Roy's Journal

Journals
1

One day in my life I learned that in the same way that at some point in the past we humans didn’t understand how life starts and explained it in terms of a mysterious life force that existed in the universe but now we know that it isn’t like that, that in fact there are systems - complex systems - in place that allow for life to happen, we are in the same situation in what pertains to consciousness - I thought it was something out of this physical world while in fact scientists are demonstrating that it is purely physical and maybe even deterministic - a complex set of physical systems and maybe a chaotic determinism that we can only ever experience as indeterministic - but still nothing more than material. At this point I started asking myself why exactly then do we humans have a consciousness in the first place. Turns out some scientists think we have evolved a consciousness for the same reason we have instincts. We have many different instincts but it all boils down to survival and reproduction (and even reproduction is survival of the genes). Even the fact that we humans are undeniably social - for longer than we have acquired a consciousness even - is because we needed that to survive. We are less weak when we form a pack. So why do I feel so conflicted inside if my biology is so simple and has a single clear goal. I started to think about the religion that had been with me from such an early age and all the morals and the ethics and the beliefs that have accumulated all my life and the inferiority complex that I exhibit when I’m with others and the superiority complex I manifest with I’m by myself and started to understand that I’ve lived more than thirty years of my life without having an actual original thought. I just regurgitated what I picked up from everyone else around me. I started to think that we don’t need that anymore. That our gods were really fake gods of the gaps and that at this point there are very few gaps in what regards to the human being and its condition. I realized that god is indeed dead and that we - more specifically scientists - did indeed kill it and that that’s ok. I thought about a video I had watched about nietzsche and his theory of perspectivism - each human sees things from their own perspectives but that doesn’t mean there isn’t an actual objective reality - and that train of thought lead me to a quote from a movie that appeared to me once by ways of the youtube algorithm after I finished watching yet another video about the teachings of yet another old philosophy - it was from fight club where brad pitt’s character said to norton’s character something along the lines of “self-improvement is masturbation while self-destruction on the other hand…”. Indeed I was learning techniques from these ancient greek philosophies to improve myself but just like masturbation this was nothing more than temporary relief from what was the real issue. I thought about the moments - in all regards perfect - that I had experienced that were tainted by my insecurities and my constant self-conscious thoughts. I realized that it was me that was always on the way. I gave up on philosophies and started focusing only on modern psychology - mainly adlerian psychology - and later started exploring things like the theory of flux. Indeed I had experienced something in the past somewhat like that where time seemed infinite and there was clarity and I was happy for the lack of a better word - a pure and lightweight experience where everything seemed so clear and myself seemed somehow absent of it - and I started trying to mimic that. It was in a birthday party with people that I mostly didn’t know when I started feeling anxious again and worthless that I took refuge next to the children with the excuse of keeping an eye on them. I remembered that while they are not innocent - in some ways vicious and violent - they have this pure honesty - which I now have better word for - being naive and ingenious - and were somehow able to be in a state of marvelous playfulness disconnected from everything else, in the present moment. I realized that I too could be more like that and in this same event I just changed my way of being and realized that people around me suddenly were more in reach - that I had stopped being an actor and suddenly I was able to really connect with people (some of them - others it became even clearer that their sophisticated behavior was serving them some purpose and it looked silly and I wanted no part in it). I became obsessed with removing myself from the situations. I gave up on the self-help philosophies and focused on destroying things that defined me without being too drastic so as to not alarm anyone. I gave up on digital social networks and started analyzing friendships to see which were real and which were mutual-ego-masturbation. I understood that many projects I contributed to were not altruistic like I made it look like but actually self centered - the positive benefits they had on society were a byproduct but not the actual goal. I could now continue doing the same exact things I was doing but now with the clarity of purer intentions. As I started to change, my close relationships started reshaping and common problems started disappearing very rapidly. It was surprising how it looked like my partner and family suddenly changed to this happier and simpler and opener version of themselves. I was the problem all along and I understand now the meaning of the saying that you can only change others by changing yourself. In this process I also started to become more interested in others not for the sake of manipulating them or because it felt like that’s what they wanted me to do but because I was genuinely interested in them - I could only think about others once I stopped thinking about myself all the time. It’s not all roses though. I’m not free or actually free or virtually free. Even just today I was lunching with a former colleague and his coworker and they started asking some specifics about my current job and I didn’t know so I started babbling nonsense and full of anxiety and physically blushing and sweating and on the way home I just asked myself “what the hell happened” and what happened was that I wasn’t honest. I could have simply said “I have no idea” and that was fine because that’s a fact and because no one cares. It doesn’t matter and that isn’t who I am and it doesn’t matter who I am it only matters what I am which is a decaying physical body which may seem depressing but is not because while my time on earth is limited I have nothing else that I’m required to accomplish or that I need to do in my life so I have all the time in my life to enjoy what surrounds me and it is such a wonderful day today!

