Hunterad's journal

Journals
21

That’s some really interesting observations, I have had similar experiences of the various social dynamics that seek to fit me back into being normal, and the hallmark of being normal is to be miserable and malicious. So as intimidating as it might be to contemplate stepping out of this, it is a good riddance.

I have found that each time I look to step outside of a certain boundary that I have been operating within, there is initially that fear that something will go terribly wrong.
It’s usually after a while when things ‘level out’ I notice that actually the fuss was about nothing and that I am now better off.

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Hey @hunterad, just my two cents, but why not just become a guy that generally feels good? And why would that not be compatible with a good normal life?

I’d be careful to believe too strongly in your own characterisations of your life or your life “story”. That story is being informed by the way you feel generally at the moment. If you felt good a lot of things more often a lot of things might start to change - including your “real world outlook”.

Maybe you are putting the cart before the horse thinking too much about what it would take to give up a “less well formed self” etc. That way of thinking might actually be taking you more into darkness, intensity, self-criticism, cynicism etc. What would it look like if you went the other way? Becoming less serious, more-childlike, less heavy/burdened, more confident (as in the confidence which comes from feeling good), more happy.

Otherwise it seems you risk creating an incredibly intricate maze to navigate - and that maze is just a mental picture you have of your life. Whereas you could go the simple route of feeling good, which would clean up that whole picture.

I suppose the question is whether my experiences are enough to be sufficiently disenchanted with those real-world draws

Actualism is certainly not about becoming (even more) “disenchanted” right? In fact it’s the opposite! Please don’t think you need to enjoy life less in order to do actualism. It’s the opposite.

In which case the only problem you’d have to solve is learning how to get in the habit of that…

Just my quick take. Cheers

23

@Felix This is a good reminder and I am not just tossing it away. But it is also not a revelation to me, more of a perspective I am well aware of but unable to stick to. I do definitely take your points about getting wrapped up in a story about myself. Especially how it’s very influenced by current feelings. The simpler way of being you are describing is effortless sometimes and other times seems inaccessible though, so I was trying to enter the maze a bit and see what turns up.

This is how i was thinking at the beginning of this month, from my journal here:

Zooming out on the month and summing up… I basically let my foot off the gas. Various issues like what I described above were able to dominate my thoughts and feelings. It’s a complicated and unsolvable maze of subtle social dynamics… I think I should tend toward being more of a ‘bulldozer’ and keep my eyes on the prize this month.

I was pretty much thinking right in line with what you’re describing here. I couldn’t manage to stay focused on it though.

Let me get into the details of what has been happening when I try to keep that mindset in place but fail to. The most recent example was I got blamed for something unfairly at work. I recognized in the morning before work that I was getting mad thinking about it. I made a strong effort to stop fueling the feeling. I contemplated how much better my day would be if I could go in feeling carefree and just ‘vibing’ as they say… doing what I need to do and not worrying about my reputation. I made some little movements that way but I could sense that there wasn’t a deep feeling change happening. So I went more non-verbal and just tried to remain entirely ‘still’ on an emotional level, to allow the feeling to sort of just burn out.

It was just like as soon as my attention slipped I was right back into justifying why my anger was valid. I noted to myself that I didn’t want to let him get away with it. Throughout the day at work I was basically in a state of stony silence trying not to let the anger out. I kept my hands in my pockets but my vibes were definitely just bad. So ultimately it felt like a simple battle of wills between two motivations within myself. They apparently conflicted. That’s why I was trying to dig into my motivations a bit with my previous post and why I am interested in ‘disenchantment’. Not a disenchantment with life but a disenchantment with the things that seem to conflict with my desire to be happy and harmless.

As soon as I put all this into words I feel a bit ridiculous but hopefully if you @Felix or anyone is interested into pursuing more I might be able to get a better picture of where I’m off track.

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24

I don’t find it ridiculous at all. I find it pretty relatable actually. I know what it’s like to flagellate oneself for not being able to do the method, not being able to feel good etc (especially when you’re trying your hardest).

To me this just means you haven’t figured out what it means to shift into feeling good yet. So rather than see it as a big deal, with all these implications, maybe just see it as something you haven’t quite learnt yet. Why not give yourself some time, take the pressure off yourself about it, and experiment a bit with what might work to be in a good mood more often.

