Hello all,
Vineeto recently sent me an e-mail which contained a long and detailed response from Richard regarding @rick’s “Burnt Toast” (Part 1; Part 2) posts.
I have reproduced it below, adjusting the formatting to be appropriate for this forum, for all to avail themselves of. Brackets with “Ed:” are my own additions/edits.
Cheers,
Claudiu
Part 1/3
Continued…
illegitimate (adj.): 1. (a.) being against established or accepted rules and standards; [e.g.]: “An illegitimate means of winning a debate”; (b.) being against the law; illegal; [e.g.]: “As it was an illegitimate contract it was void at law”; (c.) not valid or defensible; [e.g.]: “Their reasons for missing school are illegitimate”; (d.) incorrectly deduced; illogical; [e.g.]: “It is an illegitimate conclusion drawn from a false premise”; (e.) (biology): 1. an illegitimate fertilisation; [e.g.]: “The fertilisation of pistils by stamens not of their own length, in heterogonously dimorphic and trimorphic flowers”. (Charles Darwin); 2. unacceptable as a scientific name because of not conforming to the international rules of nomenclature; [e.g.]: “By conventional nomenclature it was considered an illegitimate designator”; 2.(offensive): born to parents not married to each other; [e.g.]: “In 1985 the news of his illegitimate child came out”; (adv.): illegitimately; (n.): illegitimacy, illegitimateness. [from il-, prefix, var., by assimilation, of in-, ‘not’ (before l, in- is usually assimilated to il- and before r to ir- as well as before b, m, and p to im-), e.g.: illation, illogical, illegal + Middle English legitimat, ‘born in wedlock’, from Medieval Latin lēgitimātus, ‘law-worthy’, past participle of lēgitimāre, ‘to make lawful’, from Latin lēgitimus, ‘legitimate’, singular of lēx, lēg-, ‘law’]. [emphasis added]. ~ (American Heritage Dictionary). ↩︎
hyperopically (adv.): in a hyperopic way (viz.: farsighted; of, having, or pertaining to hyperopia). [etymology: from hyperopic + -ally]. ~ (Wiktionary English Dictionary). ↩︎
a straw man (sometimes written as “strawman”) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man”. The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent’s proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., “stand up a straw man”) and the subsequent refutation of that false argument (“knock down a straw man”) instead of the opponent’s proposition. Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects. Straw man tactics in the United Kingdom may also be known as an “Aunt Sally”, after a pub game of the same name, where patrons throw sticks or battens at a post to knock off a skittle balanced on top.
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
• Person 1 asserts proposition X.
• Person 2 argues against a superficially similar proposition Y, falsely, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.
This reasoning is a fallacy of relevance: it fails to address the proposition in question by misrepresenting the opposing position. For example:
• Quoting an opponent’s words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations which misrepresent the opponent’s intentions (see “fallacy of quoting out of context”).
• Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying this person’s arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of such a position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.
• Oversimplifying an opponent’s argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
• Exaggerating (sometimes grossly exaggerating) an opponent’s argument, then attacking this exaggerated version.
[Continued on adjacent tooltip.] ↩︎
[Continued from adjacent tooltip.]
Examples: Straw man arguments often arise in public debates such as a (hypothetical) prohibition debate:
• A: “We should relax the laws on beer”.
• B: “No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification”.
