Chrono's Journal

Journals
121

Part Two

CrossChrono: Another clue that stuck out for me was the word ‘unilateral’. Richard writes that only unilateral action will do the trick. That means it is not dependent on others. I had the fear that I would lose my partner if I chose to just feel good. But thru the few times that I have chosen to be that way with her, it definitely was better in every way. In being that way, there was a freedom that love could never grant. I did not experience her thru my insecurities or other fears. She is a free person and another individual. Unlike love, this is a free intimacy and nothing like what my fears intuited it to be. In fact, I think love is a bondage and yet another way of being in thrall. Even writing that, I can feel Humanity shaking its finger at me.

Yes, acting unilaterally is a very important clue. Richard reports when ‘he’ first realized that nobody was in charge of the world.

Richard: I saw with a starkly-staring clarity how no one knew what was going on and – most importantly – how no one was ‘in charge’ of the world (unlike childhood schools where the headmaster or headmistress in charge is the ultimate preventative of playground fights going out-of-control lethal). There was nobody to ‘save’ the human race insofar as all gods and goddesses were but a figment of febrile imagination. (Richard, Personal webpage)

Hence you can do with your life as you choose (as long as you obey the local laws and social protocol) and it depends on every person’s unilateral action to bring about peace-on-earth. It does not require the cooperation of a single person … let alone “Humanity”. So whenever “Humanity” is “shaking its finger at me” you know you are on the right track. :blush:

Richard: If you have followed what I have written so far, you will see it is a question of attitude, predilection, disposition and intent, because one can bring about a benediction from that perfection and purity which is the essential character of the universe by contacting and cultivating one’s original state of naiveté. Naiveté, as I have said, is that intimate aspect of oneself that is the nearest approximation that one can have of actual innocence – there is no innocence so long as there is a self – and constant awareness of naive intimacy results in a continuing benediction. This blessing allows a connection to be made between oneself and the perfection and purity of the infinitude of this physical universe. To reiterate: this connection I call pure intent. Pure intent endows one with the ability to operate and function safely in society without the incumbent social identity with its ever-vigilant conscience. Thus reliably rendered virtually innocent and relatively harmless by the benefaction of the perfection and purity, one can begin to dismantle the now-redundant social identity.

To unilaterally relinquish one’s esteemed identity is to go in the face of all received wisdom. Any psychiatrist would readily advise against such a foolish move – they will state that one would fall into a condition of mental and emotional ill-health. They would diagnose that one is likely to suffer from a severe mental disorder – probably ‘Depersonalisation’ and ‘Derealisation’ – with its accompanying anxiety and panic attacks, resulting in the prescribing of anti-psychotropic medication and prolonged psychological counselling. To ‘lose one’s identity’ and to ‘lose contact with reality’ is considered a very serious psychiatric illness indeed. So one must proceed carefully – with the indispensable aid of pure intent – in order to dismantle, step by step, one’s accrued identity and reality. (Richard, List A, No. 26)

CrossChrono: Then realizations had been hitting me back and forth for a bit. One thing that just smacked me in the face was like ‘all I have to do is feel good’. And this is easy. Whatever comes, I will do it feeling good. So I decided that I would not think about anything or do anything unless I was feeling good. This worked for quite a few days. I had the longest stretch of feeling good that I’ve ever experienced in a long time. Right around at the beginning of this I had another realization about being alive. It actually caught me by surprise. I was taking a shower and I became aware instantly that this entire time it has been this moment. It sounds like almost mundane. But quite literally, this entire time (forever) it has only been this moment. Even as I am writing this the implications of this are churning in my mind. All the ‘past’, ‘present’, and ‘future’ don’t have an actual existence. When I realized this, I became fascinated and I felt even more good automatically. So much safety and security in this moment. What a relief that only this moment exists. And another realization came some time after this one. Only I as this body can know that this moment exists. This one has been simmering for a little while longer. I am allowing it to gestate. There were a few other stand out experiences of perhaps a similar nature. […]

This is a serendipitous insight – only this flesh-and-blood body “can know that this moment exists”, and that now is the only moment you can actually experience. And given that this is the only moment you can actually experience, any time spent feeling bad is a waste of this precious actual moment. And with this experience comes the insight that there is “so much safety and security in this moment” – it is truly magical.

