Okay so personally my past exes could be deemed as not conventionally “attractive” so I guess this is my first time being with someone seen as conventionally “attractive”
I admit at the start I was a bit worried about having to compete with swarms of girls but it turned out not being that way and I kind of surprised myself with when it did happen and I found negative feelings coming up. Mostly jealousy and insecurity. Most of it has faded now but occasionally those feelings do come up. I think it also helped that Kuba doesn’t really engage in “playing the game”
I think I also didn’t feel too threatened by it because I do receive alot of attention through Instagram and walking down the street so maybe if I didn’t that might be a different story. I think it also helps that both of us do jobs that are quite out there in terms of receiving attention. Me with my podium dancing and recently nude live drawing jobs and Kuba with the same (not the podium dancing😂) I feel like We both get to experience what it’s like to have our partners receiving quite a bit of attention.
I’ve also just spent the whole day with my girlfriends chatting about sex and what girls worry about with sex is pretty interesting. Most of it stems around overthinking during sex, insecurities about performing or being hot enough. Also a lot about being a “good” girlfriend by being the girl that will always be down for sex but at the same time “innocent”. An experienced virgin essentially
We also spoke about the countless amount of very “attractive” women we know in relationships with less “attractive”men
I notice that a lot of women, including me in the past dating less “attractive” men due to fear of constantly having to compete or the attention their partner may get from other women. It’s the “safer” option
However, we also did speak about how less “attractive” men often are nicer or have better personalities seeing as they can’t entirely rely on looks, they have to be nicer people to interact with. I’m guessing this is similar with attractive women?
What I realised this statement is that even the non direct attention of a smile, winks and other cues also trigger me. It doesn’t have to be full on flirting, attempting to chat up or date her for example. I experience jealousy as more of an internal attack of being inadequate. It is like more fuel to the fire.
Your lives sounds so alien to mine
Yes, I found one in my wife.
This is fascinating, a lot of cross over with men too. The ‘experienced virgin’ state I see as a necessary balance of this hypocritical treatment of women, if they enjoy sex and are promiscuous they are ‘slut shamed’ if they are too prudish they are then criticised for being ‘frigid/ no fun’.
I have seen a mixture of responses for this for attractive friends. Some like yourself not too much and others like unbelievable level. I have known people who felt differently about it too, some found it like an annoyance and others loved it and took full advantage of it.
Some people are both super charismatic and charming as well as good looking, stylish, wealthy and smart, got the whole package going on.
I think for me as well if I do see these things it also makes me feel almost smug I guess? Like I know I’m with an attractive man, and he’s with me. That’s another thing to look at for me. It also makes me feel good when people notice that he’s in a relationship with me. It adds a little ego boost
Although I do rarely see this, maybe I don’t notice
Some people win the genetic lottery, attractive enough to partner with another person who won the genetic lottery. This whole sense of self steps in and takes credit for it, feels like they did something, when really parameters outside of one’s control determined their degree of attractiveness. I mean there are subjective ways one can improve their appearance, change hairstyle, fashion, wax their terrible body hair etc. However, ultimately many variables are out of one’s control.
I have always been fascinated by the accounts of attractive people who got badly injured like burnt or when actors have worn fat suits for roles and seen what is it like to be treated differently.
On the attention front, even people just looking at my wife, no indication of whether that is in a positive/neutral/negative stance I still auto-interpret as some form of positive attention.
I would like to say I do notice that a lot of men are very lonely. Most women will receive a lot of attention and sexual advances in their lifetime, wanted and unwanted. As a fairly conventionally “attractive” young woman myself I have previously demonised men for a lot of unwanted sexual advances and attention. I didn’t realise that a lot of men were so lonely and lacked attention or intimacy from the opposite sex, whether they were attractive or not. I noticed that it can be so hard for men to have sex due to a lot of societal beliefs and pressures. Obviously both women and men want to have sex. Women can get sex significantly easier then men but they will still “play the game” due to fear of being labelled a “slut” I think a lot of women do actually want to have sex with men but there are a lot of issues that come with that. A lot of women will hold out to make sure that the guy “proves” himself as a caring guy who won’t fuck her over. I think it’s hard for a lot of women to have sex for sexes sake due to fears of labels, and fear of being used just for sex. I think a lot of women want caring and intimacy along with the sex. It’s funny because it’s the withholding of the sex which leads to men being so desperate for it that they also “play the game” for sex and put on a facade for women to sleep with them. It’s a whole messed up cycle
I agree. My sister would get a lot of attention. I think it has calmed down a bit more so now she has hit 40 but even some of my friends would try and see if I can help them get a shot with her, or request family pictures of her.
