Connecting to altruism/caring

[henryyyyyyyyyy]

Continuing the discussion from Journal de Henry:

Journal de Henry

What is double-removal? I looked it up but didn’t get any relevant results After crashing into brick walls several times, I settled on ‘It is best not to delve into altruism’. Because I’d then unconsciously introduce that into my day-to-day living: If I don’t help somebody because I have an important work to do, “me” won’t take kindly to it because it desires freedom and altruism seems to be a necessity for it. A part of the subliminal mind goes, “If I am not even able to let go …

Journal de Henry

I coined it myself but on the AFT site it’s referred to via how love is ‘palliative’ (aka in response to negative emotions aka covering negative emotions aka 2-layers). So the negative is still there, the love comes on top to protect ‘me’ (basically on the animal level this is to keep me from laying down and dying of depression). What I was able to observe directly was that the negative was always there, sometimes growing sometimes weakening. And then the loving feelings would come in and war…

[Kiman]

Altruism(self-immolation) is insidious because we as humans tend to think linearly, like how we see “progressing towards”, “achieving mastery over” etc. It applies to most(all?) things we do in life, so our default thinking is set to it. All our arithmetic is linear: addition, subtraction, multiplication(additions repeated over linearly) and division(subtractions repeated over linearly).
So when at the end we must sacrifice ourselves for every body, but we now don’t see selflessness in our activities, that would create a conflict because that amounts to not progressing. When this is compounded by our empathy or nurturing tendency, the conflict strengthens alot.
I doubt the desire for peace on earth(I’m referring to only the ‘peace for every body else’ aspect. Not the peace that this body will experience once “I” and “me” are eradicated) should be the most predominant motivation. Richard suggested to Alan that he watch news airing the violence and destruction occurring all around the world in order to reinvigorate his desire for peace on earth and therefore (as a prerequisite)his becoming actually free. He suggested similarly to others.

[henryyyyyyyyyy]

I think that linearity is an outcome of the binary yes-no thinking driving the ‘being’

So we only like things when they seem to be ‘getting us what we want’ (YES/LOVE).

@Kiman

So when at the end we must sacrifice ourselves for every body, but we now don’t see selflessness in our activities, that would create a conflict because that amounts to not progressing.

The being asks itself, "is this action selfless? YES/NO

It can be an observable YES when I see that I am placing my self-ish demands on others much less, when I see that my peaceful-ness has increased markedly, when I see that my interactions with others have taken an ease that ‘I’ could never have anticipated. I have observed this and thus am able to continue that ‘YES.’

It is not linear in the sense that sometimes I fall back into old patterns… I notice that I am less peaceful this week than I was last week… I don’t have any problem with that type of situation because on the path of actualism, such events are expected. I take it as a signal that there is an obstacle, I find the obstacle, and I remove it. Actualism continues its ‘YES’ category within myself, and when with the removal of my obstacle my peace increases, then my “Am I peaceful/becoming more peaceful?” YES returns as well.

@Kiman

I doubt the desire for peace on earth(I’m referring to only the ‘peace for every body else’ aspect.

The peace comes because ‘I’ am no longer placing demands on them, which means I’m no longer contributing to the conflict.

The peacefulness that ‘I’ become is energetically matched by others. This is observable, and results in observable peacefulness.

@Kiman

I doubt the desire for peace on earth (snip) should be the most predominant motivation.

I’m ok with this, as my motivation up to this point has largely been selfish (I want to be happy / have a good life), but I’m beginning to see the limits of this self-centered approach and can see that for me to get any further, my view has to include everyone. Hence ‘connecting to altruism/caring.’

I agree about watching the news. Around a year ago I read the backlog of reddit’s ‘historyporn’ subreddit (make sure to sort by, ‘all time’) and generated a ton of motivation due to that nurturing instinct. ‘I’ couldn’t stand it, and wanted to do something about it.

Actualism gives me an excellent use of that motivation.

[Elgin]

@henryyyyyyyyyy

I’m ok with this, as my motivation up to this point has largely been selfish (I want to be happy / have a good life), but I’m beginning to see the limits of this self-centered approach and can see that for me to get any further, my view has to include everyone. Hence ‘connecting to altruism/caring.’

