I find I’m under a lot of stress now and have been complaining a LOT.
I’ve started work in a new job in London and it’s a trainwreck with a lot of things wrong with it.
I’m unhappy going into work, and this is a rare for me.
I’m also not liking the oppressiveness of London, which is why anytime I’ve lived here, I’ve always lived near parks or rivers.
I’m enjoying interacting with patients, and colleagues and feeling appreciated by both.
There’s also moving home, relocating to a different city, going back to my old place every weekend to move stuff out, finding a new place, finding storage for my stuff, having to eliminate a lot of the old stuff, house search, viewings, and now paperwork, left my ID, information access, and driving license in India and its been lost in transit being posted back, so have to get all that again, and a fair few projects I’m chasing like a new business, editing second draft of my book, setting up a brand strategy, creating products, and all this whilst living out of suitcases in airbnbs.
I’ve turned into this whingey soul, and as I write that, I realise I’ve always been a whingey sort, complaining about everything. I might laugh in my complaining, so it doesn’t sound like that, but that indignation is an almost constant feeling.
Just fricking unhappy with the world and people around me.
I’m lucky that my normal baseline is a relative euphoria or ebullience, but this recently increased indignation and unhappiness with the world as it is, and people as they are is counterproductive and only harms myself.
I was looking at my past youtube comments, and almost all of them are indignant comments.
I looked up indignation - stresses righteous anger at what one considers unfair, mean, or shameful.
This self righteous anger at unfairness, incompetence and hypocrisy is probably a projection of my own unfairness, incompetence and hypocrisy.
And maybe I have to accept my own foibles as a first step towards accepting that in others.
It’s a bitter pill to swallow - my own incompetence, hypocrisy and unfairness and inconsistency in the way I treat and view others and myself.
Maybe compassion for my own self and others is a way out of this mess, as opposed to trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater and wholescale change my personality.
It’s okay to have flaws, and accept the shadow parts of me.
But maybe less complaining and more appreciation.
I’m in my favourite part of London, and moving into new digs with river views with a super cool flatmate, with steam, sauna, jacuzzi, gym, pool, clubhouse with bar, and super convenient transport links.
Signed up with a stylist, and getting a high end photoshoot organised for some dating profiles.
Completed the first draft of my book, and more at peace with myself and others than I’ve ever been.
Just appreciate the job that people are doing, the place I’m in that’s trying to do it’s best, and lucky to be in the job I am in.
So maybe less complaining.
I’ve always seen complaining and being unhappy with things as a positive, because it then means I’m driven to change things. But that’s getting into the resistance/change/contraction morass again.
How can I enjoy being alive. It’s not being pulled into the future, or the past, and just enjoying this moment.
That’s the most important job ahead of me, just enjoy now because that’s all there practically is.
And focus on the dozens of beautiful interactions that I have everyday, and the beautiful gifts I have been given.
I’m glad my answers were so helpful and appreciate the feedback!
With that in mind, I continue to answer here.
I know you don’t experience it as inconsistency. I know it because I went through a spiritual phase myself in which facts were not valued such that I too was able to believe simultaneously contradictory things with the scantest of reasons to do so.
Needless to say, I had to work my way out of it before I could have success with actualism.
Not at all. It requires a lot of cleverness and cunning - and as such, intelligence - to be able to pull off believing simultaneously contradictory things.
The issue more has to do with a lack of appreciation for facts and a lack of intent to stick to the facts, rather than a lack of intelligence.
In a similar vein, you might think I’m a simpleton who can’t understand or doesn’t appreciate the complexity or nuance of your position such as to comprehend that it isn’t in fact inconsistent/contradictory. However I do fully understand and appreciate[1] your position, and even though it doesn’t appear inconsistent to you – it is. Evaluating it in a simple and fact-based manner easily reveals it to be so. It’s only by adding layers of apparently-sophisticated complication that the simple (and correct) conclusion can be evaded.
Well you yourself said you do this so I only take you at your word for it: ”I just adopt [i.e. “choose”] a mindset or set of ultimately false beliefs [i.e. “whatever belief I can mock up”] that get me to a sense of non resistance and peace. [i.e. “to suit my fancy”].”
If you don’t in fact do this, then, don’t say that you do .
As a core part of actualism is dismantling beliefs then you are not gonna have much luck with it going as you are.
You even recognize this yourself — you said you “absolutely love the insights that keep coming [from “exploring AF in a deeper way”]” - such as “belief dismantling”. How do you expect you’re gonna be able to dismantle beliefs while you are simultaneously explicitly and willingly choosing to adopt new beliefs — not to mention ones that you yourself think are false!
Ha, we both know this is a false humility.
Firstly, if you were sincere that you don’t know anything then I can just reply to everything you say with “But you don’t really know that” and there would be no conversation we could have.
Secondly, you don’t really think you don’t know anything, else you wouldn’t so confidently write what you write and claim your position (that you supposedly “don’t know anything” about) is “consistent with the latest neuroscience, and the oldest spiritual traditions”.
Not only that but you also already claim you may be more successful with actualism than possibly everyone else on the forum! “[…] whilst I continue to live it’s core principles of happy and harmless, appreciating and enjoying this moment of being alive and genuine caring as best as I can. Which might be a lot more than other people on the forum might be doing.”
So in short, you can drop the pretense!
And yet the answer has been found, and it is as clear as day – and it is none other than what you experience in a PCE. But more about the PCE later.
Oh? Yet here I sit, typing on my keyboard, looking at my monitor. It is a fact that I am sitting here. It is a fact that this keyboard is in front of me. It is a fact that the keys are making the clackety-clack sounds they do as my fingers press upon them. It is a fact that the words are appearing on the screen in front of me, as if by magic. It is a fact that you are reading these words now (when you do see them).
There are many facts to be found, plainly visible for all to see. But if you are not interested in them of course you will never find them!
What if instead you looked for the actual facts that are actually the case, with all the sensibility you can muster, looking as sincerely as you possibly can?
Then you might have a shot at success!
As you scare-quoted the word ‘facts’ you are implying that you don’t really know that these things are facts – besides which stating above explicitly that you don’t really know anything – so there’s no need for me to reply. I’m only interested in what the actual facts are.
Before you reemphasize this again and repeat that you aren’t interested in “BF/AF” or “Basic Freedom” or “Actual Freedom”, I will cut this off here and now.
You clearly are, based on what you write here, as in you being “back on the AF website” for the purpose of “exploring AF in a deeper way”; as in you “lov[ing] the insights that keep coming” such as “happy and harmless” and “how am I appreciating and enjoying this moment of being alive” and “PCE’s” and “belief dismantling” and more (“etc etc”), all of which are “the places [you] would like to go”; as in wanting to “Just [be] a happy, harmless […] human being”; as in what “is for [you]” are “the enduring principles happy and harmless” and “appreciating and enjoying this moment of being alive” and “caring as a key part of the process”; as in it not being able to get “any simpler” than “really really lik[ing] enjoying and appreciating the present moment and feeling good” for you[2].
So your protestations to the contrary will not work on me .
Either you don’t realize you are interested in it all, in which case you will have to work on being sincere about such things, or you somehow believe that all of what I quoted here is not what actualism is about or that it doesn’t all stem from an actual freedom from the human condition or that the point of it all isn’t to become actually free from the human condition – in which case you are simply mistaken, and repeatedly stating it over and over again and trying to separate it out from actualism won’t make it true.
To expand on it further, you cannot separate out “appreciating and enjoying this moment of being alive” from actualism and actual freedom, as “appreciating and enjoying this moment of being alive”is what the actualism method is, and “appreciating and enjoying this moment of being alive”isthe goal as well. And attempting to separate them out is really nothing more than attempting to confuse and mislead yourself as well as others as to what it is that actualism and actual freedom really are – to take the words on the AFT site, with precise meaning given to terminology, and to distort them, tack them on to something else, make them out to mean something other than what they do, then present it back to yourself and other people as if it’s what actualism is ‘really’ about, the ‘good’ part separate from the rest, and thus lead the unsuspecting astray, away from a shot at the real deal.
And I say this from experience because it’s exactly what happened to me when I first came into contact with actualism – it had been taken and distorted and blurred beyond all recognition, and presented to me as a variant of Buddhism, and I bought it, and was following the “affers” such as Trent and Tarin down the wrong path, having been misled by them – until I was finally able to come to my senses.
Don’t do the same as they did. It is a disservice to others who will read your posts, and ultimately a disservice to yourself.
This is spiritually-rooted nonsense. A probably-millenia-old trope, recycled here yet again, of wanting to change somehow being a bad thing and something to be avoided to be able to succeed.
All it takes to dispel it is to recognize, sincerely, in yourself, that of course you want to change something – otherwise you wouldn’t be doing what you are doing, exploring what you are exploring, writing what you write, etc. Even aiming to get to a place of non-resistance – is in itself wanting to change something, i.e. from not being in a place of non-resistance, to being in a place of non-resistance.
It’s even in the Pali Canon itself that wanting to change is a useful thing, not something to be spurned!
So again, we can dispense with the pretense .
As you write you’ve had “multiple close to PCE experiences” , you are saying in effect that you haven’t had any actual PCEs.