The original proposal was to relax laws on beer. Person B has misconstrued and/or misrepresented this proposal by responding to it as if it had been “unrestricted access to intoxicants”. It is a logical fallacy because Person A never advocated allowing said unrestricted access to intoxicants (this is also a “slippery slope” argument). ~ (2012 Wikipedia Encyclopaedia). ↩︎
Constituent elements as in, chemical elements [see 2nd tooltip] and compounds [see 3rd tooltip] (‘atoms’ and ‘molecules’, being mathematical models and/or theoretical constructs, have no existence in actuality). ↩︎ ↩︎ ↩︎
chemical element (n.): any of the more than a hundred known substances (of which ninety-two occur naturally) which cannot be separated into simpler substances and which singly or in combination as compounds⁰⁵⁾ constitute all matter; (synonyms): element; (related words): substance (the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists); metallic element (any of several chemical elements that are usually shiny solids that conduct heat or electricity and can be formed into sheets etc.; metal): non-metal (a chemical element lacking typical metallic properties); hydrogen (a non-metallic element which is normally a colourless and odourless highly flammable gas; the simplest and lightest and most abundant element in the universe); nitrogen (a common non-metallic element which is normally a colourless odourless tasteless inert gas; constitutes seventy-eight percent of the atmosphere by volume; a constituent of all living tissues); inert gas, also called, noble gas, rare gas or argonon (any of the unreactive gaseous elements helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon); calcium (a white metallic element which burns with a brilliant light; the fifth most abundant element in the earth’s crust; an important component of most plants and animals); copper (a ductile malleable reddish-brown corrosion-resistant diamagnetic metallic element; occurs in various minerals but is the only metal which occurs abundantly in large masses; used as an electrical and thermal conductor); aluminium (a silvery ductile metallic element found primarily in bauxite); chlorine, (a common non-metallic element belonging to the halogens; best known as a heavy yellow irritating toxic gas; used to purify water and as a bleaching agent and disinfectant; occurs naturally only as a salt, as in sea water). ~ (Princeton’s WordNet 3.0). ↩︎ ↩︎ ↩︎
chemical compound (n.): a substance formed by chemical union of two or more chemical elements as ingredients in definite proportion by weight; (synonyms): compound; (related words): organic compound (any compound of elemental carbon and another element); elemental (in elements & compounds: of, relating to, or denoting a chemical element); allomorph (any of several different crystalline forms of the same chemical compound; [e.g.]: “calcium carbonate occurs in the allomorphs calcite and aragonite”); exotherm (a compound which gives off heat during its formation and absorbs heat during its decomposition); (related words): nitrochloroform (also known as chloropicrin; an oily colourless insoluble toxic lachrymatory liquid compound comprised of three parts carbon chloride and two parts nitrous oxygen (ᴄᴄʟ₃ɴᴏ₂) which causes skin, lung, and mucous membrane irritation; used in tear gas and in dyestuffs, disinfectants, insecticides, and soil fumigants); water (a binary compound comprised of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen (ʜ₂ᴏ), facetiously yet accurately known as dihydrogen monoxide, which occurs at room temperature as a clear colourless odourless tasteless liquid; freezes into ice below zero degrees centigrade and boils into gas above a hundred degrees centigrade; widely used as a solvent and a myriad other essential services); carbon dioxide (also known as carbonic acid gas; a heavy odourless colourless gas, comprised of two parts oxygen and one part carbon (ᴄᴏ₂), formed during respiration and by the decomposition of organic substances, which is absorbed, when dissolved in water, to form the calcareous material of molluscs, crustaceans, corals, etc., as well as being absorbed from the air by plants in photosynthesis to form lignum and xylem, the woody part of plants (in a tree trunk the innermost part of the wood is dead but structurally strong xylem, while the outer part consists of living xylem, and beyond it, layers of cambium and phloem); consisting of various elongated cells which function as tubes, xylem is a tissue in vascular plants which carries water and dissolved minerals up from the roots through the stem to the leaves and provides support for the softer tissues); blackdamp, chokedamp (the atmosphere in a mine following an explosion; high in carbon dioxide and incapable of supporting life). ~ (Princeton’s WordNet 3.0). ↩︎ ↩︎ ↩︎
Each and every constituent element [see adjacent tooltips] is thus sempiternal, aeonian; perdurable, perpetual (as in already has been and always will be constituting absolutely any and every material thing whichsoever taking place anywhere and everywhere wheresoever in the boundlessness of infinite space and dynamically occurring anywhen and everywhen whensoever in the limitlessness of eternal time and physically happening anyhow and everyway howsoever in which anything and everything whatsoever can eventuate whencesoever at anyplace and everyplace whithersoever). ↩︎
As a flesh-and-blood body only one is nothing other than this, literally. ↩︎
Part 2/3
Continued…
