This moment has no duration

Hi Jon,

Let’s start with some facts.

@JonnyPitt: Maybe the primary objection to self immolation is not being sure whether one wants to be by oneself in a fantastical place that isn’t real vs being among others in a place that is real.
The words depersonalization and derealization come to mind. I just experienced actual not as something that is more real than real or Real2.0 or super real but as something that is unreal. So unreal that the word Actual seemed counter-intuitive. Actual and real being synonyms in normal conversation, I found it at odds with the world I just experienced. A synonym for real didn’t seem to convey how unreal it was. Any word at all could be used to describe it as the place has no parallels. Something conveying a magic like quality well known to be fantastical fiction might convey how unreal it is: Genie land, pixie world, fairy land, a spontaneous song and dance with no choreography and no duration where the stage itself is singing and dancing and there is no audience… ([This moment has no duration - #98 by JonnyPitt])

This is clearly not a description of a PCE but of an altered state of consciousness. When you have a genuine PCE, it is never experienced as unreal the way you described it, i.e. foreign. It is more in line with the purity and perfection of the actual world become suddenly apparent –

*“it was so easy and simple to just be there” ([Mushrooms PCE]),
“The light was golden, every little swaying movement of the trees just emphasised the stillness. There was an utterly brilliant clarity and peace” ([Various Descriptions of PCE's]),
“I had a micro-pce a couple nights ago watching my fingers make a paper plane, just doing it on their own”. ([Everything happens of its own accord])
*“And then in a PCE I am that very pure intent.” ([Claudiu's Journal - #36 by claudiu])

You say you had experienced PCEs in the past ([This moment has no duration - #41 by JonnyPitt]), so with a bit of honest discernment you could have seen the difference for yourself.

But that was not the intention of your strange tale – the intention was –

JonnyPitt to Claudiu: I did choose impact over thoroughness. I wanted my prose to have some style. I didn’t want it to sound like a manual. I wanted it to be fun, not boring. How can I leave the reader surprised while still understanding my point was the unverbalized question I asked myself. […] So I just chose to combine flair with brevity.” [emphasis added] ([This moment has no duration - #106 by JonnyPitt])

You also knew it was “irrational and factually inaccurate” whilst not disclosing the “unverbalized question”, i.e. “looking for my own personal objections”

JonnyPitt to Claudiu: “I was looking for my own personal objections, which I knew to be irrational and factually inaccurate.” ([This moment has no duration - #104 by JonnyPitt])

So on several levels you have led your fellow human beings astray. You can call this lying (presently a political incorrect word) or bluffing i.e. not showing your cards for the “impact” you wanted to achieve (the course for more effective bluffing seems to have crept into real life after all :blush:).

JonnyPitt to Vineeto: I just took a course on how to bluff more effectively. But that’s poker not anywhere else.
Vineeto: […] because in reality he is afraid to leave his seemingly safe cage when the doors are wide open, and he could instead enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive.
JonnyPitt to Vineeto: That is exactly what I was trying to convey! I was looking for objections to staying as near to the actual world as I was. My focus then and there was on my objections. I am absolutely afraid of leaving my “seemingly safe cage”. That’s exactly what I wanted to convey. ([This moment has no duration - #104 by JonnyPitt])

So after clarifying that there is a marked difference between a PCE and an ASC, and pointing out your present lack of honesty, especially self-honesty, we can get to the meat of the matter – your objections to leave the cage “when the doors are wide open”.

  1. “Whether one wants to be by oneself in a fantastical place that isn’t real”
  2. “The words depersonalization and derealization come to mind”
  3. “I am absolutely afraid of leaving my seemingly safe cage

No. 1 is easy – who wants to live in an ASC – you would certainly be in a world of your own, with so many different types of ASCs to choose from.

I am not alone in the actual world – I only meet flesh-and-blood human beings and there is an actual intimacy happening with every body and every thing and every event because there is no separation (no separative self whatsoever). (see [Mailing List 'D' Respondent No. 6]).

No. 2 – Richard has written about the 4 psychiatric symptoms he has been diagnosed with –

• [Richard]: ‘… I have not been reticent about having been closely examined, over a three-year period by both an accredited psychiatrist and psychologist, and found to be having the following symptoms: 1. Depersonalisation (no sense of identity) as in no ‘self’ by whatever name. 2. Derealisation (lost touch with reality) as in reality has vanished completely. 3. Alexithymia (inability to feel the affections) as in no affective feelings whatsoever. 4. Anhedonia (inability to feel pleasure/pain) as in no affective pleasure/pain facility. (Mailing List 'AF' Respondent No. 46)

Incidentally, according to these psychiatrically defined terms, myself and everyone else free from the instinctual passions could be diagnosed with the same symptoms. It only means that psychiatry is as yet unaware about the Third Alternative. Hence I think your objection that comes to your mind is rather the fear of going mad, not “depersonalization and derealization” per se. I won’t be guessing any further, you did say you “did choose impact over thoroughness”. I am happy to talk about the precise objection when you have pinpointed it more informedly and accurately.

No. 3 – this is perfectly understandable. After all, this cage of yours is decorated with posters like “which, […] is, at least, real”, you can’t change human nature, you become derealized when you leave this cage, you will loose all your friends and family and be totally alone in the world – and similar scare stories. And in front the open doors of your cage there are images of AI fiction stories and snapshots of sci-fi films :wink:.

Now tell me Jon, when you have read this post so far, which of your fears has been resolved and which objections remain? It will make the discussion about your objections so much more concise when you are scrupulously honest with yourself, and with your correspondents, honest with yourself with the aim of being sincere (=at root)(*).

(*)[Richard]: The word ‘sincere’ can be traced back to the Latin sincerus, meaning ‘whole’ or ‘pure’ or ‘sound’, and which is arguably derived from the roots ‘sin-’ (one) and ‘crescere’ (to grow) in that the Latin ‘sincerus’ originally referred to a plant which was of pure stock – not a mixture or hybrid – and thus came to mean anything which was genuine (as in ‘true’ or ‘correct’) and not falsified, adulterated, contaminated.
Sincerity is to be in accord with the fact/being aligned with factuality/ staying true to facticity (as in being authentic/ guileless, genuine/ artless, straightforward/ ingenuous). (Richard, Abditorium, sincere)

Btw, it’s more fruitful to examine those fears and objections from a more dispassionate perspective, i.e. after you get back to feeling good first.

Cheers Vineeto

1 Like