Hunterad's journal

Journals
61

August report

Had a nice chat with Andrew and Henry last night. Main topic we discussed that aligns with where im at is vulnerability. I’ve been exploring what it is to be as vulnerable as possible. This has meant seeking to fully feel anything that comes up and to give ‘merit’ to the things that I want. Previously I was more ‘invulnerable’ by choosing to always remain passive and not seek things that i desired, especially intimacy with people. Recently I’ve been more frequently reaching out, putting myself out there, and making my private wishes into public actions. In the most pragmatic terms this has meant simply asking people if they want to hang out, seemingly a small thing but actually a big change for me. Additionally in situations where I am invited to anything, I am tending to almost always say yes rather than saying no due to an assumption that I was only being invited out of courtesy rather than actual interest.

All this is putting me in a position where I can be rejected by people, previously I was essentially rejecting myself, thus allowing me to maintain an illusion that if I chose put in the effort to I could be ‘accepted’ and ‘liked’ by anyone. I’m aware none of this can be made into a rule or a practice e.g. ‘always accept invitations’ or ‘always reach out’. The only real practice that seems sustainable is to seek some internal alignment of desires that allows me to feel at peace while also fulfilling the intention to diminish separation between me and everyone/everything.

Currently in trying to do this I am finding lots of anxiety in being rejected. In fact I am being rejected most of the time it seems[1], which makes me think of the Vineeto quote Andrew paraphrased to me yesterday of “we usually dont get what we want”. I think this is better than what was happening before where there was no reaching out and I was instead staying totally safe and hidden… but it is far from ideal. The question for me right now is how to be ‘reaching out’ without experiencing it as such an ordeal.

A somewhat intellectual answer that I am exploring experientially is that it is through total involvement that it can be possible. Somewhat akin to Richards ‘giving himself totally’ but without a single person as a focus. As soon as I am fearing rejection, I think there are doubts about whether I should be reaching out or protecting myself. If there is no doubt then there is only this force of reaching out and ending separation/self-protection and whether I am rejected or not isn’t important. I guess this is because there’s no question of whether I should keep reaching out? Not that I will necessarily keep inviting someone to hang out over and over forever, but I will always be seeking to take some step to diminish separation.

Anyway am I way out on a limb here far from actualism? I think this is all a response to my previously corrupted faux-actualism practice… I’m not yet sure if this is a case of the pendulum swinging to the opposite extreme or if this really is the way to be happy and harmless come what may. I’m hoping that I am in an initial anxious period of pursuing a new way of being but once it settles down it will be more deeply rewarding than other ways of being I have settled into.

[1] Not necessarily referring to constant refusal of invitations or anything, more about an emotional disinterest in me seeking to bridge a gap.

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This has been my experience as well, where I’m at on that now is that it has much more to do with them than me… even when I’m perfectly peaceful and happy others will keep up a ‘wall’ of rejection which I can see/detect. Usually this rejection is felt, as awkwardness or a sharp “I’ve been rejected” pain, but it doesn’t have to be. There’s observation that that’s what they’re doing, it can be very simple like that.

What keeps me ‘involved’ is the awareness that there can be delightful social encounters, so I’m willing to bear plenty of rejection (in subtle and un-subtle ways) because sometimes it’s a lovely encounter. What I can do to give this the best chance is ‘be’ delight, myself, from my own side. That way, 50% of the encounter is guaranteed to be delightful. It’s in their hands at that point.

There is no actualism without some risk. Recognizing one’s own emotional landscape, as well as seeing clearly the actions and emotions of others, carries with it the potential for and likelihood of suffering/negative emotions to occur.

The subtle thing is that the negative emotions were there / have been there the entire time, inside of you. They were just held at a distance, via avoidance of triggering situations. The wonderful thing about putting ourselves in those situations - risk - is that it brings those triggers to the surface, where they can be observed, patterns can be recognized, they can be ‘known,’ and you have the opportunity to experiment with feeling good in those situations.

When avoidance is occurring, none of this is possible because we’re refusing to even look at the emotion happening. It’s kept in a fog - which means that ‘I’ am in a fog, as an ongoing experience.

It’s useful to be gentle with all of this, don’t push more than you yourself are ready for at any particular time. But when you are ready, plunging in is where the action is.