Remember those valuable insights – they need actualizing for them to take effect in your life.

Cheers Vineeto

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Part Three

CrossChrono: I also had some insight into authority. I’ve been seeing that very clearly that no one has any idea what they are doing in regards to living happily and harmlessly. I had been reading up on social identity and saw that there’s a semblance of peace in the world but not actual peace. No one was acknowledging the root cause of why there has not been any peace in the world. They are doing anything but addressing it (the same as I had been). So there is a widespread insincerity. Everyone is playing pretend and I also had internalized this and pretended like everyone else. By choosing to feel good irregardless of circumstances, I sometimes feel I am standing up to all of Humanity. How dare I feel good while the world suffers (or something like that)? Yet I feel more authentic when I am feeling good than at any other time. It’s the doubt casted by my internalizing of Humanity’s many ways of being that pull me back every time. By choosing to be how Humanity is, I give up being authentic. Now I see all of this is because Humanity has not actually addressed the root cause of there not being any peace.

It’s excellent that you more and more recognize the insincerity in ‘humanity’s’ morals and ethics because that will let you it shrug off more easily when you feel that ‘humanity’ is shaking its finger at you. There really is no such thing as humanity, it is a collectively felt phantom – there are only flesh-and-blood human beings (albeit all subject to instinctual passions and the identity formed thereof). As such the feeling that humanity is pulling you back is felt as real (as in you should obey the moral and ethical rules) but it is not actual. “Humanity has not actually addressed the root cause of there not being any peace” because it cannot – only individuals humans can do that – and it is delicious to slip out from under ‘humanity’s’ internalized yoke and devote one’s life to something really worth-while that can result in the perfection of actuality becoming apparent.

CrossChrono: So I had a unique experience after that. Unique because I had not experienced something like it before. So seeing as how Humanity does not know what it is doing, were there any real rules? Could I just become actually free if I wanted to? I had been contemplating this at home and then when I was at work as well. It was a particularly slow day at work so I just reflected on it more. As I was feeling somewhere between neutral to good at the time, I thought of this moment and how it has been this moment this whole time. I became aware of a ‘bigness’ or immensity. Not quite sure of how else to describe it. It grew and it was as if my awareness was drifting into outer space without any central focus. My normal way of being I’d describe as ‘indolent’ in the sense of I stayed the same fundamentally. But now I was electrified, invigorated, and exhilarated. It felt like something was performing surgery in my head. As awareness ‘grew’, I saw all of ‘me’ as a point and felt the sensation of it at my navel area. It reminded me of the ‘pale blue dot’. Except all of me was this pale blue dot. I felt all of sorrow and was on the verge of tears but the tears would not come. I’m not quite sure why after that, but I came back down to earth. I was back to normal and felt kind of frustrated after that. I felt frustrated that I couldn’t allow it to proceed further. The following days I allowed myself to slip below neutral. Then I once again gathered sufficient intent to feel good again. […]

To me it sounds like a description of having made a connection with pure intent. The contrast to being normal can be quite overwhelming so your pulling back is a natural reaction. Let this awareness grow again via fascinated attention and reflective contemplation all the way to apperceptive awareness.

Richard: Apperceptive awareness can be evoked by paying exclusive attention to being fully alive right now. This moment is your only moment of being alive … one is never alive at any other time than now. And, wherever you are, one is always here … even if you start walking over to ‘there’, along the way to ‘there’ you are always here … and when you arrive ‘there’, it too is here. Thus attention becomes a fascination with the fact that one is always here … and it is already now. Fascination leads to reflective contemplation. As one is already here, and it is always now … then one has arrived before one starts. The potent combination of attention, fascination, reflection and contemplation produces apperception, which happens when the mind becomes aware of itself. (Library, Topics, Apperception)

What an exciting adventure it is to be on the wide and wondrous path to an actual freedom.

