Well, let’s not turn this into an actual argument. Or let’s agree to the purest exchange of ideas possible.
In that light, your post comes off as unresearched and highly influenced by the propaganda that American policy has anything at all to do with spreading democracy.
Iraq was an oil grab. That, and a way to spend a massive amount of tax dollars on weapons, to funnel it into Northop et al. Over a million dead.
It’s reasonably obvious that weath and power are intertwined. The average American is like the average Russian, or Australian, or Swede, or German… etc. Normal concerns, normal expectations.
I liken it to looking at a glass of water. It’s clear & colourless, but get enough of it into one place, and it’s blue!
Humanity is like this. Individuals are rarely monsters. By nations are pure psychopaths. Collectively, the results of nations actions are atrocious.
Which post? In the latest, I remarked how dumb the neo-cons were. Perhaps, because, I mentioned democracy you thought I was giving those neo-cons more credit than they deserved. I see now I shouldn’t have said democracy. In fact, you’re right. Me even using that term does suggest a significant downloading of propaganda. A more accurate term would be: Corporate oligarchy with an established means for the peaceful transition of power
Ha! The transcript was right there. Golden. I didn’t catch it. I looked at how long it was and saw it was an hour and like nope i’m out. But i can read it in a fraction of the time. So good. i am interested.
It’s all a very powerful exercise in looking out into the world with the “lens” of our own loyalty, fears, national identity, and ultimately personal identity.
To otherwise bring something other than my opinion, i really enjoyed reading Freud’s “Civilisation and it’s Discontents” years ago.
To sum it up all large groups need to have an external enemy. It’s what they can redirect the individuals discontent towards. Or as Richard would call it “disfranchisement”.
As long as it’s something other than this society at fault, then it will survive.
Yea. You’re totally right. If want to take a step back then we can all agree it’s total nonsense. And wax poetic about it. A very worthy conversation to be had, imo. But if you interject some things which are like “hmm what” then it becomes a more specific conversation and now we’re talking about facts specific to this war. For example, you just pointed out how I may be propagandized. I had used the word democracy when that really wasn’t the right word. Obviously I used it, as I think you were pointing out, because I have become too familiar with the mainstream propaganda here (which I redundantly point out is corporate propaganda)
Ah, I see where the confusion was. Sorry. No, I was talking about the follow-up afterwards. You can chose to soar with words but back then, it seemed like a tone deaf escalation
And I realize we both sound like shills, so sorry about that. I’ll back off.
I shouldn’t sound like a shill. Other than the mis-used word I just used with Andrew, what else sounds like propaganda? The dead giveaway with you was Kamala. Here in the states, only the far right interjects her name into any conversation. She’s a political hack who became the running mate of another political hack. She has no relevance other than superficial.
Yes, i only have a superficial impression of rhe US leadership over the last presidency. Unlike Trump, whom we all had Srid linking daily info about, and the world being very upset about, including me, these two are perplexing in their obvious lack of charisma or skill.
Almost like someone is mocking the world that these two are in “charge” of the worlds most powerful nation.
Trump was at least believable in that authority. There is something far more unnerving about this pair.
I am reminded of Annie Lennox lyrics ; “sometimes the greatest coward can hurt the most ferociously”.
In both the Russian and US cases, i find it hard to believe that anyone would follow through with the order to launch nukes. There is such a disconnect between what the average citizens want the leaders.
I don’t see any of the modern super powers with citizenship united behind their leadership in the current drama.
I doubt i am totally right about anything, but it’s all very interesting and a wake up call.
I had been totally disinterested in any of the build up to the invasion, just having my drama and whatnot, then BAM, we have Putin putting his Nukes on a higher alert level.
My loyalty “instinct” wants to believe someone knows what is going on, and i default to putin.
It’s pure hope really. A certain narrative that emotionally makes sense, which filters out other possibilities.
It could turn out to be as Freud believed, an evolution in society towards greater cooperation.
That all of this could indeed change more than just a few national boundaries.
One wonders if Russia & China got on board with the US - that the dictatorships all become American styled Republics- what then?
Who will the arms dealers sell to? Who will they bomb?
I remember being really vocal on Facebook during the last Iraq invasion. That everytime my country’s American built planes flew into war, they dropped bombs and missiles worth tens of thousands each, all of which were manufactured by Northrop.
