Hunterad's journal

Journals
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I am going to try making monthly reports with the hope that my reports will be more understandable. I generally tend toward spur of the moment, stream of consciousness reporting that may be harder to understand and less useful both to me and others. Giving more time between reports allows me to be a bit more circumspect when estimating progress as well. I’m still hoping for some responses and discussions between reports so feel free to chime in any thoughts :]

March Report:

I have certainly enjoyed the last month more than the past few months preceding. My primary changes during this month have been on getting back to feeling good before investigating triggers as well as spending more time undistracted to practice actualism in. I’ve spent far less time on video games and other entertainment and more time on trying to have a PCE or EE. I have also tried to do both simultaneously but it often feels like it makes way more sense to just sit/walk and do nothing else. I think this is because I have more confidence now in my ability to improve my baseline and get to experience EEs, im genuinely excited to use my free time in a focused way to pursue this for hours every day.

I still struggle with getting back to feeling good at times though. There was a 2 day period where I never got back to feeling good for more than 20 minutes, I kept moving back into worry. It didn’t end until the second night in a state of exhaustion I was essentially too tired to keep justifying worrying about what was bothering me. It was clear to me that there was nothing constructive to be gained by worrying while falling asleep and I started feeling good, I then awoke the next day feeling great.

I’m not really sure what exactly changes in those moments before I genuinely start shifting to feeling good. Current goal is to figure that out. Best guess is that it’s more to do with no longer fueling the feeling, and allowing the natural pull towards simple pleasantness and harmony take the wheel.

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I feel good as a natural background when there is less fear, less ‘me’

That’s why triggers are investigated, so they have less strength. Feeling good happens as a default when ‘I’ am not happening - or weakened.

I had an experience last night that made this very clear to me: as soon as my trigger was seen as silly, I immediately felt good for no ‘reason’

My trigger seems to be a sense of meaninglessness

Due to being alone

Not sure what to ‘do with myself’

My current activity (sitting by myself, making tea, watching a hockey game) is ‘meaningless’ - to me - compared to a social pursuit with a woman

There is no woman present and I don’t see anything sensible to do, right now, in that vein

So it’s just a fantasy

Feeling meaningless isn’t sensible

This is bizarre, it was so solid for most of the afternoon

And now it’s not there

I’m just sitting doing ‘nothing’ and it’s lovely

Uncaused enjoyment

It went from a very thick sense of ‘meaninglessness’ which I had never succeeded in penetrating, to as palpable a purity as I’ve experienced in awhile just from that removal

(note: I didn’t write it down above, but I did get back to feeling good before the investigation. Then, when I saw the silliness, the purity came in)

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Thanks for that perspective, i recognize that experience you describe and I think you’re right that it comes down to strength/weakness or presence/absence of me.

Let me try to describe my stream of consciousness of attempting to get back to feeling good and failing…

  1. I’m feeling kinda shitty, it seems like “bobby” thinks I’m a slimy jerk and he doesn’t trust me… it’s making me wonder “am I really just fooling myself, maybe he’s right”

  2. Okayyyy, I can see that’s really bothering me and there’s plenty to unpack, let’s maybe get back to feeling good, I can figure out what’s going on once I’m in that state.

  3. Hmmmm remember feeling good? Remember how pleasant it is, and how benevolent? Like the other day when i woke up with the gentle morning light with no worries weighing me down whatsoever? Ah yeaaa let’s do that it’s so much better.

  4. Feelings starting to shift a bit towards felicity/innocuity

  5. Ok ok thats good, now look out the window, how incredible this large pine tree just standing totally still in cold misting rain, and how warm it is here on the couch.

  6. Feelings still sort of shifting, but an undercurrent of anxiety coming in

  7. Ok I think it’s working? or am I just repressing my feelings? How did I resolve that important issue with “bobby?” Aren’t I just ignoring it?

Those steps 6 and 7 also happen as an undercurrent during the 1 through 5 part. Still contemplating more on what makes it so hard at times to cut 6/7 out of the mix… whereas at other times 6/7 isnt there at all really.

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This seems to be what is giving you the most problems

The antidote to that, I think, is making the commitment to yourself to work through the issue once you’re feeling good (or at least neutral) again. You are getting into a clear mental space to more clearly approach your problem and determine what is most sensible for you, and for everyone. So you’re definitely not ignoring it, and hopefully didn’t repress it while it was happening, as any repression only would have hidden the issue from sight.