I really enjoyed your whole report.

Cheers Vineeto

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Oh my… this has began to click recently that my whole journey ‘I’ had made sudorific in one way or another. It was all ‘I’ knew to do, “go hard or go home” even when it is supposed to be easy! :laughing:
I think I could teleport back in time to impart this information on ‘myself’ and still it would go in one ear and come out the other.
How could allowing ‘myself’ to feel good each moment again for the rest of ‘my’ life be hard or sudorific? What silliness haha.
‘I’ was on a very serious mission to slay dragons and complete all sorts of very sudorific quests because that was all ‘I’ knew to do.
It’s interesting that the actualism method can seem so difficult and yet isn’t living in the real world so very difficult? The suffering that each denizen of the real world manages to get through daily is legendary, it really is impressive. How could removing that boulder off one’s back and simply enjoying and appreciating be hard in comparison?

And I can see now that each human being has the capacity to succeed with the method, because what they get through on the daily is already way harder. The success with the method comes from locating and walking down the path which delivers the goods, not in being even more sudorific. Richard succeeded and was exceptional because of his ability to locate this unknown/unwalked path and being naive enough to proceed down it unilaterally.

It really is like all of ‘humanity’ is walking down this straight and narrow path. It is a very difficult and painful path and yet they trudge on, day in day out. Someone eventually discovers this other path, an unmarked and unwalked path of freedom and gaiety. Of course they plant a flag and wave down to their fellow human beings, inviting them to join where it is all so easy. And yet something compels everyone to put that boulder right back onto the shoulders and continue on the straight and narrow, labelling the other way as “too dangerous”, “too difficult” etc. Perhaps to the denizens of the real world who are so conditioned to daily suffering it seems like the path of freedom and gaiety could not work specifically because it is too easy, therefore it is not worth investing one’s time in (apparently). It is a self-imposed suffering after-all, yet it is completely unnecessary.

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Vineeto: To have sincere intent is vital. I noticed an aspect in your report is about control, ‘me’ controlling ‘me’ to move into the direction ‘I’ think is right – and that approach is sudorific, at best. Even though the ingredient may be right, the outcome is still a serious enterprise of ‘you’ forcing yourself to be in a particular way.

Kuba: Oh my… this has began to click recently that my whole journey ‘I’ had made sudorific in one way or another. It was all ‘I’ knew to do, “go hard or go home” even when it is supposed to be easy!
How could allowing ‘myself’ to feel good each moment again for the rest of ‘my’ life be hard or sudorific? What silliness haha.
‘I’ was on a very serious mission to slay dragons and complete all sorts of very sudorific quests because that was all ‘I’ knew to do.
It’s interesting that the actualism method can seem so difficult and yet isn’t living in the real world so very difficult? The suffering that each denizen of the real world manages to get through daily is legendary, it really is impressive. How could removing that boulder off one’s back and simply enjoying and appreciating be hard in comparison? (link)

Hi Kuba,

Brilliant.

I can’t help by what you just said be reminded of the Cognitive Dissonance Theory – such behaviour is not only as old as each human being slightly or more severely afflicted by it – it is as old and atavistic as humanity itself. No wonder it’s so difficult to overcome and to even consider that enjoying oneself and appreciating being alive could improve one’s life.

Richard: Cognitive Dissonance Theory:
• [Richard (based on several web sources)]: The ‘cognitive dissonance theory’ suggests that when experiences or information contradicts existing knowledge, attitudes, beliefs or feelings, differing degrees of mental-emotional distress is the habitual result. The distressed personality is predisposed to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. Concurrent with this falsification, core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping discernment and memory … such people are prone to misinterpret cues and ‘remember’ things to be as they wish they had happened instead of how they actually happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes, while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures.

However it is more than merely a foolish head-in-the-sand psychological aberration, because the new, the fresh, the novel is oft-times met with determined resistance, disagreement, opposition and hostility. Indeed, the record of history shows many an occasion where someone who dared to question conventional beliefs was tortured, stoned, rent asunder, burnt at the stake, or otherwise horrifically put to death. (additional link in original).

