@Andrew and @henryyyyyyyyyy I found the most excellent use of my innate intelligence. I allowed it and encouraged it to constantly verify whether the time was now or not and then I allowed and encouraged it to reflect on what those answers could possibly mean. It has led to the most amazing discoveries.
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12|7|21
Thinking about all the arguing, the tension I have to avoid or fight others
If they say something I disagree with
I can’t stand sitting there while that happens, ‘I’ rise to the occasion
There’s something to do with influence there, I know that they’re talking to other people too so I have to like intercept them before they keep spreading what they’re saying or living the way they’re talking about. Obviously I can’t do that for everyone on earth anyway though, there are tons of people running around with super messy ideas out there. I just get so focused on whoever’s in front of me.
And then it ends up getting aggressive because it’s ‘so important,’ I ‘have to.’ Obviously I’m willing to bring aggression in those moments. So I’m not even living up to what I’m saying.
‘I’ think the aggression is worth it in that moment, to ‘win them over.’
And I want everyone else to see how right I am
I relish the opportunity to brag about my ‘great understanding.’
And maybe if the other person also wants to flex their own ‘great understanding’ then there’s a clash.
I also can’t stand kowtowing to whatever they’re saying, which I certainly don’t have to do. I guess I can just sit there and not say anything. Or, respond but it’s no big deal. They probably won’t agree with me anyway.
Then it’s about loneliness, because the end of that is them leaving. I’m by myself.
The other night I was feeling bad about being by myself for a bit. I was tired, and there have been some people I’ve been hanging out with and having a great time. It cast ‘alone, lonely’ into relief.
That’s part of the arguing thing too, I want to be having this great time with people. I think I’m a little annoyed when they push back at me or it brings out aggression in them. That’s interesting. It’s inevitable that people will get upset. That’s what people do. I don’t need to be annoyed with them about that.
The ‘group’ ‘good time’ is interrupted, but that doesn’t mean my good time will need to be. It’s the same as the realization the other night, that I’m going along with the group when I reject myself. I’m rejecting the experience that’s happening with the annoyed/aggressive person. I’m ‘jumping on board’ to that vibe.
I have a pretty narrow window of what a ‘hangout’ should be, too. I talk and talk and talk and talk. That’s what ‘I’ want to do. There are lots of things to do. It doesn’t have to be that all the time. I can roll with whatever, roll with silence.
–
The biggest annoyance to me is when someone has a strong belief that I don’t think is accurate.
I can already see that a discussion will probably become an argument/fight.
Richard talks about being able to argue and enjoy it, it’s a way of ‘sussing things out.’ A reasoned argument, with relevant facts brought up.
So it’s telling that just the idea of an argument is trouble for me. Why not argue, when the situation calls for it?
I have pride about being the one that’s right. If I go into a discussion with someone I’ve already decided who’s going to be right: me.
Which is ridiculous because I don’t know everything… they may bring up a fact that I didn’t know about, thus changing my mind.
I have to allow for that possibility if I’m going to be genuinely there in the discussion. Actually listen to what they’re saying. Be considered in the things I say, to not overreach just to win.
It doesn’t have to be about winning, it can be about mutual investigation. Even if they don’t want that, I can want that.
–
Maybe after we discuss, and they still disagree with me, they’re still emotional about it, they go to their friends (or mutual friends) and complain about me, launch into how I’m so wrong about this or that. People do that all the time.
That’s setting up a future rejection (I guess it’s rejection right there and then, actually).
They think I’m weird/bad/stupid.
I must think highly of them somehow if I’m worried about their feedback/judgment.
That’s part of ‘friendship,’ “this person is good/important/cool somehow,” I want to keep them around/in my life, so it’s a big deal when there’s a disagreement like that. I’m already anticipating the future rejection.
If I’m impressed by someone, I’m looking up to them somehow. Which means that I’m looking down on myself. I think that I’m missing something.
Maybe I emulate whatever it is in them, in hopes of doing it myself. Of ‘being that.’ I’ve done that a lot in my life.
I’m trying to figure out what the perfect form to get attention from others is. I’ve changed shape many times.
And it’s their emotional reactions which tell me if I’m ‘successful’ or not. But, of course, that never lasts. Their emotion changes. I want more.
The whole reason I’ve been doing all this, all this time, is to not be alone. For others to like & love me.