That is interesting, I like to do this thing of dismissing attractive women. Like not talk or interact with them, like prove I do not need to have to be pulled into the orbit of their attractiveness. Sort of tying into that exceptionalism, so exceptional I can not be influenced by an attractive woman.
Yes, it is true. It was the case for me in several patches. I am good at being a friendly person I am very comfortable in the friend zone even but not good at being intimate. Even with my wife it doesn’t come naturally.
Yes, I used to feel so envious about this. Sometimes as a guy it can feel like the birds of paradise where you have to this elaborate dance to try and woo the female and prove your worthiness and the woman might not even been that attractive but we have to do and prove so much more because the power of choice lies with them (not the case for more attractive men, they bypass this.) (video link of birds of paradise mating dance - Bird Of Paradise Courtship Spectacle | Planet Earth | BBC Earth - YouTube
I see this as the equivalent counter balancing force to what us men have to go through with the whole having to prove ourselves. It is not a smooth ride for either sex.
I have known a lot of guys who have wanted this too. And there are many stories where women have harshly rejected them based on some aspect of their appearance, performance etc during sex.
Yes, I always too autonomous to stoop to this. Like fuck you all then, I will be that 40 year old virgin then.
With my personal experiences around Sex, I was always able to get sex when I wanted with pretty much who I wanted and I did take advantage of that. I was basically known as the girl who was “sexually free” what was really happening was I was taking my value as a pretty girl with how many people I got attention from or sleep with. I was also recovering from sexual assault (when I was 13) which led me to have a very wierd relationship with sex. I went the opposite way you’d expect. I really threw myself into it and I was definitely not happy. I never really feared being labelled a “slut” cause I knew that was silly but what I was doing was definitely unhealthy. I wasn’t actually having sex for the sake of enjoying it and believed my only value as a person was for sex.
I’ve also struggled with over thinking during sex, getting distracted/dissociating and even saying no if I didn’t want to have sex. I used to always “push through” I was scared of being a disappointment or having the fear of them ignoring me saying no and continuing on anyways. I also had the belief that if I didn’t orgasm then the sex wasn’t good instead of realising there was nothing really wrong with the sex, it was me not being able to be there in the moment. Obviously there are certain activities within sex that I could orgasm from and some that I don’t. But eventually I realised that this belief of having to orgasm every time I have sex was also what led my to not enjoy it as much. As soon as I let go of that I was able to actually be in the moment and enjoy the sex instead of constantly looking forward to an orgasm.
I still catch my self getting distracted when having Sex. For example getting distracted by the lava lamp or the picture above the bed. But when Kuba and I have sex now a days it’s much lighter and fun for me without the pressure on myself to act or behave a certain way and eliminating the belief that I have to orgasm for sex to be enjoyable actually mad me enjoy it more!
There was also this belief that as a woman I shouldn’t initiate sex, I could hint that I wanted it. But initiation was a big no no. There was the fear of rejection but also I wanted to fell wanted and desired. Getting rid of that belief also led to some fun times with Kuba where I could actually initiate some fun sexy time
I appreciate your honesty. I have experienced being attractive, I was a good looking kid before puberty and rosacea derailed things. I sometimes think it would have been easier if I had never experienced being attractive, to only know being ugly or the current state of a mixed bag of reactions. The ignorance of not having had a lot of attention at one point.
This sounds a horrible situation, as a father of two girls is my worse nightmare too. Not that it couldn’t happen to my son either, plenty of stories of boys being abused too. I am sorry you had to go through this.
