‘Men’ have to do , ‘women’ just ‘are’

Actualism
11

I’ve also been trying to learn from these behaviors as I observe them in women. Like there is something admirable in putting yourself out there in these ways. It may be a path to greater intimacy generally. I’ve been trying to be more willing to be silly, needy, appreciative, and even concerned with my physical appearance. I got some face moisturizer and some teeth whitening gum :rofl:.

The desire to be wanted for who you really are seems so fundamentally painful and frustrating. The desire for intimacy itself seems more productive. There’s still something big missing though in my understanding of all this.

2 Likes
12

The problem is that ‘who I am’ is fundamentally a non-existent but desperately-trying-to-exist, unintelligent (as in birthed-from-blind-nature), self-centered, not-sensible, insecure, fearful, impossible-to-satisfy ‘being’. As such ‘I’ am really fundamentally… perhaps “unlikable” or “un-want-able” in some sense of the word. Who would want to be / or fully accept that?

Part of ‘love’ is trying to accept the other in this unconditional sense. But you inevitably come up against these quality in the ‘other’ and are thus never satisfied. That’s one possibility anyway. The other is you find yourself unable to unconditionally accept the other because of these qualities in yourself. And two choices there, one is to blame/resent yourself, the other is to turn it on the other. Either way it doesn’t work on a fundamental level, the foundation is shaky. Hence the saying that the key to a successful marriage is “don’t rock the boat” :smiley: . Cause if you start digging you will see the foundation is rotten (not through any fault of either person).

The key with intimacy is that ultimate intimacy comes when ‘I’ am gone. That’s why it can work. But you have to see that it is ‘me’ that gets in the way of it. The way to intimacy is ‘me’ getting out of the way, not ‘me’ trying to be wanted/liked or ‘me’ trying to want/like the other per se. Then once ‘I’ am out of the way you see that you are automatically likable and you automatically like the other person, you don’t have to do anything to like yourself/the other.

4 Likes
13

That makes sense and I like that description of who I am. Yes indeed fundamentally unlikable. Also yes I can see that the times where intimacy was most present were times where I was at least mostly ‘out of the way’.

From the position of being still in the way, what can “i” do? I think the options I’m stuck between are trying to have ‘no agenda’ vs. trying to have an agenda of pursuing the ‘purest’ of ‘my’ desires. Which seems to be the simple desire for intimacy.

edit:

In practice these options are like:

option 1 (no agenda): being attentive and interested in others, responding to what I see. Open to intimacy once they demonstrate interest. Open to reservedness and respectfully keeping a distance if that’s the vibe.

option 2 (pushing for intimacy): making an effort to connect. Inviting people to hang out. Choosing to push conversation towards our ‘private selves’ more than our ‘public selves’ whenever possible. Still responding to other’s level of reciprocation but with some intent of my own.

Also I realize I’ve moved away from main topic, willing to split off if it seems necessary.

14

Well, I now know what to say to get you involved. @Sonyaxx

Now for my views on each item of women’s fashion…

:rofl:

I like seeing the lines on peoples faces. The spots. The creases that a smile makes. I don’t enjoy that women wish to manipulate my instincts by trying to appear like they are all 16 years old carbon copies of each other.

Funnily, I read a study years ago which actually refutes this view of mine. It basically concluded that women primarily dress up for each other. That it is female attention and hierarchy at stake most of the time.

Another study showed that both men and women responded more strongly to pictures of attractive women, rather than men.

Female attractiveness is certainly leagues more valued than male.

I also am still sorting through the issues with my recent ex emotionally.

It really bothered me that her entire value system revolved around her attractiveness. As if that would last forever, even though her best years are decades ago now. How persistently this was her entire focus. Whilst ignoring everything else, the more she felt attractive, the more she expected “rat catching” from me.

Live and learn. As Claudiu pointed out in my journal, being with someone whose focus is control, really isn’t going to help someone interested in actualism.

Out of the blue, I am talking with another woman who may just value something more verbal and discovery based, rather than the cliches I have been pushing myself to live.

It was always my own sincerity which let me down. Not my exes. I was the one that persued this style of relationship with my morbid optimism (read: cunning) thinking I would change them.

Each person has the birthright to live and believe as they see fit.

15

That was her belief; that if she was attractive, good things would happen to her, that she would get to feel good. And of course part of that narrative had to do with someone else chasing & providing.