The example you give about getting blamed unfairly at work - I wouldn’t take a trigger situation like that as a starting point for working out how to feel good. When you’ve been triggered, it’s pretty hard to find one’s way out of that, especially if feeling good isn’t a habit yet.

What would be easier is getting into a good mood in the first place, so that when a trigger does come along, you won’t be as likely to get hit so hard by it. It’s much easier to recover from getting knocked from feeling good into feeling neutral, rather than already being neutral at most and then getting triggered deeper into feeling bad. Even Richard, who was surely the most adept at this method as a feeling being, has talked about the fact that’s it’s way easier to keep an existing good mood than it is to get out of being triggered. The latter is difficult.

For me for example, I find it really helps to set an intention to feel good before I start my day. I wake up and I become aware of my feelings and then gradually move towards enjoying. I keep this intention all day no matter what. That way, when triggers do come along, there isn’t such a massive deviation.

The method isn’t just about avoiding being triggered because that would just keep you in neutral. You have to to find a way to do the felicity part. And yeah the facility part is the part which the identity within just does not want to do! That’s not unique to you at all, that’s me too and everyone. You are treating this like it’s special to you and not universal human nature. This method isn’t necessarily easy - though this forum might create an image that everyone is succeeding and you aren’t.

The question is will you let feeling bad be the status quo though? Feeling good would solve everything wouldn’t it? Not just for you but for every man, woman and child….So surely it’s worth taking the time and effort to figure out to how to allow yourself to feel good (no matter how difficult or impossible that might seem).

I started this with a really bad chronic stress condition - I was mentally/physically fucked - so I can relate to thinking “this would be so much easier if my starting point was different “ and basically wanting to give up. Think of how good it would be to start feeling even a bit better though. The sooner you start the more possible it will become.

25

Some thoughts here …

I wonder if actualism has a ‘zero sum’ problem. So either the actualist or the method is to blame. Seems to be harder to find a middle path e.g. actualism method being modified for a practitioner or assisting the practitioner to more effectively use the method keeping in mind his/her individual strengths and weaknesses.

Probably ‘well formed self’ is a confusing term. I guess I meant that it’s probably easier to practice actualism consistently when one is somewhat emotionally stable and has a degree of balance in their lives. What that means for each individual will be very different and is open to interpretation.

I think people have vastly different upbringings, personalities, sensitivities and life circumstances. I can imagine that what might be easy for one person can be difficult for another. Feeling good can be hard for some people.

I do wonder about those actualists with trauma, significant emotional difficulties, who are young and who have yet to find their footing in life, because they can often end up suppressing their emotions in their efforts to feel good or beat themselves up for failing at the method - especially if actualism is mostly all they have going in their lives.

There are those who should probably put more energy into getting real life experience, relationships, education, hobbies and work. Therapy should not be discounted - especially depth psychology approach. It can be easy to see Actualism as a replacement for all these things.

Actualism can be taken up ascetically or puritanically - especially for those with a Buddhist background. One might then feel guilty for pursuing one’s desires as an actualist, rather than seeing how both could co-exist side by side,

@hunterad I think you and Adam are doing a good job showcasing the difficulties with actualism in the real world, especially when one is young and less sure of oneself - these are pretty common and nearly universal. We probably shy away from this sort of stuff on this forum historically. Maybe it’s inevitable when the method is about enjoying - “It’s about ‘feeling good’ so don’t talk about feeling bad!!” We could create more space for these sorts of discussions, rather than just telling people that their views about their experience is wrong. Maybe you have some thoughts about a way forward?

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26

I totally agree with not replacing stuff which is good for people with “hardcore actualism”. For my recovery it was imperative that I did the real world stuff that makes you feel good: from exercise to romantic/sexual connection to rest to friendship and family contact etc. My symptoms at that time were so extreme and physiological at the start that feeling good was the most impossible challenge - and I don’t credit my application of the actualism method with getting me out of it initially.

I also agree that actualism is best if people are well-adjusted already. Though that’s not really age dependent necessarily, as much as situational and personality related (though I get those factors can correlate to age).

For example, I have a brother who has a pretty happy life, has two kids, a wife, a good job, travels etc. He is caring and has an even temperament. I would tell him about actualism for sure. My Dad on the other hand is older, remarried, very successful at work but overworks like crazy, struggles a lot mentally, has unresolved childhood trauma. Not in a million years would I introduce him to actualism. It would do him harm if anything, I think.