I want to talk them into ‘my’ version of things for the same reason, so they/I can be liked & loved.
“If only everyone did these things, then liking & loving would happen”
That’s belief.
I’ve done it with actualism too. I’ve treated it like just another belief.
The liking & loving is happening in instinctive moments, it’s not because of ‘doing the right thing’ or having the right beliefs.
I’m doing it all the time, feeling in all kinds of different ways & rejecting others in all kinds of ways large & small.
All the sense of importance comes from thinking that that is how peace is produced. How love is produced.
I’m actually interrupting peace with my argumentativeness.
They most likely won’t be able to see peace/experience peace if I’m bringing an aggressive argument to them.
I’m definitely allowing my own peace to be broken. ‘I’ believe that peace will be ‘over there’ if we follow my directions that I know about.
But I’m not peaceful. I don’t have what I want, I haven’t succeeded at having it completely.
There’s something about identity that inherently has to break the peace. That has to be aggressive.
It’s born out of a defensive sense
I feel danger, I’m trying to get somewhere else
I think there’s a problem
I think I’ll be ok if I get ‘over there’
I’m willing to do anything if it gets me ‘over there’
‘I’ think freedom means “always getting what I want”
Which means belief, I’m chasing various beliefs
And willing to sacrifice someone else’s freedom or comfort or peace of mind so I can get what I want.
I’m never going to be able to get things just how I want, especially when other people are involved.
So I’ll always have some excuse to not enjoy & appreciate, and to not like what’s happening. There’s always another ‘over there.’
Which means I’m always fighting.
12|8|21
Glimpses of the spirit.
Glimpses of dream-logic.
The spirit animating the body
Driving my limbs.
Imagination.
Reality
as shared dreaming.
“what will happen next?”
and spirit tells me.
Only ever a dream.
A fear-fueled dream.
Hitting familiar beats.
Known outcomes.
Violence
in the name of love, or evil.
“Justification.”
Justice only ever leads to more of same.
–
The other night I got a burst of motivation from consideration of the possibility of being ‘the best.’
Normally this drive is wasted on any individual pursuit, but here is the possibility for the mastery of the art of being, itself: the final act - immolation.
The best. It’s right there. All the motivation I need to finish.
Details matter. Everything matters.
Every little slip-up is worthy of attention.
No interest in letting sleeping dogs lie.
It matters not if ‘everyone else is doing it.’
No settling.
–
In a dream last night:
I’m on a bus watching out the window
There’s an impoverished, miserly man on a rock in the sea
Is he going to commit suicide?
Does he have a path back to shore?
With my changing emotion-prediction, the very rock he’s on changes shape: with greater trepidation the rock grows jagged; with more calm, the rock shrinks, is now close to shore.
With my fascination, I teleport. I’m no longer on the bus; I’m on the shore now. The situation is no longer distanced.
My ‘being’ changed the very image of the situation. If my fear had mounted, perhaps he would have flung himself into the sea, or a great wave could have taken him.
Later, on the bus again, I encounter a girl and same happens: with greater confidence she comes closer; with greater fear, rejection and dislike come.
Awake, it’s the same, but the dreaming is less obvious: it is reality.
The dreaming animates my body: do I speak up? Do I get out of bed? Do I cower? All are born of my predictions, and all create situations: my fear triggers their fear, and creates fear-full situations.
“Is something good happening? Am I in danger? Oh god, I’m in danger, something bad is about to happen”
And then it does. Maybe. On the human scale.
So, all those ‘manifester’ types have a point. But they’re still living inside of reality.
In the end, they’re in disagreement with actuality: the shoe never fits properly.
Sensibility makes sense with all this (ha).
The spirit is less & less influential, the sensitive observations of the actual begin to be what matters. Where attention is directed.
I can see when spirit begins to ‘speak.’ Like a ghost. A ‘being.’ Me. Truly unimaginable to exist without it.
And yet, it doesn’t exist. This actual is all that is.
Perfection.
It’s only ever ‘me’ that has a problem with things. Spirit.
And then starts the whole drama, all the cajoling, wheedling, seductions, arguments, fights, darkness.
All because ‘I’ drop in.
–
“Something bad is happening”
“Something good is happening”
’What is happening, is perfect.'
Every aspect of it.
Everything is falling/fallen into place.