Repression is sort of ‘pretending’ to feel good while the bad feeling is still going underneath

What you want is, to exit feeling bad, and sincerely be feeling good - fake feeling good won’t cut it. Different from repression. And it’s no avoidance, because of the above commitment. It’s really a deeper engagement with your problem!

–

A note: “working through” means, “finding out what is silly and sensible in the situation which initially triggered you”

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that you do nothing after 5? For example, no attempt to activate your attention, sensoriality, to prolong apperception…?

Maybe a brief description using Richard’s words of what I usually do in those cases -if number 3 does not work instantly- will help (except if I am overwhelmed, which is not the case in your description).

Just in case, I point out that apperception (“the mind’s perception of itself”) is related to pure perception:

“[…] that instant where one converges one’s eyes or ears or nose or tongue or skin on the thing. […] Pure perception takes place sensitively just before one starts feeling the percept –and thus thinking about it affectively– which takes place just before one’s feeling-fed mind says: ‘It’s a man’ or: ‘It’s a woman’”

and in apperceptiveness

“In that brief scintillating instant of bare awareness, that twinkling sensorium-moment of
consciousness being conscious of being consciousness […] One experiences a smoothly flowing moment of clear experiencing where one is interlocked with the rest of actuality, not separate from it”.

But

“In the process of ordinary perception, the apperceptiveness step is so fleeting as to be usually unobservable”

so

“it is the purpose of ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’ to accustom one to prolong that moment of apperceptiveness”.

So in 5 I apply HAIETMOBA. But I know that this question/silent attitude can fail its final purpose due to attention problems because

“To enable apperceptiveness to haply occur it is essential to allow a reflective attention – attentiveness – to one’s psychological and psychic world […]. Whatever feeling one may be having, a fascinated attention – attentiveness – freely divulges it… it is looking with discernibleness. […] A contemplative attention views all feelings as commensurate – nothing is suppressed and nothing is expressed – as attentiveness does not play favourites. […] Attentiveness gets not infatuated with the good feelings nor sidesteps the bad as attentiveness is a non-feeling awareness; a sensuous attention. […] Attentiveness is an aesthetic alertness that takes place with minimised reference to self. With attentiveness one sees the internal world with blameless references to concepts like ‘my’ or ‘mine’. Suppose there is a feeling of sadness. Ordinary consciousness would say, ‘I am sad’. Using attentiveness, one heedfully notices the feeling as a natural feeling – ‘There is human sadness’ – thus one does not tack on that possessive personal concept of ‘I’ or ‘me’ […] In attentiveness, there is an unbiased observing of the constant showing-up of the ‘reality’ within and is examining the feelings arising one after the other … and such attentiveness is the ending of its grip. Please note that last point: in attentiveness, there is an observance of the ‘reality’ within, and such attention is the end of its embrace … finish.”

The most common way I notice having arrived at this point is through sensuousness ("a word indicating a pre-emotional fidelity): the environment is then “affecting the senses aesthetically rather than sensually”, I notice that I am “readily affected by the senses” and “keenly responsive to the pleasures of sensation”.

Even without getting to move to apperception, do you try to get to this point after 5, taking advantage of the fact that you feel like in 6?

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You may find this recent post by @Kub933 useful:

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@henryyyyyyyyyy Sorry for the delayed response I’ve been thinking about this issue a bit and keep writing up a response but it keeps feeling like a work in progress. A few issues have yet to solidify and make sense. Eventually I want to write a more detailed account but for now I’d summarize that my current approach to that same situation is to basically be a bit more persistent with steps 1-5. The 6 and 7 seem to be more general doubts and resistances, I think including the word repression in my description was a bit of a red herring. Ultimately I find myself occasionally resisting getting to feeling good for a variety of reasons that generally seem to be just rationalizations. I do think that Kuba quote is relevant particularly about not moving psychically. I am wondering if I just need to persist a bit longer with steps 1-5… it certainly works that way sometimes to get past 6 and 7.

@Miguel I do go for some sensuousity at 5, that’s basically what step 5 was in my mind. Sometimes I don’t get “liftoff” though. I appreciate all those descriptions and recognize a lot from the times where I do get “liftoff”. I wonder if it’s just a matter of really focusing? I’ve tried that a few times lately. It actually does work occasionally. I think the type of effort is very subtle more like wiggling a key in a lock than opening a stuck jar lol.