Hi everybody. This is my first post.

The above statement is exactly the situation I’m in at the moment. A few months ago I encountered a situation where I was feeling I got very, very close to self-immolation. In this moment I could see that I couldn’t do it myself. I was in a kind of cul-de-sac. I could also see that something “greater”, something outside of me’ had to do the job. Since this event I’m in a kind of no-man’s land and don’t know how to proceed.
I didn’t have a PCE since then, but I’m largely feeling good.

I do understand that altruism is necessary, but since practicing actualism my feelings of compassion also took a nose dive. I obviously do care for people, but not on the same level as before. I see the importance for peace on earth and the part I play in it, but I still feel I can’t contribute much to the overall mess of the human condition.

Back in the days when I was a Krishnamurti reader my “compassion levels” were “sky-high”. It seems that watching news to “consume” human suffering is not a sensible way for me either. It seems artificial to me (not sincere.)

I would be greatful for any hints, links etc.
I’ve been enjoying this site and all of your contribution to it. Thank you and best regards.

[Miguel]

Welcome, Elgin! Glad you wrote.

[henryyyyyyyyyy]

You can ask yourself, who are the people in my life? Do I have any blocks to intimacy with them?

Any blocks that exist prevent us from seeing them completely

Seeing someone completely, there is automatically caring. In fact in this state instincts for love & compassion can & will kick in very quickly & easily.

This may be a personal block (I don’t like something my partner did 2 months ago) or it may be a broader humanity-wide block (I don’t feel comfortable around people, I don’t feel safe talking to people).

[claudiu]

Welcome Elgin!

@Elgin

I do understand that altruism is necessary, but since practicing actualism my feelings of compassion also took a nose dive. I obviously do care for people, but not on the same level as before.

So one possible avenue here… it seems you’re equating compassion with caring.

But as you may be seeing, feeling compassion is not the same as caring about people.

The best way to see this is to have a PCE around people, and interact with them. Observe the total absence of self-centric feelings such as compassion … and how the actual caring intrinsic to actual intimacy is far superior !!

Barring that you could have a PCE on your own and maybe consider the people in your life, or events in the news, while having that experience.

This will show you that actualism and actual freedom is about caring more, not less… and that compassion is not only ultimately redundant but actually works against it!!

[Elgin]

@henryyyyyyyyyy

Any blocks that exist prevent us from seeing them completely

Seeing someone completely, there is automatically caring. In fact in this state instincts for love & compassion can & will kick in very quickly & easily.

I do feel love for people close to me, but compassion (pity) I don’t. Maybe I’m just used to block it away. I do remember an event when I went deep into compassion that culminated into a freakish showcase of universal sorrow. It was deeply terrifying at that time. I needed weeks, maybe months to recover from that. This may be the crux. I will look into it. Thanks.

@claudiu

The best way to see this is to have a PCE around people, and interact with them. Observe the total absence of self-centric feelings such as compassion … and how the actual caring intrinsic to actual intimacy is far superior !!

I never had a PCE around people when I think about it. So an actual intimacy with people is not on my list so far. PCE for me were mostly triggered in a natural environment (nature experiance) and even at work (I was the doing of what is happening). Something to contemplate over. I appreciate your advise.

[edzd]

@Elgin

I do understand that altruism is necessary, but since practicing actualism my feelings of compassion also took a nose dive.

I can relate to this @Elgin. I would describe myself as this: an incredibly caring person that is cold. That could summarize the majority of how “I” was all my life. And it could still be used to describe how I still am, though I may notice a change. (Front row seat and all)

I would describe a turning point for me, and what seems to be helping me make progress, is attempting to become that very caring. I recognized that since I’m a feeling being, doing so may lead me into feeling-being caring territory. But an Actualist can suss out the difference and get back on course. The second part to that strategy was to use naivete to be that necessary guide in the process of sussing it out.

Except that I didn’t really know what naivete was. So I decided to become that naivete and in attempting to do so I intuitive feel out what that means. I would literally describe this as a spiritual process in some ways. It is as if you attempt to be the embodiment of naivete. Like naivete is your god instead of love. And it requires integrity because you have to sincerely feel it and not fake it.