As you say, it would be awesome if this forum was a place where people were free to be where they are at, unapologetically, without having to feel bad or guilty about that. So much of this process is about trying and failing, over and over.

At the same time; there is probably some risk in only being empathetic (for want of a better word), to the point that people only indulge (for want of a better word) identity further without trying enough to get over the considerable hump required to make regular feeling good possible. Otherwise people will just decide it’s too hard and latch on to the option to not really try hard at all.

Perhaps there is indeed a way to encourage an integrated approach. In my opinion, feeling good is not at all incompatible with living a normal life, full of all the normal real world stuff. I guess the main problem, as you allude to, is when people go in the wrong direction with the method (ie being extreme or dark with it, making oneself feel worse not better, dissociating/repressing or being stuck with existing mental issues/trauma etc). The best thing probably in general is for people to feel they can write in this forum and get support, like with this particular thread.

How do you reckon that can be improved @Srinath? Do you think people who have been here longer are too gun-ho in giving advice about actualism? It is pretty easy to get caught up in “helper” mode. I think it would be ideal if only actually free people gave advice - though resources of are somewhat limited at the moment :smiley:.

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27

This is cool, pretty much the same timeline as me. I was into Spirituality until around 18 and then I found Actualism, (I’m also 28 now :smiley:) tried it for a year or so unsuccessfully and then had like a 6 year or so break away from it to pursue the real world then came back 2 years ago.

Honestly reading yours, Adam’s and Srinath’s posts you might as well be taking about me because I went through all of those stages. I remember pondering these things when I first got into Actualism at around 18, that Peter and Vineeto were already older when they found it, they had all the life experience to show them why the tried and true is the tried and failed, they were also well-adjusted and able to live a normal life, so Actualism wasn’t some path of escape and avoidance for them.

I was at the other end of the spectrum :sweat_smile:. When I first came to the UK at around 12 years old I did not integrate into society, I had no friends at all, no social skills, riddled with anxiety, I wasn’t able to even face going to school, university or work. I never had any girlfriends or intimate relationships until about 18.

Basically by the time I found Actualism at 18, I was deeply dysfunctional and had no experience of what it is like to have a ‘normal life’, which includes being able to socialise, go to work, have relationships etc. This was also made worse by the fact that I had spent about 2 years pursuing Vipassana, and many years prior getting lost in various self help style spirituality.

Also at the time Actualism was not understood as well by most people interested so the conditions were ripe for me to turn it into something that was epitomised by avoidance and escapism.

Because I had no experience of why the real world solutions fail I always found myself pulling in two different directions. On one hand I had this fantasy of Actual freedom and on the other hand I had all these desires of being a ‘someone’ and experiencing all the best things that ‘being normal’ has to offer.

In the end I abandoned Actualism and set myself on a path of succeeding in all the things that ‘normal’ people do, getting a girlfriend, learning how to socialise, having a friendship group, becoming successful at a career etc.

When I came back to it 2 years ago I was more of a ‘well adjusted individual’. I was able to work full time, had a great friendship group, had a girlfriend, was able to function in society etc. So I guess those years were not for nothing. The thing I noticed though is that even though I was doing all the ‘right’ things, I was still deeply unhappy.

Seeing that the real world ultimately had nothing to offer me, that even after years of succeeding at being normal I was still not happy was what I needed to be able to commit to Actualism properly this time.

Looking back though I think part of the reason I went on this big detour was because of a lack of understanding of what the method is all about. As the other guys mentioned, I could have done all of those things I did whilst simply focusing on feeling good. I could have explored all these desires and pursuits whilst feeling good. I think the simplicity of it all is something that still hasn’t fully clicked for me, I still find myself trying to ‘act like an actualist’ whatever that means :joy:

What was useful for me yesterday was re-reading the questions to Richard and Vineeto page that Dona and Alan made. In that correspondence the thing that is repeated over and over numerous times is making a commitment to feeling good each moment again for the rest of ones life. If I was to simplify my goal as an Actualist to this one simple commitment and then trim the rest, then things get alot more straightforward. Want to go ahead and become famous and rich? Sure, go for it, just feel good whilst you go about it. Want to go out and party every weekend, sure go ahead, just feel good whilst going about it etc etc.

