indeed had a ‘window’ there. But it might be that you’re underestimating the ‘push’ that is needed. Let me be clear, I’m not talking about some ‘act of will’ of the “tense and with furrowed eyebrows” kind, I’m talking about the “wanting it 100%”, the “going for it”, the “not giving up until it’s done”. In the same spirit of ‘daring’ that must have been present in your actualism for you to reach such a point.

In Craig’s report, you might remember he had decided to self-immolate during his lunch break, that day. But the lunch break was coming to an end, and it hadn’t happened. He came back to his office. How easily could he have been pondering what was ‘missing’, what he had done wrong, how easily he could have given up, content (and somewhat relieved) to have been ‘close’. But he wasn’t ready to give up. So he went for it with all he had, again, right there on his office chair. And it happened.

In my report, you might remember that at one point, in the wood, I saw the ‘veil’. There was an ‘opportunity’ there (and I seem to remember that Richard talks about such missed ‘opportunities’ of that kind). But there was “last second resistance” and the window closed. After, while coming back home, there was a gentle slope I could have taken, a quite definite tendency appeared to ponder on the missed opportunity, to start making theories on what was missing, to put things to rest until ‘next time’, with some relief. But I wasn’t giving up. I definitely wasn’t giving up. And it’s at that point that what might be called the activation of altruism came into play, and that it happened.

To be clear, the ‘pull’ is absolutely fundamental. People’s tendency (‘their’ tendency) to underestimate it is why it definitely has to be overemphasized. There has to be a connexion to pure intent of such a 'bandwidth" that the actual has to be right there, plain obvious and resplendent. But then it has to be allowed. It’s not just about waiting for it to do its thing. One might think that, of course, one wants it 100%, that it’s a given, and just sit and wait for that something ‘outside’ to do its thing - but there is in that attitude a hope that it won’t, a contentment with getting close (“am I not a good actualist, look how close that was!”) that you might see as quite obvious, if you look for it with sincerity.

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I have experienced a strong pull at times, though not as intensely as you describe here. Or maybe it was and I forgot lol. I experienced it like a “sweet spot” (as in a Goldilocks zone) of pushing/pulling.

If I’m out of the zone and I push too much then I don’t get anywhere, it’s me pushing me and I fall in on myself — I finally realized this won’t really work about 2 years ago but I did it a lot leading up to that.

If I don’t push enough then nothing happens of course.

But when I’m in the zone it’s as if a “new” kind of “pushing” is obviously available. And it isn’t really pushing. But it is really really going for it with all my intent and energy. And in the zone it works! There is a far-out-of-the-ordinary level of things happening, getting ‘sucked’ in towards actuality more and more. Haha now that I describe it it sounds similar.

For me so far it has similarly fizzled out. Usually I hit a wall of a new issue or objection and then I step back, then I have to figure it out. Interestingly the usual objections are blown past and sincerely obliterated quite quickly. But then there’s a sticky one which doesn’t get blown away… and that’s the thing to look at.

Other times I think it fizzles from just a lack of willingness to go further. It’s like “oh wait this would actually work”… and then I hesitate.

I have had the experience a few times of having had a ‘window’ of self-immolation. It’s like oh I could just go there… but I don’t! I don’t know if they were “genuine” windows, but it was my experience of it. The actually free seem to agree that it can happen at any time.

And there was one time where I actually felt ‘my’ center shift downwards and I experienced it like ‘I’ was going away at last … … and then I pulled back!!! So I wasn’t ‘ready’ then, in hindsight :smile:.

As for right now it seems I’m in a similar boat. I’m not ‘dissatisfied’ enough to get off my laurels. But by dissatisfied I don’t mean miserable… I don’t think being miserable is the best sort of motivation per se. And that would mean you have to be miserable before you can enjoy and appreciate ‘more’ lol. Which isn’t the case. But I seem to be lacking a sort of impetus to get closer. Life is generally quite good though. The key seems to be of course that the PCE is infinitely better. But the constant daily butting up against myself and others , the friction of being a feeling-being interacting with other feeling-beings, is actually a pretty good motivator to do something, keep being more sincere and more happy and harmless.

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Thinking about it a bit more this must only be part of it. Cause all else being equal it’s obvious that doing the better thing is better. It’s easy to buy the higher quality coffee than the worse quality one lol. So there is something or somethings (or some one :wink: ) preventing the simple / obvious choice.

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James: I can relate to this. I feel good for long periods of time and there is no sense of urgency to self - immolate. I have never wanted it like a drowning man wants air.

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Richard: … one has to want it like one has never wanted anything else before … so much so that all the instinctual passionate energy of desire, normally frittered away on petty desires, is fuelling and impelling/propelling one into this thing and this thing only (‘impelling’ as in a pulling from the front and ‘propelling’ as in being pushed from behind). There is a ‘must’ to it (one must do it/it must happen) and a ‘will’ to it (one will do it/it will happen) and one is both driven and drawn until there is an inevitability that sets in. Now it is unstoppable and all the above ceases of its own accord …one is unable to distinguish between ‘me’ doing it and it happening to ‘me’.
One has escaped one’s fate and achieved one’s destiny.

To this one might add that the other instinctual passions are also at play in the lead-up to the event. For if one is to go for it whole, then it’s not only the instinctual passion of desire that is fueling this approach, but also those of fear (in the form of thrill), of nurture, and of aggression (as daring, and even some kind of ‘recklessness’, which I was outlining in my post above).

To further exemplify this last point, consider the scope of what is to be done, and the daring involved in going for it.

Richard: To put it into a physical analogy, it was as if I were to gather up my meagre belongings, eradicate all marks of my stay on the island, and paddle away over the horizon, all the while not knowing whence I go … and vanish without a trace, never to be seen again.

Geoffrey: I would indeed gladly die right now, gladly give away all I am, all I ever was, all I’ve done and felt since I was born

Srinath: I would need to truly die. The enormity of this dawned on me suddenly like it never had before. The enormity of what I had to give up. It took my breath away.

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Maybe you will find useful the reflections and suggestion made by @Srinath to a similar comment I made, although it is good to keep in mind the full context (which you can find in Virtual Freedom vs. Rapid Method - #5 by Miguel) and that for your case his suggestions could be different:

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I would give this a heart or an emoji but it seems inadequate :smiley: . And then posting this message saying that, seems “pretentious” lol. But here it is anyway :upside_down_face:

Thank you everyone for all your contribution. There is so much to take in for the moment. I will need some time to reflect on all this and to respond adequately when I have more time for it.

This is the thing which is standing out to me in the moment. It resonated strongly with me. It hit something. I need to look deeply into this. I realize now that I have begun to “persuade” myself that the “force” is out there reaching me when I’m ready. I see now this will not happen just by itself. I was indeed “hoping”.

Again, thank you.

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HI Elgin, as noted by geoffrey, your contributions here are very valuable.
So keep posting and talk about any and all issues that is related to Actual Freedom application
of the method. Every bit of your writing and others in this forum, brings up new insight and
new question for all of us.

With regards to your “missed opportunity”, I was thinking ( probably I am ways off the mark);
could it have something to do with you being “honorable”. Maybe you would feel guilty to leave humanity and abandon it ( that may seem like a dishonorable thing to do ) ???

BTW:
Your wonderful reply to me about "having intend … " and investigation and Eaatmoba, has
been very helpful, thank you Elgin.

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