I’m sorry, unable to converse unless
My request for the space for my own journey is respected.
Thank you for understanding.
Same goes for anyone else intending to reply here.
PETER: As an actualist, I always put the aim to be harmless towards my fellow human beings first and my aim for happiness second, because it is impossible for me be happy unless I am harmless. For anyone who is sincere about peace on earth it is essential to put becoming harmless first … and then increased happiness invariably follows. In the case in point, if one stops being sarcastic, as in expressing bitter or wounding remarks to others, then one has more chance of being happy … which in turn means that one has less reason to feel cynical …which in turn means one is less prone to be sarcastic and so on … until both cynicism and sarcasm eventually disappear as if by magic. It’s a fascinating business to see, and experientially understand, how feelings are interlinked, how they produce an endless cycle of ups and downs, how there is a continuous tendency to wound and then feel wounded, how there is a seesaw sequence of excitement and boredom … and so on.
While in stark contrast, the actualism method is about enjoying and appreciating being alive in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are, i.e. without changing anything about the world… in other words, a (relatively) unconditional enjoyment.
How on earth can I live happily and harmlessly in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are whilst I nurse malice and sorrow in my bosom?
In essence ‘you’ are running the show, ‘you’ are letting ‘your’ feelings be the arbiter of what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, how things should be and what is ‘good’ and what is ‘problematic’,
My interest has always laid in the reasons for the persistent inability of human beings to live together in peace and harmony and it would seem in hindsight that this abiding interest meant that I could not ignore the intrinsic challenge that is at the core of actualism – can I prove by living example that it is possible, in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are, to live with my fellow human beings in utter peace and harmony?
RICHARD (to Respondent No. 33): Malice and sorrow are intrinsically connected and constitute what is known as ‘The Human Condition’. The term ‘Human Condition’ is a well-established philosophical term that refers to the situation that all human beings find themselves in when they emerge here as babies. The term refers to the contrary and perverse nature of all peoples of all races and all cultures. There is ‘good’ and ‘bad’ in everyone … all humans have a ‘dark side’ to their nature and a ‘light side’. The battle betwixt ‘Good and Evil’ has raged down through the centuries and it requires constant vigilance lest evil gets the upper hand. Morals and ethics seek to control the wayward self that lurks deep within the human breast … and some semblance of what is called ‘peace’ prevails for the main. Where morality and ethicality fails to curb the ‘savage beast’, law and order is maintained … at the point of a gun. The ending of malice and sorrow involves getting one’s head out of the clouds – and beyond – and coming down-to-earth where the flesh and blood bodies called human beings actually live. Obviously, the solution to all the ills of humankind can only be found here in space and now in time. Then the question is: is it possible to be free of the human condition, here on earth, in this life-time, as this flesh and blood body? Which means: How on earth can I live happily and harmlessly in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are whilst I nurse malice and sorrow in my bosom?
Me’ feeling bad is essentially this - an objection to the way things are. As such the solution with actualism isn’t to change the way things are (from one equally perfect arrangement to another) such as to appease ‘my’ objections. Rather it’s about removing ‘my’ objections to things being the way they are. This is the only possible way to successfully continuously (i.e. (relatively) unconditionally) enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive, otherwise there will always be endless objections and changing things to appease ‘me’. The problem is ‘me’, not the universe.
Indeed this same spirit is applied in actualism – there is indeed a problem and it does indeed need resolving. It’s just that in the normal way, the problem is the universe and the solution is changing the universe, while in the actualist way, the problem is ‘me’ and the solution is changing ‘me’.
As such the world does not need to change in order for this perfection to permeate. No matter what state the world is in, what (conditional) arrangement of the matter and particles and humans and things in it – it is already all perfect. Who am ‘I’ to say that something is wrong with the way things are? It is akin to saying that water is ‘wrong’ for flowing downstream.
Thank you all for engaging with me and offering your insights into the actualism method. While I appreciate the opportunity for dialogue and the intentions behind your comments, I have to point out some inconsistencies and contradictions that have emerged.
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Acceptance vs. Prescriptiveness: The actualism method advises us to accept the world and people as they are. Yet, there’s a pervasive insistence that I should adopt a specific method or aim for a specific goal, such as self-immolation, rather than respecting my journey. This contradicts the principle of acceptance.
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Harmlessness: This method promotes the importance of being harmless. However, the tone and the response to my boundaries have been far from harmless. I’ve explicitly requested for my journey to be respected, yet this has been ignored.
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Autonomy and Independence: The dismissal of my choices and autonomy is blatant. The forum seems to suggest that their way is the only way to achieve a certain mental state, dismissing my own experiences and choices as substandard.
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Negative vs. Positive Engagement: The method emphasizes happiness and harmlessness, yet the tone has been decidedly negative, particularly when my perspectives diverge from the forum’s accepted narrative of only one method, all the others suck, and if you want us to help, it has to be. on our terms i.e. sign up and commit to the entirety of the method. (Apart from Claudiu, the tone has been of course cordial, but the harmful jab is ever present).
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Hypocrisy and Self-Righteousness: The claim that this is the only method that works in the world seems rather self-righteous and, quite frankly, hypocritical. Given the limited success stories related to this method, the confidence with which this claim is made is bewildering. Reminds me of the emperor’s new clothes.
I understand that this is a public forum, and feedback is a natural part of this environment. However, I was under the impression that this forum was open to multiple interpretations and personal journeys. I find myself compelled to reconsider my involvement here, given the above contradictions and the increasingly dogmatic tone. Which is a shame really, as AF is a fantastic method.
As such, I would appreciate it if you are not able to accept me as I am, and be harmless (repeatedly pressing the one big trigger that I ask you not to press is a harmful action in my view, and again further fleshes out the hypocrisy and double talk) could refrain from commenting on my future posts. If you choose to ignore this request, it would only further substantiate the lack of harmlessness and respect that I’ve observed here.
Here’s a heads up on the harmless option:
Bub, sure, go with whatever journey you want, we accept you as you are.
If you have AF doubts, we’re happy to clarify them for you.
Anything else will be percieved as a deliberately malicious and harmful action, in opposition to clearly stated preferences, and even the specifics of the method like accept the world as it is, and people as they are. The extents of the blind spots in relation to this is staggering.
This is a call to practice what you preach.
But there’s no controlling people, they will continue to behave as they always have, even if it’s in direct contradiction to all they purport to believe in.
Thank you for your attention, and I wish you all the best in your respective journeys.
Imagine a community garden, a place where everyone is invited to plant seeds of various kinds—flowers, fruits, vegetables, you name it, where each of us is given a patch of soil to cultivate. In this community, there are gardeners who swear by a specific type of fertilizer or a unique planting technique. They’ve had success with it and claim it’s the only method that guarantees growth. These gardeners go around insisting that others should only use their method, interrupting others’ natural processes and replacing foreign fertilizers with their own preferred one.
Yet, upon closer observation, you’ll notice that only a couple of patches are truly flourishing under this one-size-fits-all method, while the rest seem to struggle or are stuck in perpetual stagnation. Now, what happens when a new gardener arrives, eager to learn but also wanting to experiment with other types of soil, nutrients, or even seeds? Instead of celebrating the diversity and potential for new blossoming flowers or fruits, some members of the community immediately dismiss the newcomer’s ideas, claiming that only their fertilizer can yield results.
In their insistence, these gardeners have overlooked the essence of gardening itself: the miracle of life, the beauty of diversity, and the joy of witnessing growth in many forms and colors. They’re so fixated on their way of doing things that they miss out on the larger tapestry of life taking shape around them.
Hi Bub,
Here’s the first time you brought up the word “respect” in this thread [1]:
Here you indicted respect isn’t important to you and you are “more than happy” if I “completely disagree”.
This is the second instance:
Here again you indicate it is “a-ok” if one’s journey is not respected.
As it was “a-ok” not to, it was an opportune moment to point out how it’s not always sensible to respect (as in hold in high esteem) someone’s journey.
This is the 3rd post respect is mentioned, in response to that:
All this is to point out that you hadn’t actually set this boundary of “please respect my journey” before this 3rd post.
Apparently it was important to you all along, yet you either didn’t recognize it was or didn’t articulate it. This is why I frequently brought up the importance of sincerity and disentangling internal contradictions in our conversations so far.
———
It appears that your main qualm is that some person or persons here are attempting to prevent you from going on the journey you want.
Yet this is not what is happening. You can of course go on whatever journey you want, and nobody here (at least not the person writing these words) is even attempting to stop you from doing so.
If you can point to somewhere I was disallowing you from going on whatever journey you want, it would be appreciated — but you won’t be able to as I haven’t done that.
Given this wish is being respected, the posting continues.
What I’ve actually done is as you wrote next:
That is, I’ve given advice based on your stated personal interest in AF and actualism, tailored to help you with said stated goals.
Only limiting it to the questions you ask, instead of also the things you write that are not in accordance with what is beneficial to applying the actualism method, would only be doing you a disservice.