I was just noticing at work that there are loads of women here that seem to care only for their looks only superficially; their identities are primarily preoccupied with other markers of success, perhaps career success, competence; perhaps that they are a “caring, compassionate person.” It’s not the same game across the board. But everyone is doing something.

1 Like
16

While that is true, I think the original intuition also comes from something even deeper than the individual implications and efforts in the intersexual/intrasexual competition struggles. There’s another layer mentioned in evolutionary biology contexts about the cheapness of sperm and the expensiveness of eggs in humans and mammals, that later can turn into social constructs such as “women and children first”, as means for blind nature to perpetuate the species as a collective.

1 Like
17

I have really been going over the unilateral ending of the war the last 48 hours.

Despite the front of my amygdala be twice as large as a woman’s and devoted to attraction. :rofl:

What I am leaning towards is the identity aspects. Although it’s plainly obvious to anyone that the female of every species is hundreds of times more valued by nature than the male, each human has a ‘self’ and an ‘identity’.

As it is the ‘self’ that has to agree to change, to become in my case, conducive to allowing EEs , PCEs,. rather than my “absolute” value to nature.

As a male human, I am factually less valuable to the survival of the species.

As a ‘self’ I am equally capable of ending the human condition as anyone else. And that contribution is infinitely more valuable than a 1000 earth’s full of billions of species.

One human, actually free, is worth endless worlds of blind nature’s folly.

1 Like
18

fucking A man!!! I’m loving this new spirit Andrew!

1 Like
19

I am loving the fact the conversations here are sparking ideas towards better approachs in myself.

1 Like
20

The make-up conversation is interesting. @Sonyaxx, thanks for sharing your honesty on how Andrew’s comments triggered you. It is interesting to hear about the process and experience, it sounds like something quite fun with all the options available to you, like a form of artistic expression.

Personally, I have always liked both, women with and without make-up. I love the variety of women that exist, the different races, shapes, styles, I love different shape noses, freckles, people’s idiosyncrasies. I have always had this uncomfortable voyeuristic behaviour towards women, well men as well if I am honest. It is probably the part I miss most about not working in London anymore and not commuting, not getting to people watch. I would always appreciate that women went to such effort. I was always too much of a defeatist to make any effort as a male, never bothered to try and look stylish or sort my hair out nicely.

In my high school years and early adulthood (18-21), I definitely was holding on to feelings of misogyny and apathy towards women, starting to be on board with AF at 21 there was a lot there that I had to investigate.

I always find it hypocritical that I got so much anger and hate and cruelty from women as regards having bad skin (spots/rosacea) and yet all these women are not even showing their real face by hiding behind make up.
It was made worse that as my skin conditions improved, I started to have more positive female encounters as well. Rather than be happy about it or grateful about it I felt bitter and more that women were superficial, that it is only now that my physical appearance isn’t as bad that I have some validity and can be dated.

2 Likes
21

The irony is women are just as misogynistic as men. I saw a study on the word “slut” on twitter and women were using it as much as men.

Competition amongst women.

Yet, somehow, in a twist of cunning, women are painted as the “fairer” sex. Kinder, gentler, more loving.

I am really riffing on being less valuable to nature. It’s like a “get out of jail” free card.

What bee hive ever cared that one worker drone didn’t return to the hive?

It’s mass panic if the queen is in trouble.

I can, however, buzz off into the sunset, enjoy the flowers and never come back.

Nothing like a good breakfast of facts to make this all a bit easier.

22

It’s really breaking down the belief in the “nuclear family”.

The equality of a ‘man’ and a ‘woman’.

The illusion of monogamy, where what is there is convenient liaison.

Maybe that’s part of the reoccurring fantasy I have of being father to a daughter. One which brought immediate peace on a few occasions.

I feel the intrinsic value of the female, and my highest ‘blind nature’ achievement would be to have created nature’s most valuable asset.

Like a rod for my back, I psychically strive for what nature “wants”.

23
24

@Kiman

We may as well have the rest of this discussion here.

By your own account, you don’t need to work.

Yet, you work because it is required for a future spouse that you give her “security”.

This security you are seeking to obtain, is in a system you regard as a zero sum game. Worse than that even.

So, to spark some ideas for you; How does it feel to be groomed as a drone in a system without conscience for a security which can be in an instant; worthless?

I see your desire to make profit as an offset for the boredom (resentment) of working as rebellion.

You don’t want to be there, you don’t have to be there, but you believe you must.

