Henry: … I’d say typically that happiness & harmlessness has frequently stopped in the past because some hopeful fantasy of mine was disappointed. (…)
Yes, I can see that same retreating attitude coming up reflexively. And then the pursuit of fantasy-objects drains what affective energy I could conjure. So it’s about choosing pure intent / pursuit of freedom as the priority over those. I have believed in them. … Believing in romantic love, essentially.
Hi Henry,
Great, you pinpointed the dominating obstacle which stops you feeling good – now my next question is: what will it take for you to inquire into and dismantle “believing in romantic love”?
It is possible and doable, but it requires an ongoing affective attentiveness to how you feel whenever emotions pop up regarding the “acquisition” of women, and observing how much your feelings and behaviour are shaped by the various dreams and taboos you have swallowed hook, line and sinker when growing up, like so many others have. Don’t be afraid that you might feel a fool, as it is not your fault, and the discoveries and acknowledgement of what is happening are of great benefit to boot. Besides, being courageously honest with yourself will lead to sincerity, and sincerity can open the door to naiveté.
Vineeto: when you are naïve, awaken your dormant naiveté, women will no longer be objects of your “mission” or merely an “acquisition” to satisfy your desire, but fellow human beings, persons in their own right and interesting to interact with.
Henry: This is definitely my bleeding edge at this point. I’m looking at this now.
Perhaps this quote may give you even more encouragement to become fascinated and engaged when contemplating this topic –
Richard: To spell-it-out then: All through the ages, and throughout all cultures, one basic predicament exemplified the problem of human relationship and, thus, civilisation itself: man and woman had never been able to live together in peace and harmony – let alone with mutual gladness and delight – for the twenty-four hours of every day for the duration of their respective lives. (…)
Thus the basic premise was, and is, as simplistic as this: if man and woman cannot or could not live together with nary a bicker or a squabble – let alone a quarrel or a wrangle – then forget about street-marches, assorted ‘love-ins’ and other public-demonstrations calling for world peace because man-woman sexuality and intimacy is the genesis of family and thus the very core of civilisation itself.
Is it not high time ‘grown-ups’ began living-up to the title “mature adults” else the next generation, and those thereafter ever anon, also settle for a best which is less than the superlative best? (Richard, List D, Andrew, 28 Feb 2016).
What Richard wrote just two paragraphs before the above link may be relevant as well –
Richard: “I can say this much: the something else which those others you refer to do not need is a history of attention-training (as in meditation, passive awareness, mindfulness, self observation) … if anything they need to unlearn/ discard all of those tried and failed disciplines.
And unless/ until that much is crystal-clear there is no point in discussing just what the something else was, which the identity in residence circa the ‘eighties decade had in abundance, which those others you refer to may very well be in need of”. [emphases added]. (Richard, AF List, No. 68d, 30 Oct 2005).
Have you never wondered, for instance, why the near-innocent intimacy of naïveté does not feature in dictionary listings of various forms of intimacy/ ways of being intimate?
There is certainly a lot of further wonderful and fascinatingly revealing details to discover and explore once you leave “believing in romantic love” behind.
Vineeto: The situation you are referring to does not apply here – you seeing the loop does not end it, perhaps because the seeing is merely intellectual and not existential. However, with sincerity you can unlock naiveté (again), which will allow you to be more fully engaged and sincerely fascinated being alive, and like your fellow human beings, both male and female –
Henry: This point is well taken. It’s becoming clearer and clearer to me how I have consistently leaned on ‘my’ intellect to ‘understand’ things and overlooking the essential ingredients of naiveté & fascination. I had an experience of naiveté around 10 days ago and I could clearly see how the thoughts & conclusions I was experiencing were completely different, things were coming out of ‘left field’ which makes it apparent how my normal thinking process is trying to imaginatively construct meaning from within myself. I can see how that would ensure that I stay in place.
It’s funny looking at it right now because the advice is essentially “have you considered using the actualism method.” Without being hard on myself, it’s amazing & amusing to see how I’ve managed to dodge it to stay alive, always going back to ‘my’ habitual approach. Seems I’m moving in the right direction, though. Considerably more naiveté, purity, simplicity, excellence in the last month or so.
I really want to figure this out, get over the hump with this.
Ha, you have uncoded my message correctly 
. It’s great to hear you are “moving in the right direction”. Naiveté starts with liking yourself and others, but it doesn’t stop there. The steady moving away from intellectualization and theorizing in favour of directly experiencing how you are feeling at this moment of being alive, and removing any obstacle to feeling good right now, the only moment you can actually experience, will allow you to eventually be less guarded and more guileless. And once this new-found naiveté becomes familiar territory, nothing can stop you.
Besides, have you ever noticed that it is never not this moment?
Henry: And I also find it threatening and fearful to not be considered attractive by people that I’m attracted to. That was, and has been the consistent trigger: I interact with someone I’m attracted to, generally become nervous, and then perceive or interpret that I’m being rejected and begin to spiral. This week has been a music festival evenings in my town, and that setting has been and continues to be a minefield for me. All of this is based on your observation above that I am viewing these women as an object of desire rather than “fellow human beings, persons in their own right and interesting to interact with”.
Throughout the week have had some opportunities to observe this in operation, as well as to experiment with more naiveté and changing my goals away from “desiring sex” toward becoming fascinated with seeing people as they actually are. I’m still halfway in and halfway out, I can see that I could use more actually desiring the naiveté, desiring freedom, more ‘punch’ behind it, it all still feels rather tentative & ‘backseat.’
It seems that is inherent to my habitual approach: strong libidinal desire, coupled with tentativeness, confusion, anxiety. It’s a whirlpool.
If ‘my’ approach worked, there would be no need for confusion, so that’s a pretty big red flag by itself.
Well, enough thinking, time for more naiveté! Thank you for the considered response! (link)
My guess would be that the first thing to disable is a habit of being hard on yourself, and start being your best friend in your own thrilling adventure to acknowledge the intricacies of the various feelings, sometimes happening in rapid succession. Putting the feeling (which ‘you’ are) in a bind, may allow you to ‘jump out of the box’ and experience a whole new world. (See Richard’s detailed description about putting anger in a bind).
It’s not possible to command yourself to be naïve but you can give yourself permission, bit by bit, to increasingly slip out from under the control of your superintending agent (the ‘doer’).
Cheers Vineeto