The main issue is that you are conflating acceptance with approval, allowance with endorsement, letting-be with concordance, not-attempting-to-change-the-other with validation.
Pointing out that what you are doing is not in accordance with your stated goals is not attempting to stop you from doing anything, but rather informing you of the facts of the matter. What you do with that information is up to you of course.
If what you are asking is that nobody posts anything critical on your journal, and only agreements with what you are doing are to be written here – then that will be up to each individual whether they choose to respect it, but then I question the purpose of writing in a public forum specifically set up for actualism (and not spirituality). If that is so it would appear you are looking for an echo chamber of validation rather than pursuing the actualism method and AF.
I don’t think you’re actually looking for this… you wrote you found the posts helpful and your convo with Srinath helpful where he was stating things you weren’t doing/disagreed with (like about harmlessness). But that is just my evaluation.
I’ll leave it here as until these core matters are resolved there is not much purpose in conversing back and forth on any other matters.
Cheers,
Claudiu
(according to the search function): ↩︎
Hi @bub,
I hope you don’t mind me adding a post here in your journal. Thank you for taking time to participate in the forum and for being able to give your honest feedback. Please accept my apology for the length of this post.
The AF site is simply explaining this sense of the thinking aspect of self and the feeling aspect of self. For me, I have experienced such a mix up of how I think and feel about myself, at first I hadn’t noticed the subtle differences but over time I can see more clearly the subtle differences in this area.
I can grasp aspects of what Richard is saying though, for I know I have such identities as this Atheist, the writer, software developer and lone wolf type identities.
Whereas on the emotional aspect of who I feel myself to be, it is evident in the moment there are instinctual reactions of how people or events trigger me and this sense of feeling towards my past and memories. All my past story and the emotional vibes and flavours it creates ties into that feeling aspect of my identity.
My personal experience is as a voice in my head that strangely talks to itself as a manifestation of thoughts, ideas and memories as well as me experiencing emotional reactions and sensory input. This sense of self can shift its awareness and focus onto the thinking, emotional and sensory experiences at times, or at other times one particular mode seems to dominate of its own happening.
I at first thought this was the same for everyone and then started to realise there were different ways people experienced their internal reality, some people didn’t talk to themselves, some people had a completely quiet mind etc.
I would also reiterate that Actual Freedom and practicing the method is not a philosophy (An Actual Freedom is Not a Philosophy/ Theory). I too made this mistake initially. It is more an experiential approach, and it is very easy to be misunderstood.
Richard: An actual freedom from the human condition is not a philosophy … and just so that there is no misunderstanding: it is not a metaphysics either, or an idea, an ideal, a belief, a concept, an opinion, a conjecture, a speculation, an assumption, a presumption, a supposition, a surmise, an inference, a judgement, an intellectualisation, an imagination, a posit, an image, an analysis, a viewpoint, a view, a stance, a perspective, a standpoint, a position, a world-view, a mind-set, a state-of-mind, a frame-of-mind, or any other of the 101 ways of dismissing a direct report of what it is to be actually free from the human condition and living the utter peace of the perfection of the purity welling endlessly as the infinitude this eternal, infinite and perpetual universe actually is.
The best way that I can describe it, is that it is something experiential. In the same way that I often see people misrepresent depression, anxiety and panic attacks from those who clearly have no experiential understanding of the conditions. It is one thing to read in a book or a website about such conditions but a completely different understanding to have experientially encountered them (though I wouldn’t wish anybody to experience those or aim to experience those states lol). The same way I cannot pretend to understand a Schizophrenic’s hallucinations from reading a book on abnormal psychology.
Therefore, until you have had a PCE and can experientially verify what the descriptions are indicating then you only have a superficial understanding of what is being described. I started out this way, I was even sceptical that such a state or experience was even possible but I now know that I was wrong. This is because I came from an initial stance that all subjective experiences are invalid, I only valued the objective aspects of this universe. However, with language we can convey shared subjective experiences and discern whether subjective experiences are similar or the same, and we can determine which subjective experiences have personal validity to us. For example, I reject peoples subjective experiences of God which to a lot of people makes me an asshole, but that is the benefit of freedom, you can choose what you choose to accept, validate, reject.
Despite being from such different starting points (atheist vs spiritualist) so many of our misunderstandings or points of initial rejection of AF are very similar.
I too had this overarching sense that all feelings are “ok” and that what arises, arises and one has to deal with it. I had found my own method of happiness from learning and creativity though which helped me overcome negative feelings I didn’t like. However, eventually I found these to be conditional. By this, I mean I encountered experiences and situations in which no longer worked to keep in a happy and stable way. Also, being honest and recognising how many of my emotions could be harmful to others.
What I have experientially discovered for myself, was that there are some forms of psychological suffering which can come unexpected and easily take away that overarching sense of ok.
I think a lot of peoples ok is only ok because it hasn’t been stress tested with extreme conditions that might break that ok-ness, like being caught in a violent encounter, a war or a natural disaster. I saw this with Covid and the pandemic, many people who had sworn to me about living happy lives, suddenly their happiness was also shown to be conditional and the pandemic took away the circumstances that made their happiness previously viable.
Until you have experienced it, it is really difficult to appreciate the significance of it. Your life is never the same afterwards, in much the same way it is never the same if you have experienced the worse that depression and anxiety has to offer or some of the most extreme positive emotions such as being in love (whether unrequited or reciprocated). It changes you and your perception of life. The different emotional experiences show you more about how you work and tick but a PCE for me was like a whole new ball game, like dang…hard to ignore and ever be as I was before.
Feelings always had high value to me, especially sorrow, nostalgia, love and all of the emotional vibes and highs associated with creativity and learning. Everything feeling had its place and value, because it had creative meaning and personal meaning as well.
Eventually though, I saw feelings and emotions as being strings pushing and pulling me away from certain stimuli. Why did I have to feel any particular way to anything.
I guess I was curious and sincere enough to want to know what the experience was like before I decided whether it was something to ignore or dismiss. The same option is valid for you but if it isn’t coming from a sincere place, there is no point of even bothering. However, that choice is always yours, that is where your autonomy is shown.
Do you see this as a real subjective experience or a hallucination? Hallucinations, unconscious imagination, delusions…they make it so difficult to value and qualify subjective experiences. This is why I was very sceptical about the PCE but the friend who first told me about it was one of my closest friends and I didn’t doubt his sincerity. If a different person in my life was telling me about it and I might have never explored this pathway. [Edited for correction 02/01/2024]
Well…the physics as to whether we live in a deterministic or non-deterministic universe are unknown. So, if we are being honest, there is no evidence to support the future has already been written out, but there is no evidence to contradict it either, much like the existence of a supreme being.
Ideas such as eternalism and block universe theory about such aspects are not facts and bring up interesting philosophical ideas but they are not quite anything we can use to make valuable predictions or test in a repeatable fashion, therefore I would urge caution in accepting the validity of certain scientific theories and being careful to distinguish those that remain in the purely theoretic realm as opposed to the experimental and experiential.
You can’t know that but you do know this is the only moment your alive, so it surely has more practical value. Acknowledging the value of this moment in time being the only moment in which anything of relevance to us is happening, it will be a moment like this until we die. Additionally, if everything is written out then it contradicts your own ideas on autonomy and choice, for if everything is absolutely written out then you have no autonomy anyway lol.
It is always a careful balance between ideas being consistent with facts and being actual facts themselves. It is so easy for something to be only a piece of a picture or sometimes a mistake and a misunderstanding and knowledge takes us in a different direction. The probabilistic nature of the universe and our understanding of certain phenomena for example, are not always as straight forward and clear cut as we may think or have been taught in school, you peel back layers of the onion and find the concepts are more complicated and nuanced than expected.
I would reiterate the importance of this experience and that until you can definitively say you have experienced such a thing then there is no true commonality. As somebody who started out without having ever had such an experience nor the memory of one, I can appreciate how wrong my initial conceptualisations of the experience were.
The AF method has nothing to do with accepting people as they are and the world as it is, but we can understand that evolution has allowed the conditions for all of the crazy behaviours to form and thus the human condition. How can I ever really feel a deep hatred and blame of somebody who has done something wrong when I know they are a puppet on a string, following emotions and behaviours that have evolved without them to blame. Hence, for a long time my anger was more directed towards the universe for allowing such conditions to arise, but the same universe has provided a means to suffer less and have the chance to make choices that benefit my general well being, though it is not as easy as I wish at times, each moment at least presents a new opportunity.
Can I take more credit for being more aware of my behaviour than somebody that doesn’t? All of the different people and events that led me to have more insight into how I tick even before having had a PCE…so many variables in an individual life.