The reason to reach out is because you want to. That’s reason enough. By consummating your own desire via trying, you’re on the path of investigating aka ‘finding out the facts.’ In the facts are confidence, as well as the actual world itself. The rejection that occurs is part of the facts; it’s a fact that people reject - frequently. That’s part of the landscape of humanity.

Your own fear of rejection is a part of this landscape as well - that’s part of what’s being studied with this experience. What types of situation trigger rejection? What does it feel like? What is sensible to do? Et cetera.

I’ve been on a very similar path of ‘admitting my desires’ the last 6 months and it’s been nothing but beneficial for me. I’m carrying a sincerity that I didn’t have before; these are sincerely my desires. And actualism is all about living the best life possible, so if I’m interested in something / desire something, it only makes sense to dive in and separate the wheat from the chaff.

And it’s all perfectly compatible with actualism; I want to hang out with pretty girls, and I see that the Henry who is happy and harmless is the best at getting along with pretty girls (and everybody). It’s a coast-to-coast win.

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@hunterad

I have also been going out far more often. I have a friend who is quite amazing in his ability to get to know everyone and has built an entire social network from scratch. He is from Mumbai, India.

He enjoys people. We were chatting about it, and he told me that just about everyone in his now tight “core” group of friends rejected him.

He is now the ring leader. We walk into all his usual clubs, straight past the que outside, he greets the bouncer and we are in.

We walk in the club and there will be another group of friends which excitedly greet him.

I’ve also attended a “Meet Up” group which was a positive psychology lecture. Again, just getting out there.

Funny, when I am walking now, I tend to enjoy the busier roads, where before I wanted only the quite streets.

I don’t try to make some huge effort to talk to people, only the “core” group. But I smile, ask names, forget names, ask again!

Tomorrow I am going to a birthday party at a pub for one of the girls I only briefly met in one of the “satellite” groups my friend has.

Apparently, she insisted. But my mate could be making that up. :sweat_smile::rofl::yum:

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So maybe that is something to look out for, finding who the natural “ring leader” of fun is, and tagging along.

Befriending the naturally talented social experts.

I have tried previously to go out years ago, but on my own and with the intention of meeting women. That was usually not much fun. I had zero friends back then.

I just happened to have met this guy through work.

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One thing I noticed about him is even when he doesn’t like someone, he won’t reject them. He will chat, laugh, and move on.

I get too bogged down in trying to connect, rather than just enjoying the fact there are all these people around. A social butterfly I am not.

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This is key for sure, in the moments where there was not fear of rejection, it seemed to me it was because I was fully committed to seeking intimacy. The moments where there was fear I was putting up a boundary of my own. For example if this person doesn’t reciprocate enough I should reject them so that I don’t feel like a loser when they reject me. Somehow the movement of ‘protecting from future sadness’ always ends up being present anxiety. When the guard is down and there is involvement and commitment I am finding little anxiety. I’m just finding this to be true via a general principle of ‘don’t dissociate or withdraw’. That principle is putting me in a place where I have to be either happy and harmless or anxious right now, nowhere to hide.

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@Andrew I appreciate the spirit of seeking out interaction and intimacy. That’s where I am as well. A thought that comes to mind is that phrase of ‘likable and liking’ that Richard has used a few times. “I” control whether “I” like others, and that action of liking is the very thing that makes “me” likable.

Your posts speak to doing this action of ‘liking’ that’s gotta be a way forward! And if you do genuinely like others then of course you would want to be liked by them too, no contradiction…

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I’ve been noticing how my mood fluctuates relative to how much I am presently “retreating” from intimacy. This plays out most clearly when I notice that I feel rejected in some way. After that moment of sensing someone else’s disinterest, I have two paths. One is to remain ‘interested’, enjoying, sensitive and open to the other, the other path is to retreat, put up a wall, and become either self-critical or resentful of the person.

Why do I not always choose to take the ‘interested’ direction? Am I simply protecting my pride? I don’t want to be the one interested while the other person is disinterested… that would indicate I am more needy than them, less liked than them, etc.

Is there more to the story? Somehow I sense that I will be hurt if I am interested without some assurance that the other person is too. More than just pride? Not sure right now.

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Are you talking about women? Talking in person or on apps?

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Lumping it all together basically. Observing the general pattern. I guess it all triggers the same insecurities about me being unlikable basically.

