RICHARD: Update: In regards to the “Magical Mystery Tour” thread, Richard did *not * say “no one on the forum seemed to be practicing the actualism method” (or anything of the ilk) – obviously they are and this alone is immensely pleasing – as what he *did * say was ‘Nobody has taken-up the challenge to enjoy and appreciate being alive, each moment again come-what-may, for the remainder of their life’. Global Warming
In any case bub appears to have struck a nerve with some here and it’s certainly worthwhile to ponder upon what all that may entail. Never was there an actualist successful without getting into some ‘spicy’ stuff. Not for the faint of heart & weak of knee & all that.
I’ve been dismissive towards you too, and not giving you straight forward answers. I’ve been cherry picking the most absolute bollocks I see you spout and pointing it out.
Straight answers. Authenticity. Integrity. I gotta walk the walk, before asking anyone else.
But if you do reply, then there’s a not so trick question for you at the end. Based on how you answer, I’ll make a choice whether to engage with you or not. Sounds like I’m being an uppity twat, but please wait till the end for the non trick test question.
However, if you have insight into the human condition you know there is not a little me inside my head that needs to be punished, it is the stupidity of blind nature that has let all of the shitty behaviours manifest, including my failures and shitty choices.
You know, I used to be really hard on myself for a ton of shit I did and mostly didn’t do but upon reflection I realise old bub made all the right right and right wrong choices and fair play to him.
I can’t even think of a single incident or choice in my past that didn’t turn out spectacularly well.
I now think, there’s no bub, never was, there’s just oneness flowing and the shitty parts, and feelings, are also importing to move the story forward. Just like a novel protagonists choices must be believable. (non AF non dual spiel if you can excuse me doing so).
So, if I have a blindpsot and am being malicious I guess it won’t be too much of a squeeze to ask you to forgive me. I am very much a work in progress.
Hah, fuck you Jack. It’s not going to be that easy.
That’s so like Srinath’s shitty way out of fuck ups. Hey, sorry to have offended you that’s not my intention.
Fuck the apology, who gives a shit. We want insight.
Where were you offensive, or rude - you clock that right, that’s ten times better than a throw and go apology or forgiveness neither of us really gives a shit about.
Lol, I thought I was being pretty clear,
No you fucken weren’t clear. In the words of the great Samuel L Jackson - ENGLISH MOTHERFUCKER! DO YOU SPEAK IT?! (now I’m being cheeky)
Is this even remotely gramatically correct?
How the fuck does the above gobbledygook relate to the below example? Dont answer. its’ a rhetorical question.
I was explaining how the interaction has made me feel and what I noticed arise in me. Like that need to never question or challenge anybody, 10 years ago I wouldn’t even interacted with you at all, for fear or risk of some conflict or disagreement. There wouldn’t even be a conversation so we wouldn’t know what we even agree or disagree on. You’d probably like me more back then lol.
I don’t really see it that big deal when a fellow human feels bad a little over some minor disagreement. There are worse things and states possible lol.
Of course you dont care. You say no harmful intentions, downplay the rudeness as a charming cheekiness, ask for forgiveness without having the slightest clue where you might have gone off piste.
Dude, whether I significantly hurt you, or mildly offend you, I’d still like to reflect and change for the future. Because most people do. But you clearly aren’t most people. Now, this is cheekiness. Yours was downright rudeness and stepped up gears on that too.
I don’t value human feelings anyway, which automatically makes me a dick I know.
ahh, again, of course you don’t care. But now you are being sincere, and honest and there’s no way I can dismiss you or say bollocks. The tinest smattering of insight. Hallelujah.
It sucks if I have done something that hurts you emotionally
Dude, you’re like one of those Alleluia motherfuckers (which is what my friend calls the jesus saved my life evangelists). How in the world can you cause me the remotest bit of suffering.
This thread (exhausting though it is to communicate with closed minded people who are ostensibly incapable of listening) has been the highlight of my day.
I might not have learnt jack, but wow, what a wonderful tangled web of emotions. Frustration, annoyance, disbelief, bewilderment, amusement, fun, and even affection (which I’ll address again).
But I also don’t blame you or somebody else if they make me feel bad. I use my insight to take ownership of my own emotional responses.
Most ‘normal’ people (we’ve clearly established you’re an outlier, you dont care if you mildly offend people, dont value human feelings, and really dont give enough of a shit.
The core issue if I may cut to the chase is listening, and hearing. Look how easily Kubs got me. Solid, decent, authentic guy.
Not your ignoramus ostrich head in sand ass high up in the air bollix.
Some people feel bad if you tell them a fact that contradicts their belief, am I bad guy for that. Must I spend the rest of my existence apologising and seeking remorse for whoever I upset or hurt whether intentional or not?
Look at the extreme levels of obfuscation here. I find it mind blowing how someone can be so deliberately obtuse?
Dude, what fucken fact? Which belief of mine did you shit on (I dont remember it)? You had one PCE and are nowhere near HAIETMOBA or happy and harmless and acting like a know it all. Not as bad as Claudiu, who actually had the gall to say he should be the closest one on the forum to getting to AF/BF.
But obfuscation point to be addressed - again, the complete inability to get the fucken point, misinterpret it, and fucken run along to la la land.
Who the fuck is asking you to spend the rest of your existence apologising? Even here, i said I couldn’t give less of a shit about an apology.
It’s insight and listening. Getting the fucken point. Getting me to go, fuck man, son of bub, you really got me. I’m powerless in front of anyone who truly understands me, as we all are methinks.