And, not having had any PCEs, how can you know that you had something “close to” a PCE?
And I say this because the PCE is so completely unlike anything else I have experienced, that there’s no possible way that I would have known what a PCE was like before having had one. (This makes sense once you realize that a PCE is experiential and can only be known experientially.) All of the words I read before having had one, were not sufficient to describe it, because I simply didn’t know what they were referring to. They made sense as descriptions after the fact – but they don’t do it justice without one’s own experience to refer them to.
As such there is no way I was able to know what something “close to” a PCE is up until I actually had one. And this isn’t peculiar to me, but is the very nature of PCEs – by which I mean that there’s no way that you can know, either.
As you earlier said you “don’t know anything”, as in anything at all, then it shouldn’t be hard to accept this subset of not knowing just this particular thing .
Ehm… ok, but as you said PCE’s “might be a journey” as done “from a place of exploration”, that means you are clearly interested in experiencing something towards this direction of experiences again.
If you do indeed drop all the pretense and admit it to yourself that you’re interested in all this — then I would suggest not hanging your hat on anything that seems like it might potentially be close to a description you may remember that you might have read or heard somewhere of what a PCE could potentially be like. Have a high standard for a PCE. Have a solid, clear one, unambiguous what it is. Then you will really be able to see what actualism is all about.
Further, as you didn’t experience it in the first place, you don’t yet have the knowledge to know whether you want to experience it again . Don’t knock it 'till you try it.
As a hint: if the experience isn’t of something so totally novel and refreshing, so amazingly simple and pure, such as to render all ‘your’ past efforts apparently fruitless and redundant by comparison, together with an astounding recognition that the actual world exists, has existed all along, and will continue to exist forever, along with time and space itself clearly and palpably existing and being vastly still (as in unmoving, no past or future only an aeonian now), plus an undeniable purity laying all about, simply there available to be perenially enjoyed and appreciated, together with (if other people be present) a seeing the others as simply other fellow human beings without the usual separation between ‘you’ and ‘them’ – or at least some subset of these descriptors and others – then it is very unlikely to be a genuine PCE.
Ehm… if you are “more than happy to live with them” then why on earth are you interested in “practically using [Actual Freedom’s] principles” such as “happy and harmless” and “appreciating and enjoying this moment of being alive and genuine caring as best as I can” to “become a better human to myself and more than that, others”???
You realize that to be living in “ups and downs” is to be neither happy nor harmless? That to be swinging in life’s vicissitudes of “ups and downs” is to be neither appreciating nor enjoying this moment of being alive? Further that to be flowing with the “ups and downs” of life is to not be able to be genuinely caring to others? And that riding the “ups and downs” of life, just like the other billions of people on the planet already are, is to not be becoming a better human to yourself, and, more than that, to others?
Again you are being self-contradictory here:
If you are interested in being happy and harmless, then you are interested in reducing and smoothing over life’s ups and downs and replacing them with stability – namely, a stable happiness and harmlessness. Your protestations to the contrary don’t change this fact. Nor is it a ‘sin’ to want to change (and it wasn’t even a ‘sin’ in the original Buddhism before it was corrupted by later generations, as evidenced by the Pali Canon sutta!).
Contrapositively, if you are not interested in changing anything and you are happy to live with the “ups and downs” just like everybody already does by default — then you are not interested in practically employing the principles you wrote interest you, such as to be come happy and harmless and enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive.
There is simply no factual, sensible, rational, nor even logical way that it could be otherwise!
Simply put, you cannot both be content with the ups and downs and practically apply these principles to become more happy and harmless. All you can do is fool yourself into believing that you are somehow doing both – which it seems you’re doing a good job of so far .
Further, not even two hours later you wrote that you are “under a lot of stress now and have been complaining a LOT” and that you “started work in a new job in London and it’s a trainwreck with a lot of things wrong with it” and that you’re “unhappy going into work”. And by the end of the post you wrote “How can I enjoy being alive” and “That’s the most important job ahead of me, just enjoy now because that’s all there practically is.”.
So despite what you wrote that you are “happy to live with” the “ups and downs” — it seems that rather than being happy to be “unhappy going into work”, and happy to be “under a lot of stress now”, and happy to be “in a new job” that’s a “trainwreck” — you are not happy with this, not satisfied, not content with this, you do want to actually change it, to the point where you recognize it as “the most important job ahead of me”!
And I commend that you recognize it as the “most important job” – because indeed, what else is there to do, what other point to life, ultimately, than to be enjoying and appreciating this, the only moment, of being alive!
So what will it be? Will you continue to assert that you are happy with the ups and downs or are you gonna come to your senses and stop fooling yourself?
Erhm… speak for yourself. Upon what do you base this confident judgement?
Then you best stop here and cease looking into anything related to actualism or actual freedom – try and divorce it as you may from what it’s actually about – because to be successfully utilizing the actual principles that you yourself say you are interested in, is to be going down the path towards the ending of said feeling being!
So if you do want to keep being you precisely as you are now and you really don’t want to change anything – stop now, don’t proceed with actualism! Just continue down the enlightenment-path while also somehow not going down the enlightenment-path (i.e. doing the things that get one to enlightenment but simultaneously not wanting to change and not doing anything to go towards enlightenment). You will be in good company with the other millions+ of similarly-inclined spiritualists out there.
Cheers,
Claudiu
appreciate: “understand (a situation) fully; grasp the full implications of.” ↩︎
There is a lot of misconception here…I guess this kinda thing can happen when you’ve not perused the content of AFT
BF isn’t about releasing the ego-self…releasing ego-self is traditionally Enlightenment territory…BF is about the extinction of the feeling-being self…aka the rudimentary animal self one is born with…Colloquially speaking, we can call it the soul-self as well
I’m not sure where you found Actualism putting the soul and awareness together…
I’ve been away and wasn’t sure how to respond to Claudiu’s post, but maybe all I can say is it didn’t feel happy and harmless.
I’ve been working on the method i.e. appreciating and enjoying TMOBA, and it’s been a refreshingly freeing experience.
I thought I’m feeling great, and only source of stress in close relationships was repeating patterns and I looked to resolve them but that went down like a stone and I realised it goes back to Claudiu’s words of accepting the world as it is and people as they are.
And I realised about letting go of control and allowings things to flow and just enjoying This.
There was a particularly rude response to what I felt was an inoffensive first post, and now with Claudiu’s most recent post to me and I guess again, it’s not about seeking control or expectations and that the world and people around me will act as they will.
I thought come here, dont slate the method, be as humble and learn as much as possible, but nada.
It reminds me of me trying to apologise to my sister about something I said about her in front of her friends (years ago) i.e. that she’s a workaholic (something she would agree she is) but her point was not the word workaholic but that I shouldn’t have brought it up with her friends. i apologised for bringing it up with her friends, but she raised her voice and I said if you speak like that to me, I will reverse Uno you and she left hurling abuses. And looking back this appears ludicrous to me, responding with verbal abuse (she threw in a few attacks as she left) to a genuine heartfelt apology for the only thing she had said I had done to upset her in the last 10 years.
And I realised I was being the idiot for wanting to control circumstances or events. People will be however they are. Nothing would have happened if I hadn’t tried to bring it up with her.
And I find the answer is an analogy of the rigid conductor pressurising his musicians to play in the exact way he wants them to, and then realising that it’s about letting go of control and letting the music flow.
And even here, Claudiu said AF is not for you, you have to do it this way or not at all, etc etc. Very culty.
People have their own journeys and that should be respected. But if it’s not respected, that’s a-ok too, it’s the other person’s journey.
Another lesson was chatting with Srinath and saying I was being happy but didn’t have a problem with being harmful to people who I felt were trying to attack me. But even if I enjoyed being harmful, there was still a lingering sense of remorse and regret and even condemnation and resentment. And Srinath said yep, the harmless part is important or it affects the happiness part.
So letting go of control and getting a finer handle on the harmless bit appear to be themes coming up.
All the rest is just tools to facilitate precisely this ^.
As to our convo, the purpose in what I was writing was to assist you in precisely this, by encouraging you to be sincere in what you want and pointing out ways you may be impeding yourself from applying the method fully.
Maybe the best approach is to (continue to?) set it aside for now – I particularly suggest setting aside any conclusions you may have made about what was written – and when you have had more success with the method, re-read it again with this in mind and you may find it to be of more assistance.
Cheers,
Claudiu
P.S. I’ll leave with a parting thought:
This seems sensible on the face of it, but upon further consideration is not really so.
Consider an analogy, there’s a forum of car enthusiasts, sharing knowledge and insights on how to keep a car well-maintained, repair it, trivia about cars and anything related to cars, etc.
Now someone comes on the forum and says their car is malfunctioning, that they are very interested in repairing their car, but they are taking it to a florist to get it fixed, and learning from the florist how to maintain and repair their car, etc.
The forum-members reply, that’s not the way to repair your car, you should take it to a car repair person. The florist won’t be able to fix the car or show you how to do it.
Now if they replied:
And even here, you said car repair is not for you, you have to do it this way or not at all, etc etc. Very culty.