Northrop (et al) made a fortune. And for what?
Deposing a dictatorship at rhe cost of a million of lives.
Or, said otherwise, killing a million for the sake of an idea to save thousands.
Well first off, I want to thank you for motioning me away from the word democracy in the previous context. I really enjoyed that turn of intellect your motioned me towards.
I find it funny you thought Trump was believable. To me that stinks of needing a daddy figure. And Trump is definitely a daddy figure and Biden is most certainly not. I honestly never considered peoples perceptions in that way before. It explains how some people who knew Trump was a con man still were able to focus on Biden. It very well may be that some/most people are instinctually looking for a daddy figure.
FTR, I think Putin fits the bill but only, maybe, because I never hear his pip-squeak voice. I’m always reading the articles and never seeing much video of anything.
The whole nuclear strikes thing is something we’ve been avoiding. @emp did bring it up but I didn’t respond to it. There is murmuring over here among the plebes that no one would obey Putin’s order but that’s a horrible gamble to want to take.
Here in the US no one is united behind this leadership but there is very significant bi-partisanship regarding wanting to assist Ukraine. And it’s as united as I’ve ever seen it. Keep in mind, it wasn’t always this way. At one point before the invasion a senator proposed a bill to make it impossible for Ukraine to become a part of NATO. At another point soon after, our main pundit here said 'what’s wrong with Putin? Putin doesn’t {long list of rants against democrats in which he and his ethnic group are the victims}." But since the invasion, only the bloggers and podcast set have been pro-Putin. Anyone working for a network has backpeddaled weeks ago. And that’s the most united the plebes have been about a subject since after 9/11.
Excellent post @JonnyPitt, because you articulate just how complex this all is.
So many layers, so many political movements etc.
Daddy issues! How dare you! Except of course, you are correct. Mommy’s boy wants a Daddy too!!!
So many interesting points. I tend to agree with those murmuring hopefuls ; would anyone actually carry out the order to launch a nuke?
Unfortunately, i think it’s blind hope. I think the fact is there are plenty who would line up to slam that big red button. Again, i blindly hope that’s not who has access to those buttons.
I watched a video on that topic, and the scariest idea proposed was “accidental nuclear war”. That something gets launched that wasn’t meant to, and we usher in the “Age of Cockroaches” with “whoops!”.
Well nuclear war is the backdrop. It’s good of you to lay it bare. It’s not something I want think about. But when the invasion first occurred, I really pondered it hard. I then conveniently meshed it into general thoughts of death. It’s rather strange to be ambivalent towards a survive or die moment for the entire species. As in, if a nuclear winter were to occur then the species would either manage to survive or go extinct. We’ll never know what the human species ends up as. We’re either living at the thrust of a new age for better (universal equity with untold trillions of dollars of wealth) or worse (nuclear winter and possible extinction) or everything will settle down into a predictable rhthym. We’ll never know because we’ll be dead very soon.
Exactly. Which dovetails beautifully into what Kuba just posted. What if we could just wander off into that magical wilderness, and forget what it was like to worry about surviving.
That was something the Richard and Vineeto said to me, whilst i was on the floor putting together some carpentry for their new bed extension;
“There is only one person on this boat trying to survive”.
As for Kamala Harris, I’m not from the US so I didn’t know it was a dog whistle. I’m going to clean up a lot of what I’ve written here since I’m functioning at much less than normal and I’m starting to sound like something that’s deeply unpleasant. Apologies.
It’s weird to realize that something that’s been a sort of joke (to us, culturally) before is about to become reality. I haven’t had the mental resistance I should’ve had, so I’ve entered this weird state of just seeing the senseless brutality of it. I’ve also let everyone around me down with my incessant behavior, including letting lose here, immediately siding with the oppressor like a coward. It’s much easier that way to sort of give a rationale, I guess. I wasn’t the person I thought and I have a hard time liking this.
To understand from another perspective how you experience what you live, could you describe what your day consists of today, what activities do you do? Do you work long hours? Do you study? Is your day very busy, or do you have a lot of free time? (I know you at least eat and do laundry! ).
If the question bothers you, don’t worry. Just ignore it, no problem
Except of course, you are correct. Mommy’s boy wants a Daddy too!!!
).