Not this la la land runaround - apologising and showing remorse forever? Where the fuck did you pick this up from?
It’s about knowing and realising when you hurt someone and why they felt hurt. Like I said, that’s ten times better than an apology.
I can relate to that myself too in life, in my relations with people but you still don’t answer straight forward questions like what you believe, what you have experienced, etc, so it is kind of nebulous as to what you think or feel on a lot of points and so its hard to really explore anything.
Listen dude, Kubs got me. He read the same thing as you.
So really you can’t make this about me anymore, we’re gradually getting to the crux of the matter - it’s your unwillingness to listen, hide behind words (cheeky vs rude), run along to la la land, make shit up as you go along (like you’ve repeatedly said you’ve projected), obfuscation, obtuseness.
all just one thing, and unwillingness to listen, make shit up and run along with it.
Come on man, that is the human condition of course we know the forum and us can be a shitshow we are not that naive and your not the first or last to realise this.
But again, you dismiss it. It’s not about it being a shit show, but understanding in what way it is a shitshow. Insight.
Not about apologising, but about what the heck you’re actually being a dick about.
I don’t really view life in terms of right or wrong. Seems pretty over simplisitic to me. You mean right or wrong in some moral sense?
English motherfucker, DO. YOU. SPEAK. IT. (hah, couldn’t resist going there again).
I mean right as in being in the right. As simple as it gets.
Again, this complete inability to get the point. It’s simple. I’m enjoying being in the right because I know you’re in the wrong.
The alleluia motherfucker thinks he’s found salvation, we all know he’s following one of the most murderous, sin filled religions the world has ever seen.
I’m likening you to the alleluia motherfucker.
I never really care about such things as whether AF is a welcoming space.
I know right, why be nice, welcoming, polite, kind, happy and patient, and all those things.
Okay, exhausted. Won’t
My default tends to be people are cunts until they prove to me otherwise, a typically negative distrustful view of people but I guess it protected me in life from a lot of narcissists or dickheads.
Now you’re projecting because that’s exactly how you come across. Like a narcissist, dickhead (youre too much of a dimwit (now I’ve crossed over into rudeness) to be a cunt) - who cares about right or wrong. I wont tell you about who cares, but I’ll definitely tell you who doesnt - People who score for psychopathy on the gold standard Hare psychopathy checklist.
If you don’t like me then have the balls to say it, dont hide behind some cultist excuse.
Dude, like I said, I’m only replying to you because I think there’s a nugget of a decent guy inside.
I take it back.
I actually liked you (even had a tiny bit of affection) till I started replying to this and when I hear repeatedly I dont care, I dont care, and making shit up, and obfuscation, I think you know what, this guy actually is a narcissist and dickhead.
Fair play, you’ve developed a narcissitic defense for your low self esteem and your frustration with the world and yourself makes you come across as a dickhead.
It is disingenous of you to assume my life realisations are somehow dependent on being a member of some random forum.
See, another fucken jolly to la la land. Where the fuck did you get this random idea from.
See what a mess and bag of contradictions it can be to be a human being.
You’re a fucken mess bro.
My trick question to see if I will engage with you was ‘what does space for my journey mean’ and I was actually going to give you the actual answer and then see if you would get the answer I already gave you. Can you see how ludicrous I believe conversing with you has been.
But alas, in the middle of my reply to you, like I said, I started to think you’re another Claudiu that I just need to ignore. I’m not going to get the slightest bit of value from you.
So if you do reply, I’ll be ignoring you from now on.
I’ve enjoyed today’s posts, mainly because it was high drama. And again, I’m so sure I’m in the right and enjoying rubbing it in.
Zero suffering and harm felt from my side.
On that note, when I wrote a couple of months ago, I was living with my parents for ten days on holiday and it was the worst ten days in years. I felt like I was in hell. And I thought hey, let me get some abuse and drama from people. And I thought who better to get it from than a forum of people who say they are happy and harmless, they’ll give me all the cheap drama I need. And you guys absolutely did. I wanted to be abused and where did I choose to come?
But exhausted, and I realise cut connections down with people who are exhausting, or at least keep conversations simple.
There’s a part of me that wants to leave, a part of me that keeps coming back maybe because I see some value in the method, another part of me that wants a forum of actually practising actualists who I can learn from versus keyboard jockeys.
But okay, one last reply to kub, or anyone who makes sense (i sincerely hope you dont, because I dont want to communicate on here because my ROI expectations (apart from drama and amusement (which I’ve had my dose of) are zero.
At times yes, but of course I can see how my actions can be dismissive to you too, you don’t owe me any answers but I thought we would have an interesting conversation about stuff, but for some reason I seem to really antagonise you and I find your answers unsatisfying and wishy washy I think, which is interesting, becasuse I have never really been in this situation before.
Oh well, genuinely I can’t relate to that at all and among most of the people in my life. Do you think that is luck or that you have done something that has enabled things to work out spectacularly well?
Important in what way? To you personally or universally?
It is pretty tricky, I have never really found myself feeling offended since I was like 13. It is like alien territory I know longer remember how to navigate. I am usually ultra polite and unconfrontational but I obviously felt comfortable enough to communicate whatever came to my mind with you.
Just don’t shoot me with an AK-47 for my bad English, is what we call council estate English where we write more informally, more so how we speak than grammatically correct, maybe you haven’t had the pleasure of UK council estate life yet lol. Maybe a second attempt lol. “I can feel fear arising in me. I am so frightened that you now won’t like me.” What I meant to convey is how I am genuinely experiencing this moment and interaction with you and contrast it with what I would normally experience in the safety of being mr quiet and nice, maybe a bit of verbal diarrhea on my side.
