>>‘Vineeto’: If one wants to be actually free of the Human Condition, one has to examine and recognize that ‘good’ simply means ‘morally acceptable’ and ‘right’ is just another ethical value, both of which vary from tribe to tribe and from society to society. (Actualism, Vineeto, AF List, James, 11.1.2000)
Andrew: This reaffirms the startling and terrible premise; if for the most extreme, and historically accurate example, a child is sexually exploited and then slaughtered on an altar, both the child and the sexual exploiter and slaughterer would have experienced good feelings.
All conformed to the morality of the tribe and group. (…)
So, this requires some consideration. If all involved are experiencing good feelings, because they are morally in alignment with the tribe, how is that something to be free of?
I am not objecting to actual freedom here. I am not objecting at all, honestly! This just seems so bizarre!
Good feelings arise through the fact that an individual is completely conformed with the moral code of the tribe.
Or is that a misunderstanding? (link)
Hi Andrew,
Why do you find it bizarre that ‘good’ feelings arise from feeling virtuous (obeying the general moral (and ethical) code of the tribe?
Have you really understood what the aim of the actualism method is – being happy and harmless (experiencing the felicitous and innocuous feelings)? You cannot be genuinely happy unless you are harmless. ‘Good’ feelings, such as love, compassion or being virtuous is not equivalent to feeling good the way it is used on the AFT site.
Richard: (‘feeling good’ is an unambiguous term – it is a general sense of well-being – and if anyone wants to argue about what feeling good means … then do not even bother trying to do this at all). (Richard, This Moment of Being Alive).
Richard: Here it is, again, at its most basic: it is nice to feel good (whereas feeling bad is not nice).
Many years ago, now, I was sitting out to the side of my cave-site on a steep hillside, in the rain-forested hinterland to the north-west of where my dwelling is currently located, conversing with someone known to me from my art-college days – we had met-up on the Indian sub-continent a year or so before and had travelled together up into the foothills of the Himalayas (staying for a few months on a ridge about ten kilometres above Almora, Uttarakhand, known as Kasar Devi after a 2nd Century temple situated there) where many a deep and meaningful discussion had taken place (about life, the cosmos, and what it was to be spiritually enlightened/ mystically awakened, as he had been a spiritual-seeker of many years standing) with some profound experiences happening for him, thereof, including a three-day peak experience which settled into an unmistakable ASC thereafter – when all-of-a-sudden he stopped mid-sentence and, looking at me with head tilted quizzically, asked: ‘Why would you want to feel good all the time’?
Quite frankly, I sat there in near-astonishment, for a moment, before answering with what probably sounded to him somewhat tautologous: ‘Because it feels good to feel good’, and then adding, upon seeing him looking askance as if at listening to a simpleton, ‘whereas feeling bad doesn’t feel good, it feels bad; feeling good doesn’t feel bad, it feels good’. And, furthermore, for good measure: ‘It really is as simple as that … and, as feeling good is a nice feeling to be feeling, all of the time, why would you want to feel bad instead’?
To this very day, thirty years hence, it is still somewhat astounding that there be so many who do not grasp this simple fact which the naïve boy from the farm had embraced whole-heartedly. (Richard, List D, No. 4b, 4 July 2015).
Andrew: To go further, to prove this isn’t written with an adversarial intent; I have never examined “good feelings”.
Shocking as that may be, I never really got beyond any of the bad feelings.
I genuinely find that funny!! Like it’s really funny to me that it’s true!
Indeed, I am having a thought now that I will continue to explore. “Good feelings” especially the compassionate, empathetic, and loving kind are so deeply embedded in the fabric of who I am, I am starting to wonder if it was always going to be a challenge for me to question anything.
The thought being, I find anger so refreshing! Sadness too. I have not had motivation to be free of being “mad” and “sad” as they are a holiday for me.
That’s a conjecture, and speculation. Questioning “good feelings” especially in the context of this quotation, is radically new to me!
Thanks for the quote. Hopefully all can see my smiling and perplexed face in writing this. (link)
To save you further speculations here is what Richard has to say –
Richard: The words ‘good feelings’ – which refer to the affectionate and desirable emotions and passions (those that are loving and trusting) – and the words ‘bad feelings’ – which refer to the hostile and invidious emotions and passions (those that are hateful and fearful) – are but a way of describing the effect of those feelings both on oneself and others.
Sometimes they are called the positive and negative feelings. (Richard, AF List, No. 44e, 1 Oct 2003).
