Kub933's Journal

This is also a fun one to contemplate. Because in Actuality there is no separation however this does not mean that ‘one is all’ as Spirituality would have it.

Somehow the Actual always manages to be the best of all alternatives haha! The universe is such that there is no separation, there is only the stuff of the universe which exists and yet it does not mean that everything is some big cosmic blob! :laughing:

There is endless variety with firm boundries and yet there is no separation or any sort of ultimate division such as the one experienced in the real world.

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I maybe don’t need to say this, but the hesitation is what forms the ‘void/empty’

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These streams of thought are contagious, Kuba. This really is a fun one to contemplate. What’s remarkable is how when one starts playing with one’s perspectives one ends up playing with one’s experience. May I join in on the play? Note I won’t be trying to establish anything definite or final with these musings; none of what follows is strictly scientific, so there is liable to be errors. Point them out if you see them! This is not an attempt to mislead anyone (as if what I write is all that compelling). A suggestion to the reader: if what follows appears unbearably dry, irrelevant, or nothing more than intellectual masturbation, you may exercise the freedom to ignore it. Or don’t, it’s your call. It’s not required reading. It’s just the writer having fun with his perceptions and experiences. :thinking: Hm, so maybe this is like having a bit of a wank. :smirk: Anyways, starting from the impression you had of simultaneous “firm boundaries” with “no separation,” I’d like to change trajectory only a little, modifying the course just slightly. If that, in turn, spurs your thought processes slightly elsewhere, that’s fine. Hopefully we all come out a little bit disoriented.

I’d also like to add that this “type of play” draws inspiration from one of Richard’s “taped dialogues.” Decidedly my favorite:

Richard: For me there is no separation between the finger-tip and the brain. The finger-tip is the brain on stalks and I do not locate myself ‘out here’. To locate yourself somewhere – out on the finger-tip – is to separate oneself out from some perceived ‘whole’. You see, I do not locate myself anywhere in relation to the universe, because there is nowhere in particular to be. When one realise that being here is to be nowhere in particular, then here is anywhere at all … this is what infinite and eternal means. Now – and I have no wish to appear mystical – anywhere at all amounts to everywhere all at once.
Q(1): Mmm.
R: Put it this way: I am sitting here, on this couch. I can locate this body, locally, in reference to these walls; I am one metre from this one and three metres from that one and so on. The boundaries of this room give me a location, a position, a place in space. The physical infinity of the universe has no boundaries, so we are not ‘somewhere’ in relation to some edge. There is no edges to the universe, so there is no place ‘inside’ of ‘something’ – like this room – to be. The nature of infinitude is that to be anywhere is to be everywhere all at once, for time comes into it. Time, being eternal, has no beginning and no end. Therefore there is no middle. Just as there is no centre to the infinity of space, there is no middle in time. We locate ourselves in time, locally, in reference to yesterday and tomorrow. With infinitude, there are no reference points at all … either in space or in time. So if one says: ‘I am here. In infinitude, I could equally be there or there’ Now I am pointing to places in this room. Take the walls away, and this location does not mean anything. Therefore the phrase ‘anywhere at all’ gives the sense of a place in space and a moment in time … which is purely local. The actual experience of the infinitude of space and time is to be ‘everywhere all at once’, because all time and all space are right here … and right now. There is nowhere else but here and no time but now. Anywhere is everywhere and everywhere is anywhere.

Thank you, Richard.



Distinction & Discernment

“Firm boundaries” and “no separation.” I am sitting in a room. There is a laptop in front of me atop a small table. Looking at the laptop, I begin to pay attention to its individual components. I take notice of its keyboard. Looking at the keyboard, I discern individual keys. I’m also able to see how each key is distinct from the whole of the keyboard. On the other hand, I can’t help but notice that the keyboard is its keys, that is, there is in fact no distinction between the keys and the keyboard. Take away the keys, you also take away the keyboard; take away the keyboard, and there go the keys. It could be said then that the components and the whole are both distinct and indistinct from each other, at the same time. The hell?

How do we notice things? What does it mean to discern? To discern is to distinguish, and to distinguish is to see differences – that is, we discern a distinct object by seeing that it is different in some way from surrounding objects. Consider this: We are born into the world seeing jumbled blotches of shapes, colors and lines. To aid our survival, we are programmed to instinctively recognize and respond to a selection of these blotches (e.g., a milky tit). We come to notice how certain groups of blotches stand fixed together, or move as if united. At this point, we discern not just individual blotches, but individuated sets of blotches. Later, we learn the names given to these individuated sets of blotches, “Mama,” “Dadda,” “Ball,” “Doll,” “Green,” and so on. For the rest of our lives, we will continue dividing and uniting, grouping and individuating all the blotches in our world.