Of course I know where I can be perceived to have gone off piste. I openly challenged you without any regards to your feelings or self importance. In what polite English society would consider rude, but maybe I thought you could take it lol. But also because you too seem to have already discussed concepts of understanding self and emotion so I thought you would be less affected or impacted by what I say or do, like water off a ducks back.
You haven’t hurt me or offended me, but I would want you to see that those states don’t mean anything special, and its really hard to convey that I guess. Our values systems seem totally different I guess.
Of course you can dismiss it and not give a fuck, but at least there is no ambiguity and you know my position.
Well, I am talking hypothetically of course becasuse I am not you and I can’t know what I have or haven’t made you feel.
Ok, I am reading though as best as I can and if I am not getting you, thats my bad but I am trying to find some common ground. Yes I am closed minded to certain things, as all humans close their minds to certain things because not all humams believe and value exactly the same things, but I know what I have closed my mind to and why in most cases, of course there will be blind spots and unknowns.
I knew a part of you liked me lol.
I give a shit in the sense that I don’t want humans to suffer anymore than they have to, I am curious enough about people too but that doesn’t mean I value every aspect of their personal experience. It is hard not to be authentic to yourself and what has personal value and relevance.
I am being authentic to me, and if I don’t get you that’s authentic too. Sometimes people don’t get each other or see eye to eye.
Do you think you would write the same way if I had not said something you found to be rude, like I triggered you, but I am trying to understand you at least, no brownie points for that?
No, I am not talking about you explicitly but in life in general. I have a bad habit of going off on tangents sorry lol. I mean in life in general, you are forced into conflict with people even when not intending to be rude but when you share a fact. What matters more to you, the facts or not offending or upsetting people’s beliefs? What matters to you?
I am not shitting on your facts, that was me trying to elaborate on the tricky decisions and encounters we have in life, not communicated very clearly I see now. I know what I know man and in this universe I know that is not much at all in the grand scheme of things but I am honest about what I do and don’t know at least. I have had 7 PCE’s and not since 2006 and 2007. I am doing a lot better actually with HAIETMOBA and happy and harmlessness, have had more felicitous moments and EE’s. But not being in the thrall of mental illness is great, being normal again (which isnt great I know) but is so much better than being depressed and affected by anxiety. It is like having a second chance to live life.
Shit man miscommunication happens, I am not intentionally trying to be obtuse.
Yes, did I hurt you or not? The whole point I thought was I hadn’t hurt you and we both kind of know I haven’t really hurt you
You mean read, it is the written word not spoken (sorry I couldn’t resist that lame joke). I am not making shit up I am but pointing out where you haven’t answered or I don’t get you. As well as the reasons behind the choices I make and waffling at times I can see.
In the right about me not getting to the point. Yes, ok I think I can agree on that. Is there something else you mean being right about as well?
No, I know what its a shitshow because we don’t have sufficient intent consistently enough not to be in the thrall of being a self and the shitty behaviours that we are capable of.
Because I am not the spokesperson for AF, I am just me dealing with my shit for now. Maybe when I am in a better place I can be those things but I am not there yet. A reason I probably wanted it to be a private forum. I was polite to you at first message 33 on this journal, maybe something about being ignored has triggered me.
I don’t mean I absolutely believe your a cunt, I mean this was the coping strategy I developed living on a council estate as a nerdy guy living among tougher and more aggressive people. I can be a cunt for sure probably, but I can be a pretty sweet guy too sometimes.
I meant more on the Nietzschen philosophical sense there is no such thing as moral phenomena only interpretation of moral phenomena. Not in the sense of doing whatever I want to anybody without any regard foe their well being. For example, do you think it is ethical to eat meat? Plenty of people believe that you shouldn’t and its morally wrong to eat meat. There is not some absolute scale of universal right and wrong. I knew you were going to bring up the Hare psychopathy checklist lol.
I am trying to understand you though and I can live with you thinking that.
Ok, appreciate your honesty man though I thought a narcissist seeks more external gratification and validation, right?
I know man, I have always known and have always been honest about it. Plenty of people are and plenty try to pretend or hide it.
Again man, not trying to be intentionally a dick but appreciate your patience. If you ever change your mind I would like to know.
Ok, but what if i get some value from you? Would that change your mind.
People are exploring trying to be happy and harmless not that they are happy and harmless. I don’t say I am happy and harmless though but I am aiming for it and falling short. But that is my personal journey.
There are a lof of different people at different levels so i can get it can be unrewarding.
Oh bub… I genuinely thought there was enough of a seed of sincerity and sensibility in you, that though you were misguided, so was I at one point, and so there was some chance for you to come to your senses.
Now I see that chance is minimal if not nil, and you’re just here to troll this forum.
And I don’t use that term lightly… you come here seeking drama and abuse:
And you get off on it:
Here’s what you consider abusive, which triggered off a massive tirade last time, and that you literally equated with rape:
As another example, it makes your ”skin crawl” when someone straightforwardly sets the record straight as to what someone else said in the past, and suggests it’s worthwhile for people to ponder your words and the reactions those words elicit and all that entails.
Here’s what you don’t consider abusive, that you consider to be “Zero suffering and harm felt” from your side:
You see how one is not like the other?
Bub, in simple terms, if anyone is being abusive here, it’s you.
If it wasn’t clear to you before that you have no genuine interest in actualism and actual freedom - a core part of which is harmlessness - then the above should make it clear now.