Ps: needless to say that these realizations were only possible because at some point I stumbled upon this website actualfreedom.com.au and the writings of a man named Richard but more importantly the writings of a woman named Vineeto which connected with me in a way like nothing I’ve read before. I wish I could be physically near her so I could hug her and thank her. But at first I read the website only to dismiss it completely - it happened multiple times. Somehow - as meaningful these writings were - I felt the need to reject them. But later, experiences would always lead me to realize things that had been written on the website in clear and simple words all along. Now I’ve spent many hours reading the pages yet it seems it is never ending and that I’ve only scratched the surface - seems like I’ve only read 1%. I think it is taking me longer because I’m not always ready to understand what is being said. I keep reading the same pages but I focus on different aspects of it every time. Now I’m a bit worried that once I read new things on the website I’ll disagree with them but of course that may happen and it’s fine. I’ve had some glimpses of it in this forum when I skimmed through some discussions about politics and climate change and smoking (?) - facts are facts but it takes a lot of time and energy to do the research and so I’m not interested in dedicating time right now to those topics. And of course we are humans and most of us not free - to make things worse - and I’m wrong so many times and so I can be again and others can also be too and that’s fine because this is not a cult and I can and must make up my own mind about things and think for myself - thankfully, gone is the time that I wasn’t aware that was the case.

6 Likes
2

Hi @roy welcome to the forum!

It’s so nice to read your post which clearly shows your sincere desire to discover and understand the facts of life.

This is a great thing to discover, and the more you begin to investigate the various aspects of ‘human wisdom’ you will see that no area is exempt from essentially parroting ancient nonsense, including philosophy, psychology, sociology, science etc.

It should be Richard to be credited with once and for all ‘killing god’ :grin: He was the one to dissolve the altered state of consciousness and proceed as a first genuine atheist into Terra Actualis. Most scientists who identify themselves as atheists themselves exist in a worldview that was spawned from spiritual belief, even whilst fighting against it.
Furthermore whilst identifying as atheists, they themselves still have a soul, or to be more precise they are their soul, which is what ‘being’ a feeling being inhabiting a flesh and blood body is all about. As long as the soul persists illusion/delusion will persist in some degree, hence it took Richard to dissolve both the ego and the soul to put a genuine end to God in any of ‘his’ permutations.

3 Likes
3

Thanks for your reply @Kub933! It took me back to the website to re-read the definition of soul in the glossary and I ended up finding a page there that I hadn’t read before written by feeling-being Peter about the soul. I usually dislike words like ego and soul because they are filled with different meanings for different people but I guess it is that way with every word. Having said that I am grateful for the work of Richard and others that compiled all this information - it must have taken a lot of effort and dedication to explain all of it in a way that is suitable to an audience as large as the human race. Many times the reason I end up disagreeing with the things I read ends up being because I am giving them different meanings related to my experience. I have come to realize that two people can be disagreeing about a topic and turns out they are communicating the exact same idea but in ways that seem contradictory and no matter how many dictionaries we have or how many words we use to define each word we simply don’t all share the same understanding of what those words mean. The importance of words and their meanings becomes even clearer when we think about the fact that most of us think in words - verbal language. How can my thoughts be clear if I’m using unclear language in the first place? And yet as imperfect as verbal language may be we’ve nothing better to replace it with. The way I work around it is by reading - and reading again - until the meaning sticks and concepts become clearer and I continue working from there.

2 Likes
4

Yes and actualism being something entirely new to human experience it requires a rather precise vocabulary to accurately convey. This is something you will find Richard was certainly an expert at!
Yet being meticulous with one’s words is an expression of caring and consideration for one’s fellow human beings, as there is enough confusion going around already.

Bearing in mind that the words describing actuality are words describing that which genuinely/factually exists whereas words describing ‘reality’ are describing a vast illusory construct where ‘humanity’ exists, then it certainly makes sense to put great care and consideration into one’s writing.

The words soul and ego are used as they are familiar to most people from various walks of life. They refer to the make up of one’s identity - the ‘thinker’ in the head and the ‘feeling being’ in the heart. Regardless of one’s views (whether one identities as a spiritualist or a materialist) the fact remains that a ‘normal’ human being not only has a soul and ego but they are ‘their’ soul and ego (a ‘thinker’ in the head and a ‘feeling being’ in the heart).

2 Likes
5

Hi @Roy,

Welcome to the forum, I do enjoy your introduction.

Ps: needless to say that these realizations were only possible because at some point I stumbled upon this website actualfreedom.com.au and the writings of a man named Richard but more importantly the writings of a woman named Vineeto which connected with me in a way like nothing I’ve read before. I wish I could be physically near her so I could hug her and thank her.

Thank you for your appreciation for ‘Vineeto’s’ writings. When I became actually free I was consequently quite suss of the words feeling being ‘Vineeto’ had written, and not sure if they were not misleading, so I am pleased you found them useful. Keep in mind though that they were written by a feeling being and thus could contain inaccurate information as well as helpful hints.

But at first I read the website only to dismiss it completely – it happened multiple times. Somehow – as meaningful these writings were – I felt the need to reject them. But later, experiences would always lead me to realize things that had been written on the website in clear and simple words all along.

I do like your honesty and sense of humour … and your persistence to come back to reading again after first dismissals. It bodes well for your further discoveries about of how to even more enjoy and appreciate being alive. (link)

Now I’ve spent many hours reading the pages yet it seems it is never ending and that I’ve only scratched the surface - seems like I’ve only read 1%. I think it is taking me longer because I’m not always ready to understand what is being said. I keep reading the same pages but I focus on different aspects of it every time. Now I’m a bit worried that once I read new things on the website I’ll disagree with them but of course that may happen and it’s fine.