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Fear = the wall to intimacy = ‘Me’

So somewhere in that situation, fear is being triggered, hence no intimacy and the difficulty of finding interest

In these moments, being afraid is more important to us than being ‘interested,’ ‘fascinated,’ ‘happy & harmless’

It can be done though

Maybe most interesting is the possibility of being fascinated in one’s own experiencing of various fear-states

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@hunterad

I would suggest not “lumping it all together” and also suggest not thinking about it if you are not feeling good.

Just “I am good, Larry, thanks” feeling good will be better than anything done while feeling “insecurities about being unlikable”.

That’s rumination when we are thinking whilst being the feeling we otherwise want to not be, it permeates our thinking process and ensures that we are back tomorrow with the entire thing still intact.

Pure contemplating is the goal. To be feeling good, and only then thinking about it.

The second stage I am learning is to spot the emotional elements in thoughts by asking "am I planning to do this? Or am I ruminating/fantasising?" If it’s an otherwise sensible thought (quality friends, a quality partner, better job etc) getting back to feeling good can be done on the fly. Then some plan of action can be taken. Actualism is in the actions. Actions of mind, and actions of body.

e.g. All of the above are deliberate actions of mind, while carrying out the plan (talk more with that girl, go to the gym, get a better job, or enjoying doing nothing more thoroughly) are the actions of body.

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Hmm this is an interesting one, I would say when the word rejected is used in this case it is referring to an emotion/belief and not a fact, this might be usefull to separate out.

In order to be rejected ‘I’ must be putting something out, there are some ‘tentacles’ reaching out to the person, hoping to be reciprocated, this is where ‘I’ am on the line and hence the fear of rejection.

This has the consequence of creating potential winners and loosers in interactions like this. Also in order to overcome that fundamental vulnerability ‘I’ have to come up with all sorts of tricks and justifications.

I can see what you are doing though @hunterad and it makes sense. Since you would in the past reject those desires for intimacy, you are now throwing yourself into it all and seeing how to make it work.

What you might find eventually though is you might continue tripping up over this vulnerability, so then the question becomes how to free yourself from the vulnerability, because as much as it might be a doorway to exploring intimacy to begin with, it will eventually be seen as a blocker to it also, it will continue hobbling you in a way.

Because as long as the vulnerability is there, ‘you’ have to put some sort of wall up in order to protect ‘yourself’, this stops the very intimacy you are looking for.

The awesome thing that’s clear in a PCE is that actual intimacy is so wonderful because there is no ‘you’ that could potentially be hurt and so the interactions are candid in a way that ‘I’ can never do otherwise.

I am confident that it is possible to arrive at a place where the word ‘rejection’ sort of looses its meaning, it looses its ‘bite’ if that makes sense. I say this experientially although I must say that if you are in general writing about your experiences with girls/dating then I am not speaking from experience :joy: Luckily I already have a gf so I don’t have to navigate that minefield :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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@Andrew The lumping together here was in regards to writing about a general pattern of how I experience rejection broadly. I don’t see an issue with it in that case? If I find myself having the same series of feelings in a variety of situations, I think it’s worthwhile to investigate that pattern. As far as investigating a particular feeling that is occurring, I do look at the situation specifically causing the feeling.

It is a good reminder that feeling good while investigating is better. What I wrote about in that post you responded to was a report from a moment where I finally got back to feeling good and I was seeking to understand what changed since nothing external had happened to cause it. Also seeking to understand what it was that prevents the same feeling good from happening more often. That said I do find myself thinking about this while feeling bad as well not gonna deny that!

The rumination that occurs isn’t exactly fantasizing about potential actions i.e. should I do this or that in order to get the other person interested. It’s usually along the lines of investigating a feeling. I have been ruminating on a question of “is the only thing that is making me anxious a choice to retreat from intimacy?” If I can keep my guard down will I be automatically free of the anxiety?

Essentially it’s a question of how can I mentally frame and relate to others (especially in the case of them showing disinterest) in order to keep feeling good and remain inclined towards intimacy. I guess this probably seems like complicating the issue, “just get back to feeling good” I know, I know… but feeling good usually seems to have some content or thought behind it for me - some response to the previously existing feeling. I am trying to do it in a way that isn’t my old technique of “it doesn’t matter what people think of me let’s enjoy and appreciate this moment”. All this said, yes I would benefit from getting back to feeling good at this particular moment :upside_down_face:

Thanks for your response, happy to hear more even if this post was a bit contrarian I am seeking to understand and hear other perspectives… though I wouldn’t want to just agree to something without it fully making sense to me.