Different. Distinct. Separate. Those are words signifying the same thing. All referring to division. From etymonline.com, Different is from Latin differentem meaning "set apart,” from dis (apart)+ferre (carry), so “carry apart” or “take apart.” Distinct is from distinguere meaning “to push apart,” also containing the root dis (apart)+stinguere (prick), literally “prick/pierce apart”; and Separate is from separare meaning "to pull apart,” from se (apart) + parare (prepare, make ready). They all describe not just things but activity – setting apart, taking apart, pulling apart; actively dividing something up; taking something whole and splitting it. And isn’t that what we do when we discern something?

Discern etymologically shares the same connotations as the words above. It derives from the Latin discernere “to separate, set apart, divide, distribute; distinguish, perceive.” Discernment then is not passive, but active. It is the literal action of splitting our world apart. The exciting implication is that the pieces and things we observe around us aren’t “pre-cut”; they don’t start-off “separate.” The brain, detecting properties of objects in its environment, automatically discerns – that is, it separates – its surroundings along these “property lines” in a way that is useful or advantageous to it. Thus we are the ones actively cutting and dividing.

The Arbiter

There’s something arbitrary in all this. We (or our brains) are the arbiters, the judges, who are – automatically or manually – deciding, as a tribe or as individuals, what in our environment gets divided, and what it gets divided into. For instance, the European and the Eskimo can look upon the same set of snowflakes and separate that phenomenon in different ways. The European may discern seven types of snow, or rather, he separates “snow” into seven categories; whereas the Eskimo may discern fifty types of snow, or rather, he divides his environment even further than the European, and in a way that suits him. We discern (we separate) trees from forests, leaves from trees, forests from the rest of the land, and divide (distinguish) land from ocean.

Just as we have this “power” to separate, we have the power to integrate, to combine, merge and unite. We can organize, group and arrange. We can also “solidify” these arbitrary arrangements by marking them as “individual” (literally a non divisible). Something or someone is deemed an individual essentially because we say so. We could just as well, acting as arbiters and judges, divide something deemed indivisible into its constituent bits. Or conversely, we could take the individual, categorically arrange it with other individuals, and designate them as constituent parts of another larger individual, whose properties and boundaries we also define and delineate. We can go back and forth, from the individual forest to individual trees, and then vice versa, all by adjusting our criteria and perspective.

The Cosmos

Shall we apply this “power” to take a trip across the universe? We can achieve this by doing nothing more than playing with perspectives, boundaries and categories. All we need to do is be here, and contemplate what that means. Our arbitrary powers allow us not only the ability to define blotches, but to define the limits of this place. Here extends as close or as far as we want. Here can be the edge of our seat, the walls of our room, the exterior of our home, the boundaries of our town, the borders of our country, the exosphere of our planet, the fringes of our solar system, the outer spirals of our galaxy, and on and on, to the ends of infinity. Why not? By being here, in a snap, we can be anywhere and everywhere in the cosmos.

Point to yourself. Where are you pointing at? Is it your chest? Well, then that’s not yourself, that’s your chest. Or is it not the same thing? Point to the device you are using right now (pc, mobile or whatever). Did you point to the screen? Is that the device or is that the screen? Are they not the same thing? Now, point to the planet earth. Where did your finger land? Was it the floor, a TV, a car, a beach, a rock, yourself? Whatever it was, it was the earth. (The things that make up this planet are not just on this planet, they are this planet.) Same happens when you point to the Milky Way Galaxy. Wherever you point, that will be the Milky Way. Finally, point to the universe. Same thing happens. The universe is here, it’s there, it’s inside, it’s outside. There is nowhere and nothing you can point to that is not the universe. It has no boundaries.

We discovered that we have the “power” to take all these bits, pieces, and parcels we encounter, slice them off from the rest of the universe, and call it “rock,” or “me,” or “you,” or “truck,” or “planet.” We can slice out ever larger individual systems, complexes, and structures. No ceiling, no limit to how big a single “thing” can be or what it can include. In a sense, limits are entirely arbitrary, which means, in actuality, there are none. Boundaries are somehow completely fixed yet completely flexible.

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The way I would put it is — indeed there are no “boundaries” in actuality. The feeling of ‘me’ the feeling-being existing , creates an artificial perceived boundary / separation between ‘me’ and everything else.