The only thing I am ‘giving up’ is feeling bad! Then in terms of the ins and outs of what I do with my life it is up to my own assessment of what is silly and what is sensible for me to do (as long as this silly/sensible is not turned into some actualist morality as I think there can be a danger there).

I’m super intrigued by all this so I am happy to continue this discussion with anyone interested :smiley:

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28

Nice one @Kub933

I agree with that @Felix

I think conversations like in this thread are amazing and helpful i.e. one’s where people share their difficulties and how they overcame them. Makes this place less of an ‘error free zone’. And most of it has come from non-AF people. I think generally the advice on this forum is of a high standard, sensitive and good. People do give up a lot of time to word posts that might be helpful to others. But meeting people where they are sometimes and showing them some understanding, rather than seeing things in a more technical ‘misapplication of method’ way. Creating a culture where people feel comfortable expressing their difficulties will be nice.

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29

Similar progression for me lol:

Age 21 - 23/24: failing at life , succeeding with western Buddhism
Age 23/24 - 28: Failing at life, failing at actualism
Age 28 - 33: life improving, staring to succeed with actualism !

Life-wise I still never had a “job-job” … but more of a partner in a company type situation. So it’s not a typical situation. But working out well!

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30

I definitely have figured out what it means to shift into feeling good. The purpose of me coming on here and talking about these things is to work through those moments where I am not able to do it.

Who said I am just starting out working out how to feel good? I don’t see where I’ve given that impression. The example I gave is just a really clear moment where I wasn’t able to get myself to feel good.

My experience right now is that I can get to feeling good pretty frequently. But there are some situations that are consistently throwing me off.

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31

I am not really sure, but I definitely see the problem you are describing. Maybe this forum is exactly as it has to be because there’s nothing that anyone else can really do to guide someone through the specific details of exactly what they are dealing with. The advice that happens tends to be a constant reiteration of the basics… that seems unideal but that’s just what actualism is. It’s a very simple method. And it requires a sincerity that no one else can hold you accountable for but yourself.

As has been noted plenty of times only you can know all of your individual little thoughts/feelings. In your experience did these types of discussions get you anywhere?

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32

I also don’t really know how to discuss specifics or details in a way other than I do. I like to gather all the facts , all the tiny details of conversation , to demonstrate the point. Some people react negatively to it - as evidenced by Richard’s correspondences too, as I noticed he takes this approach (or I learned it from watching him do it lol). It’s really effective at providing an irrefutable point - but that can lead to emotional backlash even when no offense is intended.

So the only alternative is to avoid the topic or not engage… which may be better in some cases. But then there is not an opportunity for the other to see the point. Also I think for some or many people this type of detail-delving just isn’t interesting or helpful, probably a different communication medium would work better. It may be the limits (although also the benefits) of text. One can be very precise but it also gets crazily lengthy easily. It’s great reading though if one is in the mood lol.

Maybe it’s just the nature of the conversations too. If someone is missing something, and the first or second attempts to point it out work, then all is smooth and great. If they don’t it means there’s a deeper issue, and to dive further in is to likely encounter defense mechanisms - do it at your peril lol. So it’s then just a decision whether to go further or not.

About talking about feeling bad , similar things apply … If someone is feeling bad, it means they aren’t seeing something or are just overwhelmed or need advice. The only advice that can be given is for them to do something other than what they have been. And then it’s natural to get defensive… but that is the only advice that can be helpful.

And generally of course as social creatures we tend to not wanna discuss when we’re feeling bad, so those naturally happen less.

But as it’s just part of the human condition, I agree it’d be good to have an environment where people can and do share in that way and it’s beneficial for everyone.

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33

Something that’s occurring to me is that the feeling bad way of thinking and the feeling good way of thinking are in very different realms. Often when I’m feeling good I’m like “why would I ever feel bad” and often when I’m feeling bad it’s like, “how could I feel good with this situation?”… so if that disconnect exists within myself it shouldn’t surprise me that it exists when I’m trying to explain the situation to someone else. That’s probably why often when I read someone else’s direct advice to me it’s like “they didn’t understand what I’m experiencing when they wrote this”.

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34

I think everyone’s investigation is their own and everyone’s reality is their own.

We all have a slightly different combination of hangups & skeletons in the closet, which we each have to figure out for ourselves, in whatever way. We’re doing ourselves a disservice when we don’t investigate this or that that we’re interested in just because it’s not ‘actualist enough.’ Everything that exists can be investigated, and all the dreams and realities of humanity can be investigated too. The conclusions that are come to, and the life that is lived, are the business of the individual.

