Supplementing actualism with conventional methods

Hey, I am not in any kind of debate with you :sweat_smile:. Nor did I think I had written some sort of “takedown” post as your response seems to indicate.

I am totally on board with the discussion of people’s difficulties with the “challenge” of actualism. The quote @Srinath quotes as Noe on Slack was actually me:

In a way with actualism it’s a double edged sword - on one hand, it’s better if the people come to it are well adjusted (which I wasnt). On the other hand, the people most motivated to leave the human condition are probably not going to be those who are loving life.

Given where I have come from with this (stuck in feeling bad), and knowing some of the difficulties and traps in getting out of it, I write generally about it for others and for my own clarity/journalling. It seems it has touched a nerve that I wrote to you or about you (and especially that I was responding to references to the past) but this was no challenge on my part.

A lot of your conclusions and statements were still phrased in present tense, hence why I responded to them as if they were still valid convictions for you (eg your conclusions as to why AF didn’t work, but mindfullness did, your beliefs about what is and isn’t stopping you). In any case, despite my questioning of some of those conclusions, my post was otherwise just general advice to anyone who feels stuck feeling bad. If you aren’t in that camp then I’m only glad to hear it Miguel :slight_smile:

I would say this group is here especially for this kind of questioning/sharing/vetting, at least for myself that’s why I write here. We aren’t in each other’s brains, we are just typing asynchronously: so misunderstandings of each other’s positions and moods are bound to arise, but it’s always a good opportunity to explore one’s own feelings whilst involved in that process. Ie. Did I threaten some part of your identity perhaps?

I always liked that Vineeto and Peter were willing to do that with each other: just put it all out on the table, with nothing to hide. Funny as it is to say, there is truly nothing personal about the human condition.

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Some thoughts about this without necessarily saying something final or definitive …

The modern mindfulness movement in the West, of which Kabat-Zinn was a prominent founder of, uses quite a different definition of mindfulness (‘awareness that arises through paying attention, on purpose, in the present moment, non-judgementally’) to right mindfulness proper which is a far more complex construct and involves subscription to a number of Buddhist precepts, doctrines and views. More on this here in the first part of the talk if anyone is interested:

Modern mindfulness and MBSR probably has more to do with learning to relax and not be reactive than to Buddhist meditation that I was doing back in the day, which was a pretty intense affair. So if @Miguel found that it helped him when times were tough ( i.e. it ’ resolved rather than solved’ the pain of the human condition like just about any other human activity including therapy or a chat with a good friend) - is that such a bad thing? Especially when one needs to defuse an emotional or situational crisis in which one has not been able to deploy the actualism method and not for the lack of trying?

At the same time Western mindfulness even if it has little to do with Buddhism, trades on its legitimacy and is promising at least to soothe the human condition, if not to cure it. Like fibre its one of those things these days that’s universally supposed to be good for you :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: There are references to research, a vaguely ‘Eastern’ aesthetic and no doubt many people benefit. But there are some gateway drug aspects. And it is more ideologically loaded than having a glass of milk or even therapy probably. You may pick up bad habits that will be hard to unlearn when you try and move from the mindfulness into the actualism method paradigm.

But if people are struggling to apply the actualism method, could more be done to support them? Could we get a bit more nitty gritty? Are we setting people up for failure by hiding the struggles and promoting the successes too much? Because ‘enjoying and appreciating the human condition’ is the actualism method it can make ‘not enjoying’ and ‘not appreciating’ an awkward thing to talk about and own up to. I do think at times we sound a bit smug over here and those who are seriously struggling with understanding and applying the method may feel silly to bringing up their problems.

The upside of having a lot of people on here now that know and can apply the method is obvious. The amount of accurate advice one can get is unprecedented probably. But when I first got on here, everyone was struggling to understand and apply the method. So that was talked about a lot and we all learned from each other. Of course misinformation was rife too, so that wasn’t good. Can be find a better balance?

The DNA of actualism if quite individualist and hands-off. You read the AFT and start applying it. Nothing else is needed, yada yada. Mostly I think that is a good thing. But perhaps there are those who would benefit from a more supportive, involved, coaching approach. NB: I’m not offering to do this :sweat_smile:, at least not right now.

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@Miguel like @Felix I too found this interesting. I don’t remember having anything like this. If I did it wasn’t very prominent and perhaps only towards the end. There can be all manner of emotional fantasies and constructions around self-immolation and it sounds like you were in the grip of them then. Want to say more?

@Srinath I actually related to this one and I will explain why. The way I see it is that at core Actulism is about changing myself, in the end it is about ending myself but even from the get go it is about actively challenging myself. Because it is my beliefs and feelings, my whole reality which stand in the way of enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive. So it seems with actualism from the very get go I am challenging the very ground on which I stand as an identity. This might not be an elimination of ‘me’ in my totality but even from the start by challenging my beliefs and values I am eliminating parts of myself. Bits of my reality are falling off and to begin this process it can stir up resistance.

This is in contrast to other methods which often endorse and gloss over the sense of self with good feelings or various beliefs dressed up as truths.

This is why when I read what @Miguel wrote I could immediately relate, not so much that from the start I was afraid of self-immolation but that from the very start I knew that it was me that had to change and this process would inevitably stir up resistance and threaten ‘my’ security.

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Yea I can relate to it as well. Reminds me of something Vineeto said to me when I told her I was feeling fearful/anxious as a result of some conversation she was having. She said that’s a good sign because it means I’m sincerely considering what is being talked about. That is to say, I recognized it would spell the changing and the end of ‘me’ and the natural reaction to this is fear.