It is difficult to comprehend the extent and depth of the brutal ignorance and downright stupidity required of the great mass of people who, unable to grasp innovative things that were to their own advantage, fought to retain the existing mind-set which was inimical to their welfare. It is the strangest of incongruities in regards to human pertinacity that peoples will invent reasons and struggle to maintain a state of affairs that is detrimental to their own advancement … even those conditions which enslave them.

The scientific method has evolved, in a large part, to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to such self-justifying yet erroneous conclusions. (Richard, Abditorium, Cognitive Dissonance).

Cheers Vineeto

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Wow this is exactly the reaction I had just now reading the first quoted paragraph, the extent and depth of the madness that would have people burnt at the stake for proposing that which was to everybody’s benefit. That ‘humanity’ is so addicted to remaining in existence (and therefore unchanged) that it would torture and murder at the worst or castigate and ostracise at the best those who offer an aid to ‘humanity’s’ self-imposed suffering.
It is really bizzare and a neat example is how people still fight against the modern way of living in it’s many expressions, viewing it as some kind of perversion. That it’s not beneficial apparently to live in a warm house, with easy provisions and a host of entertainment, that somehow it be good for us to be back in the forest eeking out an animal like existence.

This belief that suffering is good for one, what a persistent and utterly rotten belief. And yet isn’t it exactly what is at core of this insistence on making everything so damn sudorific. “If ‘I’ am suffering then something good must be happening”.

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Richard: It is difficult to comprehend the extent and depth of the brutal ignorance and downright stupidity required of the great mass of people who, unable to grasp innovative things that were to their own advantage, fought to retain the existing mind-set which was inimical to their welfare.

Kuba: Wow this is exactly the reaction I had just now reading the first quoted paragraph, the extent and depth of the madness that would have people burnt at the stake for proposing that which was to everybody’s benefit. That ‘humanity’ is so addicted to remaining in existence (and therefore unchanged) that it would torture and murder at the worst or castigate and ostracise at the best those who offer an aid to ‘humanity’s’ self-imposed suffering.
It is really bizarre and a neat example is how people still fight against the modern way of living in it’s many expressions, viewing it as some kind of perversion. That it’s not beneficial apparently to live in a warm house, with easy provisions and a host of entertainment, that somehow it be good for us to be back in the forest eeking out an animal like existence.

This belief that suffering is good for one, what a persistent and utterly rotten belief. And yet isn’t it exactly what is at core of this insistence on making everything so damn sudorific. “If ‘I’ am suffering then something good must be happening”. (link)

Hi Kuba,

Richard always maintained that the flow-on effect of what we are seeing today as our standard morals, ethics and principles how to live life comes from the dead enlightened masters and saints of a 3000-5000-year history of humanity. It took a while time for ‘Vineeto’ to wrap ‘her’ mind around it. And yet I can see it happening – for instance suffering is good for you – this is not only the Christian ethic but valid all over the world. The Buddhist motto – diagnosis: life is suffering – solution: avoid being born. All cultures believe that happiness is only achievable after physical death.

Peter: Nobody believes that it is possible to be completely and irrevocably happy and harmless in the world as-it-is, on earth, here, now, as a flesh and blood body. This belief is, after all, the core of Ancient Wisdom – the sacred and inviolate centre-piece of the Human Condition – that life is a ‘growth’ experience based on suffering.

Richard: I cannot stress enough how, with a virtual freedom being more or less the norm worldwide, global amity and equity would be an on-going state of affairs. (Library, Topics, Virtual Freedom)

It’s up to each of us, one by one, to change the norm. It’s a wondrous and worthwhile enterprise.

Cheers Vineeto

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Ah this is so much fun, yes I have often contemplated the very same thing. Indeed the ‘mould’ that they set in place back then is as if the very outline of reality, the rules of the game.