It does serve you well to read Richard’s words more than once, there is so much to discover that is new to human consciousness. ‘Vineeto’ used to say that after the first few weeks of listening to Richard, reading his words, especially regarding the effects of any and all attempts to fit this totally new paradigm into ‘her’ existing mindset were having, ‘she’ explained to Richard the process as being … (1.) as if ‘her’ brain was being turned upside-down … and how (2.) ‘she’ was having to relearn how to think all over again.

So yes, it often took ‘her’ a few repeated readings of his words before it clicked and often ‘she’ would find new insights and unexpected gems. That is one of the reasons why you will find many repetitions on the website.

I can and must make up my own mind about things and think for myself – thankfully, gone is the time that I wasn’t aware that was the case.

Oh yes, that is essential, and the best way to do this is to verify it with you own experiential understanding. I remember well that a lot of things fell into place when ‘Vineeto’ had ‘her’ first major pure consciousness experience (link), it was the essential breakthrough to be able to begin to “think for myself” in regards to the radical, life-changing third alternative of actuality that was being presented in contrast to being either spiritual or materialistic.

Let me know if you would like some clarification on anything written on the AFT website, I am probably the only person, who has read everything Richard has ever written.

Cheers Vineeto

PS: I just re-read the first part of your introduction and it occurred to me that you might be interested in this correspondence (Mark) who had similar intelligent questions as you reported.

3 Likes
6

Wow doesn’t that put the caring and consideration into perspective! I think most of us here can appreciate what an enormous amount of information that is to go over :exploding_head:

3 Likes
7

Vineeto: Let me know if you would like some clarification on anything written on the AFT website, I am probably the only person, who has read everything Richard has ever written.

Kuba: Wow doesn’t that put the caring and consideration into perspective! I think most of us here can appreciate what an enormous amount of information that is to go over

Hi @Kuba,

I appreciate you saying this. You probably have a point but I didn’t or don’t experience it that way, lol.

The first time ‘I’ read his words online when they came into my mailbox and ‘I’ was always vitally interested what he would say next. Then ‘I’ read them again when ‘I’ posted them on the website (after a while Richard had ceded that job to ‘me’ as he was too busy writing). When Richard went to India for 6 months I went through a lot of his writing again (creating tooltips instead of the multiple footnotes) because I was somewhat puzzled after becoming actually free while some essential qualities he had reported/ described were missing (not being fully free yet).

And nowadays, after Richard’s death, it’s my favourite past-time to read the website again, finding suitable quotes or just gems and enjoying the brilliance and to-the-point replies he gave to his respondents. Of course, caring is part of the enjoyment, it comes with the territory (of Terra Actualis). :blush:

Cheers Vineeto

4 Likes
8

Thank you again both for your comments @Kub933 and @Vineeto! I’m a bit behind my readings but I look forward to reading that correspondence with Mark once I have some quiet time alone again. I’ll leave this here which I wrote this morning:

For reasons that are not relevant, some days ago I had to climb to a roof with my father and I started shaking and my heart started racing. My father noticed this and asked since when was I afraid of heights because he knows that when I was a child I loved climbing trees and being in high places had never been an issue. Indeed I asked myself the same question! Somehow I became an adult with fear of heights. The next day we once again had to climb to the roof but this time I was prepared - I remembered a report from feeling being Vineeto and I was determined to simply observe what my mind would do this time and for my surprise it simply… didn’t do anything. The trembling and the heart racing didn’t even start and it was as if I was taking a walk in the park. This was yet another experience where it was obvious that my mind was sabotaging me to keep me from moving forward - to force me to be in a place of sameness. This culminated in these two recurring thoughts: (1) there’s a world out there beyond me and the reason I can’t reach it is simply because my mind doesn’t want me to; (2) this doesn’t only happen to me - each person is an evolved animal that is suffering from this same condition and this is hurting us all - it is the underlying cause of human suffering and I sensed some urgency because I truly believe we collectively need to understand that we need to take this leap and become free of the human condition because otherwise this big brain of ours will continue taking us in this path of war against each other and against earth itself until we become extinct.

4 Likes
9

Thanks for posting @roy, I will just highlight the below as there is some of that ‘human wisdom’ which needs to be put under the microscope there :

This is the kind of flavour of evolutionary psychology that would deem the mind/brain to be at fault, as it evolved only to serve our brute survival and reproduction.

Interestingly enough it is actually the other way around! It is not the mind/brain leading ‘us’ (humanity) astray. Rather it is ‘me’ (the identity) which is as if a parasite inhabiting this flesh and blood body and thus leading this mind/brain astray. In a PCE ‘I’ go into abeyance and then finally this mind/brain is able to operate freely, with amazing clarity.

So in actualism it is not the mind/brain that needs to change, rather it is ‘me’ that is discovered to be the cause of all the problems.

Richard wrote that the identity is extremely cunning, and what better way to hide ‘myself’ than to reverse the order of operations, then the blame can be shifted where ‘I’ cannot be found.

3 Likes
10

I get what you are saying! I finally finished reading the article Vineeto linked to, the correspondence with Mark and it found it to be very insightful too. Thanks again.