People have their own journeys and that should be respected. But if it’s not respected, that’s a-ok too, it’s the other person’s journey.
Would it make sense?
In other words what is the purpose of respecting someone’s journey to fix their car by going to the florist, when it won’t work?
Thanks. I’ve learnt a lot here, and I have an ever growing respect for the refreshing practicality of AF.
this is what it is all about.
I’m just sticking to practising this, and seeing what comes up.
As to our convo, the purpose in what I was writing was to assist you in precisely this, by encouraging you to be sincere in what you want and pointing out ways you may be impeding yourself from applying the method fully.
Your conversations with me were supremely useful, and really stopped me in my tracks.
I’m just left another repeating cycle and just fell into it - happy and harmless. What’s stopping me from feeling happy and harmless? Find repeating themes and control them. Find out there is no way to control circumstances or people.
Like you said I can’t change one perfect arrangement for another equally perfect arrangement.
And I have to accept the world as it is and people as they are.
But I fall into playing the Bub game and get hurt i.e. resistance (mainly to holding onto blame and condemnation, dont mind any of the other emotions) and it’s about not getting too close to the Bub fire to get burnt and just do enough i.e. responsibilites, but not play the identity game where it becomes harmful. And where does one decide that balance.
OR the answer (my florist in your analogy) of allowing however I show up in the world and how the world shows up for me.
Maybe the best approach is to (continue to?) set it aside for now – I particularly suggest setting aside any conclusions you may have made about what was written – and when you have had more success with the method, re-read it again with this in mind and you may find it to be of more assistance.
That’s the plan - I’ve always religously documented patterns specifically related to my AF journey on my journal here (though I have to be honest and say my knowledge is only based on limited reading, but I have been enjoying reading forum posts as they come to my email).
I will come back here and there will be nuggets galore I’m sure.
P.S. I’ll leave with a parting thought:
You were doing so well until here.
Absolutely bang on perfect.
Then it turns more than a tad ugly. I might be exagerrating.
I have some idea of what might come up, but also have a feeling it will might be surprising to even me, but let’s not waste any more time and let’s get down to it.
This seems sensible on the face of it, but upon further consideration is not really so.
Ahh, you charmer, you!
but they are taking it to a florist to get it fixed, and learning from the florist how to maintain and repair their car, etc.
The forum-members reply, that’s not the way to repair your car, you should take it to a car repair person. The florist won’t be able to fix the car or show you how to do it.
Definitely not my way or the highway culty at all.
There is one true God, and he is your’s of course.
Now if they replied:
In other words what is the purpose of respecting someone’s journey to fix their car by going to the florist, when it won’t work?
I see your grin, and am meeting it with a bigger grin as I write this.
Basic social skills 101, sunshine. People’s autonomy must be respected. Advance directives even trump mandatory legislations like mental health detentions.
The very purpose of respecting someone’s journey is just that. Respect. Autonomy and independence for their journey. A respect for a capacitous decision made in clear consciousness.
Even if it is unwise, like taking your car to a florist, one just can’t interfere with capacitous decisions.
–
Reflection:
I find this exchange absolutely fascinating and exhilarating and it mirrors the patterns I’ve been going through.
It feels to me like the universe has the poetic, magical way of communicating with the body-mind or feeling being.
My specific triggers with repeating cycles with family was:
Zabardasthi (hindi and urdu for forcefully, also slang for rape i.e. forceful insertion). Or less crassly, interfering with autonomy and independence saying you should or should not do xyz with yourself, your time or money. And giving me no choice about it.
This feels like it is exactly what happened.
I set boundaries i.e. please respect my journey, and be harmless, and there’s a nope, you must only do it this way. Our mechanics are the only people in the world who can fix your car.
And the response is a charming, why should I respect choices or journey as I can’t see the logic in your decision.
Its my way of the highway, cause my method and my car mechanics are the only game in town.
Interfering with autonomy and independence and giving me no choice about it (taking it a step further by not even respecting repeated feedback about it).
Worrying about me without nurturing or mothering.
The worries and negativity will always be there about something or other, but zero response to positive outcomes or options which just don’t register i.e. not being happy or encouraging or even interested.
I wasn’t looking for the positive mothering outcome, but at least dont give me all the negativity.
And here, whilst to be honest, it is a bit of a stretch, there’s a fair bit of negativity about the method chosen to move ahead. Like taken a car for a repair to a florist, if I recall correctly.
Dismisssal without listening.
Oh, you want to do that to fix your car, hah! what a numbnuts, that’s a florist.
Oh, you want me to respect your journey, what’s the point in that?
Its like saying, I have no idea what the specifics are, but whatever they are your choice of method suck, your choice to choose it sucks, and your choice to even have your choice is a no go. But here’s what you Should or Must do instead.
Unecessary aggression.
Which I’ve decided to meet with an unfortunate defense mechanism like Reverse Uno.
I get the verbal abuse or attack, I dish it back with equal intensity.
This is a conditioned fear response versus a love response, and designed to protect me but instead of helping the situation, probably worsens it.
But hey, nemo me impune laccessit - let him who would offend me with impunity beware.
Just play nice. It’s that simple.
If you dont, reverse uno.
So here’s the reverse uno.
You were doing so so well until you had to mess it up with that PS.
Claudiu,
It’s been a blast, but I’ll not have you commenting anymore on my journal.
Even if you do decide to respect my journey, there’s too much water under the bridge.
Thank you for all your help.
Sure, you can ignore my capacitous request again and forcefully insert yourself (zabardasthi) on my page.
I have to be honest, this response has been exhilarating.
I told myself if I wait till tomorrow, I’ll chill out, but this is a glorious opportunity to play through the pattern, and like I said to Srinath, if I show up as annoyance, or anger, or even hatred, so be it. That’s how the perfect arrangement of the world is showing up in this moment, I just have to appreciate and enjoy it, which i sure as hell am, even if I.am smack bang in the middle of an unhealthy pattern playing itself out. Again.
Sure, I might be overcome with regret and remorse later, as often happens, but will document here.
My objectives for recording here.
My progress with the method i.e. appreciating and enjoying this moment of being alive (which like I said has been going well apart from repeated cycles and patterns related to harmlessness
Document what comes up
Keep on with not criticising the method, maintain a healthy respect and beginners mind (and nothing to criticise other than what has already been (kindly by Claudiu) already explained to me with my first posts.
Don’t criticise other’s on here (not done that, except with one Reverse Uno (and now two bans from commenting on my journal) for unnecessary aggression).
Come back and review patterns.
Also it’s a forum I feel doesn’t get drawn into a lot of the other navel gazing of other methods and this one appears supremely practical (and the added bonus of Srinath’s feedback and insights - triggering though they be, but he’s the only one of my close friends that can remotely manage to trigger me, consciously or not).
How absolutely magical is the universe to make you write a decent reply, and then that PS drops in and the proverbial hits the fan, and you proceed to trigger ALL my repeating cycles/pet peeves with just a couple of sentences, ahh, and I play my part too in the cycle.
Magical. Absolutely magical.
I’m waiting to see what comes up, remorse, regret (apology unlikely as whenever recall times I was annoyed, I get annoyed again, so the first response appears appropriate. Kill the feeling being eh?).
But yes, everyday I grow more in awe of the absolutely perfect arrangement unfolding perfectly further than my wildest dreams.
And that ends this section of the Control-Autonomy-Independence Frustration-Blame-Condemnation triads.
The lesson continues to be you can’t control people and circumstances and they will continue to behave how they always have.
I’m finding this kind of absurd so I’m just going to chime in
I read Claudiu’s response and since I don’t have any emotional charge, I found it straightforward and without any malice. He’s basically just saying we here only know one tried and tested way to get to AF, and that’s all we can really help out with. Maybe there’s another way, and you can pioneer it. Nonetheless, your “boundary” is just a way to get Claudiu (or others here, I don’t know) to validate your approach. It’s a form of control in disguise. And since he did not, you flew off into a tirade.
Bub… possibly this is due to a misunderstanding of terms, by not respecting the path I didn’t mean not allowing you to do whatever you will (I have no power over this), but rather not holding your choices in esteem.
Or in other words, being discerning and critical and drawing a conclusion based on my experiences.
If you have qualms with this … you can’t force people to respect you or your choices, that’s not how it works. You do what you do and people think what they think.
I basically don’t operate via respect or disrespect anymore anyway, just critically evaluating and seeing what is sensible or not. This often puts one on the negative side of a social interaction… such is how it is.
Responding to a post is not interfering with a decision, it’s having a conversation. Nothing I wrote or write is forcing you to do anything. And relating that to rape is a bit absurd.
This is a public forum, if you don’t want comments or feedback on what you write then you may be looking for more of a private journal type situation.
And to preempt a possible objection, that is a suggestion, not a demand or a forcing you to leave or even a request to do so
In any case I wasn’t and am not planning on harassing you with replies, this wouldn’t be productive. I would wait until or unless I possibly see something of benefit that I could say and say it only then. It is clear going over the same that we already went over wouldn’t be productive at this point which is why I didn’t.
I would just suggest that you keep your own stated goal in mind - enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive - and reflect back on your convo with Srinath about how the harmless part of it feeds into the happiness part (and vice versa).