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Reading 1-5 it seems to me there’s some trying to ‘get’ ‘me’ to feel good, and I’d suggest thinking of it more like, ‘allowing yourself to experience the purity that’s already there, happening’

I’ve benefitted from reading the simpleactualism.com description of PCE, for remembering the flavor. Also good are the descriptions of PCEs on the AFT and of course the gold standard, your own PCE memories

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@henryyyyyyyyyy I’m a big fan of that page… srinath’s writings are some of my favorite in terms of relatable ways of describing things.

April Report:

My experience was still ‘mixed’ as it was in March. Some good times some bad times. Not really sure if I made any long term progress, I think I unearthed a few obstacles though. I think the main obstacle has to do with trying to understand how I relate to people when I am happy and harmless.

I have been capable of getting to a state of feeling good when I’m on my own and have some time for the most part but it seems to sort of ‘paralyze’ me to try and stay that way with people. Or even when my mind starts to think about people and past or present situations. It seems like the second I walk into a room that has someone else in it I am instantly pulled towards feelings other than happy/harmlessness. I am not necessarily saying it is the vibe of the other person or their expectation of me, although it could be. Ultimately I am not sure what they are feeling but somehow my perception is that they are pressuring me to feel a certain way.

There are different versions of this with different people but the element that seems universal is a pressure to self-deprecate or express unhappiness in some way. The self-deprecation is an invitation for them to give approval and the expressing of unhappiness is an invitation for them to “be closer” to me. I want their approval and I am failing to really imagine interactions that don’t have that dynamic to some degree. When I really try to remain focused on feeling good I have found a lot of awkward silences coming up. Thinking and worrying about this issue even while alone meant plenty of bad-feeling periods this month.

Zooming out on the month and summing up… I basically let my foot off the gas. Various issues like what I described above were able to dominate my thoughts and feelings. It’s a complicated and unsolvable maze of subtle social dynamics… I think I should tend toward being more of a ‘bulldozer’ and keep my eyes on the prize this month.

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That’s some really interesting observations, I have had similar experiences of the various social dynamics that seek to fit me back into being normal, and the hallmark of being normal is to be miserable and malicious. So as intimidating as it might be to contemplate stepping out of this, it is a good riddance.

I have found that each time I look to step outside of a certain boundary that I have been operating within, there is initially that fear that something will go terribly wrong.
It’s usually after a while when things ‘level out’ I notice that actually the fuss was about nothing and that I am now better off.

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Hey @hunterad, just my two cents, but why not just become a guy that generally feels good? And why would that not be compatible with a good normal life?

I’d be careful to believe too strongly in your own characterisations of your life or your life “story”. That story is being informed by the way you feel generally at the moment. If you felt good a lot of things more often a lot of things might start to change - including your “real world outlook”.

Maybe you are putting the cart before the horse thinking too much about what it would take to give up a “less well formed self” etc. That way of thinking might actually be taking you more into darkness, intensity, self-criticism, cynicism etc. What would it look like if you went the other way? Becoming less serious, more-childlike, less heavy/burdened, more confident (as in the confidence which comes from feeling good), more happy.

Otherwise it seems you risk creating an incredibly intricate maze to navigate - and that maze is just a mental picture you have of your life. Whereas you could go the simple route of feeling good, which would clean up that whole picture.

I suppose the question is whether my experiences are enough to be sufficiently disenchanted with those real-world draws

Actualism is certainly not about becoming (even more) “disenchanted” right? In fact it’s the opposite! Please don’t think you need to enjoy life less in order to do actualism. It’s the opposite.

In which case the only problem you’d have to solve is learning how to get in the habit of that…

Just my quick take. Cheers

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@Felix This is a good reminder and I am not just tossing it away. But it is also not a revelation to me, more of a perspective I am well aware of but unable to stick to. I do definitely take your points about getting wrapped up in a story about myself. Especially how it’s very influenced by current feelings. The simpler way of being you are describing is effortless sometimes and other times seems inaccessible though, so I was trying to enter the maze a bit and see what turns up.