Basically everything besides actualism is a ‘coping’ mechanism, just to help one deal with the awful ‘reality’ we find ourselves in. Actualism is the only thing offering a way out of it… but that is scary. So before leaving the comfort zone, maybe something can be said of getting to a conventionally happier place before ‘trying’ actualism…

That being said that sounds like the advice is to not utilize actualism, which doesn’t quite sit right with me. I think a better approach is to simply say look, let’s not be silly about it. Although exercise might detract from the culprit, ‘me’, it is silly to stop exercising if it makes ‘me’ feel better. So the advice rather is do go full on, do everything you possibly can to improve your mood, don’t rule anything out per se - exercise, socializing, dating if you are single and want a partner, going to parks, going for walks, going to the beach, eating out to break up the monotony of eating in, eating in to break up the monotony of eating out, get a dog (:smiley: ), etc. etc… live your life to the fullest… and while doing so consider what is on offer with regards to actualism and begin implementing it. And as you do so you will see what works and what doesn’t, what is a coping mechanism and what is meaningful change, etc., and then you can decide when and where to stop doing things and start doing other things, as you go.

The one caveat I would add though is to avoid spiritual practices, just because they are so antithetical to actualism. As Srinath said, modern mindfulness probably does have more to do with learning to relax rather than any truly spiritual approach… but in that case, simply learn to relax, count your breath, etc., without doing ‘mindfulness’ per se. Tai Chi and Qi Gong might be beneficial as it is exercise and exercise is good for you… but in that case just exercise without the spiritual trappings of Tai Chi or Qi Gong.

Just some not necessarily complete thoughts.

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EDIT: I’ll start a new thread because I’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent

Yes, I could say more although it would be off-topic here.

But one of the main threats for “me” from the very beginning was the love related to wife and children: not wanting to hurt/“betray” those who wanted/needed me to love them, and not wanting to lose their love for me (despite the writings of Richard, my reasoning and evidences of the harm I caused with my love, and that their love caused to me -and, in response, I caused to them in turn, etc.-).

@Miguel the fear of ‘self-immolation’ as fantasised by a feeling being, is a fear like any other. It really has no basis in actuality. But until it happens it can only be fantasised really.

It is really hard to know beforehand what human relations are like in actual freedom. PCE’s and actual intimacy experiences are usually too short to give you a good idea. After ‘I’ went - and with it all the love too, what was revealed in its place was something very caring, sweet, intimate and simple. And this is what I enjoy with my partner and daughter. It’s not at all like they are pieces of furniture or rocks. There is a lot of kissing, cuddling and laughter. It isn’t dry or mechanical at all.

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This is great to read^ it made me think it would be cool to hear about things a little more as to what an actually free life is like. I dont think actually free people yend ti share unless explicitly asked, so maybe we need to adk a bit more.

I know for me, one fear I have about self immolating is that I will just fall off the charts. Like…im a single gay dude, who will no longer have any propensity to seek relationship…Even though I know from peak experiences it wouldnt be possible to be lonely or something, imagined from this side it seems sad/lonely :sweat_smile:

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A new recommendation has been made here: Where is Shashank? - #7 by claudiu

Why?

My experience with Vipassana is mainly from the Dharma Overground, which makes use of the Burmese style of Vipassana. This sets you on a course to enlightenment via cycling through the nanas. I didn’t find this conducive to practicing actualism because it invokes a different way of being that muddies the waters. I had more success with actualism when I dropped the Vipassana practices (and this is generally advised, I believe but don’t have any sources to hand).

I don’t have experience with other styles of Vipassana but expect the results would be similar.

That said, I’ve actually found some benefit to a basic meditation on the breath for a short period each day. It helps with stress and some of my other health issues and doesn’t interfere with my actualism practice. YMMV.

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I tried supplementing tuning in to the purity by using an old phrase from my past and it is working quite well. I say ‘I am continually calming the restless scanning of my rational mind’ and my mind goes calm and I immediately tune in to the senses.

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breathing exercise for healing and relaxation:

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I just read this Book and I found it fascinating and it actually has improved my
understanding of Actualism practice. It may have seen it on one of the threads here on
discuss ?

The Mindbody Prescription: Healing the Body, Healing the Pain Paperback – October 1, 1999

by [John E. Sarno M.D.]

(I moved these posts here, @FrankN, to try to keep the other topic focused on what differentiates it from this one)

I am aware of Sarno’s work, and it is advisable to be also aware of critiques like this one: https://www.painscience.com/articles/sarno-review.php

I wanted to share a recent “discovery”. I have had feelings of physical (chest and abdomen) discomfort in the early hours of the morning for a long time, that are definitely emotionally related!
After seeing the video posted by @henryyyyyyyy( appreciate it) about sleep cycle etc. I realized that my early morning discomfort may be caused by Cortisol release at that time of the day. So I searched google for that and came upon a few references of using Magnesium Taurine to deal with this situation. I ordered
brand name “NOW Supplements”, Magnesium Taurine 1,000 mg, Double Strength, Nervous System Health*, 100 Veg Capsules for about $10 from Amazon, and started taking 2 at bedtime and some times added another one at ~ 4 a.m. , and i can report that this has been so very very helpful, I have not experienced the physical/emotional distress in the early morning hours for the past 10 days or so.

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Is this what you purchased? I can’t seem to find Magnesium Taurine but I found this:

Hi edzd, yes what you have shown is what i purchased and it is working wonders for me!

Thank you for confirming! Will order some for myself as I share your symptoms.

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