For me, I had a curiosity about psychedelics and had to investigate that for awhile. More recently I’ve spent a lot of time & energy investigating romantic involvement.

Where it maybe becomes interesting is in the advice that’s given & how it’s received, @hunterad refers to this in his post as well.

It can be hard to determine sometimes what the best advice to give someone is at different times, often it’s a bit like throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. And the other side of that is that even if someone gives us the perfect advice sometimes we can’t understand it, or don’t want to. There’s not any way to ensure someone will hear something or benefit from something. That goes for actualism, as well.

If all these claims of actual freedom are accurate, then all the investigations will ultimately lead back there. That takes care of itself.

But there isn’t any preventing this or that identity from denying something. That’s the normal condition.

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35

I definitely have figured out what it means to shift into feeling good. The purpose of me coming on here and talking about these things is to work through those moments where I am not able to do it.

Who said I am just starting out working out how to feel good? I don’t see where I’ve given that impression. The example I gave is just a really clear moment where I wasn’t able to get myself to feel good.

My experience right now is that I can get to feeling good pretty frequently. But there are some situations that are consistently throwing me off.

Hey @hunterad , I certainly wasn’t trying to assume anything about your situation or make any kind of judgement/criticism. Inevitably, contributing here in response to what others have written requires me to put myself in their shoes, which does involve me imagining, to a degree, what situation they are in -
from what they say. You had tagged me asking for input essentially - apologies that I didn’t understand you wanted it to relate to specific difficulty points. Glad the other guys could help :slight_smile:

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36

I can definitely relate to this, when feeling good, excellent or when in a PCE its all so obvious, like why would I ever want to be any other way, it makes no sense! And then some feeling pattern descends and all of a sudden it seems as if all the words on Actualism just don’t click, they make sense intellectually and maybe from memory, but they don’t seem to get me over to ‘there’.

What I have been noticing lately is that this is a good time to sincerely investigate where the discord lies. Because clearly there are these 2 parts of me, 1 knows intellectually/from memory that feeling good is the way to go and yet this other part is completely hung up on not having it any other way.

I think in these scenarios it is counter-productive to try to get that sorrowfull and malicious ‘me’ to change by force or by pretence. For me it seems during those times I need to look at that entire emotional structure which is behind the discord, this has to be sincere though, not expecting an answer right away but rather mapping the emotional landscape as I think Srinath has put it. There has to be patience and curiosity with this investigation as opposed to 1 part of me lecturing another part on how they are meant to be.

I have been in exactly that kind of discord the past few days so this is all from my personal experience of trying to suss it out. I’d be interested to hear more about how this is progressing for you. Ultimately all the explorations and discoveries are done unilaterally but the sharing and sussing things out together aspect can be really beneficial too.

@hunterad Let me know what you think and if there is any bits that I did not understand correctly.

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37

Felix, feel free to comment on anything I write, it’s not that I only want advice relating to specific things. I guess I was looking at it as a discussion, trying to work through what I’ve been dealing with while getting input from others. The input I got from you was good advice but it was written assuming that I was ‘just starting out feeling good’ and it seemed worthwhile to correct that. I think it would have been a mistake to only express gratitude for the advice given if it’s based on a factual misunderstanding.

That said I still appreciate the spirit and message of the advice you gave. I look at it as a continuing discussion that I want to have.

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38

Yea I have this experience for sure

I agree, though sometimes I feel like I’m going in circles… basically it seems I have already figured out where the discord is and yet it persists. I think what is happening is that I am allowing ‘dirt’ to creep into my intent to feel good. I think what has to happen is that the impure intent has to become the object of focus rather than the original bad feeling. That’s the approach i’ve been taking.

It has to get to the point where my intent is only to feel good without any sort of expectations about what that will look like or how people will respond to it. That’s my best guess at the moment. Is that relatable to you?

Yea happy to suss it out together! thanks for your response.

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Are you able to give some examples of what the dirt is? I am assuming it’s various social identity motivations? For example for me I notice there is a investment into the good feelings of being powerful which relate to my identity as a martial arts coach/athlete.

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I guess that would be the goal but in the meantime it seems the “what that will look like or how people will respond to it” is the place to look. Is that the ‘dirt’ that is spoiling feeling good?