Fascination.
No need to fight anyone. No need to love anyone.
It’s me in the way
The bleeding edge of reality
Nothing is going wrong, nor can it
The despairing is ‘my’ action
I just do what’s most sensible, now
–
Others can’t see it, but that’s no denial of perfection. ‘Humanity’ has a problem with everything. There are only tiny pockets that humanity likes. Humanity even likes suffering. It’s completely backwards.
I have to go the opposite direction of everyone else.
It’s exhilarating.
I don’t have to fight anyone, because the perfection is already happening. It’s not something ‘I’ have to make.
Their demands for ‘respect’ are in the way of peace
I don’t have to do that
(Cont.)
Still having a reaction when I see someone doing something I consider silly
That’s normal, it’s disgust at ‘having to’ do whatever they’re doing.
I don’t have to do what they’re doing. And I can’t stop them. So the disgust is doing nothing.
It’s just interrupting perfection.
–
A bit hungry rn and allowing that discomfort to bring me down
A few different things around food that ‘I’ don’t like
It must have started somewhere originally and then spread to more food-related things
I find myself not eating to avoid the whole situation (substituting coffee), and then being forced to hurriedly eat from a place of greater hunger
Perfection is now, I don’t get a different universe to live in.
No time to wait.
12|9|21
What’s between me and perfection?
Hunger is there
I’ll have a bite in a few minutes so that is ok
Just had a really nice phone conversation with my partner, all my work on that and around ‘arguing’ has paid off
There were a few opportunities where it could have gone bumpily but it didn’t
It’s pretty crazy how much other people respond to emotional tones. When I’m light, clear, easy, it carries over. They reflect it. Their bumpy things settle quickly. It gives them so much space to operate.
–
What’s in the way of experiencing this moment as perfect?
I have some over-arching concern that my life isn’t going the right way, as in career, as in having the right friends, as in having the right partners
There’s a big narrative operating in the background still
It’s funny because it’s almost dormant… spiritual Henry ‘put it to sleep’ awhile back, but it is still there. A sleeping giant.
I thought that would be enough. That it would leave. Nope!!!
Ok, what does it consist of
Some certain pretty girl situation, maybe mash all the rom-coms together and that gives you an idea. Something fairy-tale-like. That’s funny I put it that way because that’s how Richard describes the actual experience. The fairy-tale is already happening, without me. I’m missing it.
Some magical job situation where I’m like ‘so fulfilled,’ and other people are impressed by. ‘Impressive.’ Like a nasa engineer or something. Wizard-like. Part of that requires others to ‘get it,’ like how sending a rocket to the moon is understandable and impressive.
Actually I got a moment like that out of someone… I was describing how one can be right in front of an angry person, and feel nothing about it… that situation, too, is perfect… it wowed her, she ‘got it.’ So I guess I got what I wanted out of that.
Another part of the job stuff is making lots of money… that is part of my fantasy.
Which also means part of ‘my perfect lyf’ is doing fancy people stuff like going on vacations, owning all the nice things, fancy cars etc.
That is not what is happening.
–
A sense of ‘performance’ around not ‘upsetting others.’
It is their problem if they’re upset. If I’m just existing and not feeding ‘them,’ and they’re upset by that, I don’t want to do anything differently. That’s ok with me.
I just have to experientially feel that, ‘ok.’ Perfect, actually. Nothing is going wrong.
It feeds ‘my’ signal that something is going wrong. There are certain outcomes I want, certain things I want others to feel around me.
It’s uncomfortable for me to sit there all chilling when someone else is anxious
I still want certain outcomes from them, that they’re not fulfilling.
Which is where my rejection of them comes from
–
The route to freedom that is the most attractive to ‘me’ is the most dramatic one - I find myself fascinated and absorbed with Richard’s descriptions of the look to what lies beyond and his becoming free, both of which are filled with apprehension, dread, physical phenomena, and general drama. So be it! ‘I’ want to go out with a ‘bang,’ and a ‘bang’ I shall get. Pull out all the stops, and as Srinath says go for the direct approach… ‘I’ will need a sonic boom to generate the necessary velocity to break ‘my’ gravitational force. I’ve always been one for extremes, so that’s what I’ll do: what ‘I’ have always been good at.