@bub, I bet you can get passionate at times and I can relate to that; I have been known to get passionate myself. My sense is that your idea about what this space is for is different then what it actually is.
You seem to be coming at this journal as a sort of free-flow of thought, where you don’t censor yourself and allow yourself to really say what you’re feeling. Cool! But if you didn’t want input why post here?
Did @claudiu’s post sting? All he attempted to do is point out discrepancies between what you’re aiming for and what you say. The actualism method isn’t for people who are “more than happy to live with the feeling being.” Can you blame him for his P.S.? People here want to immolate, and are using the method explicitly for that purpose. They’re not using the method to be more than happy to live with the feeling being."
Also, do you see how your dissociating yourself from your feelings in that sentence? There’s an “I’m” that’s more than happy to live with a “feeling being” (me) for the rest of “my” life. You are the feeling being, not something separate that has to live with it. What you’re really saying is, “I don’t mind living with myself for the rest of my life” or even better, “I don’t mind living as a feeling being for the rest of my life.” Well, isn’t that convenient? Of course you don’t.
Have you considered you’re programed to want to live as a feeling being for the rest of your life?
PETER: As an actualist, I always put the aim to be harmless towards my fellow human beings first and my aim for happiness second, because it is impossible for me be happy unless I am harmless. For anyone who is sincere about peace on earth it is essential to put becoming harmless first … and then increased happiness invariably follows. In the case in point, if one stops being sarcastic, as in expressing bitter or wounding remarks to others, then one has more chance of being happy … which in turn means that one has less reason to feel cynical …which in turn means one is less prone to be sarcastic and so on … until both cynicism and sarcasm eventually disappear as if by magic. It’s a fascinating business to see, and experientially understand, how feelings are interlinked, how they produce an endless cycle of ups and downs, how there is a continuous tendency to wound and then feel wounded, how there is a seesaw sequence of excitement and boredom … and so on.
While in stark contrast, the actualism method is about enjoying and appreciating being alive in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are, i.e. without changing anything about the world… in other words, a (relatively) unconditional enjoyment.
How on earth can I live happily and harmlessly in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are whilst I nurse malice and sorrow in my bosom?
In essence ‘you’ are running the show, ‘you’ are letting ‘your’ feelings be the arbiter of what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, how things should be and what is ‘good’ and what is ‘problematic’,
My interest has always laid in the reasons for the persistent inability of human beings to live together in peace and harmony and it would seem in hindsight that this abiding interest meant that I could not ignore the intrinsic challenge that is at the core of actualism – can I prove by living example that it is possible, in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are, to live with my fellow human beings in utter peace and harmony?
RICHARD (to Respondent No. 33): Malice and sorrow are intrinsically connected and constitute what is known as ‘The Human Condition’. The term ‘Human Condition’ is a well-established philosophical term that refers to the situation that all human beings find themselves in when they emerge here as babies. The term refers to the contrary and perverse nature of all peoples of all races and all cultures. There is ‘good’ and ‘bad’ in everyone … all humans have a ‘dark side’ to their nature and a ‘light side’. The battle betwixt ‘Good and Evil’ has raged down through the centuries and it requires constant vigilance lest evil gets the upper hand. Morals and ethics seek to control the wayward self that lurks deep within the human breast … and some semblance of what is called ‘peace’ prevails for the main. Where morality and ethicality fails to curb the ‘savage beast’, law and order is maintained … at the point of a gun. The ending of malice and sorrow involves getting one’s head out of the clouds – and beyond – and coming down-to-earth where the flesh and blood bodies called human beings actually live. Obviously, the solution to all the ills of humankind can only be found here in space and now in time. Then the question is: is it possible to be free of the human condition, here on earth, in this life-time, as this flesh and blood body? Which means: How on earth can I live happily and harmlessly in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are whilst I nurse malice and sorrow in my bosom?
Me’ feeling bad is essentially this - an objection to the way things are. As such the solution with actualism isn’t to change the way things are (from one equally perfect arrangement to another) such as to appease ‘my’ objections. Rather it’s about removing ‘my’ objections to things being the way they are. This is the only possible way to successfully continuously (i.e. (relatively) unconditionally) enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive, otherwise there will always be endless objections and changing things to appease ‘me’. The problem is ‘me’, not the universe.
Indeed this same spirit is applied in actualism – there is indeed a problem and it does indeed need resolving. It’s just that in the normal way, the problem is the universe and the solution is changing the universe, while in the actualist way, the problem is ‘me’ and the solution is changing ‘me’.
As such the world does not need to change in order for this perfection to permeate. No matter what state the world is in, what (conditional) arrangement of the matter and particles and humans and things in it – it is already all perfect. Who am ‘I’ to say that something is wrong with the way things are? It is akin to saying that water is ‘wrong’ for flowing downstream.
Thank you all for engaging with me and offering your insights into the actualism method. While I appreciate the opportunity for dialogue and the intentions behind your comments, I have to point out some inconsistencies and contradictions that have emerged.
Acceptance vs. Prescriptiveness: The actualism method advises us to accept the world and people as they are. Yet, there’s a pervasive insistence that I should adopt a specific method or aim for a specific goal, such as self-immolation, rather than respecting my journey. This contradicts the principle of acceptance.
Harmlessness: This method promotes the importance of being harmless. However, the tone and the response to my boundaries have been far from harmless. I’ve explicitly requested for my journey to be respected, yet this has been ignored.
Autonomy and Independence: The dismissal of my choices and autonomy is blatant. The forum seems to suggest that their way is the only way to achieve a certain mental state, dismissing my own experiences and choices as substandard.
Negative vs. Positive Engagement: The method emphasizes happiness and harmlessness, yet the tone has been decidedly negative, particularly when my perspectives diverge from the forum’s accepted narrative of only one method, all the others suck, and if you want us to help, it has to be. on our terms i.e. sign up and commit to the entirety of the method. (Apart from Claudiu, the tone has been of course cordial, but the harmful jab is ever present).
Hypocrisy and Self-Righteousness: The claim that this is the only method that works in the world seems rather self-righteous and, quite frankly, hypocritical. Given the limited success stories related to this method, the confidence with which this claim is made is bewildering. Reminds me of the emperor’s new clothes.
I understand that this is a public forum, and feedback is a natural part of this environment. However, I was under the impression that this forum was open to multiple interpretations and personal journeys. I find myself compelled to reconsider my involvement here, given the above contradictions and the increasingly dogmatic tone. Which is a shame really, as AF is a fantastic method.
As such, I would appreciate it if you are not able to accept me as I am, and be harmless (repeatedly pressing the one big trigger that I ask you not to press is a harmful action in my view, and again further fleshes out the hypocrisy and double talk) could refrain from commenting on my future posts. If you choose to ignore this request, it would only further substantiate the lack of harmlessness and respect that I’ve observed here.
Here’s a heads up on the harmless option:
Bub, sure, go with whatever journey you want, we accept you as you are.
If you have AF doubts, we’re happy to clarify them for you.
Anything else will be percieved as a deliberately malicious and harmful action, in opposition to clearly stated preferences, and even the specifics of the method like accept the world as it is, and people as they are. The extents of the blind spots in relation to this is staggering.
This is a call to practice what you preach.
But there’s no controlling people, they will continue to behave as they always have, even if it’s in direct contradiction to all they purport to believe in.
Thank you for your attention, and I wish you all the best in your respective journeys.
Imagine a community garden, a place where everyone is invited to plant seeds of various kinds—flowers, fruits, vegetables, you name it, where each of us is given a patch of soil to cultivate. In this community, there are gardeners who swear by a specific type of fertilizer or a unique planting technique. They’ve had success with it and claim it’s the only method that guarantees growth. These gardeners go around insisting that others should only use their method, interrupting others’ natural processes and replacing foreign fertilizers with their own preferred one.
Yet, upon closer observation, you’ll notice that only a couple of patches are truly flourishing under this one-size-fits-all method, while the rest seem to struggle or are stuck in perpetual stagnation. Now, what happens when a new gardener arrives, eager to learn but also wanting to experiment with other types of soil, nutrients, or even seeds? Instead of celebrating the diversity and potential for new blossoming flowers or fruits, some members of the community immediately dismiss the newcomer’s ideas, claiming that only their fertilizer can yield results.
In their insistence, these gardeners have overlooked the essence of gardening itself: the miracle of life, the beauty of diversity, and the joy of witnessing growth in many forms and colors. They’re so fixated on their way of doing things that they miss out on the larger tapestry of life taking shape around them.
Here’s the first time you brought up the word “respect” in this thread [1]:
Here you indicted respect isn’t important to you and you are “more than happy” if I “completely disagree”.
This is the second instance:
Here again you indicate it is “a-ok” if one’s journey is not respected.
As it was “a-ok” not to, it was an opportune moment to point out how it’s not always sensible to respect (as in hold in high esteem) someone’s journey.
This is the 3rd post respect is mentioned, in response to that:
All this is to point out that you hadn’t actually set this boundary of “please respect my journey” before this 3rd post.
Apparently it was important to you all along, yet you either didn’t recognize it was or didn’t articulate it. This is why I frequently brought up the importance of sincerity and disentangling internal contradictions in our conversations so far.