RICHARD: I do not advise anyone to ‘accept the world as it is, with people as they are’ … I always put the question this way: ‘How can I live happily and harmlessly in the world as-it-is with people as-they-are?’ Which means: how is it possible to enjoy and appreciate being here, each moment again, as this flesh and blood body? Or: in what way can one live in complete fulfilment and total contentment for the remainder of one’s life? With the purity and perfection of a pure consciousness experience (PCE) firmly in mind as one’s guiding light one asks, each moment again: ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’
Incidentally, the word ‘acceptance’ has a lot of currency these days and popular usage has given it somewhat the same meaning as ‘allow’ or ‘permit’ or ‘tolerate’ … nineteen years ago ‘I’, the persona that I was, looked at the physical world and just knew that this enormous construct called the universe was not ‘set up’ for us humans to be forever forlorn in with only scant moments of reprieve. ‘I’ the persona realised there and then that it was not and could not ever be some ‘sick cosmic joke’ that humans all had to endure and ‘make the best of’. ‘I’ the persona felt foolish that ‘I’ had believed for thirty two years that the wisdom of the ‘real-world’ that ‘I’ had inherited – the world that ‘I’ was born into – was set in stone. I ceased accepting, allowing, permitting or tolerating or being resigned to suffering there and then. Which is why I say to people to embrace death (as in unreservedly saying !YES! to being alive as this flesh and blood body) as a full-blooded approval and endorsement. Those peoples who say that they ‘accept’ … um … a rapist, for just one example, never for one moment are approving and endorsing … let alone unreservedly saying !YES! to the rapist.
So much for ‘acceptance’ as a viable modus operandi.
Bubs - 2. Harmlessness: This method promotes the importance of being harmless. However, the tone and the response to my boundaries have been far from harmless. I’ve explicitly requested for my journey to be respected, yet this has been ignored.
The majority of us are not actually free, therefore we too are still under the sway of the deleterious behaviours that manifest in the human condition. We try our best to be aware and avoid malicious behaviours but that will not always be the case. Additionally, your internal thinking and feeling attacked doesn’t mean that is the case in actuality. Words and language themselves can project meaning and feeling tones in the reader that were not something intended by the writer, I am pretty sure most adults can point to some experience where a family member, partner or work colleague has misinterpreted their text, email or other form of written communication with a form of negative emotion or different meaning than intended.
Every human has their journey, you can be an atheist, agnostic, spiritualist, pick a religion or make something up new or whatever, that doesn’t change, nobody is telling you how to live your life or what choices to make. On the same token, there is no onus on any of us to validate or appreciate your personal journey, we can’t guarantee it will have any significance, meaning or commonality we wish to share or discuss with you.
If you think this is a place to validate your individual journey then maybe this is not the forum for you. The intent of this forum is an interest in a very specific end goal. We have no interest in validating the end goal you might be aiming for and that is not meant in some cruel or malicious jibe, just getting down to brass tacts and being explicit as to what we are doing here. We are exploring that we have had these particular experiences such as an Excellence Experience or a PCE and the perpetual experience of such a state is why we are here.
Bubs - 3. Autonomy and Independence: The dismissal of my choices and autonomy is blatant. The forum seems to suggest that their way is the only way to achieve a certain mental state, dismissing my own experiences and choices as substandard.
We can always dismiss your choices, just as I dismissed religion, spirituality and belief in general before I had ever encountered AF. That is the flip side of autonomy, there will be those who use their autonomy to reject everything about you or things that you hold dear or value. It is a bit hypocritical to demand autonomy and complain about how others use their autonomy because their autonomous choices are ones that you don’t like.
I thought from your previous discussions you have never had a PCE, therefore you are complaining about there being only one way to achieve a state which you have never experienced before anyway, right? That sounds a bit absurd. Unless I have misunderstood or misread your previous comments. I think you have misunderstood the explicit nature of what the experiences being described point to.
As I have mentioned, there are definitely different ways of being happy and different ways of being harmless, as most of us have already explored and had such experiences of different types of happy and harmlessness, however these are not the same type of happiness and harmlessness defined in a PCE. The chilled highs and
vibes I lived with most of my life were great and made me chilled but these are not the same thing as the happy and harmlessness pertaining to a PCE, again the importance of explicit and clear communication.
Bubs - 4. Negative vs. Positive Engagement: The method emphasizes happiness and harmlessness, yet the tone has been decidedly negative, particularly when my perspectives diverge from the forum’s accepted narrative of only one method, all the others suck, and if you want us to help, it has to be. on our terms i.e. sign up and commit to the entirety of the method. (Apart from Claudiu, the tone has been of course cordial, but the harmful jab is ever present).
You are claiming an alternative method to a state you said you had never experienced, i.e. the PCE. Hence, the confusion and contradiction. English is not your first language I take it, right? I think that you are potentially not understanding what is being discussed and described, which happened to me too and I am a native English speaker because the nature of what is being described is something quite explicitly described and not always obvious, or easy to misinterpret or misconstrue.
Nobody is saying there aren’t alternative ways to experience happiness and enjoy life, but I guarantee that majority of these will be conditional, just as my previous means of enjoying life. [Edited as correction 02/01/2024]
Bubs - 5. ** Hypocrisy and Self-Righteousness: The claim that this is the only method that works in the world seems rather self-righteous and, quite frankly, hypocritical. Given the limited success stories related to this method, the confidence with which this claim is made is bewildering. Reminds me of the emperor’s new clothes.
Nobody is saying there aren’t alternative ways to experience happiness and enjoy life, but I guarantee that majority of these will be conditional, just as my previous means of enjoying life eventually proved to be. I also, went back to exploring alternatives after having a PCE because I wanted to know for myself whether love, creativity and other means could produce the goods for me and they didn’t, they all fell short. I never felt like I couldn’t do this, and on this and the old forums I never felt I had no means to explore life, I think those feelings are in you personally, maybe some aspect of what is discussed here frightens or perturbs you.
You are always free to explore some alternative happiness for yourself and others, however, that is not what is being explicitly explored and sought for here. You write just as I did, before having a PCE so I am pretty sure you have not had this experience yet and it has no experiential reference point for you.
You made the same mistake I made, attacking an experience I had never had and didn’t have an experiential understanding of. Again, I see people do this with depression, anxiety and panic attacks and I can see that people make assumptions and give their opinion on an experience they have no experiential understanding of. Luckily, my friend and people on the old forum were always very helpful and patient with me.
Every single argument you have raised is exactly what I raised in my initial reactions and rejection of AF, though I had some additional misunderstandings such as thinking it is spirituality in disguise, etc because I had never encountered anything like it. If you don’t have any experiential understanding of the PCE then there really is no common ground to start from.
The method has helped me overcome depression and anxiety now, and I am off medication for nearly 3 years now. Could it be communicate better and conveyed better, definitely. There are some aspects about it so simple that we overcomplicate it. Is it successful overall, not really but for those of us who have been changed by it or to have had a PCE, it is hard to not be pulled back to it.
No, you have misunderstood what the forum and experiences are about and are unhappy it is not what you thought it was. It is not dogmatic, it is explicitly describing something experiential, such as forums about anxiety explicitly detail symptoms people have had with anxiety, such as panic attacks, there is a pretty commonality as to how panic attacks are experienced, there is a commonality as to how EE and PCEs are experienced.
Your an adult, by now you must surely have learned that you don’t get to dictate what people think or feel about you. Neither can you control whether they will accept or reject you. You exist, and you will do what you do and not do what you don’t do lol. Me or anybody else on this forum (or in your life) accepting or rejecting you isn’t going to change a thing. Maybe, you never experienced life as an outcast or grew up in a monoculture where most people believed the same things that you did. I am in an atheist, I have worked with people who felt atheists should die, people refuse to work with me etc, nobody accepted my personal choices, but like a big boy I got on with it and accepted I can’t change how people will react to me and neither do I want to pretend to be something I am not to appease others. I accept you are a human being, as deluded and messed up as the rest of us. I will always listen to you and if you can demonstrate some repeatable and useful means of being happy and harmless that doesn’t require belief or self delusion, of course I would be interested but I am also not going to ignore those positive experiences from AF that have already changed my life.
You sound a little immature, as somebody who has rejected and come back to AF multiple times, I did so as was my prerogative but I didn’t need to make such a little stand, I always maintained respectful ties to the people on the forums and maintained open and honest dialogue, I didn’t hide behind any disagreement is malice, then nobody can question or challenge you in anyway and you never have to change but everyone else does. Don’t make me feel bad or I am not your friend lol. [Edited spelling mistake 02/01/2024]
You say, while dictating what people can or can’t say to you. As I said earlier, not everyone here is free of the human condition, certain people and things still trigger emotional reactions, you are not on a forum of free people only, you do understand that right? There is no belief about AF, it is not a belief being followed but a experiential means of living, i.e. having a PCE and it becoming a permanent means of existing and moment to moment we will fail and be triggered by emotions and beliefs but at least as are sincere about what we are experiencing and why we behave the way we do. Now, if you never had a PCE, it may seem like a belief that such a state is possible but that is true of any subjective experience, like a panic attack, for example.
In their insistence, these gardeners have overlooked the essence of gardening itself: the miracle of life, the beauty of diversity, and the joy of witnessing growth in many forms and colors. They’re so fixated on their way of doing things that they miss out on the larger tapestry of life taking shape around them.
