There is a human desire for X but I don’t really want X
#2 and #4 you are just lying to yourself
#1 is the normal non-lying-to-yourself way .
#3 I think is more like how emotions are experienced in an EE. They lose their ‘possessive’ quality but I see it’s still ‘me’ – I see this even more clearly than usual – but there’s a sort of a ‘distance’ from it. Or maybe a lack of taking it seriously . . .
Right yeah either way it must be seen that I am indeed being that emotion. I guess the difference is that going the route of ‘I am sad’ I have now entered the arena where I might build a story of why I am sad, what I should be doing, how it’s because of this and that reason… essentially building a story.
Seeing ‘human sadness’ with attentiveness I still see that this feeling is ‘me’ but I cut this ‘storymaking’ short.
Do you still experience this, when you can go for long periods of time, stuck in not feeling good and being unwilling to do anything about it?
I certainly have long periods where I get stuck Infront of the computer mindlessly roaming the internet; watching YouTube and what not. I don’t feel bad, but I don’t feel good either and I don’t apply the method while doing it. I’m just stuck in this habitual loop of multimedia addiction.
This is what I’m currently working on, trying to break this and other pretty hardcoded habits through HAIETMOBA and of course: the ever increasing wanting/desire to actually apply the method.
Addiction is typically about avoidance, what are you doing / feeling the moments before you start using media addictively? There may be a trigger or theme to dig into there which is preventing feeling good
I had to observe myself over the weekend to be able to give a proper answer cos I wasn’t sure haha.
I would say I no longer go through prolonged periods where there is some form of feeling bad in place and I am unwilling to do anything about it.
There are however times where there is some form of feeling bad and I experience issues getting back to feeling good, the feeling bad persists/hangs on to some degree.
So for example, there is a certain level of anxiety that I tend to experience before doing my hen party jobs on a weekend (some kind of performance anxiety), it is nothing too problematic but there is certainly this anxious undertone which prevents enjoyment and appreciation.
I am aware of it as it is happening, I attempt to get back to feeling good, I attempt to explore it fully etc however it seems to be a very deeply ingrained affective response so often times all I am left with is experiencing it fully and sort of allowing it to run itself out. Then next time it happens I get another chance to chip away at it.
I was actually thinking about this sorta thing a lot over the weekend (the persistent feeling patterns), I will write a post later when I get a chance.
What I suspect is going on here is a form of avoidance. This is something that I did a ton of in the past, I think it relates to the fact that it is somewhat less painful to succumb to a bland/numb state than to become intimately familiar with your emotional landscape.
Obviously Actualism is about enjoying and appreciating however as you begin to apply attentiveness to your inner world you will begin to sharply experience things which you may have been avoiding for years. I think this is why you might be going for the numb/bland state instead.
Because if you were to apply attentiveness to what is happening you might notice that this blandness all of a sudden starts to become a concoction of various feeling tones, various flavours which are becoming sharper. To experience these things deeply can be a gold-mine for actually changing yourself but it can be daunting/painful to do this at times. To experience those feelings which you have been doing your best to shove into a corner for years.
I can relate to the deeply ingrained feelings - these would for example be a sense of social anxiety in my case. These feelings can almost be described as being at the essence of me and thus they seem so very real or ‘hard coded’ (no nipping anything in the bud here!) My further question to you would be:
Have you ever managed to ‘chip away’ at any other deeply ingrained identity stuff - finally to have it removed completely?
Yes I have! there is quite a few that have disappeared more or less completely. To be honest up until committing to actualism I was a bit of a mess, I was in a perpetual state of anxiety and stress to a point where I was forever exhausted, always suffering and even my body felt stiff, painful and in general I always felt extremely uncomfortable.
The main one that I wrote about here a few times was this body dysmorphia situation I was carrying for many years which left me continually in stress. This thing has pretty much disappeared now and at one point it consumed every bit of my being, I remember at its peak I used to think that if only I could eradicate this one thing my life would be complete.
There’s a bunch of others that were also very persistent and overwhelming and they have disappeared too, so I have no doubt that it is possible for you too.
The funny thing is that back then I actually used more or less the very approach I am describing now and then I somehow forgot about it! Maybe I got too comfortable haha, but I remember with this body dysmorphia situation one of the biggest changes came when I finally allowed myself to experience the feelings that I have been suppressing for so long, to live them fully without moving in any direction (psychically).
I’ll seize this question you asked @Kub933 to describe/explain some of the elements which prevented me from
or at least better daily/periodically which constituted part of my own “wall” (incidentally, a few days later @claudiu also referred to not wanting to enjoy and appreciate here: Claudiu's Journal - #82 by claudiu; maybe you will find it useful).
NOTE: My post grew so much that I noticed it was a good opportunity to turn it into one of the articles I had set out to write, taking advantage of my journal as a “draft notebook” that would allow for criticism/comments, successive modifications, etc.