———
It appears that your main qualm is that some person or persons here are attempting to prevent you from going on the journey you want.
Yet this is not what is happening. You can of course go on whatever journey you want, and nobody here (at least not the person writing these words) is even attempting to stop you from doing so.
If you can point to somewhere I was disallowing you from going on whatever journey you want, it would be appreciated — but you won’t be able to as I haven’t done that.
Given this wish is being respected, the posting continues.
What I’ve actually done is as you wrote next:
That is, I’ve given advice based on your stated personal interest in AF and actualism, tailored to help you with said stated goals.
Only limiting it to the questions you ask, instead of also the things you write that are not in accordance with what is beneficial to applying the actualism method, would only be doing you a disservice.
The main issue is that you are conflating acceptance with approval, allowance with endorsement, letting-be with concordance, not-attempting-to-change-the-other with validation.
Pointing out that what you are doing is not in accordance with your stated goals is not attempting to stop you from doing anything, but rather informing you of the facts of the matter. What you do with that information is up to you of course.
If what you are asking is that nobody posts anything critical on your journal, and only agreements with what you are doing are to be written here – then that will be up to each individual whether they choose to respect it, but then I question the purpose of writing in a public forum specifically set up for actualism (and not spirituality). If that is so it would appear you are looking for an echo chamber of validation rather than pursuing the actualism method and AF.
I don’t think you’re actually looking for this… you wrote you found the posts helpful and your convo with Srinath helpful where he was stating things you weren’t doing/disagreed with (like about harmlessness). But that is just my evaluation.
I’ll leave it here as until these core matters are resolved there is not much purpose in conversing back and forth on any other matters.
I hope you don’t mind me adding a post here in your journal. Thank you for taking time to participate in the forum and for being able to give your honest feedback. Please accept my apology for the length of this post.
The AF site is simply explaining this sense of the thinking aspect of self and the feeling aspect of self. For me, I have experienced such a mix up of how I think and feel about myself, at first I hadn’t noticed the subtle differences but over time I can see more clearly the subtle differences in this area.
I can grasp aspects of what Richard is saying though, for I know I have such identities as this Atheist, the writer, software developer and lone wolf type identities.
Whereas on the emotional aspect of who I feel myself to be, it is evident in the moment there are instinctual reactions of how people or events trigger me and this sense of feeling towards my past and memories. All my past story and the emotional vibes and flavours it creates ties into that feeling aspect of my identity.
My personal experience is as a voice in my head that strangely talks to itself as a manifestation of thoughts, ideas and memories as well as me experiencing emotional reactions and sensory input. This sense of self can shift its awareness and focus onto the thinking, emotional and sensory experiences at times, or at other times one particular mode seems to dominate of its own happening.
I at first thought this was the same for everyone and then started to realise there were different ways people experienced their internal reality, some people didn’t talk to themselves, some people had a completely quiet mind etc.
I would also reiterate that Actual Freedom and practicing the method is not a philosophy (An Actual Freedom is Not a Philosophy/ Theory). I too made this mistake initially. It is more an experiential approach, and it is very easy to be misunderstood.
Richard: An actual freedom from the human condition is not a philosophy … and just so that there is no misunderstanding: it is not a metaphysics either, or an idea, an ideal, a belief, a concept, an opinion, a conjecture, a speculation, an assumption, a presumption, a supposition, a surmise, an inference, a judgement, an intellectualisation, an imagination, a posit, an image, an analysis, a viewpoint, a view, a stance, a perspective, a standpoint, a position, a world-view, a mind-set, a state-of-mind, a frame-of-mind, or any other of the 101 ways of dismissing a direct report of what it is to be actually free from the human condition and living the utter peace of the perfection of the purity welling endlessly as the infinitude this eternal, infinite and perpetual universe actually is.
The best way that I can describe it, is that it is something experiential. In the same way that I often see people misrepresent depression, anxiety and panic attacks from those who clearly have no experiential understanding of the conditions. It is one thing to read in a book or a website about such conditions but a completely different understanding to have experientially encountered them (though I wouldn’t wish anybody to experience those or aim to experience those states lol). The same way I cannot pretend to understand a Schizophrenic’s hallucinations from reading a book on abnormal psychology.
Therefore, until you have had a PCE and can experientially verify what the descriptions are indicating then you only have a superficial understanding of what is being described. I started out this way, I was even sceptical that such a state or experience was even possible but I now know that I was wrong. This is because I came from an initial stance that all subjective experiences are invalid, I only valued the objective aspects of this universe. However, with language we can convey shared subjective experiences and discern whether subjective experiences are similar or the same, and we can determine which subjective experiences have personal validity to us. For example, I reject peoples subjective experiences of God which to a lot of people makes me an asshole, but that is the benefit of freedom, you can choose what you choose to accept, validate, reject.
Despite being from such different starting points (atheist vs spiritualist) so many of our misunderstandings or points of initial rejection of AF are very similar.
I too had this overarching sense that all feelings are “ok” and that what arises, arises and one has to deal with it. I had found my own method of happiness from learning and creativity though which helped me overcome negative feelings I didn’t like. However, eventually I found these to be conditional. By this, I mean I encountered experiences and situations in which no longer worked to keep in a happy and stable way. Also, being honest and recognising how many of my emotions could be harmful to others.
What I have experientially discovered for myself, was that there are some forms of psychological suffering which can come unexpected and easily take away that overarching sense of ok.
I think a lot of peoples ok is only ok because it hasn’t been stress tested with extreme conditions that might break that ok-ness, like being caught in a violent encounter, a war or a natural disaster. I saw this with Covid and the pandemic, many people who had sworn to me about living happy lives, suddenly their happiness was also shown to be conditional and the pandemic took away the circumstances that made their happiness previously viable.
Until you have experienced it, it is really difficult to appreciate the significance of it. Your life is never the same afterwards, in much the same way it is never the same if you have experienced the worse that depression and anxiety has to offer or some of the most extreme positive emotions such as being in love (whether unrequited or reciprocated). It changes you and your perception of life. The different emotional experiences show you more about how you work and tick but a PCE for me was like a whole new ball game, like dang…hard to ignore and ever be as I was before.
Feelings always had high value to me, especially sorrow, nostalgia, love and all of the emotional vibes and highs associated with creativity and learning. Everything feeling had its place and value, because it had creative meaning and personal meaning as well.
Eventually though, I saw feelings and emotions as being strings pushing and pulling me away from certain stimuli. Why did I have to feel any particular way to anything.
I guess I was curious and sincere enough to want to know what the experience was like before I decided whether it was something to ignore or dismiss. The same option is valid for you but if it isn’t coming from a sincere place, there is no point of even bothering. However, that choice is always yours, that is where your autonomy is shown.
Do you see this as a real subjective experience or a hallucination? Hallucinations, unconscious imagination, delusions…they make it so difficult to value and qualify subjective experiences. This is why I was very sceptical about the PCE but the friend who first told me about it was one of my closest friends and I didn’t doubt his sincerity. If a different person in my life was telling me about it and I might have never explored this pathway. [Edited for correction 02/01/2024]
Well…the physics as to whether we live in a deterministic or non-deterministic universe are unknown. So, if we are being honest, there is no evidence to support the future has already been written out, but there is no evidence to contradict it either, much like the existence of a supreme being.
Ideas such as eternalism and block universe theory about such aspects are not facts and bring up interesting philosophical ideas but they are not quite anything we can use to make valuable predictions or test in a repeatable fashion, therefore I would urge caution in accepting the validity of certain scientific theories and being careful to distinguish those that remain in the purely theoretic realm as opposed to the experimental and experiential.
You can’t know that but you do know this is the only moment your alive, so it surely has more practical value. Acknowledging the value of this moment in time being the only moment in which anything of relevance to us is happening, it will be a moment like this until we die. Additionally, if everything is written out then it contradicts your own ideas on autonomy and choice, for if everything is absolutely written out then you have no autonomy anyway lol.
It is always a careful balance between ideas being consistent with facts and being actual facts themselves. It is so easy for something to be only a piece of a picture or sometimes a mistake and a misunderstanding and knowledge takes us in a different direction. The probabilistic nature of the universe and our understanding of certain phenomena for example, are not always as straight forward and clear cut as we may think or have been taught in school, you peel back layers of the onion and find the concepts are more complicated and nuanced than expected.
I would reiterate the importance of this experience and that until you can definitively say you have experienced such a thing then there is no true commonality. As somebody who started out without having ever had such an experience nor the memory of one, I can appreciate how wrong my initial conceptualisations of the experience were.
The AF method has nothing to do with accepting people as they are and the world as it is, but we can understand that evolution has allowed the conditions for all of the crazy behaviours to form and thus the human condition. How can I ever really feel a deep hatred and blame of somebody who has done something wrong when I know they are a puppet on a string, following emotions and behaviours that have evolved without them to blame. Hence, for a long time my anger was more directed towards the universe for allowing such conditions to arise, but the same universe has provided a means to suffer less and have the chance to make choices that benefit my general well being, though it is not as easy as I wish at times, each moment at least presents a new opportunity.