But back to the point, the way I see it, I can let that feeling drive my actions. And in such a way, so long as I’m feeling naive, whatever caring I end up expressing will at least be aligned in some way with the actual world. Whether this is a good strategy for someone further along the path, I don’t know, but for me it has been rewarding and fun to play around with (it can be boring and frustrating to keep knocking your head against the E&A wall).

I think what really helped me to break through my barrier was to recognize that all my life I had never really expressed that caring emotion too well. So perhaps I should explore that emotion at least in an attempt to be a more outwardly caring person and see what that’s like. Now I’ve turned it into some fun game.

I consider actual caring to be perhaps the most important and nuanced area to traverse in the path to an Actual Freedom, for the obvious reasons that it seems like as people approach immolation, they connect with the idea that this is not just for them, but for everybody, in a way that they hadn’t before.

[Elgin]

Thank you @edzd for your very insightful post. I will get back to it once I have more time to reply thoughtfully.

[Elgin]

@edzd

I consider actual caring to be perhaps the most important and nuanced area to traverse in the path to an Actual Freedom, for the obvious reasons that it seems like as people approach immolation, they connect with the idea that this is not just for them, but for everybody, in a way that they hadn’t before.

Indeed, this may be the thing I’m looking for. I reflected on compassion for the last few days. I observed my day to day actions in regards to this specific feeling. What I found out was interesting. I do experiance compassion but only the initial stage, then I nip it in the bud. I was inquiring to see if I was suppressing or repressing it. But my sincere answer was: No, there is just nothing worthwhile to find. I had previously sussed out most of the area around love, compassion and suffering (and it was hideous!)

But reading your post today I did notice something. There is a quality within compassion I was somehow overlooking. I think Vineeto has formerly spoken about it, but forgot about it. It seems that, like fear>thrill, compassion has also a different quality to it which seems to be empathy/sympathy. I get the impression that it’s nearer to actual caring then compassion. It feels more friendly, benevolent, agreeable to me. It is not simple pity, but more straightforward. It tastes like benevolence (wishing well) for my fellow human beeings. I will continue with this inquiry and see where it leads me.

[FrankN]

@edzd

Except that I didn’t really know what naivete was. So I decided to become that naivete and in attempting to do so I intuitive feel out what that means. I would literally describe this as a spiritual process in some ways. It is as if you attempt to be the embodiment of naivete. Like naivete is your god instead of love. And it requires integrity because you have to sincerely feel it and not fake it.

But back to the point, the way I see it, I can let that feeling drive my actions. And in such a way, so long as I’m feeling naive, whatever caring I end up expressing will at least be aligned in some way with the actual world. Whether this is a good strategy for someone further along the path, I don’t know, but for me it has been rewarding and fun to play around with (it can be boring and frustrating to keep knocking your head against the E&A wall).

Anyone, can this thing work this way ?
“I decided to become that naivete and in attempting to do so I intuitive feel out what that means. I would literally describe this as a spiritual process in some ways. It is as if you attempt to be the embodiment of naivete. Like naivete is your god instead of love. And it requires integrity because you have to sincerely feel it and not fake it.”

[edzd]

I know the word spiritual may be a ‘bad’ word here. And to be clear - I don’t mean spiritual as if there’s actually a spirit that exists.

I mean it in the sense that - - if we’re getting rid of ego and soul, why not turn your ego/soul into naivete itself in the mean time? Like @FrankN FrankN, I wouldn’t mind hearing from others. But I wanted to put this caveat up so as not to stray into a discussion whether this is truly spiritual or not.

[Elgin]

@Elgin

I will continue with this inquiry and see where it leads me.

Forget it. Sympathy/Empathy is still firmly rooted in compassion/pity/suffering. I saw this very clearly today. Then it leads back to love etc. if one is not attentive enough. This cannot be it.

So what was I really experiancing? I’m still looking into it. Maybe I’ll write a journal about this. Maybe it’s just giving the people around me more attention, more care (take notice of them) etc. But I think I’m onto something. A more benevolent shift/approach to people around me is pretty evident. Beeing on this path never stops to amaze me