And this one also! I have often wondered about something that is called these days a “growth mindset”, it’s a very popular ideology these days. I see it in a lot of high achievers, and for sure it was something that I was subject to for a long time. It could be summarised by this idiom in martial arts that a fighter trains for a competition and a martial artist trains for a lifetime, they are on an “endless path of self improvement”, never perfect but always striving to be better. It’s funny that the proponents of this creed see themselves as modern day samurais which of course gives a clue as to where this wisdom came from.

In this view of life there is never enjoyment and appreciation of this moment of being alive as each moment is merely an opportunity to progress towards something that can never be reached. And of course from this viewpoint anything that does not serve that ultimate (unreachable) goal is seen as a waste of time, enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive is then also a waste of time.

It’s funny that this “growth midnset” initially enjoyed a revival in popular culture and then lately it started to become a caricature with a new name of “grind mindset”. Where people clocked onto the silliness of what was being demonstrated, the next influencer with the 20 step guide on how to start your morning and how to measure this and that variable for ‘optimum performance’, that this is a life wasted in always pursuing something for the sake of the chase and nothing more, all very serious and sudorific also.
It is fascinating that these values simply flow from those spiritual values set up “back then”. It’s also fascinating that Richard was able to locate these new and genuine values which originate from the perfection and purity of the actual world.

What Peter wrote really hit’s bullseye with regards to the outlines of my identity - “that life is a ‘growth’ experience based on suffering”. This is ‘me’ as the high achiever, finding meaning in endless strenuous challenges. Unable to unreservedly place enjoyment and appreciation as the number 1 thing to be done. So it makes sense that I would make this ultimate achievement (actual freedom) into a sudorific challenge for ‘me’.
Accepting that it is easy and also that it will actually happen now (hence no more pursuit) is to put ‘myself’ out of business. Yet this is already happening and has been the past couple of days. I can no longer proceed in the difficult direction, I know it is a dead end. Now it is just the case of proceeding towards this new way of living known as actual freedom.

@cross.chrono Let me know if you’d rather I move this to my journal.

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Vineeto: Richard always maintained that the flow-on effect of what we are seeing today as our standard morals, ethics and principles how to live life comes from the dead enlightened masters and saints of a 3000-5000-year history of humanity.

Kuba: Ah this is so much fun, yes I have often contemplated the very same thing. Indeed the ‘mould’ that they set in place back then is as if the very outline of reality, the rules of the game.

Hi Kuba,

Yes, it is fun to discover and recognize the pattern and how much everyone’s lifestyle, values, principles and values matches it exactly. That is the only way not to be a slave to it any longer.

Peter: Nobody believes that it is possible to be completely and irrevocably happy and harmless in the world as-it-is, on earth, here, now, as a flesh and blood body. This belief is, after all, the core of Ancient Wisdom – the sacred and inviolate centre-piece of the Human Condition – that life is a ‘growth’ experience based on suffering.

Kuba: And this one also! I have often wondered about something that is called these days a “growth mindset”, it’s a very popular ideology these days. I see it in a lot of high achievers, and for sure it was something that I was subject to for a long time. It could be summarised by this idiom in martial arts that a fighter trains for a competition and a martial artist trains for a lifetime, they are on an “endless path of self improvement”, never perfect but always striving to be better. It’s funny that the proponents of this creed see themselves as modern day samurais which of course gives a clue as to where this wisdom came from. […]

This “growth mindset” as you describe it, is nothing new, it is very very old, it only has a new shiny wrapper. The aim is to always improve but never arrive. It made sense in the early days of humanity when people had to work hard to make a living and feed their children – now in an affluent society the goals and values stay the same but make no sense whatsoever.

In its own way, the sacred value of love is one of best examples of this “never perfect but always striving” set-up. Because it is the identity’s substitute for the actual benevolence, for actual caring and actual intimacy of actual freedom, and as such as fake as the identity itself, love can only promise but never deliver and never satisfy.

Kuba: It is fascinating that these values simply flow from those spiritual values set up “back then”. It’s also fascinating that Richard was able to locate these new and genuine values which originate from the perfection and purity of the actual world.

