Shame about sexuality

[Sonyaxx]

@son_of_bob

@Sonyaxx

no.

I have the fear of rejection with initiation, which hurt many relationships because the women in my life have probably had this same belief as you. Like I would be annoyed if I didn’t pick up the signs and the hints correctly.

Yes it can be so tricky trying to figure out hints and signals! I definitely think most women will have the same belief

[Sonyaxx]

@son_of_bob

Interesting, more prone to blame yourself rather than your partner. Like how in your other post you mentioned being annoyed with Kuba playing games etc, and that need to feel like your enough for someone (paraphrasing here couldn’t remember the exact details).

I think if something is going wrong for me it is more helpful for me to look and what I can change for myself rather than try to change the other person. Obviously I can speak to Kuba about what I enjoy when we have sex and what I don’t enjoy. But it is ultimately down to be to sort myself out

[son_of_bob]

@Sonyaxx

Yes it can be so tricky trying to figure out hints and signals! I definitely think most women will have the same belief

It is like reading runes or tarot cards or something, esoteric and undefined. I always felt kind of dyslexic (can’t think of a better word) as regards interpreting women’s hints. I think this is why I gravitated towards people who are very open and explicit in their intentions, less ambiguity or confusion.

[henryyyyyyyyyy]

@Kub933 There is a lot in your post which I relate to, especially the drive to be ‘the ultimate player.’ A big aspect of that for me is that it is what sounds fun, or perhaps what has been pushed by the culture as being fun. In my experience as well it’s only been actually fun about 5% of the time, and has mostly served to create strife & hurt feelings.

I’m remembering back as well that one of my initial attractions to actualism was how Richard describes sexual freedom, I was thinking “finally! I will be able to be a player!” I didn’t know at that time that it was going to take something different.

I love that you included eating snacks as one of the things you enjoy doing, I’ve lately been finding eating various things to be such a delight! It’s its own form of entertainment.

@Kub933

The great thing is, and this is something that I am still exploring. Is that I can actually experience that thing which desire was trying to get to but could never reach - Pure sexual and sensual pleasure, with Sonya.

Ok everyone we can pack it in, now I am genuinely motivated to become free of desire!

Yes I’ve similarly suppressed desire with my partner, out of fear of love. That caused problems. I can see how the current approach of increasing enjoying & appreciating solves the problem from the opposite direction

@Kub933

the only ‘dirty’ thing about sex is ‘me’.

I was just thinking about this this morning, really the source of the bad feelings are ‘me,’ sexuality has nothing to do with it. I am eternally rotten and I know it, which gives me even more motivation to figure this out once & for all so I can get back to the business of enjoying sex for what it is.

@Kub933

So the way I see it now in myself is that it is not enough to say, “I am an actualist so I must get rid of desire”, because in the process I might end up preventing myself from discovering pure sex. It seems that the focus needs to be rather on peeling back the layers which prevent me from experiencing pure sex and consequently send me off to the fantasy realm which is sorta like a consolation for the fact that I cannot experience sex at its optimum.

Ok, this blows my mind.

I just realized that part of why I’ve fantasized has been because of thinking that I couldn’t experience pure sex with my past partners, usually because one or the other of us would run into some emotional tangle which I became lost in. I also didn’t know or didn’t want to admit that the ‘player’ stuff was actually getting in the way, as you say with having so many moving parts. It was also a situation ripe for jealous feelings.

I’ve definitely experienced something approaching pure sex before as well, I think in memory it becomes desire & love but again that’s just from my perch of not enjoying & appreciating.

@JonnyPitt

As long as you don’t create an energy around caring. Actual caring would have no energy to it other than pure intent. Trying to imitate actual caring would be difficult. I would rather just see how caring is a natural way of being when my feelings are settled and nice.

Yes @Kiman referenced the same thing, I think it is the way to go.

Right now I’m thinking that redirecting the desire is the way to go, this thread has been so great for developing more context to where I can see the issues inherent in desire for a specific sexual fantasy. Then I can change the desire to be for freedom, for actual intimacy (sexual and otherwise), so I can have my cake and eat it too - the best version of sexuality, with complete care as well.

@Kub933

This does seem like a stubborn part indeed, after all if a problem that has troubled you for so long can potentially be removed via a simple solution why not?
No need to invoke the slippery slope either you’d just be getting a wax

This does seem a bit arbitrary! What’s the difference between that and regular shaving or haircuts? For a little while I was looking like a bit of a mountain man, I thought it was cool to eschew the normal rules of grooming - after all, I was this free guy! But then I realized that I wasn’t as attractive to girls, and in fact I didn’t even really like how I looked. So, I’m back to being pretty clean cut now. As much as is convenient, anyway.

Also, I once shaved my legs (my legs are quite hairy) and I quite liked it! But it was a lot of work, so I stopped. Just a thought though

@son_of_bob

In an old job once I went to ask this girl out I liked and there was this section of loads of stands for hanging coats and hats and I leaned on one while I was asking her out and just caused this massive domino effect of knocking them all down! She walked away without answering me

Such an over-the-top example, sheesh!!
Yes I’ve experienced this many times, nervousness = weak knees = ineffectual in situations where we want to be the most effectual! Thank you Richard for discovering actualism… finally a way out of all this mess

@Kub933

she is probably thinking about the even hotter guy than me

She may well be! From my own experiences it’s when any nervousness arises in sex that the mind starts to wander off in a fantasy elsewhere

@son_of_bob

I am not going to dump you but now you have to listen to what I am actually doing with my life and what is important to me. It didn’t work out obviously.