The PCE is a state of direct experience of the garden and all of the possible things that exist in that garden are sensually experienced directly without any emotional manipulation throwing you hither and thither like a puppet on a string. You experience everything so directly and incredibly and utterly fascinatingly it is so direct. The means of getting to a PCE has no ultimate importance, the state itself is the means and the ends. Though for most, it has only been experienced in fleeting moments, some have been lucky enough to enjoy for extended time periods and even less are living it perpetually, once experienced it is impossible not to forget or be changed.
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We try our best to be aware and avoid malicious behaviours but that will not always be the case. Additionally, your internal thinking and feeling attacked doesn’t mean that is the case in actuality. Words and language themselves can project meaning and feeling tones in the reader that were not something intended by the writer.
Dismissal
On the same token, there is no onus on any of us to validate or appreciate your personal journey, we can’t guarantee it will have any significance, meaning or commonality we wish to share or discuss with you.
Dismissal
If you think this is a place to validate your individual journey then maybe this is not the forum for you. The intent of this forum is an interest in a very specific end goal. We have no interest in validating the end goal you might be aiming for and that is not meant in some cruel or malicious jibe, just getting down to brass tacts and being explicit as to what we are doing here. We are exploring that we have had these particular experiences such as an Excellence Experience or a PCE and the perpetual experience of such a state is why we are here.
Dismissal and misinterpretation.
Don’t need you or anyone to validate my journey.
Just needed the space to have my own journey, whilst I explored AF. And repeatedly told, no you can’t do both, leave, find failure, and come back to the only truth, AF.
We can always dismiss your choices, just as I dismissed religion, spirituality and belief in general before I had ever encountered AF.
Exactly dismissal repeatedly and egregiously.
That is the flip side of autonomy, there will be those who use their autonomy to reject everything about you or things that you hold dear or value.
Then clearly say it - AF or leave the forum. As you’ve said to me so many times. Dont act like happy harmless wannabe’s and say we’re here to help everyone. This is a cult. Richard is the one true god and all his words are gospel. There is one way or the highway.
It is a bit hypocritical to demand autonomy and complain about how others use their autonomy because their autonomous choices are ones that you don’t like.
Now gradually the tone changes from dismissal to rudeness.
That sounds a bit absurd. Unless I have misunderstood or misread your previous comments. I think you have misunderstood the explicit nature of what the experiences being described point to.
Rudeness gradually stepping up.
English is not your first language I take it, right?
Rudeness really kicking into gear.
Nobody is saying there aren’t alternative ways to experience happiness and enjoy life, but I guarantee that majority of these will be conditional, just as my previous means of enjoying life.
Of course, dismiss all other methods. You have to. It’s a cult.
Some chump spoke about angels, and Richard demoted his BF status. He retracted his angels belief, and suddenly he’s officially BF again.
Nobody is saying there aren’t alternative ways to experience happiness and enjoy life, but I guarantee that majority of these will be conditional
Of course, there is only AF. Dont hide and think but I said ‘majority’ and not ‘all’.
I think those feelings are in you personally, maybe some aspect of what is discussed here frightens or perturbs you.
What the actual fuck?
You are always free to explore some alternative happiness for yourself and others, however, that is not what is being explicitly explored and sought for here. You write just as I did, before having a PCE so I am pretty sure you have not had this experience yet and it has no experiential reference point for you.
Dismissal.
You made the same mistake I made, attacking an experience I had never had and didn’t have an experiential understanding of.
Never attacked a PCE
Luckily, my friend and people on the old forum were always very helpful and patient with me.
All I was asking for.
If you don’t have any experiential understanding of the PCE then there really is no common ground to start from.
Dismissal
No, you have misunderstood what the forum and experiences are about and are unhappy it is not what you thought it was.
No bub, all I wanted was what I can get on almost any other forum. Hey, we’re happy to help you explore.
Not this, we’re conditionally happy to help you explore i.e. AF and not anything else. OR leave the forum.
Your an adult, by now you must surely have learned that you don’t get to dictate what people think or feel about you. Neither can you control whether they will accept or reject you. You exist, and you will do what you do and not do what you don’t do lol. Me or anybody else on this forum (or in your life) accepting or rejecting you isn’t going to change a thing.
Dismissal. Asking for space for my own journey (which I don’t really need permission from you jokers for - but it’s AF only or leave the forum) and saying I’m dictating, controlling.
but like a big boy I got on with it and accepted
I will always listen to you and if you can demonstrate some repeatable and useful means of being happy and harmless that doesn’t require belief or self delusion, of course I would be interested but I am also not going to ignore those positive experiences from AF that have already changed my life.
Dude, I’m pretty much always happy. No matter what the feck happens. Hell, if shit happens, my manic defence kicks in and my mood jumps up even higher. Srinath used to be amazed by my chronic happiness before. Sometimes like now, I’m annoyed. But when I look back at the times I was annoyed, I get annoyed again, so it’s feels appropriate.
You sound a little immature, as somebody who has rejected and come back to AF multiple times.
What a rude little boy you are. But of course, you’re not being rude, it’s my misinterpretation, my oversensitivity, my immaturity, etc etc.
Dude, I’ve come back to AF because I thought it was a fantastic method. But was repeatedly told to fuck off and get tired of what i was doing and come back here. I kept coming back, mainly because of the spectacularly high respect I have for Srinath and his recommendation of the method (BTW he’s also exploring other methods - sorry to let the cat out of the bag, Srinath - they might ask you to leave too. Okay, the forum members might respect you too much, but if Richard gets wind of it, there’s your BF credentials down the drain).
,
I did so as was my prerogative but I didn’t need to make such a little stand, I always maintained respectful ties to the people on the forums and maintained open and honest dialogue, I didn’t hide behind any disagreement is malice, then nobody can question or challenge you in anyway and you never have to change but everyone else does. Don’t make me feel bad or I am not your friend lol. [Edited spelling mistake 02/01/2024]
Absolute randomness making no sense. Dude, apart from my last post asking for space (I’ve always been super respectful) - because I was repeatedly asked to leave if I said I wanted to keep exploring other methods, and I got annoyed with the lack of respect for space. Fuck validation - just let me make what you clearly feel would be mistakes.
I was thinking of coming here and leaving the forum, but read your (son of bob) post and I thought this guy’s being a rare decent guy here. BUT it quickly descends into the same old dismissive nonsense. And then the harmfulness and malice. I replied to the middle third, but got exhausted.
it’s absolutely impossible to talk any sense with you guys, and trust me I work in a job with some of the most difficult to handle people in the world (same job as Srinath). Pretty much all of them leave happy and happy to see me again. Maybe because they feel listened to and concerns addressed.
You just can’t talk to a cultist - there is only one way. And Richard goes on and on about harmlesness but he comes across as a petty, oversensitive, malicous guy who will cut you off at the slightest hint of disagreement (angel example again). And it’s unsurprising that most of you have turned into that.
This is the emperor’s new clothes.
Just like you predicted my failure with other methods, let me predict your collective failures with this method. In ten years time, there’s not a single one of you who will reach AF (two people who say they’ve reached it, are living on a boat. Most of the BF guys like Srinath (and other BF’ers I have heard of) are exploring other methods).
It’s a bunch of hypocrities. Saying happy and harmless, breaking it repeatedly and justifying it saying it’s freedom, dont have to act a certain way, people misinterpret it etc etc.
Even the journals are the same old whingey self absorbed shit. Very little happiness, or AOTMOBA.
Richard speaks about nobody on the forum actually following the method, and a forum post comes up about it and everybody backslaps each other saying no, no, no, we’re all doiing it. Sure we can do more, but we’re all doing it.
Another post about what harmlessness was after my last post and same old echo chamber shyt showing no insight. The meaning of the communication is the response you get. Show some empathy and insight. Dont go off again and again justifying repeatedly shitty behaviours.
But again, I’m asking for insight from cultists. Good luck with that, bub.
And yeah, no replies. I know insightless cultists will ignore this again with a bunch of hypocrites cutting and pasting sections of my post, but dismissing all of it with gobbledygook. Heck, you did it to Richard’s (actually super valuable input) that no one on the forum was following the method, so big deal even if you do reply.
Ten years time - let’s see where you jokers get. Do I want you all to fail - nope. Will you succeed? fuck no.
Since I’ve been repeatedly asked to leave the forum, I’ve got to (finally, thank feck for that because it’s exhausting communicating with dismissive, insightless peeps who have all the answers) take the ‘suggestion’.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
Not an outright dismissal, a partial one. Additionally, the rejection is more to do with those things we have known to have already dismissed such as the importance of belief, certain emotions, etc. Which from an individual perspective can be taken very personally. I see this a lot as an atheist, where religious people take my dismissal and rejection of their religion and beliefs very personally and feel it as a real psychic attack against them. What I am trying to say is that it is not always clearly the case, I am not meaning people harm because I cannot validate their beliefs and experiences. Not all atheists seek some harm and suffering upon the religious and spiritual because we reject their beliefs.