3 Likes
11

Today I became frustrated because it seems I’m not going anywhere near being free of this constant thinking about myself. The root of my problems - I believe - is this constant self-centeredness in this identity I call myself. I can’t take words on the website and have them present in my thoughts because they are not my words - they are not even in my mother tongue - and I think in words in my mother tongue - I don’t think in english - and things get a bit lost in translation - so I decided to ignore all of it once again and go for a walk in the woods and clear my mind. I took my shoes off and the question that came up was Who Am I? Immediately I thought about the writings of Peter about Who I am vs What I am and started trying to recall what the page said and reached for my phone and thought - stop - think for yourself! Who am I? I am a father - this for some reason was the first answer that came up. But I’ve not always been a father so that means that I was not always the same I? So let me ask these three questions instead - Who am I? Who was I? Who will I be? Is there a single answer for all those three? I am, was and will be a son. But does that actually define me? Why am I defining myself in relation to others? I am, I was and will be a human. But what does that even mean? We’re all human. What makes this human different from the other humans? I’m always me. No. I change through time. I’m different according to circumstances. What is this me? Who am I? Who was I? Who will I be? Am I the witness? Am I the awareness of a body? But isn’t it a fact that consciousness is material and one with the body? I read the science! I can’t exist without the body. I’m this body that is alive? And by being alive it is conscious? Who am I? Who was I? Who will I be? Maybe I am simply a body that is aware of itself… For now.

I read the website and I learn nothing. It’s all there. It is basic. But I read it and nothing sticks. Am I blocking it because I can’t accept it? I can’t accept the fact that I’m living an illusion?

12

Roy: … some days ago I had to climb to a roof with my father and I started shaking and my heart started racing. My father noticed this and asked since when was I afraid of heights because he knows that when I was a child I loved climbing trees and being in high places had never been an issue. Indeed I asked myself the same question! Somehow I became an adult with fear of heights. The next day we once again had to climb to the roof but this time I was prepared – I remembered a report from feeling being Vineeto and I was determined to simply observe what my mind would do this time and for my surprise it simply … didn’t do anything. The trembling and the heart racing didn’t even start and it was as if I was taking a walk in the park. This was yet another experience where it was obvious that my mind was sabotaging me to keep me from moving forward – to force me to be in a place of sameness.

Hi Roy,

A great story what attentiveness can do. Being aware in advance of any potential feelings prevented them from occurring. :blush:

Kuba already pointed out that ‘mind’ is not only comprised of thought but the primary reaction comes from the instinctual passions (and the feeling being/identity formed thereof). Thoughts only kick in when the brain is already flooded with feeling-induced hormones for the ‘quick and dirty’ instinctual response (12 milli seconds for feelings, 24 milli seconds for thoughts).

‘Peter’ and ‘Vineeto’ produced several illustrative diagrams (Library, Brainschemes) to explain this effect, which Joseph LeDoux had confirmed with his laboratory experiments. You can also look at it from the evolutionary standpoint that a baby is born with feelings while their thought processes develop much later.

The ‘mind’ has not only been much maligned in the spiritual arena, it has also been imbued with divine powers according to the belief that consciousness creates matter – in other words ‘mind’ is a multi-faceted word.

While the mind the one hand “can be a fertile breeding-ground for hallucinations, for emotional and passionate thought” (link), it is on the other hand “the most marvellous tool possible … it can get you out of the mess that is the Human Condition with remarkable alacrity” (link). It depends on your own discerning intelligence.

Here is how the one dictionary describes it –

‘mind: 1. The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination. 2. The collective conscious and unconscious processes in a sentient organism that direct and influence mental and physical behaviour. 3. The principle of intelligence; the spirit of consciousness regarded as an aspect of reality. 4. The faculty of thinking, reasoning, and applying knowledge’. (The American Heritage® Dictionary).

Attentiveness (link), especially affective attentiveness, (which you employed on the roof the other day) can help you sort out feelings from facts and emotions from cognitive thoughts and will allow you to slowly find out how your mind ticks.

Roy: I sensed some urgency because I truly believe we collectively need to understand that we need to take this leap and become free of the human condition because otherwise this big brain of ours will continue taking us in this path of war against each other and against earth itself until we become extinct.

While you are correct in understanding that it is vitally important to “become free of the human condition”, this is an action which can only be done individually, unilaterally, because the only person you can, and need to, change is yourself. Nobody likes to be changed, that would only cause resentment and conflict, hence everyone has to do this for themselves if and when they are ready.

Many people have fallen for various doomsday predictions (link) that the human race will become extinct (and there have been plenty in the past centuries as well) but so far the instincts for the survival of the species have prevented any final catastrophe.

There is no point in allowing an understandable but automatic fear-response to prevent you from doing all you can yourself to become free from the human condition at your own pace.

It’s a grand adventure, and while all the wars and suicides and murders and domestic violence plus the awareness of your personal malice and sorrow provide the backpressure, the magnificence of the actual infinite universe will pull you from ahead.

Cheers Vineeto

2 Likes
13

Roy: Today I became frustrated because it seems I’m not going anywhere near being free of this constant thinking about myself. […]
I read the website and I learn nothing. It’s all there. It is basic. But I read it and nothing sticks. Am I blocking it because I can’t accept it? I can’t accept the fact that I’m living an illusion?

Hi @Roy
It is very difficult to accept as a concept that you are “living an illusion” until you have experienced an alternative, i.e. an experience of the actual world called pure consciousness experience.