I find it cute that you say “Richard was able to locate these new and genuine values” – ha, he did “locate” them in his PCEs, which many if not everyone experiences, but he was the only one who considered it possible and expedient enough to find a way to permanently live in the perfection and purity of the actual world.

Kuba: What Peter wrote really hit’s bullseye with regards to the outlines of my identity – “that life is a ‘growth’ experience based on suffering”. This is ‘me’ as the high achiever, finding meaning in endless strenuous challenges. Unable to unreservedly place enjoyment and appreciation as the number 1 thing to be done. So it makes sense that I would make this ultimate achievement (actual freedom) into a sudorific challenge for ‘me’.

Don’t be too hard on yourself, you have done very well – to arrive at this point where you know for a fact that no improvement of ‘me’ will ever allow ‘me’ to enter the actual world. That is the very end of the “sudorific challenge”, a taboo outcome for a ‘high achiever’, lol.

Kuba: Accepting that it is easy and also that it will actually happen now (hence no more pursuit) is to put ‘myself’ out of business. Yet this is already happening and has been the past couple of days. I can no longer proceed in the difficult direction, I know it is a dead end. Now it is just the case of proceeding towards this new way of living known as actual freedom. (link)

Ha, this is great to hear. Now you are ‘forced’ to enjoy and appreciate that life was meant to be easy. It will be tough to get used to that, won’t it!

Cheers Vineeto

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Yes haha, ‘forced’ by running out of any other possible alternatives and having no choice but to accept the fact. So I took the longest route possible but it for sure worked, ‘I’ no longer have a say in the matter.

Indeed, the last thing the ‘high achiever’ wanted to find out and yet ‘he’ gave ‘himself’ no other option but to eventually arrive at the facts.

I have so much appreciation for being able to talk like this and not just as idle discussion or “looking for problems to solve” because just as you mentioned in the past that peace on earth was your favourite subject I can now unreservedly say the same. And not just as a subject to be discussed but as an overarching goal in my life.

It was always there, buried underneath all these other values and pursuits.
There was always this intent to find a way for myself and my fellow human beings to live how the PCE demonstrated to be possible. Yet this intent was as if filtered through various lenses of ‘my’ identity.
As the ‘high achiever’ deep down ‘I’ wanted the same but knew of no other way. This ‘high achiever’ could only go so far though because ‘he’ had locked ‘himself’ apart from others by ‘his’ own quest.

As a ‘high achiever’ ‘I’ was in ‘my’ own ivory tower which means I could not be a fellow human being.
And it is a tricky position to be in, there was a certain severity that came about as a result of locking ‘myself’ away like so, ‘I’ had separated ‘myself’ from ‘my’ roots.

This ‘high achiever’ did well to get thus far, ‘he’ used what was already at hand but ‘he’ could never altruistically sacrifice ‘himself’ out of the ivory tower.
‘I’ proceed towards ‘my’ self-immolation so that I can be what I have been all along - a fellow human being.

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Thank you Vineeto for the pointers and encouraging response.

Yes this was my understanding as well but I had not been making any further headway in clearing it up completely so that it’s just second nature to not go in that direction. I thought maybe I just had to actively nip it in the bud and that perhaps it was a habitual action in going towards love. I’ve seen the underlying patterns too many times so I thought may be I was just being crazy to keep “investigating” it.

But this in particular caught my eye:

Perhaps I need to go further and ween myself as well. I had noticed that love and my relation to it plays into the male identity too. When I think about it, it feels like that to be successful in love also means being successful in society in general. Those who can outwardly show that they are succecssful in their relationships are seen as examplars of knowing the secret to living a happy life. And I think that coupled with the psychological authority set in place and built upon since childhood serves to create a persistent doubt that “they” know something that I don’t.