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Yea this is valid for sure. I am really only discussing the feeling of being rejected here. For instance it occurred yesterday when I was waiting to hear from someone, it turns out they just didn’t have phone service and so there was no factual rejection at all.

In order to be rejected ‘I’ must be putting something out, there are some ‘tentacles’ reaching out to the person, hoping to be reciprocated, this is where ‘I’ am on the line and hence the fear of rejection.

Agreed it depends on a hope for reciprocation, this is the vital point I am interested in right now. It’s also a good point that as long as the vulnerability is there I am surely putting up some wall. I think these things all intersect in feeling bad. At times I’m even starting to play a role where being rejected is a virtue. It makes me think I’m less artful and calculated than everyone maybe, more pure of heart. That’s certainly a wall against intimacy!

The moments I’ve had where ‘rejection’ loses its bite seem be moments of commitment to intimacy regardless of reciprocation. I suppose this is just because that commitment coincides with feeling good. I am having a hard time getting there right now.

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@hunterad

Firstly some normal chat;

I’ve always found myself liking you. The couple of times we have chatted on video, I also liked you.

Actualism ideas;

When I was completely broken after losing what I thought was the ultimate intimacy; an ideal life with the woman of my dreams (literally I had dreams about a woman like her) I clung onto Richard’s suggestion that “loneliness is not caused by the absence of people, but rather not being here, right now, in this place” (paraphrased)

General Observations;

Because of my upbringing as a world saving Christian, the time in the new age (an aspiring god is very charismatic)and later out of shear necessity to earn money by climbing the ladder to management, I gained skills in relating to people. What I have noticed is those skills are not very widespread.

Most people don’t have them, make little effort to engage, and generally will gather a number of school friends, and work colleagues who are similar to themselves. That is their social group.

Even though I will engage, ask questions, listen, laugh and otherwise “turn on the charm”, it is seldom returned to me.

There will be a few social butterflies that will (like my friend) “collect you” into there circle, there will be the occasional work colleague that shows interest (like the woman you met at work).

That’s about as good as it gets in the real world.

More actualism ideas;

As you are using the word “intimacy” then it starts right here, and right now with yourself. No one can make you feel something, all they are manipulating or activating is the feelings already in you. Or more specifically, the particular “buttons” your social identity has built into it.

If you want more acquaintances and friends, that is about actively knowing what buttons to push to create the feeling in them that they need you to better “play the game they think they can win” as Jon put it. It’s hardly intimacy.

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It’s like Aesop’s fable of the fox, except the grapes really are sour!

The big juicy ones at the top are just as sour as the small unripe one’s at the bottom.

I enjoy going out these days because it’s something to do. There is always the possibility of some interesting conversation, but mostly it’s smiling and being around people.

I will be going back to salsa dancing next week for a similar reason. It’s something to do, and the possibility of interesting events with people isn’t going to happen alone on my couch. Except for the virtual conversations here.

Edit; sometimes a grape is a little less sour, and when mixed with alcohol, makes for a pleasant interaction. A “whiskey sour” if you will. :grinning:

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This is as good as it gets. You are exercising your “intimacy skills” and it doesn’t come back, but you don’t take it personally. That’s 90% of interactions for me.

Like you said also, it can lead to a sort of pride at being special. Maybe I am just too good for them. It’s extremely common for it to be exactly what the other is thinking. That there is no way you really like them. Pre-rejected.

Spinoza observed that 450 years ago “If a person even imagines that you hate them, they will hate you”

The ASA article touches on this when it says not to take it all personally. In this case “oh, here is human rejection” rather than “I am rejected”.

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Richard:
"An unimaginable purity permeates the whole of existence, showering its blessing over all and sundry. From the condition of being ‘human’, one can plug into that purity with a pure intent.

Pure intent is the connection between the intimate aspect of oneself, that one usually keeps hidden away for fear of seeming foolish, and the purity of the peak experience."

Me:
All the normal advice/ observations I gave, of course pale into insignificance when one considers what Richard suggests we do with that intimate aspect of ourselves.

Plug into the purity of the universe !

Apparently, it gives a great return on investment. Always comes back, and draws one in for more.

It’s quite the sales pitch. I am sold, pending delivery.