This is how i was thinking at the beginning of this month, from my journal here:

Zooming out on the month and summing up… I basically let my foot off the gas. Various issues like what I described above were able to dominate my thoughts and feelings. It’s a complicated and unsolvable maze of subtle social dynamics… I think I should tend toward being more of a ‘bulldozer’ and keep my eyes on the prize this month.

I was pretty much thinking right in line with what you’re describing here. I couldn’t manage to stay focused on it though.

Let me get into the details of what has been happening when I try to keep that mindset in place but fail to. The most recent example was I got blamed for something unfairly at work. I recognized in the morning before work that I was getting mad thinking about it. I made a strong effort to stop fueling the feeling. I contemplated how much better my day would be if I could go in feeling carefree and just ‘vibing’ as they say… doing what I need to do and not worrying about my reputation. I made some little movements that way but I could sense that there wasn’t a deep feeling change happening. So I went more non-verbal and just tried to remain entirely ‘still’ on an emotional level, to allow the feeling to sort of just burn out.

It was just like as soon as my attention slipped I was right back into justifying why my anger was valid. I noted to myself that I didn’t want to let him get away with it. Throughout the day at work I was basically in a state of stony silence trying not to let the anger out. I kept my hands in my pockets but my vibes were definitely just bad. So ultimately it felt like a simple battle of wills between two motivations within myself. They apparently conflicted. That’s why I was trying to dig into my motivations a bit with my previous post and why I am interested in ‘disenchantment’. Not a disenchantment with life but a disenchantment with the things that seem to conflict with my desire to be happy and harmless.

As soon as I put all this into words I feel a bit ridiculous but hopefully if you @Felix or anyone is interested into pursuing more I might be able to get a better picture of where I’m off track.

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I don’t find it ridiculous at all. I find it pretty relatable actually. I know what it’s like to flagellate oneself for not being able to do the method, not being able to feel good etc (especially when you’re trying your hardest).

To me this just means you haven’t figured out what it means to shift into feeling good yet. So rather than see it as a big deal, with all these implications, maybe just see it as something you haven’t quite learnt yet. Why not give yourself some time, take the pressure off yourself about it, and experiment a bit with what might work to be in a good mood more often.

The example you give about getting blamed unfairly at work - I wouldn’t take a trigger situation like that as a starting point for working out how to feel good. When you’ve been triggered, it’s pretty hard to find one’s way out of that, especially if feeling good isn’t a habit yet.

What would be easier is getting into a good mood in the first place, so that when a trigger does come along, you won’t be as likely to get hit so hard by it. It’s much easier to recover from getting knocked from feeling good into feeling neutral, rather than already being neutral at most and then getting triggered deeper into feeling bad. Even Richard, who was surely the most adept at this method as a feeling being, has talked about the fact that’s it’s way easier to keep an existing good mood than it is to get out of being triggered. The latter is difficult.

For me for example, I find it really helps to set an intention to feel good before I start my day. I wake up and I become aware of my feelings and then gradually move towards enjoying. I keep this intention all day no matter what. That way, when triggers do come along, there isn’t such a massive deviation.

The method isn’t just about avoiding being triggered because that would just keep you in neutral. You have to to find a way to do the felicity part. And yeah the facility part is the part which the identity within just does not want to do! That’s not unique to you at all, that’s me too and everyone. You are treating this like it’s special to you and not universal human nature. This method isn’t necessarily easy - though this forum might create an image that everyone is succeeding and you aren’t.

The question is will you let feeling bad be the status quo though? Feeling good would solve everything wouldn’t it? Not just for you but for every man, woman and child….So surely it’s worth taking the time and effort to figure out to how to allow yourself to feel good (no matter how difficult or impossible that might seem).

I started this with a really bad chronic stress condition - I was mentally/physically fucked - so I can relate to thinking “this would be so much easier if my starting point was different “ and basically wanting to give up. Think of how good it would be to start feeling even a bit better though. The sooner you start the more possible it will become.

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Some thoughts here …

I wonder if actualism has a ‘zero sum’ problem. So either the actualist or the method is to blame. Seems to be harder to find a middle path e.g. actualism method being modified for a practitioner or assisting the practitioner to more effectively use the method keeping in mind his/her individual strengths and weaknesses.

