Actually this is quite wonderful to contemplate, isn’t pain just another feature of a benevolent universe? I mean it gets so much shit but look at what it does! Normal life would be impossible without this super precious ability to experience pain.
And also pain does not mean suffering, like even eating spicy food can be fun and that triggers pain receptors or getting spanked if one is into that haha.
I’ve got a suggestion, pain gets so much shit because for ‘me’ it is inevitably associated with death. What is pain when death is no longer an issue?
Exactly, or a deep tissue massage (never had one but heard descriptions that can be classified as pain). Let’s not forget that pain, when not used in the emotional sense, is a word describing unsolicited intense sensation. The parkour, my shin at soccer (these two to an extent), chilli, deep tissue massage, these are solicited. They are socially/culturally tried and tested (to not cause damage) sources of solicited/desired intense sensation.
Pain is not pain as such. It is one end of the spectrum of tactile sensation. I dunno maybe I’m deviating from actualist dogma again. Don’t want to get bogged down in any language games. I’ve tried to make a point as best I could.
Yes this is exactly what I got from reading about nociceptors, they detect extremes of pressure, temperature etc and relay this information to the brain via the formation of pain stimulus.
Whereas ‘pain’ as it is experienced in reality is this whole affective beast in it’s own right.
Oh another interesting thing about pain is that the threshold for its activation can shift. Over lockdown I built a tyre punchbag in my garden which I would kick with bare shins.
Over time the same amount of pressure that would activate the pain response previously would be within ‘normal’ range of tactile sensation.
So pain is a predictor of possible damage, and these predictions can also shift.
As in, consider you become conscious, not knowing where you are, and are experiencing pain. It makes sense, without thinking about it any further, to do something to stop the pain, as a first step. Because pain has evolved to be the body’s mechanism of signaling something is potentially or actively harmful.
Right, this is no longer “a priori”, but a specific situation. Here you’re using pain in a sensible way.
I obviously don’t mean always avoid pain like the plague. Just that, without any more info, in general, pain indicates to stop doing that thing – or to start being careful about what you’re doing, etc.
Actually I’m not sure if I agree with this one haha! I think the sensible thing would be to investigate what the pain itself is signalling. I tore my knee recently and when I wake up in the morning and notice pain I don’t seek to get rid of it, I experience it as part of the healing process, it lets me know what condition the knee is in currently.
For creatures that cannot think and reflect upon their situation pain would be a on/off kind of signal, a blind response. Whereas for a human being pain becomes a piece of information, it’s like the body screaming at me “look over here”.
Another amazing perfect long (rainy) day. Got called by some family friends to do a BBQ for a few families. Spend first half of day doing that. Then went to see uncle who was emptying a rental property that needed to be emptied since my grandmother who lived there passed away two months ago.
I feel so warm and cosy and my eyelids are closing. I have had Claudiu’s response and everyone else’s responses in mind most of the day. So here we go:
I am definitely not in an ASC. I’ve been in them and remember the aching sensation of Love the endless flows of tears for humanity’s suffering. There is only joy here. Pure enjoyment, sensual delight and a constant awareness. There is no effort, striving, trying. none of that.
Tricky for who? I don’t think I have uttered the sentence ‘I think I am newly free’. There are thoughts (and there has been the thought that I am newly free) with a total absence of emotion and I have been typing them out here out for my fellow human beings here interested in becoming free from the human condition. If I am indeed free you should not be following in my footsteps at all. You should be focusing on none other than enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive. That will look very different for each feeling being and it will also look very different once free. If I’m not then it is each and every one of your responsibility to do with what I say as you please. Not mine. And if anyone has an issue with this and has a way to wield their power in this forum to suppress me then I will gladly step aside. So gladly.
This forum is not the AFT! I understand the need for that to be of top notch linguistic/editing standard even though most would say it’s a shitty looking site (I actually happen to like it). I would also like to add that I am not dumb. I did an IQ test in my early 20s and got 132. Now I know that isn’t near Marilyn Vos Savant’s 228 but it ain’t anything to sniff at. But I’ve always been quirky, eccentric, off centre etc. these qualities haven’t seemed to change (apologies Claudiu). I’ve always had an affinity for the Joe Pesci in my cousin Vinny type intelligence applied. Spock ain’t my cuppa tea even though I can totally appreciate such a character. I wouldn’t be here without the AFT and it’s high, high, high standards.
I can’t sense any ‘myself’ that can follow your recommendation to be highly discerning etc.
Safe for who? Have you seen what is happening in Gaza?