(As an aside, being strident and firm and challenging someone’s deeply held beliefs and not letting them get away with what they say is not intrinsically harmful.)
Bub, this forum isn’t set up for people to come here and abuse and troll people. I genuinely wasn’t asking you to leave before, but I’m asking you now, from my own personal side and not as a site moderator. There’s just no benefit to be had here for anyone.
And in case it wasn’t clear, I won’t accept any request from someone to say whatever they want on a thread without any challenge, especially after they’ve come to the forum with the explicit intention to stir up drama. But you shouldn’t be upset by this as you appear to enjoy the emotions you feel and put on display here for all to see. Unless you weren’t being sincere about enjoying it. As you’ve established you don’t say what you mean and mean what you say, I’m running on the assumption that basically anything you say might not be what you genuinely think.
In any case, there’s no reason we can’t all live our lives and enjoy them. I wish you well despite your intentions and our differences (with no affectation whatsoever, merely a fellowship regard).
The one where you are the one that brought up the topic, saying I was “next in line”? And where I joked that I had been “next in line” for 9 years – which was a joke as in that time Geoffrey & Srinath became free and I didn’t? As in it’s meaningless to say who is “next in line”?
Misremembering/misinterpreting this exchange so thoroughly is what is galling here!
Another post about what harmlessness was after my last post and same old echo chamber shyt showing no insight. The meaning of the communication is the response you get. Show some empathy and insight. Dont go off again and again justifying repeatedly shitty behaviours.
Jeez having made that post I have to say I feel somewhat insulted. :*( I thought it a good decent post.
You’re on fire there bub.
For me “on fire” has connotations of being “on a roll”, as in a string or series of successes. I don’t see that here, but rather the opposite.
As he said he came here last time from a bad place looking for drama, it’s possible the same is happening now. In which case it’s not really about what we’re saying here. He should look for other outlets rather than piling verbal abuse onto random strangers on the internet here. Then when he is in a better place he could possibly engage in some fruitful discussion. This certainly isn’t that.
I hope he stays but I doubt he will. He’ll burn himself out soon enough. After going room to room pumping round after round into his despised co-workers, even the most enthused mass shooter grows tired of the carnage. The crying and wailing of his victims, once music to his ears, begin to grow stale after a while.
Reminds me of the Topica list back in the old days.
Got all sorts back then. Some really vicious ones too.
It made for plenty of rich and dynamic engagement that prompted some of the best out of Richard.
It might do the same for us.
But as I said, I predict pretty soon he’ll burn out like a kid on a candy bender, if he hasn’t already.
Your bashing of the state of the forum reminded me of some things that @Srinath has brought up recently too, around the time of the global warming discussion.
Hey, Kub, I was going to say it’s not my intention to bash the forum. But I can’t bullshit you.
But yeah, it’s like when I have an argument with a girlfriend, or even friend, I might say all sorts of shit (not in the nicest of tones) BUT I’ll be happy to repeat any and all of it even when calm. Because intentions are good. And I guess I’m sharing some of my own issues too with the method. And saying emperor’s new clothes, see the light, because I can sure as hell see it in ten years time. And it’s not rocket science, or me being a fortune teller, and definitely not being mean - next ten years will be like the last ten years, or ever since the method started.
The fact is that for a few years no-one has managed to become actually free
It’s also strange that the only two people actually free live on a boat, and one of them invented the method and passes judgement on who is AF or BF. And if he says the other one is not AF, there goes his. chance of ever getting laid again. Like they say, don’t cross the boss ;).
there are guys who have been into this for 10 or more years and they are still neither actually free nor able to apply the method each moment again. This includes me, I first came across actual freedom when I was 18, then I had some time off but for the last 4 or so years it has been a dedication of mine and still no cigar, both in terms of actual freedom and in terms of feeling good each moment again.
Yeah, poor son_of_bub is desperately trying to get to a PCE since almost 20 years. And that’s not too far off anyone else.
but the replicability of the method has been extremely low so far.
I would actually disagree, allow me to explain how and why.
The method works to an extent. And most here have gotten to a similar level. Some might say BF, but c’mon, what the fuck is BF. The same feelings are still there (but they’re now called social identity).
Maybe to use a martial arts analogy, it’s like a brown belt decides to teach martial arts as a black belt. But he knows he ain’t the real deal. And people are getting very easily to brown belt. But struggling after.
So he says, no, the higher belts you have to be in sync with your breathing, in harmony with the tao, you’re trying too hard, you want it too hard.
But in reality, he’s a great teacher to get people to brown belt, but that’s about it.
Sure you can say that maybe they didn’t sincerely want it etc but when so many people try and fail where do you point the finger?
Definitely not at the method, or the founder. It has to be the students not applying it correctly (I joke of course, but mention it to be clear).
Here’s where the finger is pointed.
People don’t understand the method.
They are complicating things.
They are oversimplifying things.
They are applying their own interpretation.
BUT it’s a simple method. With no real bells and whistles.
Other people have tried it failed and left. BUT they didn’t really understand the method.
BUT it’s a super simple method. PCE. HAI… Happy harmless. All else is window dressing.
But all else ISNT window dressing. You don’t understand nuances of soul, awareness, ego, doer, beer, all sorts of random stuff.
It can go on and on.
Or like your attempt at gentle finger pointing in your journal - maybe there are other practical ways that can be looked into to help beginners. (BUT what about experienced AF peeps who seem to need it more than beginners).