Probably ‘well formed self’ is a confusing term. I guess I meant that it’s probably easier to practice actualism consistently when one is somewhat emotionally stable and has a degree of balance in their lives. What that means for each individual will be very different and is open to interpretation.

I think people have vastly different upbringings, personalities, sensitivities and life circumstances. I can imagine that what might be easy for one person can be difficult for another. Feeling good can be hard for some people.

I do wonder about those actualists with trauma, significant emotional difficulties, who are young and who have yet to find their footing in life, because they can often end up suppressing their emotions in their efforts to feel good or beat themselves up for failing at the method - especially if actualism is mostly all they have going in their lives.

There are those who should probably put more energy into getting real life experience, relationships, education, hobbies and work. Therapy should not be discounted - especially depth psychology approach. It can be easy to see Actualism as a replacement for all these things.

Actualism can be taken up ascetically or puritanically - especially for those with a Buddhist background. One might then feel guilty for pursuing one’s desires as an actualist, rather than seeing how both could co-exist side by side,

@hunterad I think you and Adam are doing a good job showcasing the difficulties with actualism in the real world, especially when one is young and less sure of oneself - these are pretty common and nearly universal. We probably shy away from this sort of stuff on this forum historically. Maybe it’s inevitable when the method is about enjoying - “It’s about ‘feeling good’ so don’t talk about feeling bad!!” We could create more space for these sorts of discussions, rather than just telling people that their views about their experience is wrong. Maybe you have some thoughts about a way forward?

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I totally agree with not replacing stuff which is good for people with “hardcore actualism”. For my recovery it was imperative that I did the real world stuff that makes you feel good: from exercise to romantic/sexual connection to rest to friendship and family contact etc. My symptoms at that time were so extreme and physiological at the start that feeling good was the most impossible challenge - and I don’t credit my application of the actualism method with getting me out of it initially.

I also agree that actualism is best if people are well-adjusted already. Though that’s not really age dependent necessarily, as much as situational and personality related (though I get those factors can correlate to age).

For example, I have a brother who has a pretty happy life, has two kids, a wife, a good job, travels etc. He is caring and has an even temperament. I would tell him about actualism for sure. My Dad on the other hand is older, remarried, very successful at work but overworks like crazy, struggles a lot mentally, has unresolved childhood trauma. Not in a million years would I introduce him to actualism. It would do him harm if anything, I think.

As you say, it would be awesome if this forum was a place where people were free to be where they are at, unapologetically, without having to feel bad or guilty about that. So much of this process is about trying and failing, over and over.

At the same time; there is probably some risk in only being empathetic (for want of a better word), to the point that people only indulge (for want of a better word) identity further without trying enough to get over the considerable hump required to make regular feeling good possible. Otherwise people will just decide it’s too hard and latch on to the option to not really try hard at all.

Perhaps there is indeed a way to encourage an integrated approach. In my opinion, feeling good is not at all incompatible with living a normal life, full of all the normal real world stuff. I guess the main problem, as you allude to, is when people go in the wrong direction with the method (ie being extreme or dark with it, making oneself feel worse not better, dissociating/repressing or being stuck with existing mental issues/trauma etc). The best thing probably in general is for people to feel they can write in this forum and get support, like with this particular thread.

How do you reckon that can be improved @Srinath? Do you think people who have been here longer are too gun-ho in giving advice about actualism? It is pretty easy to get caught up in “helper” mode. I think it would be ideal if only actually free people gave advice - though resources of are somewhat limited at the moment :smiley:.

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This is cool, pretty much the same timeline as me. I was into Spirituality until around 18 and then I found Actualism, (I’m also 28 now :smiley:) tried it for a year or so unsuccessfully and then had like a 6 year or so break away from it to pursue the real world then came back 2 years ago.

Honestly reading yours, Adam’s and Srinath’s posts you might as well be taking about me because I went through all of those stages. I remember pondering these things when I first got into Actualism at around 18, that Peter and Vineeto were already older when they found it, they had all the life experience to show them why the tried and true is the tried and failed, they were also well-adjusted and able to live a normal life, so Actualism wasn’t some path of escape and avoidance for them.

I was at the other end of the spectrum :sweat_smile:. When I first came to the UK at around 12 years old I did not integrate into society, I had no friends at all, no social skills, riddled with anxiety, I wasn’t able to even face going to school, university or work. I never had any girlfriends or intimate relationships until about 18.