The criteria for what we validate and accept will vary wildly from one person to the next and be idiosyncratic, for me personally I can be quite difficult a person to have been swayed to the usefulness or validity of something. There is a high threshold for evidence and repeatability.
Of course that is the flip side of freedom and autonomy, I can dismiss and reject things. I reject Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and whole bunch of other things. I dismiss people’s certain subjective experiences and beliefs.
That is a part of life, people will reject and dismiss aspects of your personal experience. As people will dismiss aspects of my personal experience too.
This isn’t a forum about a generalised concept of happy and harmlessness it is about something explicit, the continuation of a PCE. It reminds me on reddit forums, when the forum subject is explicitly defined such as a Marvel comics forum and somebody wants to talk about DC comics or Image comics or the underground scene and moderators have to remind them this is explicitly a forum for Marvel comics.
Can you elaborate on the misinterpretation please, I would like to understand you better and it is not my intent to put words in your mouth. Your words seemed to indicate a need to have your journey be validated and accepted by us, but again it is very easy to misunderstood each other, especially as English can be a very ambiguous language at times.
I personally have never said you can’t do both but you will most likely find the path of AF diverge and contradicting with other possible pathways before you, that has been my experience and of many others in this forum. As you are on a forum explicitly dedicated to this end goal and full of people who have also gone on side pathways in spirituality, dedication to love and other pathways of course we are going to share with you and others how these were shown to be conditional and not in alignment with the goal of a PCE. Not to dictate to you what you should or shouldn’t do but the potentially save you time we lost on not achieving that end goal. Whilst you feel dismissed by us, are you not also dismissing my experiences and the experiences of others? What is your personal criteria for accepting or dismissing something?
You always have your own journey whether also involved in AF or not. I don’t know if you will find failure or not, and you are always free to have the space for your own journey. Whether or not your journey has personal value to me depends on certain criteria, its repeatability as a method/process, the absence of belief, self delusion etc. Again, this will be idiosyncratic to other people.
Yes, I am just being honest with you but maybe you don’t like hearing what I have to say. You can reject my choices and experiences too and take no value from them. That is freedom. I don’t care for what you believe but I will never infringe upon your freedom to believe what you believe. Does it upset you that you can’t make me validate or care for what you believe or have experienced? If you want to understand why I have rejected religion, spirituality and value to certain subjective experiences individually then I am happy to have that conversation and explain, but I notice most people never ask such explicit questions most likely because they don’t like the possible answers.
No, I am not going to demand you to leave the forum you are not some enemy, but why come to a forum that has an explicit intention and be surprised people are aiming for that explicit intention? I too had that initial it is a cult reaction too, again funny how similar feeling being reactions are. What proved useful to me was the repeatability, Richard or Peter or other peoples guidance is only of use in the same way somebody is an experienced carpenter or other skill can guide you in that skill because they have more experience with it, they are not some absolute definitive authority or rulers of your life. There is no worship required by me or authority over me. None of the individuals on this forum or who are free have had PCE’s have been forced to some single highway approach, they are individualistic and varied.
In English, being honest can sometimes come across as rude, it is a fine line. I am not trying to be rude or attack you maliciously, but if I see hypocrisy I am not going to not say something, I spent most of my life never communicating out of fear of conflict or upsetting somebody or being perceived negatively and I am no longer letting myself stay in such a bind. I hope you would do the same for me if you indicated some blind spot in me or noticed me being hypocritical about something. I come from a very plain speaking brutally honest English/Scottish family and my family members never shied away from hitting me with hard facts or honesty and I always loved that and have gravitated towards people who speak openly and honestly, even if it may seem harsh or crude to others.
No, I am genuinely trying to understand your viewpoint because it doesn’t seem relatable to me. Have you had a PCE before, yes or no?
That was a little cheeky but I was also trying to ascertain whether some form of miscommunication is going on lol. As even in our language it is easy to misunderstand each other because the words in English have so many overloaded meanings.
I dismissed most of these beliefs before exposure to AF and saw the arbitrary nature of belief. What do you believe exactly? It is not really clear from your previous posts.
Whether or not Richard or anybody else lives such an experience perpetually I cannot absolutely verify, what I do know regarding the experience and method is its personal usefulness to me, its repeatability and impact. The same way some people feel good from believing in a God or prayer, that works for them, for me it does nothing so I guess I was always going to have to explore different means of experiencing happiness.
I have had a PCE so I know such a state is possible, for me now it is whether or not such a state can genuinely be perpetually experienced or not is still an unknown.
As regards Richards rejection of that individual, there is no way he or anybody else can absolutely verify another individual’s subjective experience. If somebody seems to indicate something in alignment with something then it is only ok whilst everything they do and say is in alignment with how another can relate to the experience, when they say or do something in contradiction to that state then we have no choice but to reject the interpretation of it. That individual, in the previous forum that got wiped by Srid, also never answered any of my honest questions regarding the nature and manifestations of their beliefs, which were also idiosyncratic to the belief system and society that they were raised in, so I personally never accepted them as being free. By my personal criteria they are in contradiction to what I experientially know the PCE to represent and that personal contradiction was never resolved as they never had any future communication and I will add they don’t have to its their life and I am no authority over them, if they are fooling themselves or being dishonest that is on them.
I never like to say never, because I can’t and don’t know all, I am not deluded. However, I have lived long enough to see and reject much in this life with or without having had a PCE. Again, my personal criteria for validity is something outside of belief and repeatable. Which really does rule out a lot of stuff. Beliefs are arbitrary to me, emotions I know are malleable and unpredictable and can be changed and altered by medication and in the future who knows whatever means they might influenced by. What other types of experience might you be exploring or considering?
There are many cool and fascinating experiences in life and I am glad to have experienced them, the creative highs, being in love, and even the negative experiences and suffering taught me so much more about life and myself but I can’t deny personally that which has most value to me personally, i.e. a PCE.
Sorry that was a bit presumptuous of me, but that was really my initial reaction to AF when my friend introduced me. I was angry about it and dismissive but also perturbed and frightened. I guess a part of me was hoping you would have a similar arc that I could relate to but I can see that is pure projection on my part. I should have just asked you how does what you read here make you feel?
Then are you attacking the approach or concept of dedicating your life to having a PCE be lived perpetually? Or the value system of valuing that experience above everything else? Again, not trying to put words in your mouth just understand your explicit position.
Yes, but to validate what you experience and believe or to shoot the shit and be honest with you?
I haven’t asked you to leave the forum at all, ever. I am not that much of a dick, I hope lol. But the forum is explicitly about this particular experience the PCE and it being experienced perpetually and how we can achieve that. Are you trying to understand what AF/PCE is? What is the anything else you mean? I really don’t get you sorry.
Of course, I was just testing how insightful and self aware you are again cheekily but I can be a little cheeky at times. You words seem dismissive to me too but again that can be my own projection and interpretation and something for me to explore.
Yes, this particular forum has been created specifically for AF and previous incarnations were more open to just general enquiries etc and others were private but the decision was made to make this forum public (I personally would have preferred a private one), so inevitably we will get those coming who are curious about AF or even totally against AF, etc.
And again, I have not asked you to leave the forum I guess I am trying to understand why somebody who already seems to have rejected what it is about and doesn’t seem interested is hoping to get out of exchanges here. Or are you here just out of friendship and interest of what @Srinath has been involved with? I find you never really straight forward answer questions.
Then your happiness is conditional, because I have unintentionally managed to annoy you, right? And me being annoying is not the worse that life can throw at you. But being annoyed means you are no longer happy, right? Even if only for a short period of time. Nobody is not saying that annoyance or certain other emotions aren’t appropriate but that they are conditional. Whereas the PCE is unconditional, or more precisely there is just one condition, the abeyance of self which frustratingly is a condition you can’t have control over.
Yes, an almost 40 year old rude boy lol, again I think I am more cheeky than rude but again that’s a personal interpretation. I am being honest to how I interpreted your interactions, I could have kept it to myself or said nothing but I have done that my whole life, nothing ever gets anywhere. At least now you know what I think or feel. You are UK based too right? I am sure if we met up for a coffee and had a conversation you wouldn’t find me that rude, I hope lol.
I don’t think anybody was so harsh as to tell you to fuck off, and I wasn’t trying to make you feel that way. I was try to save you from wasting your own time or our time, if there was nothing of genuine interest, life is short and all.
I like Srinath a lot too, he is a very open and honest person and straight forwardly answers what he thinks and feels about things. I don’t find you as honest and straight forward, for example any of my questions regarding your subjective experiences like with ayahuasca you totally ignore and never answer, Srinath has never left me in the lurch or second guessing what he thinks or feels about something.
So the nature of what a PCE is and its perpetual existence, are my personal interest. If Srinath has found some other state or some other means to get to these states then I will always be interested in what he says, because he has always communicated openly and honestly with me and has my ear so to speak. As with anything repeatability and absence of belief and self delusion will be my default criteria.
Ok, that is clearer. I personally don’t find communication with you easy or straight forward or easy as I do with say @Srinath, maybe a clash of communication styles.