Ha, this happened to me, too. I guess in that sense everything is working out fine because some situations we’ll put up with, and some we won’t.

@son_of_bob

Well put, I only had my first EE in sex this past week. It was almost like sensory overload, and I was so much more present and stimulated. I could never have imagined such a state, there is no substitute for the experiential.

@son_of_bob

I would feel guilty when a woman flirted with me or asked me out, even though I am not following through with anything and not cheating. Like I have done something to put out a sense of it is ok to make a move on me. Then feel guilty I am not a good husband.

Something that has helped me with this is the admission that we all have the capacity to be aware that others are attractive, everyone is always looking at everyone else’s butt. That is not a bad thing, it only makes sense - married or not. So we can just drop the guilt and enjoy it for what it is.

@Sonyaxx

An experienced virgin essentially

An impossible situation!

@Sonyaxx

It’s the “safer” option

This made me so sad! I don’t want to be the ‘safe’ option!

I think it’s difficult for me to admit that I may not be ‘so attractive…’ it makes me feel like such a sad sack. That is what all the cultural messaging is for those who are less attractive. More to explore in this for me.

@Sonyaxx

it also makes me feel almost smug I guess? Like I know I’m with an attractive man, and he’s with me.

I’ve experienced this as well with everyone I’ve ever dated, it comes with dating someone I find attractive. I hope other people see me with her. I suppose that powers part of the ‘down’ of not being with anyone.

@Sonyaxx

Most women will receive a lot of attention and sexual advances in their lifetime, wanted and unwanted.

I think this is a large part of the source of shame that I started this thread on, the unwanted attention. I get the reaction of ‘go away’ which I then feel bad about. I create some identity out of it, ‘unattractive,’ which then leads into the sad sack thing from above.

@Sonyaxx

A lot of women will hold out to make sure that the guy “proves” himself as a caring guy who won’t fuck her over.

This too is the other side of the desire from men aspect, as well as for men that’s like the sign of ‘accomplishment,’ having sex. So then women find themselves having to be hypervigilant so that label doesn’t get applied.

I think this applies somewhat to something @Kub933 pointed out earlier, which is that a lot of the time the labels are more thrown around as another power move than because they have any validity. A classic example is a guy chasing a girl, and once he’s rejected then he starts name calling. This only makes sense because the name calling is really about smearing, rather than any validity of if the name applies.

What this means is that either we have to be squeaky clean, or that any ‘imperfection’ will eventually be used as a smear if anyone wants to attack us - which is practically inevitable if one has any kind of social interactions at all.

@Sonyaxx

I still catch my self getting distracted when having Sex. For example getting distracted by the lava lamp or the picture above the bed. But when Kuba and I have sex now a days it’s much lighter and fun for me without the pressure on myself to act or behave a certain way and eliminating the belief that I have to orgasm for sex to be enjoyable actually mad me enjoy it more!

I wonder if this isn’t such a terrible thing, like it’s ok to be having sex and looking at a lava lamp. The lava lamp is part of the universe too! I’d be asking the question of if there is dissociation happening / if the looking elsewhere is a mechanism to get away from something uncomfortable happening on the emotional spectrum.

@Sonyaxx I’m finding some aspects of your posts very familiar, but some of it feels quite foreign to my experience! It just shows how the man/women dynamics are mirror images of eachother which can be invisible to the opposite sex. We only know our own side. It’s so cool to get to hear more about the other side, thank you!

[Sonyaxx]

@henryyyyyyyyyy

I think this is a large part of the source of shame that I started this thread on, the unwanted attention. I get the reaction of ‘go away’ which I then feel bad about. I create some identity out of it, ‘unattractive,’ which then leads into the sad sack thing from above.

I think it’s important not to take it personally. I know a lot of girls who would give the reaction of “go away” mostly out of fear and being defensive and a lot of guys will take it as them being “unattractive” when sometimes there are a lot of other factors that are involved that has nothing to do with how the guy looks. Obviously there can always be a better way to handle unwanted attention but I know most women will immediately lean to being defensive and standoffish because a lot of guys will not leave them alone if they are “nice” about it.

[henryyyyyyyyyy]

Yes that makes sense, thank you. It just goes to show how much vibes rule these kinds of interactions, there isn’t a deeper understanding of the source of the feelings when we just get a vibe. Soooo much projection.

I’m also putting together how much of a ruckus these identity dynamics between men and women cause, everyone experiences sexual desire but then we’re supposed to reach certain ideals which don’t match the feelings happening. Then people are constantly treading on eachother’s toes (as in unwanted attention) and suppressing their own desires (to avoid rejection, as well as to avoid being ‘bad’ or a ‘slut’).

And all of this game-playing is only because I’m not enjoying my day-to-day life highly enough…

[henryyyyyyyyyy]

I’m lucky to work in a healthcare environment where there are lots of cute nurses walking around everywhere, so lots of chances for self-examination and experimentation!

Just now I was walking in front of a group of girls and I could feel desire & discomfort setting in, I was able to reset to just enjoying what I was doing and not worrying about what they thought.

[son_of_bob]

One thing I realised recently about the stubbornness to change such as not waxing my hair was that there was another reason behind doing this.

I know the majority of woman in my generation seem to dislike body hair. I almost use it as a repellent. A way to stop myself from potentially cheating. The fear of not knowing whether they liked my body means I never reciprocate in those almost moments when a woman has shown interest in me. Luckily I have never met a woman who has a hair fetish lol.

Like I pretend that I haven’t desired or been tempted by other women during my marriage, but this is a total lie. The fear of rejection and the fear of losing my family unit are the only two fears that have controlled that behaviour. Not because I am some morally good person.