Spot the investigation point. :rofl:

25

Yes, women can be very judgemental of each other. My daughters are still young and not teenagers yet and I can already see the beginnings of bullying and pressure within their friend circles. When they are older they will be judged on the sexual choices they make, fashion choices, make up choices and who knows what else. It is that area that makes me uncomfortable because I don’t know the outcome and can’t predict, I can only support them and encourage their independence.

It goes back to what @Sonyaxx had said on the other thread when talking about shame in sexuality about the labels women fear around having sex for the pleasure of it (paraphrasing here sorry). It is not an easy thing to navigate for women, all of these social rules and expectations followed by judgements, some that can cost them their livelihoods or lives at times in certain places and certain cultures.

I used to like the subversive choice to reject women, try and pretend like I didn’t want them and had no interest or value in them. Really it was because I hated the power they had over me. A guy could call me an “ugly bastard” and I wouldn’t give a damn but if a woman says it, it will play on my mind for days and weeks.

I don’t like that I try and pretend and project to my wife that I have no sexual interest in other women when we both no it is bullshit. Yet I will still find myself sometimes behaving this way on auto-pilot. Like I have said, I am my own PR/spin doctor, ensuring the perception of sonofbob is socially respectable.

When in reality, if I was confident and attractive enough I would have never ended up in a monogamous relationship.

2 Likes
26

Also just to riff on this idea a bit:

Why go for someone who wants you to have a job even when you have enough money not to work?

Why not…

  • go for someone who would be satisfied with the money available without any more work?
  • go for someone who already supports themselves and would want to continue doing so
  • go for someone who wants and likes to work and you pool your resources together?

Etc… is a big world out there. You don’t have to follow the stereotypical tropes

3 Likes
27

Which reflects the program that blind nature hands us, irrespective of our capability to fulfill it.

It’s not that a monogamous relationship is “wrong”, it’s rather that it’s the best of a bad situation for the majority of people.

Being programmed by blind nature to seek out the very best to reproduce with, and being otherwise incapable via the genetic inheritance we are born with to fulfill that desire, we are left with an uneasy compromise.

Monogamy evolved to provide the socially best solution, without removing the blind instinct.

Nature is a master of pasting over fixes, without changing the previous condition.

@son_of_bob , you were talking about something this in the science discussion.

The raw primal drive to mate with “the best” hasn’t been deleted because it still works, some of the time. The subsequent adaptions, like religion and monogamy, also work, more of the time.

Ironically, the later adaptation specifically vilified the previous one, without deleting it.

The virtue of monogamy is in direct contradiction to the previous model.

Hence the cognitive dissonance. The emotional confusion.

There is nothing wrong with monogamy. One can easily make a case for it being the superior situation (stable social identity) There is nothing wrong with polygamy/ polygyny, one could also make a solid case for it (superior genetic health).

One can only wonder what an actually free world would look like. Would people choose to continue the human species?

28

Yes, I agree. What is interesting for us feeling beings is that we really believe there is this “relationship”…this tangible connection between us and the other.
We try to have that connection with the other affective identity.

[Respondent № 88]: “A comparison between a relationship with love and a relationship with ‘actual freedom’, would be appreciated”.

• [Richard]: “Okay … first and foremost I am assuming you mean the word in a way more or less similar to this:

• relationship (n.): a connection, an association, spec. an emotional (esp. sexual) association between two people. ~ (Oxford English Dictionary).

RIchard: As a relationship is specifically described as being an emotional association between two people – as in an affective connection, union, bond (as in ‘the bonds of friendship’) or tie (as in ‘family ties’) – it confuses the issue somewhat to call being together monogamously with another, when actually free from the human condition, “a relationship” … indeed, in the first edition of ‘Richard’s Journal’, where I used that very word (albeit as a modern-day substitute for the word ‘marriage’), it caused enough confusion for some readers as to occasion my replacement of it with the term ‘an association’ when preparing the second edition.

Having said all that … there actually is no comparison between a relationship (either with or without love) and an association where there is an actual freedom from the human condition because the former, being within the human condition, is essentially an association with another identity whereas the latter is an association with another flesh and blood body.

I have often wondered this, finding myself exploring the “what ifs” but ultimately until it is experientially the case we won’t know. Everything about actual freedom, I realise now is experiential and not the hypothetical. You have a similar tendency to me to want to play out these what ifs. If only I was as good at getting to felicitous states as I was at exploring what ifs.

29

We can both leverage the “what if” tendency down to this moment.

What if I was thoroughly enjoying this moment of being alive?:blush:

31

Lots of great discussion in this taped dialogue, relevant to this topic.