Can I take more credit for being more aware of my behaviour than somebody that doesn’t? All of the different people and events that led me to have more insight into how I tick even before having had a PCE…so many variables in an individual life.
RICHARD: I do not advise anyone to ‘accept the world as it is, with people as they are’ … I always put the question this way: ‘How can I live happily and harmlessly in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are?’ Which means: how is it possible to enjoy and appreciate being here, each moment again, as this flesh and blood body? Or: in what way can one live in complete fulfilment and total contentment for the remainder of one’s life? With the purity and perfection of a pure consciousness experience (PCE) firmly in mind as one’s guiding light one asks, each moment again: ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’
Incidentally, the word ‘acceptance’ has a lot of currency these days and popular usage has given it somewhat the same meaning as ‘allow’ or ‘permit’ or ‘tolerate’ … nineteen years ago ‘I’, the persona that I was, looked at the physical world and just knew that this enormous construct called the universe was not ‘set up’ for us humans to be forever forlorn in with only scant moments of reprieve. ‘I’ the persona realised there and then that it was not and could not ever be some ‘sick cosmic joke’ that humans all had to endure and ‘make the best of’. ‘I’ the persona felt foolish that ‘I’ had believed for thirty two years that the wisdom of the ‘real-world’ that ‘I’ had inherited – the world that ‘I’ was born into – was set in stone. I ceased accepting, allowing, permitting or tolerating or being resigned to suffering there and then. Which is why I say to people to embrace death (as in unreservedly saying !YES! to being alive as this flesh and blood body) as a full-blooded approval and endorsement. Those peoples who say that they ‘accept’ … um … a rapist, for just one example, never for one moment are approving and endorsing … let alone unreservedly saying !YES! to the rapist.
So much for ‘acceptance’ as a viable modus operandi.
Bubs - 2. Harmlessness: This method promotes the importance of being harmless. However, the tone and the response to my boundaries have been far from harmless. I’ve explicitly requested for my journey to be respected, yet this has been ignored.
The majority of us are not actually free, therefore we too are still under the sway of the deleterious behaviours that manifest in the human condition. We try our best to be aware and avoid malicious behaviours but that will not always be the case. Additionally, your internal thinking and feeling attacked doesn’t mean that is the case in actuality. Words and language themselves can project meaning and feeling tones in the reader that were not something intended by the writer, I am pretty sure most adults can point to some experience where a family member, partner or work colleague has misinterpreted their text, email or other form of written communication with a form of negative emotion or different meaning than intended.
Every human has their journey, you can be an atheist, agnostic, spiritualist, pick a religion or make something up new or whatever, that doesn’t change, nobody is telling you how to live your life or what choices to make. On the same token, there is no onus on any of us to validate or appreciate your personal journey, we can’t guarantee it will have any significance, meaning or commonality we wish to share or discuss with you.
If you think this is a place to validate your individual journey then maybe this is not the forum for you. The intent of this forum is an interest in a very specific end goal. We have no interest in validating the end goal you might be aiming for and that is not meant in some cruel or malicious jibe, just getting down to brass tacts and being explicit as to what we are doing here. We are exploring that we have had these particular experiences such as an Excellence Experience or a PCE and the perpetual experience of such a state is why we are here.
Bubs - 3. Autonomy and Independence: The dismissal of my choices and autonomy is blatant. The forum seems to suggest that their way is the only way to achieve a certain mental state, dismissing my own experiences and choices as substandard.
We can always dismiss your choices, just as I dismissed religion, spirituality and belief in general before I had ever encountered AF. That is the flip side of autonomy, there will be those who use their autonomy to reject everything about you or things that you hold dear or value. It is a bit hypocritical to demand autonomy and complain about how others use their autonomy because their autonomous choices are ones that you don’t like.
I thought from your previous discussions you have never had a PCE, therefore you are complaining about there being only one way to achieve a state which you have never experienced before anyway, right? That sounds a bit absurd. Unless I have misunderstood or misread your previous comments. I think you have misunderstood the explicit nature of what the experiences being described point to.
As I have mentioned, there are definitely different ways of being happy and different ways of being harmless, as most of us have already explored and had such experiences of different types of happy and harmlessness, however these are not the same type of happiness and harmlessness defined in a PCE. The chilled highs and
vibes I lived with most of my life were great and made me chilled but these are not the same thing as the happy and harmlessness pertaining to a PCE, again the importance of explicit and clear communication.
Bubs - 4. Negative vs. Positive Engagement: The method emphasizes happiness and harmlessness, yet the tone has been decidedly negative, particularly when my perspectives diverge from the forum’s accepted narrative of only one method, all the others suck, and if you want us to help, it has to be. on our terms i.e. sign up and commit to the entirety of the method. (Apart from Claudiu, the tone has been of course cordial, but the harmful jab is ever present).
You are claiming an alternative method to a state you said you had never experienced, i.e. the PCE. Hence, the confusion and contradiction. English is not your first language I take it, right? I think that you are potentially not understanding what is being discussed and described, which happened to me too and I am a native English speaker because the nature of what is being described is something quite explicitly described and not always obvious, or easy to misinterpret or misconstrue.
Nobody is saying there aren’t alternative ways to experience happiness and enjoy life, but I guarantee that majority of these will be conditional, just as my previous means of enjoying life. [Edited as correction 02/01/2024]
Bubs - 5. ** Hypocrisy and Self-Righteousness: The claim that this is the only method that works in the world seems rather self-righteous and, quite frankly, hypocritical. Given the limited success stories related to this method, the confidence with which this claim is made is bewildering. Reminds me of the emperor’s new clothes.
Nobody is saying there aren’t alternative ways to experience happiness and enjoy life, but I guarantee that majority of these will be conditional, just as my previous means of enjoying life eventually proved to be. I also, went back to exploring alternatives after having a PCE because I wanted to know for myself whether love, creativity and other means could produce the goods for me and they didn’t, they all fell short. I never felt like I couldn’t do this, and on this and the old forums I never felt I had no means to explore life, I think those feelings are in you personally, maybe some aspect of what is discussed here frightens or perturbs you.
You are always free to explore some alternative happiness for yourself and others, however, that is not what is being explicitly explored and sought for here. You write just as I did, before having a PCE so I am pretty sure you have not had this experience yet and it has no experiential reference point for you.
You made the same mistake I made, attacking an experience I had never had and didn’t have an experiential understanding of. Again, I see people do this with depression, anxiety and panic attacks and I can see that people make assumptions and give their opinion on an experience they have no experiential understanding of. Luckily, my friend and people on the old forum were always very helpful and patient with me.
Every single argument you have raised is exactly what I raised in my initial reactions and rejection of AF, though I had some additional misunderstandings such as thinking it is spirituality in disguise, etc because I had never encountered anything like it. If you don’t have any experiential understanding of the PCE then there really is no common ground to start from.
The method has helped me overcome depression and anxiety now, and I am off medication for nearly 3 years now. Could it be communicate better and conveyed better, definitely. There are some aspects about it so simple that we overcomplicate it. Is it successful overall, not really but for those of us who have been changed by it or to have had a PCE, it is hard to not be pulled back to it.
No, you have misunderstood what the forum and experiences are about and are unhappy it is not what you thought it was. It is not dogmatic, it is explicitly describing something experiential, such as forums about anxiety explicitly detail symptoms people have had with anxiety, such as panic attacks, there is a pretty commonality as to how panic attacks are experienced, there is a commonality as to how EE and PCEs are experienced.
Your an adult, by now you must surely have learned that you don’t get to dictate what people think or feel about you. Neither can you control whether they will accept or reject you. You exist, and you will do what you do and not do what you don’t do lol. Me or anybody else on this forum (or in your life) accepting or rejecting you isn’t going to change a thing. Maybe, you never experienced life as an outcast or grew up in a monoculture where most people believed the same things that you did. I am in an atheist, I have worked with people who felt atheists should die, people refuse to work with me etc, nobody accepted my personal choices, but like a big boy I got on with it and accepted I can’t change how people will react to me and neither do I want to pretend to be something I am not to appease others. I accept you are a human being, as deluded and messed up as the rest of us. I will always listen to you and if you can demonstrate some repeatable and useful means of being happy and harmless that doesn’t require belief or self delusion, of course I would be interested but I am also not going to ignore those positive experiences from AF that have already changed my life.
You sound a little immature, as somebody who has rejected and come back to AF multiple times, I did so as was my prerogative but I didn’t need to make such a little stand, I always maintained respectful ties to the people on the forums and maintained open and honest dialogue, I didn’t hide behind any disagreement is malice, then nobody can question or challenge you in anyway and you never have to change but everyone else does. Don’t make me feel bad or I am not your friend lol. [Edited spelling mistake 02/01/2024]
You say, while dictating what people can or can’t say to you. As I said earlier, not everyone here is free of the human condition, certain people and things still trigger emotional reactions, you are not on a forum of free people only, you do understand that right? There is no belief about AF, it is not a belief being followed but a experiential means of living, i.e. having a PCE and it becoming a permanent means of existing and moment to moment we will fail and be triggered by emotions and beliefs but at least as are sincere about what we are experiencing and why we behave the way we do. Now, if you never had a PCE, it may seem like a belief that such a state is possible but that is true of any subjective experience, like a panic attack, for example.