The reason for inconsistences, or double speak is because of the same reason the brown belt in the example I gave will resort to waffle about tao, and harmony etc. The method works but only as much as it has already worked for the last ten years. Not as much as Richard, or the brown belt insist it does.
Where you write that Srinath is looking at other methods (I don’t know the extent to which this is accurate)
No intention to lie, but definitely more than a little guilty I let that cat out of the bag and broke Srinath’s confidentiality. Because it’s a big no-no to follow other methods.
I am not shocked or upset by this, at the end of the day we are all here for a reason and it seems it is not working.
Not a single other person on the forum would dare to say what you just said.
The problem is that actual freedom is such a recent development that the numbers are very low, essentially we are following a method that was devised by a single person and which has since been successfully replicated by a very low number of people.
Even if the numbers are low, they’re still in the tens of thousands over decades.
Like I heard a guru say (the one guru who got me to where I wanted to be in double quick time) - you find a method whose followers are successful.
With such low numbers and such low replicability how can we have confidence that the current method is the most successful (in allowing others to become free)?
No you can’t, but doesn’t stop people who’ve been trying like all get out for years to little practical avail (Beyond AF brown belt equivalent) say it’s the best method.
Which leads to what you mention about it being cult-like. I am starting to see the danger of this in myself, of the actualist identity, of lacking originality.
This seems like a cookie cutter one size fits all methodology. And everybody MUST want to get rid of feelings, if they don’t let them have a PCE and then decide.
BUT if I gave someone a drug that would bliss them out their whole lives, they would be bored senseless.
There are some people who will spend $30k on a rolex, and others who will think that’s a criminal waste of money. Someone will buy a vomit green beat up jalopy.
That’s the richness of the human tapestry. People have the capacity to make wise but also importantly unwise decisions. But everybody is NOT the same.
But it seems that there has to be something much more original in the individual to go all the way.
Like your martial arts analogy, here it seems like it’s the student who’s somehow not getting it right.
I think as I’ve said, great method, works much better than a lot more, but works as much as it has been shown to.
I had this thought today that kind of summarises what I am trying to convey (very poorly ) :
Got everything except this sentence
But it seems that there has to be something much more original in the individual to go all the way.
I thought to myself that it would be the best possible outcome if being an actualist, the actual freedom trust and the rest of it some day soon fades into some obscure corner of history, of ‘what once was’. Why? Because the human condition has been eradicated, people live in actual peace and harmony and now what is the actual freedom method? Merely something that had to be devised to end sorrow and malice.
Richard comes across as crotchety, impatient, petty, pedantic (could go on). If he read my posts, I’d be off the forum faster than you can say happy and harmless.
And he’s going to get the world to eradicate the human condition?! Really?!
C’mon, this guy can’t even get his followers to succeed at his method and he’s going to be responsible for peace and harmony in the whole world. And carrying this all out from a boat in the arse end of nowhere.
I wanted abuse a couple of months ago, I ran here because I knew I would get it. And this forum is going to be the bastion of the new free world?!
The goal was never to be an actualist.
Hah, just teasing and making sure I got this right - your goal was world peace and harmony and you thought AF was going to get you and everybody else there?
But yeah, neither was my goal to be an actualist, or even get to AF, but to explore another method with ‘some’ super valid points.
Son_of_bob
I do like you, youre a decent guy and you also know (just like me) you’re inherently likeable. you basterd!
I’ll reply because you were decent enough to say you’ll hear if I can provide value.
I’ll be quick here, dude, nothing wrong with you that I’d change apart from listening. Maybe 1-2 other things I can expand on. But will reply in more detail later.
On a side note, look at the trolls rushing in. Rick’s a new face who I’ll have to ignore too. Likening me to school shooters pumping round after round in. Jeez.
The meaning of the communication is the response you get.
I don’t feel I’ve been abusive towards s_o_b, and don’t believe he’s been abusive towards me (rude a couple of times, and not listening or obtuse at absolute worst) and we’re both here happily chatting away to each other.
I thought I wouldn’t reply to s_o_b, but I read his most recent reply and the lad is like me - a charming eminently likeable sumbitch even if a spectacular pain in the ass at times.
I’ve been thinking recently about how we clock people into good and bad groups (and accurately too).
I was walking from school one day after having another shit day, all of a sudden these sorrowful emotions I was feeling reached a peak and disappeared along with ‘me’. Immediately I became aware of a perfection that was all around, it was ‘in the air’ so to speak, palpable. I looked back and saw that who ‘I’ was, was nothing but some psychological/psychic echo, the sum total of all the conditioning.
I knew that this perfection was my destiny, that I had found the meaning of life, this intense release at finally having located perfection somehow turned into sorrow and this sorrow then morphed into an all encompassing love and compassion.
So the PCE turned into an ASC and sent me down a path of meditation, perhaps also because this was the closest I could find at the time to people describing the experience I had.
Finally by pure chance I stumbled across the AFT and I immediately knew that Richard was describing this very experience of perfection that I had walking from school, in fact he was the only one I could find that was talking about it.
So of course it made sense to follow the method he has devised to live this experience 24/7. But at the end of the day ‘being an actualist’ was never my motivation. My motivation was that experience of perfection, the method and all that is secondary and I think this is super important, that the commitment to living the perfection one has tasted in the PCE comes before everything else, before any ism.
I think the issues I am seeing are because this gets flipped back to front. So now the ism has been assimilated into the identity (in some way made sacred) and is being wielded like a sword whilst the tectonic plates of identity are still shifting underneath.