Richard: What I usually say is that there is sufficient information available on The Actual Freedom Trust web site to establish a prima-facie case worthy of further investigation – rather than capricious dismissal as having all been said before – and thus (intellectually) find out what actualism is on about … and then see what happens.
In other words: what one can do is make a critical examination of all the words I advance so as to ascertain if they be intrinsically self-explanatory … and only when they are seen to be inherently consistent with what is being spoken about, then the facts speak for themselves. Then one will have reason to remember a pure conscious experience (PCE), which all peoples I have spoken to at length have had, and thus verify by direct experience the facticity of what is written.
Then it is the PCE that is one’s lodestone or guiding light … not me or my words. My words then offer confirmation … and affirmation in that a fellow human being has safely walked this wide and wondrous path.

Cheers Vineeto

1 Like
14

Hi everyone that reads this. I hope things are going well with you. I just wanted to add a quick update to this journal. I’ve been feeling good for most of the time lately.

The problem I was trying to resolve was the fact that I thought too much about myself all the time. These thoughts were mostly about the future, so they were basically just worrying about the future. It’s hard to experience the present moment when you are lost in thoughts…

I realized that most people in this forum had past experiences with spirituality and found out it was not the answer, but maybe it was a necessary step for them in the journey. I always dismissed in my life everything that was about spiritual experiences, but this time I ended up doing some very basic meditation for the first time in my life. Just sitting and seeing what happens, and it seems the problem is the lack of attention. After a month I finally internalized what I think people mean by “you are not your thoughts”. I’m not my thoughts in the sense that I don’t seem to consciously create them. They appear out of the blue and there’s nothing I have to do about it. And by internalizing this now I know I don’t need to engage with them. They show up and… here they are… and then I can pay attention to them and let them go. This not only gives me a lot of peace and relief but my bad moods now also start and end a lot quicker. Because these negative feelings seem to always be a consequence of these thoughts, which I now am able to dismiss. I can’t prevent them from showing up, but I don’t have to entertain them. So I still feel anger, fear, etc. but I return to a state of feeling good and in peace more quickly.

One thing however is that during the day, I feel a lot better but it doesn’t feel like a PCE, because I’m “aware that I’m aware”, if that makes sense? I’m not absorbed in the moment – I consciously choose to be engaged with the moment. In PCEs everything happens automatically without me intervening. At the end of a PCE, it feels like I didn’t choose anything consciously — things happened without consciously thinking? I wonder if with time, it will become “natural” to be present in the moment without putting any conscious effort into it.

As usual I write this and don’t edit or sit on it too much so I can be a bit more honest with myself…

15

Hi Roy,

Nice to see your post. It is indicative of an engagement with your life and seeking to improve it, which energy can be highly fruitful if brought to bear in a sensible direction.

That being said, many an alarm bell is ringing for me when I read your post, not least of which because I have much experience with spirituality in my background and can attest to just how insidiously deleterious it is, not just towards progress with actualism, but even with having a normal life.

If you are indeed feeling good most of the time, that is great, however as you’ve identified the problems as ‘thoughts’, something is not quite right…

Ah, unfortunately you did not heed the warnings! Ah well. Some people have to experience it for themselves to see why it does not work. But now that you have begun meditating, you will have to put some effort into digging yourself out of it. The sooner you stop, the easier it will be.

Humm… what “problem” is it that is caused by “lack of attention”?

Because the goal of actualism is the same as the means, namely, enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive. And the cause of this is not “lack of attention”, but rather nothing other than ‘me’ not enjoying being alive. The specific causes or reasons ‘I’ am not currently enjoying being alive, vary with each individual, although they do fit into broad categories. But the tool to facilitate the method is to pinpoint specifically what trigger led to feeling bad, which will result in the resumption of feeling good.

And here is where you have embarked upon a highly dangerous path – literally dangerous, dangerous for your sanity and health – as you are now starting to consciously dissociate from yourself.

The way it works is that who ‘you’ are, at ‘your’ root, is ‘your’ very soul. The soul is the seat of the emotions, and the movement of these emotions is what ‘you’ are – those very emotions themselves.

The ‘ego’, where thinking mostly happens, is built on top of this soul/arises from it. The ‘ego’ is also part of who ‘you’ are. The ego-driven thoughts arise out of this ego which is part of ‘who’ you are – and in turn ‘your’ ego/‘you’-as-ego arises out of ‘you’-as-soul, which is why a powerful emotional reaction can influence thoughts so heavily. Yet as ‘you’ are both ‘your’ ego and ‘your’ soul, ‘you’ as ego can also influence ‘your’ soul which is why you can talk yourself down from intense emotions.

By saying that “you are not your thoughts” you are essentially saying that “you” are not ‘your’ ego nor ‘your’ soul, as that is where the thoughts are arising out of. In other words, ‘you’ are denying ‘who’ you are.

The result of this can be disastrous, and the deeper you go into spirituality and meditation, the more disastrous it will be.

And yet this is directly opposite of the actualism method. Because your thoughts are valuable points as to how you are feeling and why you are feeling that way. By ignoring them, you are in effect acquiescing to not feeling good, and shoveling any problems under the carpet.

This can lead to a dissociated feeling of Equanimity and Peace if you do it well enough – but such Equanimity is not sustainable without heavily investing into ever-increasingly dissociating from your life. The result is not good, it is not a happy life, it’s a life far worse than normal.

There may be a side-effect of not latching onto your bad moods the way you might be used to in the past, but this is something you can do without dissociating from your thoughts. The long-term result will be clinging to a dissociated state requiring constant meditation to maintain it.