I don’t have to play nice anymore, as I know that what I’m doing is extreme. I don’t have to explain it to anyone else, I don’t have to worry about what they’ll think. I just have to go, and if they want they can watch the view.
‘I’ still want to be seen… that is ‘my’ last wish, to be spotted as like a meteor in reverse I exit the atmosphere never to be seen again.
Can this happen? I don’t know. Is that what the sonic boom is for? Maybe I just need to impress myself, once and for all. What could be bigger than infinitude? Certainly not ‘me.’ It’s far bigger.
My philosophy teacher had a fascination with the sublime… that moment of seeing ‘bigness,’ shaking in one’s boots but still fascinatedly maintaining attention.
That’s what I need to finish the job. Sublime fear into perfection into Gone.
The fear helps me keep my attention on ‘Me.’
When I zonk out and retreat into bored distance, I’m too numb to tell what’s going on. I use entertainment to get away.
When the fear is in the forefront, something can move.
It needs perfection too, and I can certainly see the perfection in my investigations of the intense emotions. I have to walk this path to understand well enough what’s needed to finish. Actual, experiential knowing. Enough intellectualizing and philosophizing. Enough bragging to others.
What’s stopping me, anymore? Who’s stopping me?
Friends, family.
I worry that I’ll be too weird for them, that I’ll alienate them.
I have to keep going, though.
How can I get over that hump
Andrew’s observation of allowing anger to do its things has had massive repercussions for me. It’s opened up Pandora’s box at the best possible time. Emotions now have a vivacity that they haven’t had for me in years. Maybe since before I picked up spirituality in 2017. On top of that I wasn’t comfortable with anger ever since being a young child. I suspect having a younger brother at close proximity led to it being blocked. My parents didn’t like me having anger around him. And that explains why even in elementary school I already felt constricted. I couldn’t fully operate. Wow.
Maybe the anger can get me past ‘friends, family’ as an objection.
They want me in a particular spot, and it’s in the way of freedom. For me but also for them. For everyone.
Everyone just maintaining the status quo, the comfortably numb. Too afraid to really push things.
What is possible is so far beyond that.
12|10|21
What’s next?
Living life.
–
Installing an electrical switch in my house and I have a ton of tension around ‘doing it right’ / not breaking anything. I’ve been putting off the task for a long time too, out of fear. There’s something in me that sees it as ‘not fun,’ again because of the fear.
I’m definitely attaching to a particular outcome, “the switch being installed successfully, working correctly, not taking a long time or costing a lot of additional money.”
So then I’m worried about any of the opposite outcomes happening.
Screwing up the switch: that could happen and then I’d be back to step zero, having to start over. That’s ok. That’s where I am right now. It would just be wasted effort, which is not a big deal.
Not working correctly: same as above, it would just involve more work to correct or I could live with some funkiness.
Taking a long time: again, it’s just ‘wasted time.’ Maybe it takes me weeks (somehow) to install. That’s ok. There have been a ton of things on this project that took longer than expected and they still got done eventually.
Costing a lot of additional money: this is probably the biggest fear of the lot. I fear being in a situation where some big expense comes up that I can’t catch up to and then I’m totally stalled. Part of this fear is attached to having to go work more, which is attached to fears of being at a job in general, and fears of ‘missing out’ on my ‘free time,’ which I use to hang out with pretty girls (connected to sexual drive).
Pretty much whenever I take on some new project there’s expense or risk of expense coming up. That is unavoidable and is just a question of not taking on more than I can handle at that time. For example, right now I can’t get into ocean yachting because there is no way I could afford a $20,000 sailing vessel. It’s just not happening.
Having to work more is something I’m paying attention to, my whole life is pretty tight right now in terms of money but it’s been working. I do fear something big happening and making things untenable but now that I’m thinking about it more directly there’s not much fear there. What is ‘untenable?’ I think the only reason to have a problem with that is fear.
Let’s say something really big happens and my whole life situation blows up, in some ways that might be easier because maybe I’m back to step 1 as a human, which really means a whole lot simpler life. That could even be a breath of fresh air.
So then I’m just in this situation of working as much as I want, making the amount of money related to that (and my specific job situation), and doing tasks / screwing up tasks at the pace that is functional for that. It’s changing all the time as I change job situations, social arrangements, and take on more or less projects / screw up more or less projects. It’s always adjusting.