I think to live the perfection tasted in the PCE I need to be a fellow human being rather than an actualist. The intent has to flow directly from the perfection.
Just for accuracy, I wasn’t practicing for 20 years, after being run over in September 2007, I had two years of total hell physically and psychologically. My awareness was shot to shit, obsessing over physical symptoms was the be all and end all of my reality. Sure there were moments of coming back to HAIETMOBA but nothing consistent or truly using the method. I decided I wanted to explore my creative, intellectual pursuits and being in love. At that time I had only experienced unrequited love. Even in those years I had constant battles with depression and anxiety, close to being sectioned one time too.
I only honestly came back to AF in 2018, still in the aftermath of relapsed depression and anxiety but after CBT helped stabilise me.
Interaction on the forum helped me understand those aspects I had misunderstood or misinterpreted about the method. This is what I meant with my messages regarding misunderstanding English, because words have so many overloaded meanings and interpretations.
Definitely, both are always vaible arguments, as you would have seen was the case explored by a lot of us but a lot of those discussions were on the forums that got wiped.
Definitely, I agree and interaction with people on the forum like @Srinath and @geoffrey and others helped clear that up for me personally and I think others too.
I would also add there are those that understood the method but came to the conclusion the state cannot be existed permanently and dedicated their lives to different pursuits, my friend who introduced me to AF did this and he was long time interactor on the original Topica and Yahoo forums, plus other members I had got to know a little. I was in both of those but barely ever communicated direct, mostly private messaged or messaged through my friend. He decided he wanted to dedicate his life to anti natalism and veganism and spreading both of these in the end. I was the friend he was perpetually disappointed in for being a meat eater and selfishly having kids.
For some people that might be the case but not everyone, I don’t think its fair to tar people with the same brush. Like people on the AF forum are some Borg collective.
I would, if I didn’t find myself progressively getting better, but I can consider I might be selfishly considering only its value to me and not its universal applicability. My failings previously I thought were because of my misunderstandings of the method. So, I guess it is how does one differentiate between failings in the method and ones own inadequacies or the failings of those individuals attempting the method. Me and my friend criticised the method and aspects back on the old forums as did others, sometimes he would raise my points as I was too cowardly to be in the line of fire myself, more so as a fear of confrontation rather than of some absolute unquestionable value of the method being sacred and sacrosanct.
The quantification and qualitative value of what is successful or where you want to be will be so idiosyncratic and different for so many people. I reckon I could have taught others how to tap into the creative highs from learning and creativity if I was more confident (like I said it still has conditional aspects and doesn’t produce the goods overall) but I believe it could have helped a lot of generally unhappy people, I think I could have had more success with that than the wider AF methods exposure and headcount (hell maybe I could ahve got rich). But that is because I guess the PCE is something quite esoteric, not sure if that is the right way to put it.
When you have a realisation of the non specialness of feelings it is hard to undo that. For example, that personal realisation (which is pre AF and PCE exposure) changed my view that I previously saw every feeling as natural and valid in its own right. Then suddenly they were no longer special or the be all and end all, I could not undo that personal realisation without being artificial. Then when suffering, there was a new realisation of how unsavoury and unbeneficial feelings could get. For 2 years, I lived with total panic and fear, like my brain was just malfunctioning after my head was hit very hard. I was in some altered reality where more suffering and death was going to happen. I didn’t know it was possible to hurt that bad too, I miss the ignorance of not knowing that. The true realisation of your mortality and not just a fleeting thought about it, I guess it might have been a wasted opportunity that I couldn’t leverage that dread to a more freeing state.
I didn’t want to get rid of feelings when I had my first PCE, I just no longer let them dictate what was possible for me, which for a low self esteem person and fearful person, limits and shrinks your life so much. The PCE itself has no feelings in operation and shows you a confidence that everything can be ok with that too. However, it still doesn’t protect you from harm or harming others, because its experoence enough isn’t transformative enough to ultimately change you, so yes it is just the beginning of a journey that will vary wildly from individual to individual.
I agree, which makes it all the more complicated, right?
My friend had this reaction to Richard too but I personally never found him that bad, pedantic I would agree on but I never found him salty like my friend did. I have seen people react like that to my family members when they have just been brutally honest, and I didn’t think in those certain moments they were being petty or cruel, there so many ways interactions can be interpreted. I think there are a lot of individual reactions to how people see things, my particular friend had parents that only ever criticised constructively and were super nice, super polite, so everyone must seem harsh and rude in comparison to that I used to think. Everyone seemed more artifical and fake to me compared to my family too like I had to second guess what people were actually thinking or feeling, I find so many people don’t say what they think or feel.
I never really thought about that, I tend not to always focus on end goals but the journey. To me it is more about the relation and authenticity of experiences described, to me personally, again very selfish. The experience and it’s being replicable is what matters to me, I never really bought into or concerned myself with some overall end goal for humanity, maybe a jaded belief the majority of humanity will never change. Additionally, for me it isn’t about him or some other person, it is about its value and repeatibility of what is described. An exploration of the feasibility of something. I am like that with science too though, I often find myself not caring about Einstein or Feynman or the scientists individual stories but the knowledge itself, the ideas and the information is what holds most currency to me not the who.
I guess for me, it is like having the instructions to make a chemical reaction that should be repeatable. The problem is the process and progress is incremental and easily misinterpreted, like the difference between imperial or metric units in a scientific experiment. There are other benefits such as not suffering as much, reduced moments of harmfulness and malice. feeling more felicitous, having EE’s which are themselves incremental benefits that have individual value too, to me especially but of course the achievement of the continuation of a PCE will be the ultimate litmus. After a significant period of improvement when does an individual decide the method is no longer working in that regard, it is tricky. Personally, there is still positive momentum for me so I am not at that fork in the road yet.