And yet here you have it backwards. Thoughts do not create feelings – rather, feelings create thoughts. The feeling comes first, then the thought comes after.

In other words, something happens in the world, this triggers a feeling-reaction, and the thoughts come afterwards. It is of course possible to think about something that happened in the past and for this to be the trigger. But this is only a subset of triggers, not the entirety.

If you succeed in stopping all thoughts – which is very difficult – you will still have negative feelings. Of course, part of the dissociation is to subsume the negative emotions as if they are just physical sensations, so you may not even realize you are feeling bad anymore! This is not as good as it may sound. You will still be unhappy, but without even knowing why. It is difficult to work oneself out of this state.

You very much can “prevent them from showing up”, by consistently feeling good as a baseline, which is done by engaging with the thoughts and resolving the underlying issues and seeing it’s silly to let whatever it is take away from feeling good. This leads to a sustainable good mood, as you are not having to constantly ignore how you are really feeling, but rather you change how you relate to the world so that it is the natural default to feel good.

Meditation takes you further and further away from a PCE, not closer to it.

The “state of feeling good and in peace” you are experiencing is not what is referred to in actualism as being in a felicitous mood. It will not lead to a PCE.

In a PCE there is certainly an awareness that one is aware – as a flesh and blood body, only, apperceptively. If you are looking for a state where you are not aware that you are aware, a PCE is not it.

That being said, the feeling of being aware, as a feeling-being, is indeed absent – because ‘me’ in ‘my’ entirety is absent.

This is where it’s opportune to point out that “experienc[ing] the present moment” and “be[ing] present in the moment” is diametrically opposed to actualism.

Richard wrote about this in wondrous detail here, which I highly recommend you read: Mailing List 'D' Srinath .

I will leave you with a link to an article I wrote as to why I chose actualism over spirituality. It goes into some detail and will provide you a hint of what awaits you if you choose to continue down the meditative path you’ve started on: Why Actualism? – Actualism Online . This snippet is particularly relevant:

Now you cannot say you haven’t been warned! What you do with this warning, is up to you of course :wink:

Cheers,
Claudiu

5 Likes
16

Hi Claudiu.

So first of all I think it’s my fault for not being more clear about my goals with keeping this journal. With this journal my intent is to explore what is it that I’m experiencing, keep a record of the journey, so I can read back. So I’m not too concerned with my language and if it aligns with how concepts are explained in Actualism. I get that this forum is about Actualism and that clarity of language is important so I’ll see later exactly what that means for me in terms of how I contribute to this forum.

You’ve identified the problems as ‘thoughts’, something is not quite right…

Yes, indeed I think my problem is thoughts but not the existence of thoughts in general, or any type of thoughts: I said the negative thoughts of worrying about the future. This is what I have to deal with, I realize everyone is different, but it appears there’s more people like me.

Ah, unfortunately you did not heed the warnings! Ah well. Some people have to experience it for themselves to see why it does not work. But now that you have begun meditating, you will have to put some effort into digging yourself out of it. The sooner you stop, the easier it will be.

I appreciate your concern but to be honest I feel a bit silly for ignoring the advice of so many other people that say the opposite. Meditation, or I guess mindfullness meditation — which I suppose is somewhat what I’m doing informally — is really helping me and I don’t intend to stop. I realize you may have had other experiences, possibly with other types of meditations. Apparently some people spend literally years repeating the same question or mantras in silent meditation — that’s not what I’m doing and that sort of practice doesn’t seem healthy to me.

Humm… what “problem” is it that is caused by “lack of attention” ?

Sorry, by lack of attention I meant not being fully present and engaged in the present moment. To be able to ask my self the question “how am i experiencing this moment of being alive” at all. I realize this may not be how everyone experiences their day, but I need to make a conscious effort to not engage with all of the repetitive negative train of thoughts that occupy my mind 100% of the time.

the goal of actualism is the same as the means, namely, enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive. And the cause of this is not “lack of attention”, but rather nothing other than ‘me’ not enjoying being alive

I think we may be saying something similar but with different words.

But the tool to facilitate the method is to pinpoint specifically what trigger led to feeling bad, which will result in the resumption of feeling good.

Exactly!

And here is where you have embarked upon a highly dangerous path – literally dangerous, dangerous for your sanity and health – as you are now starting to consciously dissociate from yourself.

The result of this can be disastrous, and the deeper you go into spirituality and meditation, the more disastrous it will be.

You seem concerned and I appreciate that, but on the other hand it sounds a bit alarmist. The meditation I’m doing is about just paying attention to the senses, thoughts and feelings basically.

The way it works is that who ‘you’ are, at ‘your’ root, is ‘your’ very soul. The soul is the seat of the emotions, and the movement of these emotions is what ‘you’ are – those very emotions themselves.

I have to admit I don’t understand everything that you are saying in some parts of your reply.

By saying that “you are not your thoughts” you are essentially saying that “you” are not ‘your’ ego nor ‘your’ soul

No, that’s not what I meant. I’m not saying that thoughts don’t arise from my self. What I mean is, while, sure, these thoughts come from somewhere — and that somewhere must be inside of me — I don’t have to identify with every thought that arises or treat them as valid. The bad thoughts that show up — some reason may exist for them to show up — but they don’t define me. I’m not a bad person simply because I have bad thoughts.