chemical element (n.): any of the more than a hundred known substances (of which ninety-two occur naturally) which cannot be separated into simpler substances and which singly or in combination as compounds⁰⁵⁾ constitute all matter; (synonyms): element; (related words): substance (the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists); metallic element (any of several chemical elements that are usually shiny solids that conduct heat or electricity and can be formed into sheets etc.; metal): non-metal (a chemical element lacking typical metallic properties); hydrogen (a non-metallic element which is normally a colourless and odourless highly flammable gas; the simplest and lightest and most abundant element in the universe); nitrogen (a common non-metallic element which is normally a colourless odourless tasteless inert gas; constitutes seventy-eight percent of the atmosphere by volume; a constituent of all living tissues); inert gas, also called, noble gas, rare gas or argonon (any of the unreactive gaseous elements helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon); calcium (a white metallic element which burns with a brilliant light; the fifth most abundant element in the earth’s crust; an important component of most plants and animals); copper (a ductile malleable reddish-brown corrosion-resistant diamagnetic metallic element; occurs in various minerals but is the only metal which occurs abundantly in large masses; used as an electrical and thermal conductor); aluminium (a silvery ductile metallic element found primarily in bauxite); chlorine, (a common non-metallic element belonging to the halogens; best known as a heavy yellow irritating toxic gas; used to purify water and as a bleaching agent and disinfectant; occurs naturally only as a salt, as in sea water). ~ (Princeton’s WordNet 3.0). ↩︎ ↩︎
chemical compound (n.): a substance formed by chemical union of two or more chemical elements as ingredients in definite proportion by weight; (synonyms): compound; (related words): organic compound (any compound of elemental carbon and another element); elemental (in elements & compounds: of, relating to, or denoting a chemical element); allomorph (any of several different crystalline forms of the same chemical compound; [e.g.]: “calcium carbonate occurs in the allomorphs calcite and aragonite”); exotherm (a compound which gives off heat during its formation and absorbs heat during its decomposition); (related words): nitrochloroform (also known as chloropicrin; an oily colourless insoluble toxic lachrymatory liquid compound comprised of three parts carbon chloride and two parts nitrous oxygen (ᴄᴄʟ₃ɴᴏ₂) which causes skin, lung, and mucous membrane irritation; used in tear gas and in dyestuffs, disinfectants, insecticides, and soil fumigants); water (a binary compound comprised of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen (ʜ₂ᴏ), facetiously yet accurately known as dihydrogen monoxide, which occurs at room temperature as a clear colourless odourless tasteless liquid; freezes into ice below zero degrees centigrade and boils into gas above a hundred degrees centigrade; widely used as a solvent and a myriad other essential services); carbon dioxide (also known as carbonic acid gas; a heavy odourless colourless gas, comprised of two parts oxygen and one part carbon (ᴄᴏ₂), formed during respiration and by the decomposition of organic substances, which is absorbed, when dissolved in water, to form the calcareous material of molluscs, crustaceans, corals, etc., as well as being absorbed from the air by plants in photosynthesis to form lignum and xylem, the woody part of plants (in a tree trunk the innermost part of the wood is dead but structurally strong xylem, while the outer part consists of living xylem, and beyond it, layers of cambium and phloem); consisting of various elongated cells which function as tubes, xylem is a tissue in vascular plants which carries water and dissolved minerals up from the roots through the stem to the leaves and provides support for the softer tissues); blackdamp, chokedamp (the atmosphere in a mine following an explosion; high in carbon dioxide and incapable of supporting life). ~ (Princeton’s WordNet 3.0). ↩︎ ↩︎
Part 3/3
(Ed [i.e. Claudiu’s] note: I was particularly gobsmacked at how Rick’s initial snipped-without-indication version of this quote was presented as if Richard was indicating that one should be saying !YES! to the rapist, as in that “embracing, welcoming, endorsing, approving, and saying YES! to everything” is what Richard was saying to do, yet how the very first line of Richard’s response clearly and unambiguously indicates that this is exactly not what Richard was saying, viz.: “I do not advise anyone to ‘accept the world as it is, with people as they are’ […]” (emphasis added)).
It became clear here, and is further reinforced below, that the only apparent ambiguity or confusion here is on the part of Rick, which he is attempting to foist onto Srid here (and later onto this forum) via his mis-quotes and deficient understanding and reasoning.)
The twenty-five other messages that Richard copied for reference, follow below.
Cheers,
Claudiu
liker (n.): a person who likes; [e.g.]: “In reality though, extroversion was not related to being a liker or expecting to be liked”. (Scott Barry Kaufman; 2011). ~ (Collins English Dictionary). ↩︎
A rather quaint clay-pit tale which nonetheless depicts the range of naïveness from being sincere to becoming naïve and all the way through being naïveté itself⁽*⁾ to an actual innocence.