HOWEVER, it’s not the case that actually ‘I’ as feeling-being exist , and there is no boundary between ‘me’/‘my’ feelings and the rest of the universe.

RATHER, what one finds is that ‘I’ the feeling-being am that very illusory boundary in and of itself. ‘I’ am the separation in and of itself. ‘I’ am a felt yet not factual separation.

When the lack of boundaries is experienced as an actuality - simultaneously one is experiencing a PCE and ‘I’ am already absent (and seen to not have really existed). (And it also becomes clear what “exists” refers to in this case :smiley: ).

And conversely when a PCE is what is eventuating one finds that there are in fact no boundaries being experienced - ending of ‘me’ is the ending of ‘boundaries’.

So it works both ways, it is an “if and only if”.

The mistake was thinking there is a ‘me’ that is then separate from the universe via a boundary, ie thinking there’s 3 things: ‘me’, boundary, universe.

Actually ‘I’ am the boundary, so it’s only two things: ‘me’=boundary and universe.

And only one of them is actual !

If one were to have done such a thing as to be experiencing one’s feelings & emotions as not having any boundary between them and the universe, and not seeing that those feelings/emotions/me in and of itself is/are an illusory boundary … essentially one would be projecting one’s ‘self’ to cover the entire universe, which would give the lived illusion of no separation, but one would in fact continue ‘being’ that very separation, still impossibly separate from actuality, still covering up that pristine purity with one’s ‘being’…

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Yes and maybe an important distinction here is between the word boundary and distinction.

There are distinctions in the actual world, as in I can distinguish between this flesh and blood body and that tree even when in PCE, yet there is no boundary and consequently no separation between this flesh and blood body and the tree.

Maybe my word boundaries was a bit confusing, I should have said in the actual world there are firm distinctions such as I am this flesh and blood body but I am not at the same time the flesh and blood body called Claudiu, even though there is no separation between the 2, as in there is no actual boundary between them that could ever be drawn.

The boundaries are made real by ‘me’, the passions that fuel the illusion of being a separate entity are projected out onto the world thus creating the real world, the world of lament.

Contemplating all this has been pretty exciting today, I see that in order to self immolate ‘I’ must give up ‘my’ very sense of being a separate entity, as ‘I’ am that sense of separateness though it means ‘I’ am also giving ‘myself’ up.

Then there isn’t anything left that could be called ‘me’ as in a localised ‘being’ that is removed from the rest of Actuality.

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@rick I just wrote a long ass reply with lots of specifics but I don’t think it really hit the mark so that’s deleted :sweat_smile: I am not quite sure how to articulate this but it seems to me that there is an ‘I’ skulking behind your contemplations and it is skewing the outcomes into something that seems to be verging away from actuality.

I think in order for contemplation to be fruitful (as in leading to a seeing of a fact) it has to be Pure. That means one must have a connection to that Purity in place before commencing any contemplations. Here is Peter’s description of Pure contemplation that I found :

"While contemplation has led to most of humankind’s amazing discoveries and inventions, it has also led to some of the most inane as in the case of purely intellectual contemplation – usually undertaken by men in Ivory towers, or mystics in monastic cells. Contemplating such questions as ‘Why are we here?’ and ‘What happens after death?’ has led not only the mystics but the scientists as well into passionate imagination resulting in elaborate fairy stories of meta-physical worlds and spiritual concepts. If what is factual and actual is ignored or denied in contemplative thought, then passionate imagination is the inevitable result.

"Pure contemplation, on the other hand, is the brain’s ability to make sense of the physical world as directly experienced by the senses, free of any imagination, affectation, concepts, traditions or beliefs. The universe is clearly seen as infinite, eternal and perfect with no ‘outside’ to it. Contemplation, when guided by pure intent and a relentless commitment to what is factual and actual, will inevitably free one from the grip of the instinctual passions of fear, aggression, nurture and desire that nestle in the bosom of every human being."

Do you take ‘me’ to be a fact? If so then ‘I’ will forever muddle any attempt at pure contemplation.

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I guess that really sums it up :grin: maybe there is a way to approach this though that will be a lot more than just having a wank, it will have the potential to change ‘you’.

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Although there is also this that you wrote, I would be really interested to hear if/how the contemplation changed your experience?

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This is where I think my approach would differ, I do appreciate that intellectual contemplation is often used to produce more questions than one had to begin with. However it seems that allowing Pure contemplation is the opposite of this, the intent is to see a fact, and once it is seen one ‘has it’, there is always a firm knowing as opposed to disorientation.