And yet this is directly opposite of the actualism method. Because your thoughts are valuable points as to how you are feeling and why you are feeling that way. By ignoring them, you are in effect acquiescing to not feeling good, and shoveling any problems under the carpet.

I can say from experience that there’s insights to learn from analyzing thoughts. I’m not repressing thoughts neither I’m ignoring them. I simply, in some instances, decide not to engage/fuel them if they are not leading me anywhere (which happens a lot). I don’t think this is in opposition of the actualist method but if it is, then be it.

There may be a side-effect of not latching onto your bad moods the way you might be used to in the past, but this is something you can do without dissociating from your thoughts. The long-term result will be clinging to a dissociated state requiring constant meditation to maintain it.

I think you are reading things in my words that I didn’t meant. I said “i’m not my thoughts” which you wrote as “dissociating from my thoughts”, but that framing is different from what I had in mind. “Dissociation” reads to me as avoidance, which is not what I’m doing. I’m not trying to suppress thoughts.

You very much can “prevent them from showing up”

I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think is actually possible to avoid negative thoughts completely.

Consistently feeling good as a baseline, which is done by engaging with the thoughts and resolving the underlying issues

Do you actually engage with all the thoughts you have? That’s what I did and it is not helpful for me. It is, as I realize now, the reason for me to be completely unable to experience the present moment.

If you are looking for a state where you are not aware that you are aware, a PCE is not it. That being said, the feeling of being aware, as a feeling-being, is indeed absent.

Ok, I wrote “aware that I’m aware” but “felling of being aware” may be a better way to put it. I still think what I experienced multiple times are PCEs.

The way it works is that who ‘you’ are, at ‘your’ root, is ‘your’ very soul. The soul is the seat of the emotions, and the movement of these emotions is what ‘you’ are – those very emotions themselves.

The ‘ego’, where thinking mostly happens, is built on top of this soul/arises from it.

And yet here you have it backwards. Thoughts do not create feelings – rather, feelings create thoughts. The feeling comes first, then the thought comes after.

I don’t mean to be rude, but when I read some of the things you wrote it reminded me of a jehovah’s witness with whom I spent 5 months learning the bible some years ago. He was so sure of what he was saying about god, afterlife, etc… While I didn’t agree with him, I had to recognize that I can’t say for sure that those things are false either. It made me realize I need to have the humility to recognize that I may be wrong. I think there was a bit of dismissiveness in how you approached my experience and my progress. You seem very certain of your perspective, and while I think some things you said can’t really be said with full certainty today, I definitely trust that your intentions are good.

17

Why couldn’t you? Genuinely.

Is it because there is no observation or experiment that will falsify their statement?

I think you were onto something when you begun to doubt him :slight_smile:

18

Roy: Hi everyone that reads this. I hope things are going well with you. I just wanted to add a quick update to this journal. I’ve been feeling good for most of the time lately.
The problem I was trying to resolve was the fact that I thought too much about myself all the time. These thoughts were mostly about the future, so they were basically just worrying about the future. It’s hard to experience the present moment when you are lost in thoughts…
I realized that most people in this forum had past experiences with spirituality and found out it was not the answer, but maybe it was a necessary step for them in the journey. I always dismissed in my life everything that was about spiritual experiences, but this time I ended up doing some very basic meditation for the first time in my life. Just sitting and seeing what happens, and it seems the problem is the lack of attention. After a month I finally internalized what I think people mean by “you are not your thoughts”. I’m not my thoughts in the sense that I don’t seem to consciously create them. They appear out of the blue and there’s nothing I have to do about it. And by internalizing this now I know I don’t need to engage with them. They show up and… here they are… and then I can pay attention to them and let them go. This not only gives me a lot of peace and relief but my bad moods now also start and end a lot quicker. Because these negative feelings seem to always be a consequence of these thoughts, which I now am able to dismiss. I can’t prevent them from showing up, but I don’t have to entertain them. So I still feel anger, fear, etc. but I return to a state of feeling good and in peace more quickly.

Hi Roy,

Welcome back.

Because you decided to try out spirituality and now believe that “because these negative feelings seem to always be a consequence of these thoughts” – let me acquaint you with some fact which perhaps spirituality (which has a history of 3000-5000 years) has not yet taken on board –

• [Richard]: This seat-of-the-emotions ‘soul-self’ or ‘spirit-self’ – an instinctual ‘self’ born of an amorphous affective ‘presence’ in utero, an inchoate intuitive ‘being’ in vivo, which the genetically endowed instinctual passions (such as fear and aggression and nurture and desire) instinctively form themselves into just as, analogously, a vortex or eddy forming itself vortically as whirling air or swirling water does – is not to be confused with the ego-self (an affective-cum-cognitive entity).

The ego-self arises out of the ‘soul-self’ or ‘spirit-self’, somewhere around age two, as the doer of all affective-psychic eventful experience (a.k.a. the ‘thinker’), as opposed to the beer of all affective-psychic experiencing (a.k.a. the ‘feeler’), and is, typically, experienceable as situate in the head, rather than in the heart region from whence it arose, immediately behind the forehead at a midpoint just above the eyes.

Furthermore, the ego-self is not the social identity-cum-cultural conscience and/or inwit as, by and large, not until approximately seven years of age does a child know the basic difference between what each particular society and culture regards as ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, or ‘good’ and ‘bad’, or ‘appropriate’ and ‘inappropriate’, and the parents’ attitude reflects this (as is evidenced in a parent taking the child to task with an oft-repeated “you ought to know better by now”).