I am not trying to hurt you at all, I don’t know you from Adam or Eve. I am simply trying to understand you and when I am being dismissive it is for a reason not a slight against you individually but by the types of aspects I have already rejected in life which I have tried to be explicit about and why I have rejected those aspects. I too find you not easy to communicate with, that you don’t acknowledge or respond to certain things selectively.
I can talk about anything and everything, there is nothing sacred or unquestionable to me. You might be right I definitely don’t deny that but there isn’t much else that has any value or appeal to me personally. Nothing to me that seems in alignment with the experience of a PCE at least. Srinath doesn’t deny the life changing aspect of the PCE, right? And what is gleaned from that experience. If some optimised means of achieving freedom is found then I am all ears.
Of course, to be a self is to be self absorbed, as it the case with human beings in general. I am not happy and harmless, I am aiming for it and often falling short but I am sincere and honest with myself when I have done so. For me I can feel that fear so frightened that you now won’t like me.
I saw Richards input and agreed but my baseline was lower, I was aiming for getting to a more stable position mentally first, which has been the case of late and I am super happy to be at, because depression and anxiety really sucks balls. I genuinely didn’t intend to upset you or annoy you. Even if we don’t agree on aspects, I still wish you the best whatever you do with your life.
but I am sincere and honest with myself when I have done so.
Bollocks. If you were, that would be insight. Hallelujah.
For me I can feel that fear so frightened that you now won’t like me.
Gobbledygook. What the fuck is this even supposed to mean?
I genuinely didn’t intend to upset you or annoy you.
But there’s still absolutely no insight (forget remorse, or empathy).
Dude, you might feel I’m hard to communicate with, but I’m a super clear communicator, and balls to the fucken wall charm is one of my skills. I just get along with people. Sure, I annoy the everloving fuck out of them too. But most of the time, intentionally and happily so, and in a way that rapport isn’t broken, but often gets stronger. Because intentions are usually decent.
Even in my annoyed last email, I’m saying the most absolutely helpful things I can say. Basically open your minds up to the reality of what a shitshow this forum and you guys can be.
I don’t even know why I’m writing this when I said I’d be away. Maybe I’m enjoying being in the right and rubbing it in.
Same old same old like I said. Cut and paste my words. Some gobbledygook reply that doesn’t remotely address what I’m saying.
SPACE FOR JOURNEY.
PCE IS NOT A FUCKEN ISSUE. THEY ARE AWESOME EVEN IF I HAVENT HAD ONE.
DONT SAY COME AF IS.A WELCOMING SPACE AND IN THE SAME BREATH SAY ONLY AF OR LEAVE THE FORUM.
Insight man, even with shouting it’s impossible to get on here I know. But like I said, that’s the nature of cultists.
Lets all just leave each other alone, yeah. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
PS Ahh, now I know why I’m replying to you. Because there’s nuggets of a decent guy inside (and why I wont reply to Claudiu again). Can’t say it of too many others here maybe kubs for sure, and a couple of others. So yeah, maybe there’s hope for you yet.
@bub I’ve been contemplating what you wrote today and I have to say there is something there, I have been trying to put my finger on it. Your bashing of the state of the forum reminded me of some things that @Srinath has brought up recently too, around the time of the global warming discussion.
The fact is that for a few years no-one has managed to become actually free, there are guys who have been into this for 10 or more years and they are still neither actually free nor able to apply the method each moment again. This includes me, I first came across actual freedom when I was 18, then I had some time off but for the last 4 or so years it has been a dedication of mine and still no cigar, both in terms of actual freedom and in terms of feeling good each moment again.
I really don’t think it is for lack of trying either, and there is only so many times someone can link you to the HAIETMOBA article and advise to read it again. Richard was able to devise a method to get there and he was able to use it to become actually free but the replicability of the method has been extremely low so far. Sure you can say that maybe they didn’t sincerely want it etc but when so many people try and fail where do you point the finger?
Where you write that Srinath is looking at other methods (I don’t know the extent to which this is accurate) I am not shocked or upset by this, at the end of the day we are all here for a reason and it seems it is not working. The problem is that actual freedom is such a recent development that the numbers are very low, essentially we are following a method that was devised by a single person and which has since been successfully replicated by a very low number of people.
With such low numbers and such low replicability how can we have confidence that the current method is the most successful (in allowing others to become free)? The fact is that it has worked for Richard and also a handful of other people, but it is also a fact that many more people have tried since and failed miserably.
Which leads to what you mention about it being cult-like. I am starting to see the danger of this in myself, of the actualist identity, of lacking originality.
This is all kind of hazy at the moment still but there is something there. Like we are putting the horse before the cart, with the method becoming just another layer that has been assimilated into the identity. But it seems that there has to be something much more original in the individual to go all the way.
I had this thought today that kind of summarises what I am trying to convey (very poorly 
) :
I thought to myself that it would be the best possible outcome if being an actualist, the actual freedom trust and the rest of it some day soon fades into some obscure corner of history, of ‘what once was’. Why? Because the human condition has been eradicated, people live in actual peace and harmony and now what is the actual freedom method? Merely something that had to be devised to end sorrow and malice.
The goal was never to be an actualist.
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Lol, that made me chuckle my mum would always say bollocks if she didn’t believe me or siblings and she rarely sweared so had more impact. Not always immediately and in the moment but eventually the awareness and insight comes in. For example, when I have snapped and been malicious to my kids. But this is a limitation of awareness and self reflection, I am not going to feel extra bad about it lol. Sometimes the emotions push and pull us. However, if you have insight into the human condition you know there is not a little me inside my head that needs to be punished, it is the stupidity of blind nature that has let all of the shitty behaviours manifest, including my failures and shitty choices. So, if I have a blindpsot and am being malicious I guess it won’t be too much of a squeeze to ask you to forgive me. I am very much a work in progress.
Lol, I thought I was being pretty clear, I was explaining how the interaction has made me feel and what I noticed arise in me. Like that need to never question or challenge anybody, 10 years ago I wouldn’t even interacted with you at all, for fear or risk of some conflict or disagreement. There wouldn’t even be a conversation so we wouldn’t know what we even agree or disagree on. You’d probably like me more back then lol.
It sucks if I do something that makes you feel bad don’t get me wrong but its also not the be all and end all or that big a deal really, right? Maybe thats a downside of my having suffered physically and psychologically, I don’t really see it that big deal when a fellow human feels bad a little over some minor disagreement. There are worse things and states possible lol.
I don’t value human feelings anyway, which automatically makes me a dick I know. Some chemical reactions popping in your brain making you feel x, y or z, what if instead of feeling annoyed by comments they made you gut laugh or terrified that you couldn’t finish reading it, there can be any type of unpredictable reaction to me, why feel anyway about anything is what I am trying to get at.
It sucks if I have done something that hurts you emotionally because I don’t want to add more suffering into the universe but you know I am not responsible for how you feel ultimately either, if you choose to let me make you feel bad thats still on you too, for letting me have that power over you. But I also don’t blame you or somebody else if they make me feel bad. I use my insight to take ownership of my own emotional responses.
Some people feel bad if you tell them a fact that contradicts their belief, am I bad guy for that. Must I spend the rest of my existence apologising and seeking remorse for whoever I upset or hurt whether intentional or not?
I can relate to that myself too in life, in my relations with people but you still don’t answer straight forward questions like what you believe, what you have experienced, etc, so it is kind of nebulous as to what you think or feel on a lot of points and so its hard to really explore anything. Is it that you don’t want a microscope put under what you think and feel and believe? Much of my more openness in communication was influenced by seeing @Srinath’s posts because it resonated with me that he would never deflect from a question or his own thoughts irregardless of the group reaction.
Come on man, that is the human condition of course we know the forum and us can be a shitshow we are not that naive and your not the first or last to realise this. Hell, the last forum the owner just had a rage and wiped the whole forum and I at that time thought of the guy as a friend and somebody who might like me lol. You can’t even know how somebody thinks or feels about you, uncertainty abounds.
I don’t really view life in terms of right or wrong. Seems pretty over simplisitic to me. You mean right or wrong in some moral sense?
That is what people do when replying in forums, that is what I do when responding on technical forums or other subjects because I want to reference something or ask a particular question. If something isn’t clear then ask for further clarity, if you find something gobbledygook, again English can be ambiguous at times, then I will try and explain myself and that is how I communicate. That is me individually and has nothing to do with AF or the forum in general, I have been communicating like that in forums since the 90s before the very first AF forum came into existence, seems a common way people interact just we have annoyed/hurt you it seems, so you got to make it like its some AF collective group issue lol.
I never really care about such things as whether AF is a welcoming space. I guess to me its more about the facts and authenticity of experiences and their usefulness and applicability to me, more in a practical sense not in some does it make me feel welcome or invited. I am not a very welcoming person and I don’t speak for AF or some collective, I am just me. My default tends to be people are cunts until they prove to me otherwise, a typically negative distrustful view of people but I guess it protected me in life from a lot of narcissists or dickheads.