I also find interesting that in one of the articles posted by Richard that lust is also described as love (lust, attraction, attachment). But most often, it is the attraction and attachment parts that are described as love. Perhaps an attempt to separate out the ‘bad’ from the ‘good’. I feel lust and attraction more often than attachment. At one point I sat with lust and attraction and it became so strong that it seemed like an overpowering desire. In the middle it felt like it was more about sexual conquest than anything to do with caring for another person. I’ve had many occasions before when I am out at a social setting with a woman I liked that I was actually in a competition in the jungle with other men trying to “win” and be better so that I may prove myself worthy of being with this woman. Even further than that it seems like it’s about vying for status everywhere I go. And behind it all then must be this instinctual desire for power. When I felt it, it also made me a little embarassed that I had these feelings.

Another aspect that may be further compounding the suffering of love for me is perhaps related to all of this. It’s tied to the male identity. Basically, if I fail at love then it means I’m a failure of society in general. Putting all of this together then it seems like it’s about “winning” and conquest rather than about any sort of peace or intimacy. Then my partner also has her own identity of what it is to be a woman. Both of this male and female identity seem to be at odds with one another. It feels like then to abandon this male identity means to abandon how I relate with women as well. This leaves that feeling of loneliness and aloneness again.

Yes this sinking in is what I need to allow so that I never go down this road again.

It’s interesting that you do notice that control aspect in the report as it’s a problem that I know I have struggled with for a long time. I have a tendency to break myself into two with one “working on” the other. It feels like it’s the only way I can “do” anything. In the beginning, even looking at feelings created a split. ‘I’ would try to make myself feel something else and it would create really great discomfort that I could feel in my body. It also highlights a fundamental confusion within ‘me’.

I’ll keep this in mind and focus on it to see where it leads.

Haha I don’t mind the discussion at all. It’s very informative :slight_smile: .

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Vineeto: In order to successfully ‘nip in the bud’ it’s essential to have understood the underlying patterns of the occurring feelings you want to ‘nip’. Obviously there is still some remnant investment in love, which is not surprising, as it is considered the highly-prized cure-all for loneliness and the mess of the human condition in general.

Chrono: Yes this was my understanding as well but I had not been making any further headway in clearing it up completely so that it’s just second nature to not go in that direction. I thought maybe I just had to actively nip it in the bud and that perhaps it was a habitual action in going towards love. I’ve seen the underlying patterns too many times so I thought maybe I was just being crazy to keep “investigating” it.
But this in particular caught my eye:

Vineeto: Seeing this fact, thus abandoning the romantic dream, and reclaiming ‘her’ autonomy, was only the beginning of a longer process of weening ‘herself’ off the whole maze of female identity and man-woman relating in general.

Chrono: Perhaps I need to go further and ween myself as well. I had noticed that love and my relation to it plays into the male identity too. When I think about it, it feels like that to be successful in love also means being successful in society in general. Those who can outwardly show that they are successful in their relationships are seen as exemplars of knowing the secret to living a happy life. And I think that coupled with the psychological authority set in place and built upon since childhood serves to create a persistent doubt that “they” know something that I don’t.

Hi CrossChrono,

You are very welcome.

I see you already discovered more to understand love and man-woman relating from an additional aspect – the identity of being a ‘man’ in society’s eyes. This “persistent doubt” is nothing other than your social conditioning you have been subject to from an early age – of course you feel “that “they” know something that I don’t”.

However, if you look more closely at the individuals who make up ‘society’, it will become obvious to you that the ‘happy’ and “successful in their relationships” façade is just that. Just study women’s magazines, watch the news, observe your neighbours and workmates, and you find that what is presented in Hollywood movies is not the whole picture. Here, for instance, are ‘Peter’s’ observation from his Journal –

Peter: At this stage it may be useful to state my motives for writing. As I watch television, read newspapers, listen to people and observe the relationships of men and women around me, I see sorrow – sadness, melancholy, despair, resignation and the bitter-sweetness of love; and malice – vindictiveness, sarcasm, revenge, innuendo, gossip, jealousy, violence and hate. Nowhere do I see delight, contentment, satisfaction, benevolence, consensus and co-operation. Nor do I see any men and women living together in peace and harmony. So I thought my story could be useful to anyone who, like me, hadn’t given up yet, but who could see they had ‘nothing left to lose’ in trying something new. (Peter’s Journal, ‘Foreword’)

You can find more on this topic in Peter’s Selected Writings on Living Together. There are also some observations at this link.