Funnily enough, today I was so annoyed by this re-occuring feeling (anxiety) that was once again trying to impose itself upon how I am experience this moment of being alive (My annoyance was a part of the general feeling/frustration of not getting anywhere.). I nipped it in the bud thinking:
“This shitty crap feeling again!”
And the feeling immediately vanished without a trace. Apparently one can sometimes ‘nip things in the bud’ while being really annoyed about it.
EDIT: Now, that I think about it, it was quite a move, because I have never really been able to deny things related to my social anxiety (the feeling was about how others might percieve me.)
This entire single post was very helpful Andrew. This approach to feeling good “each moment again”, takes the pressure off of having to perfume or succeed in a marathon achievement kind of way. So I just wanted to make sure I understood what you said in the above quote correctly, so I have reworded it; did I understand this correctly?
It’s not “feeling good all the time”. This ( “all the time” ) would imply that there is this big continuous “time” and the goal is to fill it with feeling good. Like a marathon, but no way to know how far it goes.
It seemed significant that “each moment again” is different from “all the time”.
“Each moment again”, has the initialisation which may already be there, or can be re-initialised without any reference to the previous moment, or a future moment.
“All the time” is linguistically the same if one understands the rest of Richards writing, in that "time (this moment) has no duration. It’s however a tautology; there is no need to add “all” to something which can’t be subdivided and has no duration.
As if I could enjoy a part of a moment which has no duration, so must add “all” to specifically avoid missing a part of it.
The method and it’s success must be contained in the first few lines in the article: This moment of being alive. Richard writes:
“It does take some doing to start off with but, as success after success starts to multiply exponentially, it becomes progressively easier to enjoy and appreciate being here each moment again.”
Richard became virtually free in 2 months? Me, I can’t even get a glimpse at feeling good lol. What the fuck!?
I’ve said that I felt good, but I’m not sure this sensation of being ‘hungry for’ whatever that was happening, during an hour at work, was feeling good? It felt nice, but was it feeling good? I have no clue.
I’m pretty content during the days, living in a sort of limbo, where I feel neutral most of the time mixed with bad feelings. I laugh alot… but mostly due to something being experienced as funny - like how fucked up I am not getting anywhere?
Good feelings seems almost completely lacking. I can’t experience beauty, I can’t experience gratitude, I don’t experience empathy, compassion, tenderness and loving feelings etc.
Neutrality mixed with bad feelings is what I got. I seem to have had some success minimizing the bad feelings though, since my mood is experienced as a alot more stable. It’s like I’m reducing my sense of ‘I-ness’ and all that which defines and triggers me, but happiness (feeling it) and the experience of pure intent isn’t pouring in - only more nothingness, blankness, indifference etc.
I’m at loss of what to do really. If I try to whip myself to feel good and to enjoy and appreciate I won’t succeed and have had no success in this. If I don’t try and just let myself sit on a chair and completely let go of the controls - I’m afraid that I’ll get zoned out, dissociated and get lost in a sort of fog of nothingness. But what else is there to do?
Perhaps I’ve got major bad feeling blockers? Perhaps my poorly developed attentivness hasn’t even begun to see what’s really going on each moment again? I mean, I experience anxieties of all kinds quite alot. Perhaps it’s them? Perhaps I’m not even neutral at all? Perhaps I’m anxious all the time and this anxiousness is blocking me? Oh fuck the confusion.
Still one would think that there should be room/space for a felicitious feeling to pop up now and then. This unmistakable sense of a good feeling.
I’ve always thought that if I only could get a good sense of how the method works I could ride that wave until the end. But I can’t even get a glimpse of feeling good, so the fantasy of riding any waves remains.
Comparing yourself to anyone, let alone Richard, is going to be futile. Which we all know, but do it anyway!
It’s not some magic ingredient, rather a space where one’s thinking can make better choices.
If you find yourself thinking clearer, then that’s a good indication.
@Kiman on the phone last night made an excellent point about everything being on a spectrum. Meaning, there is no division between "feeling flat, feeling ok, feeling well, feeling good, very good, great, excellent, perfect (EE), *except for the last one; immaculate (PCE). Even then, there are many reports where the PCE is not a “hard” state, and it fades, and comes back etc.
So, I am suggesting that having some particular “feeling good” on a pedestal , like a magic bullet, isn’t useful.
Having a blameless honesty about everything (like you are posting here), is useful.
The method and the end, according to Richard are the same thing. So , one doesn’t lead to the other (like some piggy bank of feeling good with get you there), rather one is a microcosm of the other. The dedication to enjoying life as a feeling being, carries on as a lived actuality. Geoffrey was saying something along these lines; Feeling good, enjoyment always made sense to ‘him’, now it’s the only thing that makes sense.
I suppose that Richard is making this point about the actualism method; it is what one does in the “meantime”. Meaning, it’s not a “retirement fund” which will mature into actual freedom.
One could, in theory, ‘self’ immolate right now.