Again what does space for your journey mean exactly? Am I not allowed to question you or challenge you? You don’t want certain types of communication, it is not very explicit, apologies if being a bit thick.
If you don’t like me then have the balls to say it, dont hide behind some cultist excuse. Fuck that, I can think clearly and discern for myself thanks as I always have with the benefit of being raised free of any religion or spirituality. If you want to point out where you don’t think that is the case then do so lol. If I encountered something I didn’t agree with regarding Richards description of the perpetual PCE I would be looking elsewhere to figure out how the PCE can be extended. That doesn’t negate all the other aspects I have learned about myself and the human condition in my lifetime. It is disingenous of you to assume my life realisations are somehow dependent on being a member of some random forum.
I am sure there is. Theres also a side of me full of rage and fury that wants the whole world to burn out and die out, another reason to want to change I guess. See what a mess and bag of contradictions it can be to be a human being.
You might be onto what’s been going on for the past year, at least. I may be talking out of my ass here honestly, and I’m trying to piece together the puzzle for myself while talking about it, but it seems like a lot of navel-gazing and very little action recently. More than normal even?
I used to be a lot more perplexed by the analyzing going on among ‘actualists’ but it seems even I’ve become sedate lately and it’s completely anathema to what (I thought) was my explicit goal of AF and beyond. I’ve even felt compelled the past week to do a Felix (
) and just tell everyone to Just Fucking Do It.
In the end, dunno. This thread was spicy enough to wake me up a bit. While the discussions about the purpose of this forum have been going on since the inception it still seems like it hasn’t gotten out of the holding pattern, non?
Being realistic and getting back to the art of Just Fucking Doing It, the information should be enough by now. Anyone who’s had a PCE should know what to do. I don’t even get what’s stopping me myself anymore and it grinds my gears that I can’t get past the impasse. Actualist identity might be one of the clues.
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Oh well at least I am not the only one that has been going through it, great I can blame it on your guys collective vibes now 
Maybe this is some collective calm before the storm, just charging up for the end goal haha.
Dude, you know better than this. Don’t even entertain the joke 
I’ve used this as an excuse way too many times…
Ps. And get to it 
Ds.
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And yet that was fake news
As Richard clarified:
RICHARD: Update: In regards to the “Magical Mystery Tour” thread, Richard did *not * say “no one on the forum seemed to be practicing the actualism method” (or anything of the ilk) – obviously they are and this alone is immensely pleasing – as what he *did * say was ‘Nobody has taken-up the challenge to enjoy and appreciate being alive, each moment again come-what-may, for the remainder of their life’.
Global Warming
In any case bub appears to have struck a nerve with some here and it’s certainly worthwhile to ponder upon what all that may entail. Never was there an actualist successful without getting into some ‘spicy’ stuff. Not for the faint of heart & weak of knee & all that.
Cheers,
Claudiu
Okay, boyyo, you got me.
I’ve been dismissive towards you too, and not giving you straight forward answers. I’ve been cherry picking the most absolute bollocks I see you spout and pointing it out.
Straight answers. Authenticity. Integrity. I gotta walk the walk, before asking anyone else.
But if you do reply, then there’s a not so trick question for you at the end. Based on how you answer, I’ll make a choice whether to engage with you or not. Sounds like I’m being an uppity twat, but please wait till the end for the non trick test question.
However, if you have insight into the human condition you know there is not a little me inside my head that needs to be punished, it is the stupidity of blind nature that has let all of the shitty behaviours manifest, including my failures and shitty choices.
You know, I used to be really hard on myself for a ton of shit I did and mostly didn’t do but upon reflection I realise old bub made all the right right and right wrong choices and fair play to him.
I can’t even think of a single incident or choice in my past that didn’t turn out spectacularly well.
I now think, there’s no bub, never was, there’s just oneness flowing and the shitty parts, and feelings, are also importing to move the story forward. Just like a novel protagonists choices must be believable. (non AF non dual spiel if you can excuse me doing so).
So, if I have a blindpsot and am being malicious I guess it won’t be too much of a squeeze to ask you to forgive me. I am very much a work in progress.
Hah, fuck you Jack. It’s not going to be that easy.
That’s so like Srinath’s shitty way out of fuck ups. Hey, sorry to have offended you that’s not my intention.
Fuck the apology, who gives a shit. We want insight.
Where were you offensive, or rude - you clock that right, that’s ten times better than a throw and go apology or forgiveness neither of us really gives a shit about.
Lol, I thought I was being pretty clear,
No you fucken weren’t clear. In the words of the great Samuel L Jackson - ENGLISH MOTHERFUCKER! DO YOU SPEAK IT?! (now I’m being cheeky)
Is this even remotely gramatically correct?
How the fuck does the above gobbledygook relate to the below example? Dont answer. its’ a rhetorical question.
I was explaining how the interaction has made me feel and what I noticed arise in me. Like that need to never question or challenge anybody, 10 years ago I wouldn’t even interacted with you at all, for fear or risk of some conflict or disagreement. There wouldn’t even be a conversation so we wouldn’t know what we even agree or disagree on. You’d probably like me more back then lol.
I don’t really see it that big deal when a fellow human feels bad a little over some minor disagreement. There are worse things and states possible lol.
Of course you dont care. You say no harmful intentions, downplay the rudeness as a charming cheekiness, ask for forgiveness without having the slightest clue where you might have gone off piste.
Dude, whether I significantly hurt you, or mildly offend you, I’d still like to reflect and change for the future. Because most people do. But you clearly aren’t most people. Now, this is cheekiness. Yours was downright rudeness and stepped up gears on that too.
I don’t value human feelings anyway, which automatically makes me a dick I know.
ahh, again, of course you don’t care. But now you are being sincere, and honest and there’s no way I can dismiss you or say bollocks. The tinest smattering of insight. Hallelujah.
It sucks if I have done something that hurts you emotionally
Dude, you’re like one of those Alleluia motherfuckers (which is what my friend calls the jesus saved my life evangelists). How in the world can you cause me the remotest bit of suffering.
This thread (exhausting though it is to communicate with closed minded people who are ostensibly incapable of listening) has been the highlight of my day.
I might not have learnt jack, but wow, what a wonderful tangled web of emotions. Frustration, annoyance, disbelief, bewilderment, amusement, fun, and even affection (which I’ll address again).
But I also don’t blame you or somebody else if they make me feel bad. I use my insight to take ownership of my own emotional responses.
Most ‘normal’ people (we’ve clearly established you’re an outlier, you dont care if you mildly offend people, dont value human feelings, and really dont give enough of a shit.
The core issue if I may cut to the chase is listening, and hearing. Look how easily Kubs got me. Solid, decent, authentic guy.
Not your ignoramus ostrich head in sand ass high up in the air bollix.
Some people feel bad if you tell them a fact that contradicts their belief, am I bad guy for that. Must I spend the rest of my existence apologising and seeking remorse for whoever I upset or hurt whether intentional or not?
Look at the extreme levels of obfuscation here. I find it mind blowing how someone can be so deliberately obtuse?
Dude, what fucken fact? Which belief of mine did you shit on (I dont remember it)? You had one PCE and are nowhere near HAIETMOBA or happy and harmless and acting like a know it all. Not as bad as Claudiu, who actually had the gall to say he should be the closest one on the forum to getting to AF/BF.
But obfuscation point to be addressed - again, the complete inability to get the fucken point, misinterpret it, and fucken run along to la la land.
Who the fuck is asking you to spend the rest of your existence apologising? Even here, i said I couldn’t give less of a shit about an apology.
It’s insight and listening. Getting the fucken point. Getting me to go, fuck man, son of bub, you really got me. I’m powerless in front of anyone who truly understands me, as we all are methinks.
Not this la la land runaround - apologising and showing remorse forever? Where the fuck did you pick this up from?
It’s about knowing and realising when you hurt someone and why they felt hurt. Like I said, that’s ten times better than an apology.
I can relate to that myself too in life, in my relations with people but you still don’t answer straight forward questions like what you believe, what you have experienced, etc, so it is kind of nebulous as to what you think or feel on a lot of points and so its hard to really explore anything.
Listen dude, Kubs got me. He read the same thing as you.
So really you can’t make this about me anymore, we’re gradually getting to the crux of the matter - it’s your unwillingness to listen, hide behind words (cheeky vs rude), run along to la la land, make shit up as you go along (like you’ve repeatedly said you’ve projected), obfuscation, obtuseness.
all just one thing, and unwillingness to listen, make shit up and run along with it.
Come on man, that is the human condition of course we know the forum and us can be a shitshow we are not that naive and your not the first or last to realise this.
But again, you dismiss it. It’s not about it being a shit show, but understanding in what way it is a shitshow. Insight.
Not about apologising, but about what the heck you’re actually being a dick about.
I don’t really view life in terms of right or wrong. Seems pretty over simplisitic to me. You mean right or wrong in some moral sense?
English motherfucker, DO. YOU. SPEAK. IT. (hah, couldn’t resist going there again).