Interesting, more prone to blame yourself rather than your partner. Like how in your other post you mentioned being annoyed with Kuba playing games etc, and that need to feel like your enough for someone (paraphrasing here couldn’t remember the exact details).
Who doesn’t love a lava lamp!
I have the fear of rejection with initiation, which hurt many relationships because the women in my life have probably had this same belief as you. Like I would be annoyed if I didn’t pick up the signs and the hints correctly.
I think if something is going wrong for me it is more helpful for me to look and what I can change for myself rather than try to change the other person. Obviously I can speak to Kuba about what I enjoy when we have sex and what I don’t enjoy. But it is ultimately down to be to sort myself out
It is like reading runes or tarot cards or something, esoteric and undefined. I always felt kind of dyslexic (can’t think of a better word) as regards interpreting women’s hints. I think this is why I gravitated towards people who are very open and explicit in their intentions, less ambiguity or confusion.
@Kub933 There is a lot in your post which I relate to, especially the drive to be ‘the ultimate player.’ A big aspect of that for me is that it is what sounds fun, or perhaps what has been pushed by the culture as being fun. In my experience as well it’s only been actually fun about 5% of the time, and has mostly served to create strife & hurt feelings.
I’m remembering back as well that one of my initial attractions to actualism was how Richard describes sexual freedom, I was thinking “finally! I will be able to be a player!” I didn’t know at that time that it was going to take something different.
I love that you included eating snacks as one of the things you enjoy doing, I’ve lately been finding eating various things to be such a delight! It’s its own form of entertainment.
Ok everyone we can pack it in, now I am genuinely motivated to become free of desire!
Yes I’ve similarly suppressed desire with my partner, out of fear of love. That caused problems. I can see how the current approach of increasing enjoying & appreciating solves the problem from the opposite direction
I was just thinking about this this morning, really the source of the bad feelings are ‘me,’ sexuality has nothing to do with it. I am eternally rotten and I know it, which gives me even more motivation to figure this out once & for all so I can get back to the business of enjoying sex for what it is.
Ok, this blows my mind.
I just realized that part of why I’ve fantasized has been because of thinking that I couldn’t experience pure sex with my past partners, usually because one or the other of us would run into some emotional tangle which I became lost in. I also didn’t know or didn’t want to admit that the ‘player’ stuff was actually getting in the way, as you say with having so many moving parts. It was also a situation ripe for jealous feelings.
I’ve definitely experienced something approaching pure sex before as well, I think in memory it becomes desire & love but again that’s just from my perch of not enjoying & appreciating.
Yes @Kiman referenced the same thing, I think it is the way to go.
Right now I’m thinking that redirecting the desire is the way to go, this thread has been so great for developing more context to where I can see the issues inherent in desire for a specific sexual fantasy. Then I can change the desire to be for freedom, for actual intimacy (sexual and otherwise), so I can have my cake and eat it too - the best version of sexuality, with complete care as well.
This does seem a bit arbitrary! What’s the difference between that and regular shaving or haircuts? For a little while I was looking like a bit of a mountain man, I thought it was cool to eschew the normal rules of grooming - after all, I was this free guy! But then I realized that I wasn’t as attractive to girls, and in fact I didn’t even really like how I looked. So, I’m back to being pretty clean cut now. As much as is convenient, anyway.
Also, I once shaved my legs (my legs are quite hairy) and I quite liked it! But it was a lot of work, so I stopped. Just a thought though
Such an over-the-top example, sheesh!!
Yes I’ve experienced this many times, nervousness = weak knees = ineffectual in situations where we want to be the most effectual! Thank you Richard for discovering actualism… finally a way out of all this mess
She may well be! From my own experiences it’s when any nervousness arises in sex that the mind starts to wander off in a fantasy elsewhere
Ha, this happened to me, too. I guess in that sense everything is working out fine because some situations we’ll put up with, and some we won’t.
Something that has helped me with this is the admission that we all have the capacity to be aware that others are attractive, everyone is always looking at everyone else’s butt. That is not a bad thing, it only makes sense - married or not. So we can just drop the guilt and enjoy it for what it is.