In other words if I completely screw up this project, costs balloon, and it takes way longer than I think, that’s just part of the situation. There’s no problem in that, it’s actually what’s happening all the time anyway.
The only thing different is I don’t get it done / tackle ‘the next thing’ as quickly, but that is in the future so it only exists in my imagination.
I’ve already constructed a whole logjam of overlapping plans going forward that in my imagination cascade together, creating tension because ‘I’ have to achieve the ends. If I don’t achieve my plan, I’m afraid because I think that ‘my’ plan won’t come together and that it’ll be a disaster.
Contrast this with Richard’s description of doing what’s sensible in each moment, each moment again.
It’s radically different.
It is indeed always now.
The plans aren’t working very well because I haven’t done a lot of these things before (like, install an electrical switch for HVAC), and so I have no idea how long it will take me or if I’ll be able to do it correctly or if there will be some unexpected cost. I try and imagine every scenario, predict which one is most likely. That makes sense just in terms of considered action, but it’s also producing stress/tension/suffering.
I’m doing all this predicting to head off ‘bad outcomes’ and keep this body safe, but does it make a difference?
I can see the tension that’s being created by operating this way.
Part of why I even started the job today was because I finally relaxed enough to ‘dive in’ and see what happened.
I can see how deep all this goes because it’s connected to all those other schemes that ‘I’ keep going. It’s everything ‘I’m’ doing to maintain everything that ‘I’ like.
I’m like a dragon hovering over a pile of gold & trying to figure out how to get more.
It’s funny, I definitely got a whiff of fresh air when I considered ‘losing it all.’
Flying free.
–
Becoming free means losing ‘all my great designs.’
Geoffrey: ‘I’ was willing to lose everything, but I have lost nothing, only my chains.
Success and failure are socially coded… ‘I’ want to show off my desirability, my capability, my attractiveness, to potential mates. Attractiveness is interesting because it’s about triggering love & lust in the other. I’m trying to get their ‘being’ fired up, attached to me.
That’s pretty far from free operation.
It’s another one of my schemes that can go ‘right’ or ‘wrong,’ too, creating tension in me and then mimetically in them.
–
I’m confident about some tasks (‘I’ think I can accomplish ‘my’ plan) and insecure about some other tasks (‘I’ don’t think I can accomplish my plan). Obviously this is coded with emotion/import.
If something I’m confident in goes poorly, ‘I’ suffer, ‘I’ think things are going to get worse
If something I’m insecure in goes well, maybe ‘I’ get bigger, ‘I’ am now ‘good.’
You don’t have to worry about all that. When it’s done and during it’s doing, it will be now. And now is a pretty fascinating time to be alive. In fact, it’s the only time you’re actually alive, which is the fascinating part. Moreover, when you are doing it it’ll be fun. And fun is a good thing to be having.
@henryyyyyyyyyy You have had PCEs right?
The question isn’t whether or not this or that thing is bothering you, but whether or not you want to live the PCE full time.
Hopefully i live long enough to challenge myself with the same question.
Is it now? Yes. Am I having fun? Not as much as I could be. The reminder is useful though.
Yes, I have. The memory is sometimes stronger than at other times, though.
A useful question… I do want to live the PCE full-time, at least I can see that in ‘big picture.’ I can see that it gets more subtle the closer I get to whatever I’m experiencing right now. There’s this or that objection. That makes the question even more useful.
What do you experience when you challenge yourself with that question? Why not now?
So you’re saying that you can simultaneously experience yourself as being alive at this moment and yet feel bad. That’s an issue. I’ve never realized the time is now yet felt bad.
@JonnyPitt I wouldn’t say bad exactly. But not perfect. There’s some obstacle.
I agree about it being an issue! ‘I’ have various social ‘problems’ still.
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You can simulateously experience yourself to be alive here at this place in the vastness of space and now at this time in eternity yet feel less than perfect due to social problems. I’m wondering how do those social problems compare to the experience of living in a space that has no center and a time that had no beginning and will have no end?
It’s always now, so obviously ‘I’ am saying I’m willing to ‘always’ be not-perfect, since I’m not-perfect right now.
That’s a bit funny.
‘I’ am trying to ‘set things up’ for ‘later’ by worrying about this or that, which means dropping happiness now.
‘I’ am unwilling to accept that maybe I’ll be alone in the future, or that maybe someone will be unhappy with me.