In their insistence, these gardeners have overlooked the essence of gardening itself: the miracle of life, the beauty of diversity, and the joy of witnessing growth in many forms and colors. They’re so fixated on their way of doing things that they miss out on the larger tapestry of life taking shape around them.
The PCE is a state of direct experience of the garden and all of the possible things that exist in that garden are sensually experienced directly without any emotional manipulation throwing you hither and thither like a puppet on a string. You experience everything so directly and incredibly and utterly fascinatingly it is so direct. The means of getting to a PCE has no ultimate importance, the state itself is the means and the ends. Though for most, it has only been experienced in fleeting moments, some have been lucky enough to enjoy for extended time periods and even less are living it perpetually, once experienced it is impossible not to forget or be changed.
We try our best to be aware and avoid malicious behaviours but that will not always be the case. Additionally, your internal thinking and feeling attacked doesn’t mean that is the case in actuality. Words and language themselves can project meaning and feeling tones in the reader that were not something intended by the writer.
Dismissal
On the same token, there is no onus on any of us to validate or appreciate your personal journey, we can’t guarantee it will have any significance, meaning or commonality we wish to share or discuss with you.
Dismissal
If you think this is a place to validate your individual journey then maybe this is not the forum for you. The intent of this forum is an interest in a very specific end goal. We have no interest in validating the end goal you might be aiming for and that is not meant in some cruel or malicious jibe, just getting down to brass tacts and being explicit as to what we are doing here. We are exploring that we have had these particular experiences such as an Excellence Experience or a PCE and the perpetual experience of such a state is why we are here.
Dismissal and misinterpretation.
Don’t need you or anyone to validate my journey.
Just needed the space to have my own journey, whilst I explored AF. And repeatedly told, no you can’t do both, leave, find failure, and come back to the only truth, AF.
We can always dismiss your choices, just as I dismissed religion, spirituality and belief in general before I had ever encountered AF.
Exactly dismissal repeatedly and egregiously.
That is the flip side of autonomy, there will be those who use their autonomy to reject everything about you or things that you hold dear or value.
Then clearly say it - AF or leave the forum. As you’ve said to me so many times. Dont act like happy harmless wannabe’s and say we’re here to help everyone. This is a cult. Richard is the one true god and all his words are gospel. There is one way or the highway.
It is a bit hypocritical to demand autonomy and complain about how others use their autonomy because their autonomous choices are ones that you don’t like.
Now gradually the tone changes from dismissal to rudeness.
That sounds a bit absurd. Unless I have misunderstood or misread your previous comments. I think you have misunderstood the explicit nature of what the experiences being described point to.
Rudeness gradually stepping up.
English is not your first language I take it, right?
Rudeness really kicking into gear.
Nobody is saying there aren’t alternative ways to experience happiness and enjoy life, but I guarantee that majority of these will be conditional, just as my previous means of enjoying life.
Of course, dismiss all other methods. You have to. It’s a cult.
Some chump spoke about angels, and Richard demoted his BF status. He retracted his angels belief, and suddenly he’s officially BF again.
Nobody is saying there aren’t alternative ways to experience happiness and enjoy life, but I guarantee that majority of these will be conditional
Of course, there is only AF. Dont hide and think but I said ‘majority’ and not ‘all’.
I think those feelings are in you personally, maybe some aspect of what is discussed here frightens or perturbs you.
What the actual fuck?
You are always free to explore some alternative happiness for yourself and others, however, that is not what is being explicitly explored and sought for here. You write just as I did, before having a PCE so I am pretty sure you have not had this experience yet and it has no experiential reference point for you.
Dismissal.
You made the same mistake I made, attacking an experience I had never had and didn’t have an experiential understanding of.
Never attacked a PCE
Luckily, my friend and people on the old forum were always very helpful and patient with me.
All I was asking for.
If you don’t have any experiential understanding of the PCE then there really is no common ground to start from.
Dismissal
No, you have misunderstood what the forum and experiences are about and are unhappy it is not what you thought it was.
No bub, all I wanted was what I can get on almost any other forum. Hey, we’re happy to help you explore.
Not this, we’re conditionally happy to help you explore i.e. AF and not anything else. OR leave the forum.
Your an adult, by now you must surely have learned that you don’t get to dictate what people think or feel about you. Neither can you control whether they will accept or reject you. You exist, and you will do what you do and not do what you don’t do lol. Me or anybody else on this forum (or in your life) accepting or rejecting you isn’t going to change a thing.
Dismissal. Asking for space for my own journey (which I don’t really need permission from you jokers for - but it’s AF only or leave the forum) and saying I’m dictating, controlling.
but like a big boy I got on with it and accepted
I will always listen to you and if you can demonstrate some repeatable and useful means of being happy and harmless that doesn’t require belief or self delusion, of course I would be interested but I am also not going to ignore those positive experiences from AF that have already changed my life.
Dude, I’m pretty much always happy. No matter what the feck happens. Hell, if shit happens, my manic defence kicks in and my mood jumps up even higher. Srinath used to be amazed by my chronic happiness before. Sometimes like now, I’m annoyed. But when I look back at the times I was annoyed, I get annoyed again, so it’s feels appropriate.
You sound a little immature, as somebody who has rejected and come back to AF multiple times.
What a rude little boy you are. But of course, you’re not being rude, it’s my misinterpretation, my oversensitivity, my immaturity, etc etc.
Dude, I’ve come back to AF because I thought it was a fantastic method. But was repeatedly told to fuck off and get tired of what i was doing and come back here. I kept coming back, mainly because of the spectacularly high respect I have for Srinath and his recommendation of the method (BTW he’s also exploring other methods - sorry to let the cat out of the bag, Srinath - they might ask you to leave too. Okay, the forum members might respect you too much, but if Richard gets wind of it, there’s your BF credentials down the drain).
,
I did so as was my prerogative but I didn’t need to make such a little stand, I always maintained respectful ties to the people on the forums and maintained open and honest dialogue, I didn’t hide behind any disagreement is malice, then nobody can question or challenge you in anyway and you never have to change but everyone else does. Don’t make me feel bad or I am not your friend lol. [Edited spelling mistake 02/01/2024]
Absolute randomness making no sense. Dude, apart from my last post asking for space (I’ve always been super respectful) - because I was repeatedly asked to leave if I said I wanted to keep exploring other methods, and I got annoyed with the lack of respect for space. Fuck validation - just let me make what you clearly feel would be mistakes.
I was thinking of coming here and leaving the forum, but read your (son of bob) post and I thought this guy’s being a rare decent guy here. BUT it quickly descends into the same old dismissive nonsense. And then the harmfulness and malice. I replied to the middle third, but got exhausted.
it’s absolutely impossible to talk any sense with you guys, and trust me I work in a job with some of the most difficult to handle people in the world (same job as Srinath). Pretty much all of them leave happy and happy to see me again. Maybe because they feel listened to and concerns addressed.
You just can’t talk to a cultist - there is only one way. And Richard goes on and on about harmlesness but he comes across as a petty, oversensitive, malicous guy who will cut you off at the slightest hint of disagreement (angel example again). And it’s unsurprising that most of you have turned into that.
This is the emperor’s new clothes.
Just like you predicted my failure with other methods, let me predict your collective failures with this method. In ten years time, there’s not a single one of you who will reach AF (two people who say they’ve reached it, are living on a boat. Most of the BF guys like Srinath (and other BF’ers I have heard of) are exploring other methods).
It’s a bunch of hypocrities. Saying happy and harmless, breaking it repeatedly and justifying it saying it’s freedom, dont have to act a certain way, people misinterpret it etc etc.
Even the journals are the same old whingey self absorbed shit. Very little happiness, or AOTMOBA.
Richard speaks about nobody on the forum actually following the method, and a forum post comes up about it and everybody backslaps each other saying no, no, no, we’re all doiing it. Sure we can do more, but we’re all doing it.
Another post about what harmlessness was after my last post and same old echo chamber shyt showing no insight. The meaning of the communication is the response you get. Show some empathy and insight. Dont go off again and again justifying repeatedly shitty behaviours.
But again, I’m asking for insight from cultists. Good luck with that, bub.
And yeah, no replies. I know insightless cultists will ignore this again with a bunch of hypocrites cutting and pasting sections of my post, but dismissing all of it with gobbledygook. Heck, you did it to Richard’s (actually super valuable input) that no one on the forum was following the method, so big deal even if you do reply.
Ten years time - let’s see where you jokers get. Do I want you all to fail - nope. Will you succeed? fuck no.
Since I’ve been repeatedly asked to leave the forum, I’ve got to (finally, thank feck for that because it’s exhausting communicating with dismissive, insightless peeps who have all the answers) take the ‘suggestion’.
Not an outright dismissal, a partial one. Additionally, the rejection is more to do with those things we have known to have already dismissed such as the importance of belief, certain emotions, etc. Which from an individual perspective can be taken very personally. I see this a lot as an atheist, where religious people take my dismissal and rejection of their religion and beliefs very personally and feel it as a real psychic attack against them. What I am trying to say is that it is not always clearly the case, I am not meaning people harm because I cannot validate their beliefs and experiences. Not all atheists seek some harm and suffering upon the religious and spiritual because we reject their beliefs.