I’m not out to convince anyone. I thought people here would be interested in what I can share. I am not in an ASC. There is not a trace of ‘me’ anywhere. I spend every day trying to find ‘him’. I remember what he hates and I track it down and nada!!
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am just sharing notes, answering questions. It is impossible to be insincere. I am just writing here in what is now my journal. It is a journal now.
Didn’t I tell you not to apologise in my last post? Who is taking anything personal? Please paste a quote where I am taking something personally (since the event). This is the initial period of evaluation! Initial not because I am following a rule but because it has been 7 days since the defining moment. I have not been actually free since 1992. I have been alive since 1991 though lol.
Understood. Good. But don’t forget you have your PCEs to evaluate them by. Please do constantly highlight things that you think (your thought is still emotionally backed) may be indicative of not having succeeded at what I think I have.
You’re not by any chance on the spectrum are you? I only ask because this banging on about an attempt at humour (which was well received/understood by some at least) reminds me of some interactions I’ve had with a cousin on the spectrum and many with my father who we have always suspected is (but has never been diagnosed).
Very scholarly. I don’t blame you. I was where you are, trying to suss it all out by hyperfocusing on such details. Luckily I got sick of it and instead focused on enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive, knowing that I could be dead any second, I preferred to go for a walk, tickle my kids, dance some cumbia villera in the kitchen while making my favourite pasta fagioli for dinner, going op shopping, going to the backyard to see if I can break my soccer ball juggling record (433), watching movies with my wife after a long ass day etc. etc.
Here it is! Here it bloody is! Now I can make myself clear to you once and for all. My mood is not super elevated. There is an ever greater stillness. I can describe ‘my mood’ like an office or workshop that has had lights and machinery beeping, whirring, buzzing, clanking all day long with people walking up and down, making this noise and that, then suddenly everyone leaves and the machines are switched off and hushhhhh there is this subtle, gentle, warmmmmm hummmmmmm. It is effin’ delicious man! People don’t give a crap about me anywhere I go! No one approaches me and I neither ‘love it’ nor ‘resent it’. I can approach people if I’m curious about them with no problems however, and they respond from extremely enthusiastically to very uninterested which makes me gently chuckle.
My actual caring is me taking a lot of time each day to communicate this all to you in the only way I currently know how. Perhaps I will improve with time. Give me a chance brother. I mean I don’t really care if you don’t. OH NO I mean I do but it’s okay if you don’t give me a chance. brain explodes
I also highly recommend against continuing to stare at the sun. I don’t. But I can if I want to. Don’t need the flap thing on my windscreen when driving. I’d literally have to wear sunnies to attract sexy babes but don’t because I have no libido (yep incapable of getting a boner if it isn’t being touched/rubs on something).
I’d give you a hug if we were physically near each other.
Even seeing your reaction Paul, there is utter stillness and warmth. Cosiness. The thought comes ‘jeez the ‘you’ that inhabited this flesh and bloody body just over 7 days ago would’ve been swelling and bursting with pride to get a reaction like that from someone.’ but there is just utter stillness and warmth.
"RICHARD: I do find it cute that any body sans identity in toto/ the entire affective faculty experientially confirming (i.e., by direct, or immediate, unmediated experiencing and, thus, not via ratiocination and/or intuition) the actuality of the physical world – the world of this body and that body and every body; the world of the mountains and the streams; the world of the trees and the flowers; the world of the clouds in the sky by day and the stars in the firmament by night and so on and so on ad infinitum – is hence declared ‘batshit insane’ by an illusory/ delusory identity (an affective/ psychic entity) who has no physical existence whatsoever.
Hmm I should qualify then, by ASC I mean an actuality-mimicking ASC, such as the one that Tarin, Trent, Alan, me, Craig, etc., have been in.
Such an actuality-mimicking one doesn’t have these hallmarks you mention of love, sorrow, etc. I speak from experience!
Well yes, that’s what I meant by you thinking you’re newly free .
Well it’s an odd thing to say. Why not follow the lead and advice of someone who became free? That’s the whole point of actualism - to become actually free by using the techniques, methods, etc., that have worked for other people to become actually free. It’s an empirically-devised and empirically-validated method. It’s what we all do here, follow in the footsteps of those who succeeded. Enjoying & appreciating is following in their footsteps, because that is what worked for them.
Also rather odd. Tarin & Trent led many many people astray, away from actualism. They certainly bear some culpability in that. Of course it’s ultimately up to anyone to do what they please, but that doesn’t mean actions don’t have consequences.