I mean right as in being in the right. As simple as it gets.
Again, this complete inability to get the point. It’s simple. I’m enjoying being in the right because I know you’re in the wrong.
The alleluia motherfucker thinks he’s found salvation, we all know he’s following one of the most murderous, sin filled religions the world has ever seen.
I’m likening you to the alleluia motherfucker.
I never really care about such things as whether AF is a welcoming space.
I know right, why be nice, welcoming, polite, kind, happy and patient, and all those things.
Okay, exhausted. Won’t
My default tends to be people are cunts until they prove to me otherwise, a typically negative distrustful view of people but I guess it protected me in life from a lot of narcissists or dickheads.
Now you’re projecting because that’s exactly how you come across. Like a narcissist, dickhead (youre too much of a dimwit (now I’ve crossed over into rudeness) to be a cunt) - who cares about right or wrong. I wont tell you about who cares, but I’ll definitely tell you who doesnt - People who score for psychopathy on the gold standard Hare psychopathy checklist.
If you don’t like me then have the balls to say it, dont hide behind some cultist excuse.
Dude, like I said, I’m only replying to you because I think there’s a nugget of a decent guy inside.
I take it back.
I actually liked you (even had a tiny bit of affection) till I started replying to this and when I hear repeatedly I dont care, I dont care, and making shit up, and obfuscation, I think you know what, this guy actually is a narcissist and dickhead.
Fair play, you’ve developed a narcissitic defense for your low self esteem and your frustration with the world and yourself makes you come across as a dickhead.
It is disingenous of you to assume my life realisations are somehow dependent on being a member of some random forum.
See, another fucken jolly to la la land. Where the fuck did you get this random idea from.
See what a mess and bag of contradictions it can be to be a human being.
You’re a fucken mess bro.
My trick question to see if I will engage with you was ‘what does space for my journey mean’ and I was actually going to give you the actual answer and then see if you would get the answer I already gave you. Can you see how ludicrous I believe conversing with you has been.
But alas, in the middle of my reply to you, like I said, I started to think you’re another Claudiu that I just need to ignore. I’m not going to get the slightest bit of value from you.
So if you do reply, I’ll be ignoring you from now on.
I’ve enjoyed today’s posts, mainly because it was high drama. And again, I’m so sure I’m in the right and enjoying rubbing it in.
Zero suffering and harm felt from my side.
On that note, when I wrote a couple of months ago, I was living with my parents for ten days on holiday and it was the worst ten days in years. I felt like I was in hell. And I thought hey, let me get some abuse and drama from people. And I thought who better to get it from than a forum of people who say they are happy and harmless, they’ll give me all the cheap drama I need. And you guys absolutely did. I wanted to be abused and where did I choose to come?
But exhausted, and I realise cut connections down with people who are exhausting, or at least keep conversations simple.
There’s a part of me that wants to leave, a part of me that keeps coming back maybe because I see some value in the method, another part of me that wants a forum of actually practising actualists who I can learn from versus keyboard jockeys.
But okay, one last reply to kub, or anyone who makes sense (i sincerely hope you dont, because I dont want to communicate on here because my ROI expectations (apart from drama and amusement (which I’ve had my dose of) are zero.
I really wish you’d fuck off from my journal Claudiu because you make my skin crawl.
‘Nobody has taken-up the challenge to enjoy and appreciate being alive, each moment again come-what-may, for the remainder of their life’.
Nobody being the operative word.
At times yes, but of course I can see how my actions can be dismissive to you too, you don’t owe me any answers but I thought we would have an interesting conversation about stuff, but for some reason I seem to really antagonise you and I find your answers unsatisfying and wishy washy I think, which is interesting, becasuse I have never really been in this situation before.
Oh well, genuinely I can’t relate to that at all and among most of the people in my life. Do you think that is luck or that you have done something that has enabled things to work out spectacularly well?
Important in what way? To you personally or universally?
It is pretty tricky, I have never really found myself feeling offended since I was like 13. It is like alien territory I know longer remember how to navigate. I am usually ultra polite and unconfrontational but I obviously felt comfortable enough to communicate whatever came to my mind with you.
Just don’t shoot me with an AK-47 for my bad English, is what we call council estate English where we write more informally, more so how we speak than grammatically correct, maybe you haven’t had the pleasure of UK council estate life yet lol. Maybe a second attempt lol. “I can feel fear arising in me. I am so frightened that you now won’t like me.” What I meant to convey is how I am genuinely experiencing this moment and interaction with you and contrast it with what I would normally experience in the safety of being mr quiet and nice, maybe a bit of verbal diarrhea on my side.
Of course I know where I can be perceived to have gone off piste. I openly challenged you without any regards to your feelings or self importance. In what polite English society would consider rude, but maybe I thought you could take it lol. But also because you too seem to have already discussed concepts of understanding self and emotion so I thought you would be less affected or impacted by what I say or do, like water off a ducks back.
You haven’t hurt me or offended me, but I would want you to see that those states don’t mean anything special, and its really hard to convey that I guess. Our values systems seem totally different I guess.
Of course you can dismiss it and not give a fuck, but at least there is no ambiguity and you know my position.
Well, I am talking hypothetically of course becasuse I am not you and I can’t know what I have or haven’t made you feel.
Ok, I am reading though as best as I can and if I am not getting you, thats my bad but I am trying to find some common ground. Yes I am closed minded to certain things, as all humans close their minds to certain things because not all humams believe and value exactly the same things, but I know what I have closed my mind to and why in most cases, of course there will be blind spots and unknowns.
I knew a part of you liked me lol.
I give a shit in the sense that I don’t want humans to suffer anymore than they have to, I am curious enough about people too but that doesn’t mean I value every aspect of their personal experience. It is hard not to be authentic to yourself and what has personal value and relevance.
I am being authentic to me, and if I don’t get you that’s authentic too. Sometimes people don’t get each other or see eye to eye.
Do you think you would write the same way if I had not said something you found to be rude, like I triggered you, but I am trying to understand you at least, no brownie points for that?
No, I am not talking about you explicitly but in life in general. I have a bad habit of going off on tangents sorry lol. I mean in life in general, you are forced into conflict with people even when not intending to be rude but when you share a fact. What matters more to you, the facts or not offending or upsetting people’s beliefs? What matters to you?
I am not shitting on your facts, that was me trying to elaborate on the tricky decisions and encounters we have in life, not communicated very clearly I see now. I know what I know man and in this universe I know that is not much at all in the grand scheme of things but I am honest about what I do and don’t know at least. I have had 7 PCE’s and not since 2006 and 2007. I am doing a lot better actually with HAIETMOBA and happy and harmlessness, have had more felicitous moments and EE’s. But not being in the thrall of mental illness is great, being normal again (which isnt great I know) but is so much better than being depressed and affected by anxiety. It is like having a second chance to live life.
Shit man miscommunication happens, I am not intentionally trying to be obtuse.
Yes, did I hurt you or not? The whole point I thought was I hadn’t hurt you and we both kind of know I haven’t really hurt you
You mean read, it is the written word not spoken (sorry I couldn’t resist that lame joke). I am not making shit up I am but pointing out where you haven’t answered or I don’t get you. As well as the reasons behind the choices I make and waffling at times I can see.
In the right about me not getting to the point. Yes, ok I think I can agree on that. Is there something else you mean being right about as well?
No, I know what its a shitshow because we don’t have sufficient intent consistently enough not to be in the thrall of being a self and the shitty behaviours that we are capable of.
Because I am not the spokesperson for AF, I am just me dealing with my shit for now. Maybe when I am in a better place I can be those things but I am not there yet. A reason I probably wanted it to be a private forum. I was polite to you at first message 33 on this journal, maybe something about being ignored has triggered me.
I don’t mean I absolutely believe your a cunt, I mean this was the coping strategy I developed living on a council estate as a nerdy guy living among tougher and more aggressive people. I can be a cunt for sure probably, but I can be a pretty sweet guy too sometimes.
I meant more on the Nietzschen philosophical sense there is no such thing as moral phenomena only interpretation of moral phenomena. Not in the sense of doing whatever I want to anybody without any regard foe their well being. For example, do you think it is ethical to eat meat? Plenty of people believe that you shouldn’t and its morally wrong to eat meat. There is not some absolute scale of universal right and wrong. I knew you were going to bring up the Hare psychopathy checklist lol.
I am trying to understand you though and I can live with you thinking that.
Ok, appreciate your honesty man though I thought a narcissist seeks more external gratification and validation, right?
I know man, I have always known and have always been honest about it. Plenty of people are and plenty try to pretend or hide it.
Again man, not trying to be intentionally a dick but appreciate your patience. If you ever change your mind I would like to know.
Ok, but what if i get some value from you? Would that change your mind.
People are exploring trying to be happy and harmless not that they are happy and harmless. I don’t say I am happy and harmless though but I am aiming for it and falling short. But that is my personal journey.
There are a lof of different people at different levels so i can get it can be unrewarding.