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Kuba - I don’t regard my motives for responding to your own contemplations as hidden, sinister and cowardly:

Skulk: keep out of sight, typically with a sinister or cowardly motive.

It was more done out of the spirit of communal fun. I’m fascinated by these topics and, given the direction your own musings were taking, I thought you (and others) might be receptive. But yeah, you got me. I’m a feeling being enjoying the contemplative process. Have you heard the expression “pot calling the kettle black”?

Isn’t that enough a reason to do something?

Now as pure contemplation only happens when self is not, then what does one do in the meantime?

Richard (2000): Experiential disorientation:
•This intellectual knowing provided the basis for experiments in experiential knowing: in my formal study of art at college in my twenties and with the daily practise of art thereafter as a living I experientially became aware of the human tendency toward … um … ‘frontal-ness’ (the face, the eyes, the nostrils, the mouth, faces forwards) which defines the typical human viewpoint and determines the classic world-view (forward/backward; up/down; left/right; in/out; top/bottom; front/back). By physically lying on one’s back one is no longer looking ‘up’ into space but ‘out’ into space … all the while intellectually knowing that people on the opposite point on the globe are looking ‘down’ into space whilst standing and ‘out’ into space whilst laying. Thus ‘out’ into space becomes as nonsensical as ‘up’ or ‘down’ … and this disorientating of the habitual mindset can be extended to other physical experiments: paying attention – exclusive attention – to this moment in time and this place in space as this form. This experiential attention becomes fascination … and fascination leads to reflective contemplation. Then – and only then –apperception can occur.
General Correspondence Number Nine

It is only possible for apperception to occur when an identity is being contemplative. If you disagree, that’s fine, but take it up with Richard.

Richard (1999): Considered contemplation combined with fascination leads to reflective contemplation. Then – and only then – apperception can occur.
Mailing List 'AF' Respondent No. 12

Richard (1998): Apperception – a way of seeing that is arrived at by reflective and fascinating contemplative thought . . . .
Mailing List 'B' Respondent No. 11

And if apperception doesn’t result, no worries. As long as it was fun it wasn’t a waste.

It’s akin to psychedelic experience. It’s quite literally mind expanding (once you begin wondering about where your mind actually ends). I mean, we took a trip across the universe by just being here.

If I get angry then is it not a fact that I got angry? That is, if I were angry, I would be in fact angry. Anger would be the fact of the situation. Denying this would be to deny the fact that anger was occurring. Do you deny the fact that you are a feeling being? If you do not deny the fact that you are a feeling being, then you have to acknowledge the fact that you (a feeling being) are in fact a fact, because it is a fact that you are a feeling being. Is that not a fact?

Look, if my post to you rubbed you the wrong way somehow, I apologize. It wasn’t my intention. It’s probably best at this point to disregard the whole thing.

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@rick Your post certainly didn’t rub me the wrong way so there is no need for any apologies, I like anyone and everyone posting in my journal so you’re welcome to do so anytime :slight_smile: There are just a few things about your post that don’t quite add up for me which is why I am probing.
Later when I get a chance I will re-write the longer more detailed post that I had which explained the exact bits that I had an issue with.

In terms of this one I will certainly say let’s disregard as there is already a very long post history tackling this one between you and a certain @claudiu, I don’t think I will bring this any closer to a resolution :yum:

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Ok so I just had another read of your post, I will write a short one and see how that lines up with what you are describing.

Yes we have the ability to arbitrarily divide or unite the universe into infinite components or systems.

Yet when talking about what is actual it does not make sense to talk in these terms. The actual does not rely on the decision of the group or the individual to unite or separate it, it already is.

The problem is that ‘I’ feeling ‘my’ boundaries to be real project this out onto the word, the unity or segregation that ‘I’ experience is a projection of ‘myself’. Irregardles of how intricately ‘I’ distinguish the word, separation never ends, ‘I’ can only make more and more divisions/unities. This is the only way ‘I’ know how to operate.

When ‘I’ vacate the scene the boundaries disappear and things are seen for what they are, this allows for a matter of fact seeing that this body is not the tree outside (of course) yet there is no way one could create a boundary between the 2.

There is the ability to discriminate but there is no ultimate division between that which is being discriminated against.

This does not apply to ‘me’ though, ‘I’ feel forever separated and no matter how intricately ‘I’ distinguish ‘myself’ or the world out there, ‘I’ will never bridge that separation. To try to do this is to head in the direction of becoming one with the universe.