I really hate being called a follower, I noticed. It really unsettles me. I follow the experiences and the method and ideas, not Richard. Its my problem with gurus too, the word has some overloaded emotional distrustful reaction like I do with priest, mullah, rabbi, etc. Somebody having a title instantly makes me not want to listen to them, if Richard had called himself guru Richard then I probably wouldn’t have even read any words on the site, an atheist discriminatory reaction in me maybe. It makes me cringe personally thinking of people giving themselves titles, hey I am a guru, not just religious but other domains too like somebody saying I am a fashion guru, I am an expert software developer. My current employers label my role as Senior developer and I really don’t even like that title lol, and I never use it.
I don’t really agree with you that there is some collective mindset here, maybe because I have
experienced enough of the different forums and their evolution and the different people over the years. I think you had an unrealsitic expectation of where this forum and its members are at, is that possible? Maybe because @Srinath introduced you, you might have thought of more people at that level he had acheived. I see it as a forum of people wanting to change and wanting to be better, even if not achieving it, it is still better than pretending the status quo is optimal or not wanting to be a better version of yourself.
The same for me, except it was the first method I had explored at the time of exposure, I had not explored other methods at all as regards happiness, only explored belief systems and philosophies.
Same, I am a bad listener I know, or things go over my head and certain styles of writing suit my thinking better. I find myself having to re-read your stuff a lot.
I think my wife would agree lol.
Wow, interesting. I really do see everyone as bad, like the whole world are antagonists until proven otherwise, and it takes a long time and a lot of criteria to be accepted. I can see that defensive everyone is a cunt stance, it feels protective but is also limits ones friend pool and personal circle.
Critiquing the forum is of course not off-limits. I do seriously question your understanding of the world, however.
You have perceived your interactions with me to be so abusive, vile and repulsive that I’m now irredeemably a bad person, with no nugget of a decent guy left anywhere, who literally makes your “skin crawl”… and what, precisely, did I do?
If you go back and see what I actually wrote, it was nothing but me calling you on your bullshit, repeatedly and precisely. I didn’t even use use ad-hominems or any name-calling, because it wasn’t a personal attack directed at you, it was an attempt to get you to see that what you are writing isn’t consistent with itself.
My biggest crime apparently was not respecting your path - but you don’t respect the actualism path either. So how come if someone doesn’t respect your path you are morally justified in going on large tirades, equating someone criticizing it literally with rape (I can’t get over that), but you get to bash on the forum and ask that nobody disturb you while you’re doing so? You can dish it but you can’t take it, eh?
Meanwhile you call your corespondent a “narcissist”, and a “dickhead” – and you take great care in emphasizing that he’s only a dickhead because he’s “too much of a dimwit” to reach the heights of being a “cunt” – and then you write you’re “happy to repeat any and all of it” and are “happy to stand behind” it, and none of it is “abusive”? (Side note: reading this again I now find a rather funny aspect to it .).
Yet somebody not respecting your path and critiquing it in a calm and no-personal-attacks manner is “abuse”???
It truly boggles the mind!
The big picture is this:
You can try to criticize the aspirant actualists/actually free all you want, but before you can critique them validly and present something better you have to first demonstrate that you understand them
You simply don’t understand what actualism and actual freedom are enough to form a coherent critique of them
The most fundamental misunderstanding of all is that you don’t understand that actual freedom is something new, not something old – and as such it doesn’t make sense to compare it to another path which has “tens of thousands over decades” of successes, as those successes are a success in something else (flowers successfully growing but car still broken)
So for God’s sake get over yourself, step down off your high-horse of your you-so-know-you-are-right-that-you-can-freely-hurl-verbal-insults-because-you’re-so-sure-of-yourself , and maybe we can actually have a decent conversation about all this.
In an attempt to be more effective in my communication with you, taking cues from how you yourself communicate: This is bullshit. People misunderstand each other all the time. Offense is taken where none is implied.
As an obvious example, my response to your message to son of bob is you were being abusive. You say you weren’t. But according to your logic, it doesn’t matter. The meaning is the response, therefore you were abusive.
In reality, the response someone has to a communication depends on two things:
What the communicator says / how they say it
What the communicated-to hears / how they understand it
To put 100% of it on #2 is, again, bullshit. It’s just a way you are using to justify your misunderstandings of what’s been written here, part of your neat worldview of you-are-right-and-we-are-wrong.
[> Again man, not trying to be intentionally a dick but appreciate your patience. If you ever change your mind I would like to know.
Ok, but what if i get some value from you? Would that change your mind.
This is exactly what changed my mind - your humility, graciousness and apparent open mindedness.
Just don’t shoot me with an AK-47 for my bad English,
Hey, I thought I was being super funny - you criticised my english, I gleefully grabbed the chance to throw it back at you. And Samuel L Jackson’s phrase came to mind.
“I can feel fear arising in me. I am so frightened that you now won’t like me.”
Rest assured s_o_b, I actually feel a decent degree of affection towards you.
.I openly challenged you without any regards to your feelings or self importance. In what polite English society would consider rude, but maybe I thought you could take it lol.
Course I can take it. I enjoyed yesterday’s exchange. And despite wanting to leave, and not having any motivation to stay apart from these last couple of messages to you and kub.