Thus the socio-cultural identity is overlaid, via socialisation and culturalisation, over both the ego-self and the soul-self – as an incorporeal cultural conscience or social guardian … [emphasis added] (Richard, the Formation and Persistence of Social Identity).

Just to be clear, this is not only something Richard says but it has been verified by scientific experiments by Joseph LeDoux, that sensory input comes first, thoughtless emotional response comes second (12 milliseconds after the sensory input) and thoughtful instinctual-emotional response comes third (24 milliseconds after sensory input). (Library, Topics, Brainschemes).

As such negative thoughts are obviously a consequence of negative feelings/instinctual passions.

Roy: One thing however is that during the day, I feel a lot better but it doesn’t feel like a PCE, because I’m “aware that I’m aware”, if that makes sense? I’m not absorbed in the moment – I consciously choose to be engaged with the moment. In PCEs everything happens automatically without me intervening. At the end of a PCE, it feels like I didn’t choose anything consciously — things happened without consciously thinking? I wonder if with time, it will become “natural” to be present in the moment without putting any conscious effort into it.
As usual I write this and don’t edit or sit on it too much so I can be a bit more honest with myself… (link)

So that you don’t confuse a PCE with other choiceless or thoughtless happenings, and thus miss out on the genuine experience of perfection – here is one description of a PCE –

Richard: A peak experience (PCE) is when everything is seen to be already perfect – it always has been and always will be – and that ‘I’, the self, have been standing in the way of the perfection being apparent. Normally the mind perceives through the senses and sorts the data received according to its predilection; but the mind itself remains unperceived … it is taken to be unknowable. In a PCE there is apperception operating. Apperception happens when the ‘who’ inside abdicates its throne and a pure awareness occurs. The PCE is as if one has eyes in the back of one’s head; there is a three hundred and sixty degree awareness and all is self-evidently clear. This is knowing by direct experience, unmediated by any ‘who’ whatsoever. One is able to see that the ‘who’ of one has been standing in the way of the perfection and purity that is the essential nature of this moment of being here becoming apparent. Here a solid and irrefutable native intelligence can operate freely because the ‘thinker’ and the ‘feeler’ are extirpated.

Then what one is (‘what’ not ‘who’) is these sense organs in operation: this seeing is me, this hearing is me, this tasting is me, this touching is me, this smelling is me, and this thinking is me. Whereas ‘I’, the identity, am inside the body: looking out through ‘my’ eyes as if looking out through a window, listening through ‘my’ ears as if they were microphones, tasting through ‘my’ tongue, touching through ‘my’ skin, smelling through ‘my’ nose, and thinking through ‘my’ brain. Of course ‘I’ must feel isolated, alienated, alone and lonely, for ‘I’ am cut off from the magnificence of the world as-it-is (the actual world) by ‘my’ very presence. (Richard, List B, No. 20, 15 Feb 1998).

And here is another sent in today by a forum-member –

JesusCarlos: I remember a wonderful moment in particular during that PCE. My gaze was fixed on the horizon, far away, and beyond the horizon, towards what was no longer visible. A thought associated with infinity arose: what I really am has the capacity to see very far, further than what is considered normal. This is its true capacity. To be able to see beyond the present, towards the enormous and infinite of this vast universe. And with that gaze, to look again at the immediate: there was perfection. (link)

Cheers Vineeto

19

Why couldn’t you? Genuinely.

I think to be genuinely honest that, even if I had definite proof in my hand that he’s wrong, it would be really hard to me to tell him that as I tend to avoid conflict at all cost.

Just to be clear, this is not only something Richard says but it has been verified by scientific experiments by Joseph LeDoux, that sensory input comes first, thoughtless emotional response comes second (12 milliseconds after the sensory input) and thoughtful instinctual-emotional response comes third (24 milliseconds after sensory input). (Library, Topics, Brainschemes).

As such negative thoughts are obviously a consequence of negative feelings/instinctual passions.

This is not the first time you share LeDoux with me and I actually read some of his work thanks to you. What I’ve read from him and other research matches my experience: there is instinctual passions and emotions prior to thought, it is very clear to me. But there are also negative feelings as the result of conscious thought.

So that you don’t confuse a PCE with other choiceless or thoughtless happenings, and thus miss out on the genuine experience of perfection – here is one description of a PCE –

Yes, I have read this before too and it matches my experience (what Richard said but not what Jesus said). Again, I used the wrong language.

After reading your replies I realize now that this is probably not the best place for me to share my experiences. There’s growing scientifically evidence of benefits of simple mindfulness meditation. And again, the language here is important — different people call it different things. I’m simply taking some time to sit, focus on my breath and then observe my senses, thoughts and feelings. It is helping me. But I don’t think you are interested in what I have to say at this point.

I appreciate the time you have spent replying to my post though and I wish you well. I think this may be it for me regarding my contributions to the forum.

1 Like
20

Just to conclude, as I didn’t thank you earlier for sharing your journey. Indeed I think I understand your situation a little better now. We are very different people, with very different experiences. I don’t think I would ever do psychedelics or go that route as I worry that these spiritual experiences could actually do permanent damage to my brain. I have a family, I can’t realy go on that type of dangerous adventure.