It’s useful to remember that I can guarantee neither companionship nor the geniality of others
So I can stop trying to ‘arrange it’
And thus let this moment be perfect
I had this realization last night:
I’m not obsessed with emotions. I’m obsessed with being alive, with life itself, with this universe itself, with whatever is happening in this moment. And, as a human being, often what is happening in front of me (whether it is in ‘me’ or in some human that I’m interacting with), is emotion. Which means, my attention/interest/fascination is seeing emotion in that moment. It is not ‘pointed,’ it is unidirectional.
But, there are many emotions happening on the earth, right now.
edit
From a reply I crossed out and pasted to this one for chronology sake. Since Henry quotes it later in the thread, I want to keep most of the original intact…Wow. What timing. I just read your response to Andrew. You quoted me using the phrase HAEITMOBA. And here I get to that in the last paragraph of this reply. Before I even read your reply to my quote, I was intentionally using that acronym instead of talking about experiencing how it is always now. I think the latter is clumsier and the former is familiar with people. So best to use that one.
That does seem logical to me 
Which would be a downer if it is logical, because, I’m a big advocate of logic. Fortunately, I think you got it wrong about being not-perfect. 
How can someone study something that is pure, experience something pure and yet not feel perfect? I don’t think it’s possible.
You can experience a fact so pure it makes you feel perfect. You can do this at any time by asking yourself HAIETMOBA. It can become second nature. So much so that anytime you find yourself painfully invested in the time clock of the marketplace or the social calendar of your peers HAIETMOBA is automatically asked.
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I think you may be trying to use logic still as well… you talk about how it is always now, and draw conclusions, but what is your experiencing moment-to-moment? What is your emotional baseline at this time in life? At this moment? Are you experiencing a PCE? Do you know how to remove yourself? If so, why haven’t you, yet?
I’m a big supporter of logic. My issue wasn’t the logic.
On a moment to moment basis, I experience the spikes and dips of any other feeling-being.
I think the baseline is probably good. Maybe great. Kind of artificial Inexact distinctions. Something above neutral *(*edit: and below excellent).
I feel good. Maybe great. probably great. But I’m doing something validating: answering positively to questions about myself. So I would expect most people to be feeling pretty good.*edit:*Since feelings of validation are good feelings as opposed to felicitous feelings - the most accurate response would be: I am having good feelings.
No
Do you know how to remove yourself?
Not exactly. Definitely not totally
As in self-immolation? I get to what feels like a threshold or precipice. But the altruism doesn’t finish the job.
Or as in a PCE? Same thing, I get pretty darn close but whenever I look to see if there’s still ‘me’ there, there always is.
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Is it fair to substitute ‘rational’ (based on or in accordance with reason or logic.) for ‘logic’ (reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.)? If so, that may be worth questioning: rationality & logic cannot reveal the actual because the processes of logic & rationality are dependent on the suppositions & beliefs of the one doing the logic/rationality.
Peter: The major problem with rational thinking is that it is more often than not applied to beliefs rather than facts. Thus in philosophy, religion, spirituality, theoretical science, ethics and the likes, vast and complex extenuated webs of thinking and argument have been based on initial premises that are usually some spurious form of Ancient Wisdom or demented, passionate imagination. Just because someone is rational does not necessary make the person sensible. Just because an argument or train of thought is rational does not necessarily make it sensible or factual in conclusion. As the definition points out, rational thinking and reasoning is a cerebral exercise – existing (only) in the mind, not real – and has nothing to do with what is actual and sensately experienced. Only an intelligence freed of ‘self’-ishness and the chemical influence of instinctual passions can operate with sagacity and sensibility.
(emphases mine)
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Wow. What timing. I just read your response to Andrew. You quoted me. And I was talking about HAIETMOBA. Before I even read that, I was writing about HAIETMOBA. Intentionally using that acronym instead of talking about experiencing how it is always now by asking yourself ‘what time is it’. Because the latter is clumsier and the former is more familiar with people.
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Thank you for your detailed reply, I understand your position better than I did before.
Yes and as you pointed out elsewhere (I can’t remember where), they are saying the same thing, it just depends on which aspect is being emphasized.
Any aspect of the question can be emphasized & useful things will be / can be uncovered, because it is always now / here, it is always perfect, etc etc