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I must have misinterpreted or incompletely interpreted @rick’s original post, as I don’t quite understand what Rick said that merited your and @claudiu’s posts… They are obviously opposites/divergent from Rick’s post, but I fail to see where Rick said what merited your comments/responses.

It was clearly a “Rick-like” post (written to kick the board around, provoke, make us think, etc.), but I didn’t perceive that he said anything essentially different than what had been said; so I must be kind of lost…

If you can/want to, it would be helpful if you could summarize/point out what specifically originated this back and forth.

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OK so the main thing which might clarify what it is that I am pointing to is mentioned in the ASA article - Attentiveness And Sensuousness And Apperceptiveness

The bit I am specifically referring to is the following - This moment of soft, ungathered sensuosity – apperceptiveness – contains a vast understanding, an utter cognisance, that is lost as soon as one adjusts one’s mind to accommodate the feeling-tone … and subverts the crystal-clear objectivity into an ontological ‘being’ … a connotative ‘thing-in-itself’

My initial post was regarding the boundries as experienced in the real world and how in actuality there is no such boundries however there is still the ability to distinguish and discriminate.

It appears that what @rick is attempting to do is to use a more general intellectual probing of the topic surrounding distinctions, as you mentioned @Miguel to provoke thought, make us think etc.

However in that sense @rick’s post does not stay relevant to the topic at hand. Because the crux of it all is not to explore in just how many ways we can arbitarily separate or unite the universe via our minds, this keeps the discussion within the terms of life as experienced in the real world.
My main intent is to observe the fundamental error in perception which arises out of ‘being’ ie - "and subverts the crystal-clear objectivity into an ontological ‘being’ … a connotative ‘thing-in-itself’"

The point being that it does not matter wether a European has 1 word for snow and the Inuit has 7, because the very action of subverting pure perception into an ontological ‘being’ is still taking place, it is just that this has now more ways to divide and more ways to unite. But fundamentally nothing has changed.

So I guess my main question for you @rick would be wether you are looking to have a intellectual probing into the various ways in which we distinguish/unite the world via our minds or wether you are interested in uncovering that which skulks behind and causes the confusion in the first place? My assumption was that it was the latter which I think may be the reason for the apparent conflict in the first place.

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Thanks!
Your words reinforce my affinity for the old “Reader’s Digest” :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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The thrust of Rick’s post is that discernment / distinction is ultimately arbitrary and that it is ultimately up to us as humans per se to say what is what, what delineates one thing from another.

This might appear superficially correct, but it’s clear what he is getting at in the context of his other posts - namely he is making the case that ultimately any distinction between ‘me’ as a feeling-being, and the universe itself, is equally arbitrary / equally up to ‘humans’ to make. In Rick’s understanding, Richard and the rest of us are arbitrarily labelling ‘me’ as feeling being / feelings as ‘not actual’ / not pure / not existing etc., while in fact there is no such distinction to be found in the universe itself.

The critical mistake Rick is making here, which for example Grant also made, is that he is taking himself to be the ultimate arbiter of what is what, instead of the PCE which is entirely outside of ‘him’ and/or a connection to that purity experienced in the PCE via pure intent.

As Kuba put it well, in order for the contemplation to be fruitful it has to be pure, one must have a connection to that purity in place… With the PCE firmly in mind it becomes clear that the distinction between ‘me’ and the universe is not arbitrary / is not up to ‘me’, but rather is simply a matter of what-is-the-case. And it doesn’t matter whether Claudiu says it, or Kuba says it, or whether nobody says it at all – it doesn’t change the fact of the matter (i.e. it matters not whether any human is making any distinction – it remains to be the case, just as a rock is different from water whether a human is around to witness it and think about it or not).

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… Yeah …

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Yes what @claudiu describes also sums up what I am getting at very well. @rick My intent is not for this to come across as bashing you for just trying to have some fun with contemplation. I would think the reason why were are all here on this forum is to become actually free of the human condition, to actually do it. So probing and questioning these things is not just about intellectual masturbation or one-upmanship but that there is benefit to be gained for all by getting to the bottom of these things, by finding out the facts.

I was always hesitant to engage in these sort of discussions until that 25 or so minute PCE that happened for me directly after reading and contemplating @rick’s and @claudiu’s back and forth thread - Drawing the line between feeling and fact

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omg awesome!! I didn’t know , or maybe knew and forgot, that that resulted in a PCE for you. That means it was worth it :smile:

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haha yeah you must have forgotten because you replied with something similar at the time, this was the post - Drawing the line between feeling and fact - #78 by Kub933

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