Basically by the time I found Actualism at 18, I was deeply dysfunctional and had no experience of what it is like to have a ‘normal life’, which includes being able to socialise, go to work, have relationships etc. This was also made worse by the fact that I had spent about 2 years pursuing Vipassana, and many years prior getting lost in various self help style spirituality.

Also at the time Actualism was not understood as well by most people interested so the conditions were ripe for me to turn it into something that was epitomised by avoidance and escapism.

Because I had no experience of why the real world solutions fail I always found myself pulling in two different directions. On one hand I had this fantasy of Actual freedom and on the other hand I had all these desires of being a ‘someone’ and experiencing all the best things that ‘being normal’ has to offer.

In the end I abandoned Actualism and set myself on a path of succeeding in all the things that ‘normal’ people do, getting a girlfriend, learning how to socialise, having a friendship group, becoming successful at a career etc.

When I came back to it 2 years ago I was more of a ‘well adjusted individual’. I was able to work full time, had a great friendship group, had a girlfriend, was able to function in society etc. So I guess those years were not for nothing. The thing I noticed though is that even though I was doing all the ‘right’ things, I was still deeply unhappy.

Seeing that the real world ultimately had nothing to offer me, that even after years of succeeding at being normal I was still not happy was what I needed to be able to commit to Actualism properly this time.

Looking back though I think part of the reason I went on this big detour was because of a lack of understanding of what the method is all about. As the other guys mentioned, I could have done all of those things I did whilst simply focusing on feeling good. I could have explored all these desires and pursuits whilst feeling good. I think the simplicity of it all is something that still hasn’t fully clicked for me, I still find myself trying to ‘act like an actualist’ whatever that means :joy:

What was useful for me yesterday was re-reading the questions to Richard and Vineeto page that Dona and Alan made. In that correspondence the thing that is repeated over and over numerous times is making a commitment to feeling good each moment again for the rest of ones life. If I was to simplify my goal as an Actualist to this one simple commitment and then trim the rest, then things get alot more straightforward. Want to go ahead and become famous and rich? Sure, go for it, just feel good whilst you go about it. Want to go out and party every weekend, sure go ahead, just feel good whilst going about it etc etc.

The only thing I am ‘giving up’ is feeling bad! Then in terms of the ins and outs of what I do with my life it is up to my own assessment of what is silly and what is sensible for me to do (as long as this silly/sensible is not turned into some actualist morality as I think there can be a danger there).

I’m super intrigued by all this so I am happy to continue this discussion with anyone interested :smiley:

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Nice one @Kub933

I agree with that @Felix

I think conversations like in this thread are amazing and helpful i.e. one’s where people share their difficulties and how they overcame them. Makes this place less of an ‘error free zone’. And most of it has come from non-AF people. I think generally the advice on this forum is of a high standard, sensitive and good. People do give up a lot of time to word posts that might be helpful to others. But meeting people where they are sometimes and showing them some understanding, rather than seeing things in a more technical ‘misapplication of method’ way. Creating a culture where people feel comfortable expressing their difficulties will be nice.

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Similar progression for me lol:

Age 21 - 23/24: failing at life , succeeding with western Buddhism
Age 23/24 - 28: Failing at life, failing at actualism
Age 28 - 33: life improving, staring to succeed with actualism !

Life-wise I still never had a “job-job” … but more of a partner in a company type situation. So it’s not a typical situation. But working out well!

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I definitely have figured out what it means to shift into feeling good. The purpose of me coming on here and talking about these things is to work through those moments where I am not able to do it.

Who said I am just starting out working out how to feel good? I don’t see where I’ve given that impression. The example I gave is just a really clear moment where I wasn’t able to get myself to feel good.

My experience right now is that I can get to feeling good pretty frequently. But there are some situations that are consistently throwing me off.

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I am not really sure, but I definitely see the problem you are describing. Maybe this forum is exactly as it has to be because there’s nothing that anyone else can really do to guide someone through the specific details of exactly what they are dealing with. The advice that happens tends to be a constant reiteration of the basics… that seems unideal but that’s just what actualism is. It’s a very simple method. And it requires a sincerity that no one else can hold you accountable for but yourself.

As has been noted plenty of times only you can know all of your individual little thoughts/feelings. In your experience did these types of discussions get you anywhere?

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