In any case, it doesn’t change the point that if you aren’t newly free, but are in an actuality-mimicking ASC, nobody on here should be taking any heed of what you’re saying or doing — regardless of whether you share any culpability in that.
Dunking on the way the AFT site looks is somewhat odd. As well as indicating earlier that there is “actualist dogma” that you aren’t following (“I dunno maybe I’m deviating from actualist dogma again.”). Grant tried that also, dismissing actualism as a worldview or narrative vs the factuality that it is.
Also rather odd. In my PCEs I am aware full well that I exist, actually exist, as a flesh and blood body. It is actual existence as opposed to imagined existence. So it is the flesh and blood body that would find it sensible to be highly discerning (or not as the case may be).
Another odd thing. My suggestion to “wait it out” is to wait for further information to become available before making the conclusion that you are newly free. Here you are implying that to take this prudent course of action is to be perpetuating (via inaction) the violence and atrocities in Gaza. It is a strange connection to make, and indicates a pressuring of the other to accept you as newly free.
Why draw a connection between waiting before concluding that you are free, and the violence and atrocities happening in Gaza, then?
We are!
In that case it narrows it down from 3 possibilities to 2: either you are newly free, or you are very deeply in an actuality-mimicking ASC!
Time will tell, Gaza notwithstanding.
It’s not an apology . It’s a pre-emptive explanation that I am not seeking a personal vendetta against you or anything like this.
I’ve never been diagnosed. I wondered about it but it doesn’t seem to really line up.
I do like getting into the details of conversations, though – which I picked up after really delving into the AFT site and seeing how Richard and Peter and Vineeto did it. Highly illuminative!
I think the frequent listing off of stuff you do/have done/are doing/will do, as in a list of accomplishments, is also indicative of an elevated/passionate mood (albeit not being experienced as such) rather than apperceptive consciousness. I say it because you asked me to highlight these things
It reminds me of Alan & Bub more so than Richard, Vineeto, Peter, Geoffrey, Srinath.
That sounds great, and not manic, but whence the writing in a “hyper excited fashion” then if this stillness is the basis of your consciousness now?
While taking no responsibility at all with what you’re communicating if you’re mistaken about your being actually free?
Well it’s not surprising that if the first joke fell flat, this follow-up also did haha.
Again don’t really see the joke. You seem to be poking fun of me not understanding what you mean by saying you don’t care. Keep in mind I have experienced actual caring in PCEs before, I know experientially the topics being discussed here.
This made me think of the time I was coming out of my meditation-induced ASC. While in the midst of it I would remark upon many things that “oh those things should be causing me anxitety, but they don’t”. After having worked my way out of it, I saw in hindsight that they were causing me anxiety, but the feeling of it was being diverted away from consciousness due to the ASC .
In any case this is not dispositive, if you were indeed newly free then that seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to be experiencing and reporting haha.
This is a funny one because this is something I always wanted to have more of on the forum, the actually free guys describing their experiences and engaging in the threads. Because of the lack of this kind of interaction I always thought (planned ) that if I was to be free I would be interacting in the specific way that @milito.paz is right now.
Of course what this body will do is not up to ‘me’ but I do wonder to what extent various idiosyncratic qualities will remain after self-immolation, such as wanting to detail each and every bit about the condition.
I know that every time I have had a PCE or made any worthy discoveries there is this wanting to share and detail the thing. Would actually free Kuba continue exactly in this way? I don’t see why not, nothing in the PCE shows otherwise.
’
I was clearer and mentioned more than just those two things when you later described one of your ASCs.
Well yes. What is happening here is that there is the thought here that I am free and Claudiu (and perhaps others) doubt this. So be it.
My response isn’t odd; it’s based on my understanding of the diverse nature of individual experiences and paths to freedom on what is a very wide (and wondrous) path. Instead of discouraging learning from others, I merely emphasise the uniqueness of each person’s journey (how enjoying and appreciating pans out for them) What is wrong with that? This perspective underscores the value of individuality. Jeez, Vineeto can cry when a cop writes her a ticket and Richard can chase someone who stole something from his shopping trolley (oooh how potentially dangerous! he could’ve got stabbed) but I can’t express this?
In my experience, enjoying and appreciating isn’t following in their footsteps it is treading your own path.
If I’m not free, it’s fair for each person to decide how to interpret what I say. Blaming me for potential negative influences overlooks individual responsibility. However, disregarding my words solely due to doubts about my freedom overlooks their potential value. It’s crucial to assess the substance of what I say rather than focusing solely on my state of freedom.