And to make the difference clear between feeling good and ‘good’ feelings –
Jonathan: [Richard]: What actualism – the wide and wondrous path to actual freedom – is on about is a ‘virtual freedom’ (which is not to be confused with cyber-space’s ‘virtual reality’) wherein the ‘good’ feelings – the affectionate and desirable emotions and passions (those that are loving and trusting) are minimised along with the ‘bad’ feelings – the hostile and invidious emotions and passions (those that are hateful and fearful) – so that one is free to feel good, feel happy and feel perfect for 99% of the time. I make this very clear in my writing: [snip]. What I am reading here is, ‘good feelings along with bad feelings are minimized so that one is free to feel good feelings and thereby make a PCE more likely. Could you clarify?
Richard: Sure … the [quote] ‘good’ [endquote] feelings mentioned are the affectionate and desirable emotions and passions (those that are loving and trusting) and the [quote] ‘bad’ [endquote] feelings mentioned are the hostile and invidious emotions and passions (those that are hateful and fearful) whereas feeling good/ feeling happy/ feeling perfect are the felicitous and innocuous feelings (those that are delightful and harmonious).
Thus what you are reading – ‘good feelings along with bad feelings are minimised so that one is free to feel good feelings and thereby make a PCE more likely’ – would look something like this when spelled-out in full:
• [example only]: ‘the affectionate and desirable emotions and passions (those that are loving and trusting), along with the hostile and invidious emotions and passions (those that are hateful and fearful), are minimised so that one is free to feel the felicitous and innocuous feelings (those that are delightful and harmonious) and thereby make a pure consciousness experience (PCE) more likely’. [end example].
Furthermore, as I say in that text of mine you quoted, I make this very clear in my writing:
• [Richard]: ‘… by asking ‘how am I experiencing this moment of being alive’ the reward is immediate; by finding out what triggered off the loss of the felicitous/ innocuous feelings, one commences another period of enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive. It is all about being here at this moment in time and this place in space … and if you are not feeling happy and harmless you have no chance whatsoever of being here in this actual world (a glum and/or grumpy person locks themselves out of the perfect purity of this moment and place). And by having already established feeling good (a general sense of well-being) as the bottom line for moment-to-moment experiencing then if, or when, feeling happy and harmless fades there is that comfortable baseline from which to suss out where, when, how, why – and what for – the feeling of being happy and harmless ceased happening … and all the while feeling good whilst going about it. (…) These are all feelings, this is not perfection personified yet … but then again, feeling perfect for twenty three hours and fifty nine minutes a day (a virtual freedom) is way beyond normal human expectations anyway. Also, it is a very tricky way of both getting men fully into their feelings for the first time in their life and getting women to examine their feelings one by one instead of being run by a basketful of them all at once. One starts to feel ‘alive’. Being ‘alive’ is to be paying attention – exclusive attention – to this moment in time and this place in space (…)’. (Richard, Articles, This Moment of Being Alive).
(Richard, AF List, Jonathan, 4 Jan 2006).
The admission that “The thought being, I find anger so refreshing! Sadness too. I have not had motivation to be free of being “mad” and “sad” as they are a holiday for me” may well be an explanation why you have a certain resistance to examine “good feelings”.
I have given you these extensive quotes so that you can base your exploration on factual information and experiential reports, and thus your investigation into your psyche can be more sincere (in accord with the facts).
‘Vineeto’: As humans we don’t want to lose the other’s affection and reassurance, the appreciation of our peers, the cozy safety of being part of a family or group, the comforting knowledge of doing what everyone considers the ‘right’ thing or the ‘good’ deed.
Freedom lies in the opposite direction. (Actualism, Vineeto, AF List, James, 11.1.2000)
Andrew: So, there is something missing in this thought between the “cozy safety” and the thought that one would want to be “free” from it.
Why?
If the good feelings arise from doing what ever “every one else considers the right or good deed” then completely conforming to the same will result in perpetual good feelings.
Where is the trigger that anyone would want to be free? (link)
This is such a silly question. Have you been having continuous ‘good’ feelings doing “the right or good deed”? If not, why not? I am genuinely wondering about your intent of writing this?
Weren’t you once relieved to understand your guilt, the feeling of not “good”?
Andrew: It’s always been a huge source of guilt, that I would desire there to be something “wrong” with me. Whilst these entire time, there was indeed always something that was “off” but it was not directly those things at all. (21 Oct 2025)
Andrew: Thank you Vineeto!
I appreciate your time on this topic, as it has been so central to me, even when I didn’t know it was!
This quote above, supports something that has been in my thinking lately, at least it’s a similar insight. That ‘being’ uses ‘morality’ and indeed any ‘value’ system at all, as a tool. the ‘self’ is surviving through the very tools which are “supposedly” keeping it in check! (22 Oct 2025)
I can somehow understand you are not interested enough to read other people’s posts here on the forum, who lately talked a lot about the role ‘good’ feelings play in the scheme of their investigations of being able to enjoy and appreciate being alive, but to forget your own significant insights is quite an achievement.
Cheers Vineeto