⁽*⁾To be naïveté itself (i.e., naïveté embodied as a childlike persona with adult sensibilities), which is to be the closest one can to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’ (innocence is where ‘self’ is not), one is both likeable and liking for herewith lies tenderness and/or sweetness and togetherness and/or closeness whereupon moment-to-moment experiencing is of traipsing through the world about in a state of wide-eyed wonder and amazement as if a child again (guileless, artless, ingenuous, innocuous)—yet with adult sensibilities whereby the distinction betwixt being naïve and being gullible is readily separable—simply marvelling at the sheer magnificence of this oh-so-material universe’s absoluteness and unabashedly delighting in its boundless beneficence, its limitless largesse, as being the experiencing is inherently cornucopian (due to the near-absence of agency which ensues when the controlling doer is abeyant and the naïve beer is ascendant), with a blitheness and a gaiety such that the likelihood of the magical fairy-tale-like nature of this paradisaical terraqueous globe, this bounteously verdant and azure planet, becoming ever-so-sweetly apparent, as an experiential actuality, is almost always imminent. ↩︎
Remaining Quotes Part 1/2
(Ed: bolded the titles)
Remaining Quotes Part 2/2
(Ed: bolded the titles)
I wonder what @rick’s response will be, to being directly and unambiguously pointed out explicitly where he has gone wrong, by the very person whose words he used to arrive at his erroneous conclusions!
Cheers,
Claudiu
Good. I appreciate Richard’s feedback, regardless of what he says. I’ll evaluate it all line by line.
Just to be clear: it was Claudiu who authored this bit?
Ok so I didn’t read all of it, but my understanding is as below :
Although the stuff of the universe is never created nor destroyed (it merely reshuffles in infinite complexities), the forms this perdurable stuff takes are indeed finite. Therefore a flesh and blood body (although being made from perdurable stuff) is itself mortal. This is why Richard can say “I am the infinite and eternal universe experiencing itself as a flesh and blood body” AND at the same time that “I am mortal”, they are both correct and not mutually exclusive.
The perdurable stuff of the universe has arranged itself in the form of a mortal flesh and blood body.
From my understanding here is where @rick has gone wrong :
So as above, the very stuff of the universe (the components) is perfect and pure and yet it can be made to act in ways which are not, to take the ‘form of’ - the wars, murders, suicides, rape, child abuse etc.
Again both statements can be correct and are not mutually exclusive. Although the wars, murders, rape, child abuse etc are themselves not perfect, the very stuff which comprises the very flesh and blood bodies involved is itself perfect and pure.
So this perfect and pure stuff of the universe is being made to act (by the identity within) in a way which is NOT perfect and pure.
So all in all it is possible to have imperfect events in a perfect universe.
Indeed! The way I would put it is that, there is the ultimate and the relative. The ultimate is the nature of all the perdurable & actually-existing matter as sold/as energy etc., which is perfect and undying. There is nothing to do but to enjoy and appreciate this ultimate nature of actuality, and of course, to be living as that, as a flesh and blood human being, is literally infinitely unmeasurably astounding and wonderful and renders it clear how all of ‘my’ doings and achievements are but meagre and paltry scraps.
But as soon as you start to talk about the particular configuration of this perfect matter, now you have necessarily moved to the relative, which is where the 1-to-10 scale applies. There’s no way around it. And here it makes sense to be enjoying those 10-of-10 things on that scale more than the 1-of-10 things, and obviously, to not be enjoying the negative-10-of-10 things like murder, war, rape, torture, etc.
The confusion comes from conflating the two and therefore believing that one must enjoy even those things like murder, war, rape, torture, etc., along with the perpetrating murderers/warmongers/rapists/torturers/etc.
I would also say that murder, war, rape, torture, suicide, and similar things, are particularly egregious because, unlike natural disasters which are unavoidable[1], they are all completely unnecessary and occur only because of the rotten-to-the-core feeling-beings within. This is all clear for anybody with a connection to pure intent, increasingly clear as one goes from sincere to naive to apperceptive / feeling good to feeling great to feeling excellent to an excellence experience to a PCE.
The best anyone can do is, rather than trying to philosophize or intellectually understand all this, is to set about on the path of changing themselves to be ever-happier and ever-more-harmless, such as to become a felicitous person, minimizing both the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’, to get to the point where one can allow the purity of the perfection of actuality to become ever-more-apparent, and eventually to allow it to live one’s life and from there to self-immolate and end all this sadness, badness, and madness in one human being, forever, thus inspiring and encouraging and setting an example (just by existing) to other humans so they can do the same!
Besides which, it is trivial to understand anyway with the experiential benefit of actuality, of PCEs and EEs and IEs, even if one could not put it quite as precisely and directly to-the-point as Richard did (I was aware (and I think others were too) that there was no actual problem, contradiction or confusion, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on exactly why.)
Cheers,
Claudiu