I like the look of the site. I’ve always liked text based sites. Oh and there does seem to be a dogmatic line amongst those who identify/say they are practising actualism. I find this undeniable. But deeming actualism a dogma? I fully endorse every word they write on that site.
You just don’t get it. When you are in the PCEs and aware that you exist as a flesh and blood body (I was referring to ‘self’ that goes into abeyance) do you Step 1. find it sensible to do something then Step 2. do it? What are the mechanics of that process? Because if that is what happens maybe we should be questioning the validity of your PCE claims. For me it was always (and is permanently now) a spontaneous and continuous flow of action and thought.
This all seems to be some big intellectual exercise when I thought this place is all about exchanging notes about experience.
No. If anything your response can be said to be odd. But I’m coming to expect such responses now. What do you think I am doing? Running around preaching? I am living my life. Working, cooking, childrearing, reading, etc. I am not making any conclusions. I am sharing what I experience and what I think. Take it or leave it. You are making the extremely strange connection, suggesting that I am taking your suggestion to wait as perpetuating violence in Gaza when what I meant was what is unsafe about what I am doing? If you want to talk about danger look at Gaza. That is what I meant.
I didn’t you misunderstood me.
That is your opinion.
I didn’t think it was. I was referring to my telling you previously not to apologise as indicating that I am on a roll not-taking-things-personally wise.
They aren’t accomplishments they are shares of things I would have liked those guys you mentioned to have shared when I was still a feeling-being (yes I know you think I still am one). I never used to write. And I am starting to consider maybe just waiting for people to ask me stuff if they are interested instead of spontaneously sharing. Because this doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. It is at best good mental gymnastics for me.
That was before. The stillness is progressively greater. It’s the mental swirl I mentioned in another post that led to the ‘hyper excited fashion’. Like the body was trying to keep up with the amount of stuff my mind was trying to release into my post.
"RESPONDENT: Does responsibility and seriousness come with being carefree?
RICHARD: no, the utter reliability of being always happy and harmless replaces the onerous burden of being responsible … and actuality’s blithe sincerity dispenses with the gloomy seriousness that epitomises adulthood.
It is funny – in a peculiar way – for I often gain the impression when I speak to others, that I am spoiling their game-plan. It seems as if they wish to search forever … they consider arriving to be boring. How can unconditional peace and happiness, twenty-four-hours-a-day, possibly be boring? Is a carefree life all that difficult to comprehend? Why persist in a sick game … and defend one’s right to do so? Why insist on suffering when blitheness is freely available here and now? Is a life of perennial gaiety something to be scorned? I have even had people say, accusingly, that I could not possibly be happy when there is so much suffering going on in the world. The logic of this defies credibility: Am I to wait until everybody else is happy before I am? If I was to wait, I would be waiting forever … for under this twisted rationale, no one would dare to be the first to be happy. Their peculiar reasoning allows only for a mass happiness to occur globally; overnight success, as it were. Someone has to be intrepid enough to be first, to show what is possible to a benighted humanity."
Well let’s just say I’m starting to pick up on your sense of humour (or lack thereof). Noted.
I am literally doing it in memory of ‘me’ who I am full of appreciation for, for having made the ultimate sacrifice. And ‘I’ was ‘humanity’ and ‘humanity’ was ‘me’. So it is for you and anyone who finds benefit in it.
This whole thing though it reminds me of the exchange between Srinath and @claudiu in the global warming thread (if I remember correctly) and I wonder if these kinds of dynamics which have played out today are what Srinath was getting at - with regards to the issues of the forum.
@claudiu The way it looks to me, and I am prepared to be completely wrong about this, but it is as if you have taken on some role of being the actualism protector. Yet the ‘actualism’ that you are protecting does have a whiff of dogma about it. I certainly don’t feel the need to be protected by you from being ‘led astray’ as I am capable of living my own life even if I hit a dead end.
I can see why this kind of rigid stance may have been needed back in the day, to distinguish something so new from all the misinformation about, but I think at this point this kind of approach is hurting things, it’s preventing fruitful interaction.
Reading your responses it is as if you have turned logic and reasoning into an absolute and then you go on to call it being sensible. But logic and reason divorced from direct experience is just as susceptible to being distorted by emotion, to becoming a belief.
On top of all that you then carry the full backing of the AFT to support your logical arguments, and you wield them like a sword.
. It’s a pre-emptive explanation that I am not seeking a personal vendetta against you or anything like this.
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