You haven’t hurt me or offended me, but I would want you to see that those states don’t mean anything special, and its really hard to convey that I guess. Our values systems seem totally different I guess.
I knew a part of you liked me lol.
Overconfident fuck
I am being authentic to me, and if I don’t get you that’s authentic too. Sometimes people don’t get each other or see eye to eye.
but I am trying to understand you at least, no brownie points for that?
Yes, did I hurt you or not? The whole point I thought was I hadn’t hurt you and we both kind of know I haven’t really hurt you
Okay, here’s me trying to provide value. I don’t see it helping tbh, but maybe years down the line when you see this, you’ll think, ahh, fuck, fair play to bub. Arsey bitch clocked me right. Now you won’t be able to get it. Sorry, but that’s what my crystal ball says.
Let’s take the example of the good guys on the forum I mentioned and the facepalm guys.
Kub absolutely got me. Addressed the issue. Reflected. And made a plan on what he needed to change and even made a post about it in his journal.
The other jokers would just waffle and hide behind words, troll, and I’ll think this mofo just doesnt care enough to want to get it. And he’s on his own agenda.
So what I’m suggesting isn’t that you ‘try’ to understand, and then dismiss saying communication styles.
But that you actually understand.
There’s a joke (in not the best taste) asking what do a million domestically abused women have in common. A: An inability to listen.
But you have to care. Now you’ll go on a tangent and say “why should I care? I only care that you don’t suffer”. BUT then I’ll say Srinath said his self immolation stepped up bigtime when he added compassion (or some other similar word maybe caring, I don’t quite remember) into the mix.
More about caring in a way you are almost forced to assimilate.
I have learnt to judge harmlessness by the amount of parity and consideration I apply to others whom I come in contact with, both at work and at play, and not by merely feeling myself to be harmless. Vineeto SC Harmless
When I’m dealing with some of the most difficult (and entitled) people on the face of the planet in my job, I just focus on listening.
In the Negotiation masterclass by Never Split the Difference author Chris Voss, he says the old model of negotiation was scramble to split and get as much. In the new model, it’s just to get the other person to say ‘you’re right’ when explaining the situation. Or some other two words to acknowledge being understood.
With this form of negotiation, all you give the other person is understanding them and then take the whole 100% and not that old 50/50 split.
If your wife doesn’t feel listened to, and you say pfft, you’re making a big deal out of nothing, I dont care, I dont care about right or wrong about what I did, why are you giving me the power to affect your emotions, etc etc, it’s not going to be a happy ending.
So yeah, caring enough about listening, parity and consideration, but actually getting the point and responding to it.
The other extreme are the facepalms on the forum. They don’t care, will carry on justifying egregious behaviours (like rick saying hurting others is still fair game in the harmlessness thread).
And nothing is addressed.
It’s not about trying to understand, but actually making the other person feel understood. THATS the success meter.
You’re really one of us, s_o_b. Dont go to the dark side with the facepalms.
Okay, listening, trying vs understanding, making the other person feel understood, caring, parity, consideration.
Next lesson - insight (fuck remorse or apology, that’s not necessary, even an intention to act differently is much more than enough).
But again, seeing the other person’s side.
If you’re having an argument with your wife, or a family member, which way it goes depends on how much the other person feels you’ve understood or gotten insight.
People take the shortcut and say I’m sorry you felt hurt, I didn’t mean to hurt you - that’s offensive and puts the onus on the person being hurt i.e. they were oversensitive.
But if you say, hey by calling you a dimwit, I crossed the line into rudeness, and I do feel a tiny bit of guilt for that.
Just be a man and put your hand up.
Kub finds he pisses anyone off, he’ll know EXACTLY where he went wrong, or if not, ACCURATELY surmise the other person is just after drama. And he will make plans to change so it doesn’t repeat.
The facepalms will justify, blame the other person, and actually ask where the fuck did I wrong, and when told they will dismiss it in some way.
Just man the fuck up and accept shit. See the reality of the situation as it is. (sure, there’s no reality, and we dont even know basics like is this real, free will or not, etc).
I’m cheeky not rude. Have the balls (like you said) to accept or acknowledge your rudeness.
When I crossed the line into rudeness (dimwit comment), I called myself out on it.
When you said all sorts of stuff about me - I put my hand up and accepted as many of them as I felt were true i.e. me also being dismissive, no straight forward answers and cherry picking answers.
Heck I even came right out and said my last time here was shitty times and I came here looking for abuse (wasn’t my superficial intention, but upon reflection, thats exactly what it was).
I’m not making stuff up - when you repeatedly said sorry not the case, I was projecting. And then saying ‘apologise for the rest of my life?!’
Integrity - I am who I am. I do the things I say I do.
Someone I knew once said, all problems in life come from integrity leaks.
Logic and accountability. Dont be like a woman.
And honesty and sincerity - if the method is valid, repeatable, replicable, then replicate it.
Dont say I haven’t tried hard enough, long enough, right enough, etc.
Then say okay, method isn’t replicable all the time, or most of the time, or even any of the time and be honest with yourself with what is replicable or not.
I do see your side bub, you are the one that doesn’t see my side
As I said, I’ve literally been there before, thinking a spiritual path was equivalent to actualism when it turned out it wasn’t.
I have first-hand knowledge about this phenomenon. You are exhibiting it perfectly on here, complete with all the misunderstandings, inconsistencies, false reasoning, failing to learn & listen, etc., that comes along with it.
Take what you wrote here and apply it directly to yourself.
) :
.).