An impossible situation!
This made me so sad! I don’t want to be the ‘safe’ option!
I think it’s difficult for me to admit that I may not be ‘so attractive…’ it makes me feel like such a sad sack. That is what all the cultural messaging is for those who are less attractive. More to explore in this for me.
I’ve experienced this as well with everyone I’ve ever dated, it comes with dating someone I find attractive. I hope other people see me with her. I suppose that powers part of the ‘down’ of not being with anyone.
I think this is a large part of the source of shame that I started this thread on, the unwanted attention. I get the reaction of ‘go away’ which I then feel bad about. I create some identity out of it, ‘unattractive,’ which then leads into the sad sack thing from above.
This too is the other side of the desire from men aspect, as well as for men that’s like the sign of ‘accomplishment,’ having sex. So then women find themselves having to be hypervigilant so that label doesn’t get applied.
I think this applies somewhat to something @Kub933 pointed out earlier, which is that a lot of the time the labels are more thrown around as another power move than because they have any validity. A classic example is a guy chasing a girl, and once he’s rejected then he starts name calling. This only makes sense because the name calling is really about smearing, rather than any validity of if the name applies.
What this means is that either we have to be squeaky clean, or that any ‘imperfection’ will eventually be used as a smear if anyone wants to attack us - which is practically inevitable if one has any kind of social interactions at all.
I wonder if this isn’t such a terrible thing, like it’s ok to be having sex and looking at a lava lamp. The lava lamp is part of the universe too! I’d be asking the question of if there is dissociation happening / if the looking elsewhere is a mechanism to get away from something uncomfortable happening on the emotional spectrum.
@Sonyaxx I’m finding some aspects of your posts very familiar, but some of it feels quite foreign to my experience! It just shows how the man/women dynamics are mirror images of eachother which can be invisible to the opposite sex. We only know our own side. It’s so cool to get to hear more about the other side, thank you!
I think it’s important not to take it personally. I know a lot of girls who would give the reaction of “go away” mostly out of fear and being defensive and a lot of guys will take it as them being “unattractive” when sometimes there are a lot of other factors that are involved that has nothing to do with how the guy looks. Obviously there can always be a better way to handle unwanted attention but I know most women will immediately lean to being defensive and standoffish because a lot of guys will not leave them alone if they are “nice” about it.
Yes that makes sense, thank you. It just goes to show how much vibes rule these kinds of interactions, there isn’t a deeper understanding of the source of the feelings when we just get a vibe. Soooo much projection.
I’m also putting together how much of a ruckus these identity dynamics between men and women cause, everyone experiences sexual desire but then we’re supposed to reach certain ideals which don’t match the feelings happening. Then people are constantly treading on eachother’s toes (as in unwanted attention) and suppressing their own desires (to avoid rejection, as well as to avoid being ‘bad’ or a ‘slut’).
And all of this game-playing is only because I’m not enjoying my day-to-day life highly enough…
I’m lucky to work in a healthcare environment where there are lots of cute nurses walking around everywhere, so lots of chances for self-examination and experimentation!
Just now I was walking in front of a group of girls and I could feel desire & discomfort setting in, I was able to reset to just enjoying what I was doing and not worrying about what they thought.
One thing I realised recently about the stubbornness to change such as not waxing my hair was that there was another reason behind doing this.
I know the majority of woman in my generation seem to dislike body hair. I almost use it as a repellent. A way to stop myself from potentially cheating. The fear of not knowing whether they liked my body means I never reciprocate in those almost moments when a woman has shown interest in me. Luckily I have never met a woman who has a hair fetish lol.
Like I pretend that I haven’t desired or been tempted by other women during my marriage, but this is a total lie. The fear of rejection and the fear of losing my family unit are the only two fears that have controlled that behaviour. Not because I am some morally good person.
but it turned out not being that way and I kind of surprised myself with when it did happen and I found negative feelings coming up. Mostly jealousy and insecurity. Most of it has faded now but occasionally those feelings do come up. I think it also helped that Kuba doesn’t really engage in “playing the game”