The best way to explore this topic is by approaching it in a naïve way, by putting aside preconceived sophisticated ideas of what you should be like as a man or as a partner, and start exploring afresh what it is like to interact with a fellow human being who happens to be a female. You might even discover what you have in common and also what the “battle of the sexes”, the notion of a woman’s camp and a man’s camp, prevents you from finding out. With the sincere, and unilateral, intent to be happy and harmless a lot can be explored in a friendly fashion (which includes being friendly with yourself).

Chrono: I also find interesting that in one of the articles posted by Richard that lust is also described as love (lust, attraction, attachment). But most often, it is the attraction and attachment parts that are described as love. Perhaps an attempt to separate out the ‘bad’ from the ‘good’. I feel lust and attraction more often than attachment. At one point I sat with lust and attraction and it became so strong that it seemed like an overpowering desire. In the middle it felt like it was more about sexual conquest than anything to do with caring for another person. I’ve had many occasions before when I am out at a social setting with a woman I liked that I was actually in a competition in the jungle with other men trying to “win” and be better so that I may prove myself worthy of being with this woman. Even further than that it seems like it’s about vying for status everywhere I go. And behind it all then must be this instinctual desire for power. When I felt it, it also made me a little embarrassed that I had these feelings.

Ha, it’s not easy to admit that sexual desire is happening, neither socially nor privately, so it is more coyly labelled ‘attraction’ or ‘beauty’ or ‘appeal’. It is exactly as you describe it, the law of the “jungle” where the raw instinctual passions are dictating one’s feelings and behaviour. It is advantageous that you felt “a little embarrassed” – this is the very feeling which can open the door to naiveté. Try it out, it is delicious once you overcome your first hesitation to feeling a bit foolish.

Chrono: Another aspect that may be further compounding the suffering of love for me is perhaps related to all of this. It’s tied to the male identity. Basically, if I fail at love then it means I’m a failure of society in general. Putting all of this together then it seems like it’s about “winning” and conquest rather than about any sort of peace or intimacy. Then my partner also has her own identity of what it is to be a woman. Both of this male and female identity seem to be at odds with one another. It feels like then to abandon this male identity means to abandon how I relate with women as well. This leaves that feeling of loneliness and aloneness again. […]

Don’t give up so easily. It’s a fascinating adventure when one is involved in discovering the details of what makes up a man’s identity, and the more you discover the more it will fall away applying fascinated attention to those details. What remains is being more what you are, a fellow human being, and as I said to you before, I know from personal experience how much a woman can appreciate intimacy just as much as men do, even though she may not know that this is really what she is looking for when she says she wants love.

Vineeto: To have sincere intent is vital. I noticed an aspect in your report is about control, ‘me’ controlling ‘me’ to move into the direction ‘I’ think is right – and that approach is sudorific, at best. Even though the ingredient may be right, the outcome is still a serious enterprise of ‘you’ forcing yourself to be in a particular way.

Chrono: It’s interesting that you do notice that control aspect in the report as it’s a problem that I know I have struggled with for a long time. I have a tendency to break myself into two with one “working on” the other. It feels like it’s the only way I can “do” anything. In the beginning, even looking at feelings created a split. ‘I’ would try to make myself feel something else and it would create really great discomfort that I could feel in my body. It also highlights a fundamental confusion within ‘me’. (link)

Indeed, forcing or manipulating yourself to feel something you don’t feel is bound to fail. Recognize that ‘I’ am my feelings, in contrast to I have feelings which I want to control/ manoeuvre. Recognizing and acknowledging that you are your feelings you discover that you do have a choice to be felicitous and innocuous feelings (and naiveté). Also, do not attempt to investigate any problems or issues unless you are at least feeling good, if not better. Unless the actualism method is fun and easy, fascinating and adventurous, you are missing one or more of the above-mentioned vital ingredients, which can easily be corrected.

Cheers Vineeto

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