The criteria for what we validate and accept will vary wildly from one person to the next and be idiosyncratic, for me personally I can be quite difficult a person to have been swayed to the usefulness or validity of something. There is a high threshold for evidence and repeatability.
Of course that is the flip side of freedom and autonomy, I can dismiss and reject things. I reject Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and whole bunch of other things. I dismiss people’s certain subjective experiences and beliefs.
That is a part of life, people will reject and dismiss aspects of your personal experience. As people will dismiss aspects of my personal experience too.
This isn’t a forum about a generalised concept of happy and harmlessness it is about something explicit, the continuation of a PCE. It reminds me on reddit forums, when the forum subject is explicitly defined such as a Marvel comics forum and somebody wants to talk about DC comics or Image comics or the underground scene and moderators have to remind them this is explicitly a forum for Marvel comics.
Can you elaborate on the misinterpretation please, I would like to understand you better and it is not my intent to put words in your mouth. Your words seemed to indicate a need to have your journey be validated and accepted by us, but again it is very easy to misunderstood each other, especially as English can be a very ambiguous language at times.
I personally have never said you can’t do both but you will most likely find the path of AF diverge and contradicting with other possible pathways before you, that has been my experience and of many others in this forum. As you are on a forum explicitly dedicated to this end goal and full of people who have also gone on side pathways in spirituality, dedication to love and other pathways of course we are going to share with you and others how these were shown to be conditional and not in alignment with the goal of a PCE. Not to dictate to you what you should or shouldn’t do but the potentially save you time we lost on not achieving that end goal. Whilst you feel dismissed by us, are you not also dismissing my experiences and the experiences of others? What is your personal criteria for accepting or dismissing something?
You always have your own journey whether also involved in AF or not. I don’t know if you will find failure or not, and you are always free to have the space for your own journey. Whether or not your journey has personal value to me depends on certain criteria, its repeatability as a method/process, the absence of belief, self delusion etc. Again, this will be idiosyncratic to other people.
Yes, I am just being honest with you but maybe you don’t like hearing what I have to say. You can reject my choices and experiences too and take no value from them. That is freedom. I don’t care for what you believe but I will never infringe upon your freedom to believe what you believe. Does it upset you that you can’t make me validate or care for what you believe or have experienced? If you want to understand why I have rejected religion, spirituality and value to certain subjective experiences individually then I am happy to have that conversation and explain, but I notice most people never ask such explicit questions most likely because they don’t like the possible answers.
No, I am not going to demand you to leave the forum you are not some enemy, but why come to a forum that has an explicit intention and be surprised people are aiming for that explicit intention? I too had that initial it is a cult reaction too, again funny how similar feeling being reactions are. What proved useful to me was the repeatability, Richard or Peter or other peoples guidance is only of use in the same way somebody is an experienced carpenter or other skill can guide you in that skill because they have more experience with it, they are not some absolute definitive authority or rulers of your life. There is no worship required by me or authority over me. None of the individuals on this forum or who are free have had PCE’s have been forced to some single highway approach, they are individualistic and varied.
In English, being honest can sometimes come across as rude, it is a fine line. I am not trying to be rude or attack you maliciously, but if I see hypocrisy I am not going to not say something, I spent most of my life never communicating out of fear of conflict or upsetting somebody or being perceived negatively and I am no longer letting myself stay in such a bind. I hope you would do the same for me if you indicated some blind spot in me or noticed me being hypocritical about something. I come from a very plain speaking brutally honest English/Scottish family and my family members never shied away from hitting me with hard facts or honesty and I always loved that and have gravitated towards people who speak openly and honestly, even if it may seem harsh or crude to others.
No, I am genuinely trying to understand your viewpoint because it doesn’t seem relatable to me. Have you had a PCE before, yes or no?
That was a little cheeky but I was also trying to ascertain whether some form of miscommunication is going on lol. As even in our language it is easy to misunderstand each other because the words in English have so many overloaded meanings.
I dismissed most of these beliefs before exposure to AF and saw the arbitrary nature of belief. What do you believe exactly? It is not really clear from your previous posts.
Whether or not Richard or anybody else lives such an experience perpetually I cannot absolutely verify, what I do know regarding the experience and method is its personal usefulness to me, its repeatability and impact. The same way some people feel good from believing in a God or prayer, that works for them, for me it does nothing so I guess I was always going to have to explore different means of experiencing happiness.
I have had a PCE so I know such a state is possible, for me now it is whether or not such a state can genuinely be perpetually experienced or not is still an unknown.
As regards Richards rejection of that individual, there is no way he or anybody else can absolutely verify another individual’s subjective experience. If somebody seems to indicate something in alignment with something then it is only ok whilst everything they do and say is in alignment with how another can relate to the experience, when they say or do something in contradiction to that state then we have no choice but to reject the interpretation of it. That individual, in the previous forum that got wiped by Srid, also never answered any of my honest questions regarding the nature and manifestations of their beliefs, which were also idiosyncratic to the belief system and society that they were raised in, so I personally never accepted them as being free. By my personal criteria they are in contradiction to what I experientially know the PCE to represent and that personal contradiction was never resolved as they never had any future communication and I will add they don’t have to its their life and I am no authority over them, if they are fooling themselves or being dishonest that is on them.
I never like to say never, because I can’t and don’t know all, I am not deluded. However, I have lived long enough to see and reject much in this life with or without having had a PCE. Again, my personal criteria for validity is something outside of belief and repeatable. Which really does rule out a lot of stuff. Beliefs are arbitrary to me, emotions I know are malleable and unpredictable and can be changed and altered by medication and in the future who knows whatever means they might influenced by. What other types of experience might you be exploring or considering?
There are many cool and fascinating experiences in life and I am glad to have experienced them, the creative highs, being in love, and even the negative experiences and suffering taught me so much more about life and myself but I can’t deny personally that which has most value to me personally, i.e. a PCE.
Sorry that was a bit presumptuous of me, but that was really my initial reaction to AF when my friend introduced me. I was angry about it and dismissive but also perturbed and frightened. I guess a part of me was hoping you would have a similar arc that I could relate to but I can see that is pure projection on my part. I should have just asked you how does what you read here make you feel?
Then are you attacking the approach or concept of dedicating your life to having a PCE be lived perpetually? Or the value system of valuing that experience above everything else? Again, not trying to put words in your mouth just understand your explicit position.
Yes, but to validate what you experience and believe or to shoot the shit and be honest with you?
I haven’t asked you to leave the forum at all, ever. I am not that much of a dick, I hope lol. But the forum is explicitly about this particular experience the PCE and it being experienced perpetually and how we can achieve that. Are you trying to understand what AF/PCE is? What is the anything else you mean? I really don’t get you sorry.
Of course, I was just testing how insightful and self aware you are again cheekily but I can be a little cheeky at times. You words seem dismissive to me too but again that can be my own projection and interpretation and something for me to explore.
Yes, this particular forum has been created specifically for AF and previous incarnations were more open to just general enquiries etc and others were private but the decision was made to make this forum public (I personally would have preferred a private one), so inevitably we will get those coming who are curious about AF or even totally against AF, etc.
And again, I have not asked you to leave the forum I guess I am trying to understand why somebody who already seems to have rejected what it is about and doesn’t seem interested is hoping to get out of exchanges here. Or are you here just out of friendship and interest of what @Srinath has been involved with? I find you never really straight forward answer questions.
Then your happiness is conditional, because I have unintentionally managed to annoy you, right? And me being annoying is not the worse that life can throw at you. But being annoyed means you are no longer happy, right? Even if only for a short period of time. Nobody is not saying that annoyance or certain other emotions aren’t appropriate but that they are conditional. Whereas the PCE is unconditional, or more precisely there is just one condition, the abeyance of self which frustratingly is a condition you can’t have control over.
Yes, an almost 40 year old rude boy lol, again I think I am more cheeky than rude but again that’s a personal interpretation. I am being honest to how I interpreted your interactions, I could have kept it to myself or said nothing but I have done that my whole life, nothing ever gets anywhere. At least now you know what I think or feel. You are UK based too right? I am sure if we met up for a coffee and had a conversation you wouldn’t find me that rude, I hope lol.
I don’t think anybody was so harsh as to tell you to fuck off, and I wasn’t trying to make you feel that way. I was try to save you from wasting your own time or our time, if there was nothing of genuine interest, life is short and all.
I like Srinath a lot too, he is a very open and honest person and straight forwardly answers what he thinks and feels about things. I don’t find you as honest and straight forward, for example any of my questions regarding your subjective experiences like with ayahuasca you totally ignore and never answer, Srinath has never left me in the lurch or second guessing what he thinks or feels about something.
So the nature of what a PCE is and its perpetual existence, are my personal interest. If Srinath has found some other state or some other means to get to these states then I will always be interested in what he says, because he has always communicated openly and honestly with me and has my ear so to speak. As with anything repeatability and absence of belief and self delusion will be my default criteria.
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and there would be no conversation we could have.
this is what it is all about.