Indeed, naivete is as much about eliminating “grown up” objections which are creating these fantasies, as facilitating the method itself.
It’s also useful to me at least to have realised, naivete is not synonymous with feeling good. One can have naivete and feel bad. It’s a description of a state of mind to me. One which can, like a 4 year old ask “why not?” and see the objections.
It’s good you’re taking a sincere stock of the situation…that place of thinking - “I’m feeling neutral but maybe its some everpresent anxiousness aka feeling bad that I don’t recognize or lack the sincerity to look in the eye” - is very familiar to me
This may seem like the oddest feeling good advice lol…Richard says that feeling good is a general sense of well being and as obnoxious it may sound, but I find that quality of general sense of wellbeing most apparent in the day after going through a good crap…my mood right before is that is generally of feeling bad and right after, there is ease n better mood
But then I have a bit of an IBS, so maybe it’s a unique situation to me
There is something that Peter writes about in the Actualist guide (quote at the bottom) and also what Richard writes about ‘durance-ville’. I have definitely had those exact experiences too, of going through what seems like ‘no mans land’, where it seems all I have ever known is grim reality.
I really don’t know what the ‘correct’ path is in terms of applying the method and probably there isn’t such a thing. Maybe there is some people that somehow can just get on with enjoying and appreciating from the get-go, for me it didn’t quite go like that.
What I personally found was that when I dared to peel back those things which were somewhat keeping ‘my’ reality intact (the habitual actions, the good feelings, the dearly held beliefs etc), once I started prodding around, shifting things and experiencing things deeply I would go through various ‘storms of the psyche’ or these long stretches of bleak reality, sometimes for weeks/months.
This is why I am always quick to come out and write about this stuff because I have often wondered (whilst in the middle of one of them shit storms ), will this ever end? So far every single time it has ended, it is like eventually the thing cannot sustain itself and something shifts, often this is when I will find new levels of clarity and ease and often this is also when I will end up having lots of EEs and PCEs happening.
I would say the key things when in those periods :
Diligence, persistence, bloody-mindedness
Willingness to fully feel and experience
A memory of perfection giving confidence that there is a place beyond this grim reality, that it is possible to live it.
It is possible to pass through periods of stark reality where nothing has any meaning and all is experienced as grey and dull. Boredom, meaninglessness, pointlessness and similar feelings are often encountered and this is where a continual memory of the pure consciousness experience is vital, for that becomes one’s single pointed goal in life while crossing what can be experienced and felt to be a desert completely devoid of usual meaning and familiar emotional experiences. Traditional and accustomed relationships and ways of thinking and feeling are all broken apart and there seems to be no way of putting anything back together again. One realizes that the path is essentially a demolition job – the very aim is to demolish, piece by piece, ‘who’ you have been taught to be and ‘who’ blind nature has programmed you to be.
Oh and also writing notes I think can help although as I wrote about recently for me it became a crutch.
But I found that when in those very grim periods, if I could just sit down, relax, feel and write notes whilst exploring this thing in myself, all of its corners and winding turns that it would really help.
The notes would keep me focused on the task, and they become like an ice-breaker, a slightly more comfortable way to begin exploring these intense parts of myself.
@John , I remember you writing that you didn’t trust yourself to investigate beliefs etc et al.
Time for something new heh?
It’s one thing to push through the “valley of the shadow of death”, it’s another to spot the bypass highway which was built around it.
I have gone the hard way. As it sounds you have. Which is perfectly understandable.
There is however, more than one “hard way”.
Apparently, there may be even an easy way.
Let’s make a wager; your ‘hard way’ vs my ‘hard way.’
Shortcuts, cheating, deserting the sinking ship, are all on the table. Betraying the “hard way” is allowed. Slinking away into the “easy way” completely legit.
I think the problem lies in ‘him’ which is questioning my own experience and comparing it to others. I mean, right now, I find it quite fun to be attentive to feelings and this moment of being alive.
The thing is this, I was experiencing anxiety this night while trying to sleep; ‘bouts’ of anxiety rising to the surface. These feelings came with no clue whatsoever to what might have been behind my experience. No thoughts/images, nothing that was really happening, but me laying on the pillow waiting to sleep. How am I to investigate anything which gives me no clues? The only thing I could do was to immerse myself in the experience and later to see it fade away and to be gone - until it again was upon me a few minutes later.
Anyways,
I feel back on track after writing my post, but I bet that this isn’t the last time that my cheerful spirit is to be caught up in the questioning of my progress and whereabouts. What @Kub933 calls ‘no mans land’ doesn’t have to be bad, as I said: it’s still interesting and quite fun to pay attention to this moment of being alive. Perhaps it’s the very questioning of one’s experience that causes all sorts of discomfort?
I always like you guys replies. Even if I don’t respond or aknowledge what you write, I read it and often go back days/weeks later and read it again, to see if there’s something to extract.
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