Homosexuality investigation

Actualism
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This is a response to @pelagash asking about my investigation of gay identity. I think it makes more sense in a new topic.

So to answer your question, the investigation is still very much in progress :yum:.

I’d be interested to talk about it in person potentially if you want, as I keep trying to write stuff but I’m not necessarily finding clarity yet. I’m very interested to hear your perspective and compare notes.

Having reduced the strength of my feelings and triggers relating to sexual identity, I’m starting to feel less fixed on men generally, and this is opening me up to the possibility I might be bisexual (I did have a romantic/sexual relationship with a girl about 10 years ago, but nothing since).

I have had hundreds of partners as a gay guy but rarely found a sense of emotional connection happening (apart from sexual fervour in bed and a kind of “friendship” outside of bed). There has never been an impetus towards intimacy with guys on my part, or from them, as far as I can tell. Maybe that’s something to do with my emotional makeup, identity, views etc - I’m not sure. As I said, keen to compare notes!

Looking around at the ‘gay community’ - despite the “love is love” rhetoric, I don’t see many romantic or love relationships happening at all. There are couples, but as far as I can tell behind closed doors it’s usually an open relationship, with each partner seeking alternative sexual partners regularly. It seems gay feelings/behaviour are dominated by compulsive physical narcissism/insecurity and fucking (based on some sexual value hierarchy where you can compete and elevate your status/worth through physical attractiveness and sexual conquest). That has certainly been true of me in any case.

I have no moral quandary with hookup culture by the way (having been such an active participant myself), except for the fact that there is a lot of hurt and desperation within that way of operating. But with where I’m in life, and where I’m at currently with actualism, I’m interested in exploring new areas - intimacy, harmony, companionship and so on.

I’m definitely not saying that it’s not possible to connect with a man, but it hasn’t been happening for me. Whereas it seems with women the situation is already primed towards that. Even with this girl today, at vibe level I can feel she is really looking for a mate, and I intuit that she sees me as a potential option in a biological sense. I’ve gone on lots of dates with guys and I don’t feel that vibe in the same way at all. What I feel from guys I’ve met up with is, rather, a desire to validate their own physical/sexual attractiveness value by being with me (same as I’m doing with them) and once that is done we both lose interest or just act as friends.

I’m honestly starting to question if that’s what homosexuality essentially is……rather than thinking of homosexuality as being on the same level as heterosexuality or a direct counterpart. Almost as if it were a side quest that a male identity can get caught up in. I’ve found with my attraction to guys that it’s principally status based. Yes there is sexual desire but it’s fuelled by a perception that the other guy is better looking than me (based on X, Y and Z characteristics which I usually don’t possess myself). This creates a feeling almost of self disgust or self hatred - I remember looking at “hot guys” and feeling like I wanted to kill myself basically, as that’s how worthless it made me feel.

With one’s own value so often at play and at risk, there is a need to constantly improve oneself, especially physically. It’s not even good enough to be good looking, one aims for invulnerability by trying to look as perfect as possible physically. The constant failure to live up to that is debilitating and fuels the cycle of dissatisfaction even more, along with male sexual desire which propels it.

Those theories all aside, I’ve been exploring the bisexuality in a practical sense. I had a date this morning with a girl and we are going to see each other again. Something about it feels right, compared to being with guys. Maybe just the way a man and a woman fit together on the emotional level. I can feel a bit of that with this girl already - not that we ‘fit’ but just that that there’s a vibe.

By the way, I’m well aware that I may be talking in universals about things that are just personal to my experience, so keen to hear your thoughts.

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Woah that’s some fascinating stuff! It’s great that this forum allows for a frank discussion on topics like this, I have often wondered about some of the points you bring up but I cannot think of a situation where it would be safe or beneficial to bring these up as this is questioning the very foundations of someones sexual identity.

I can’t relate to a lot of this but still I find these investigations you are having super interesting. Plus this is somewhat of an area that it seems has never been tapped into? As in a full investigation (actualist style) into one’s identity as a gay man.

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Haha glad you find it interesting! And you’re right these topics are a bit taboo in the current social climate of woke forgone conclusions :slight_smile:

I’m definitely not claiming I’m right about things here in terms of objective theory. This is more just a summation of my investigations into it so far.

Though I do seem to want to build theories about the world :sweat_smile:.

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Thanks for your reply @Felix, it’s pretty interesting to read about your discoveries and theories on the matter, so thank you for such a detailed answer. I’m definitely open to comparing notes one of these days via chat!

I understand your views on ‘the gay community’ and know many couples that seem to be dominated by narcissism, insecurity and competitiveness to see who’s more attractive, and I have definitely seen the harm they can cause themselves and others. Now, when it comes to my own experience, I knew early on that what I wanted was intimacy and companionship with someone, but just like you, I had plenty of ‘bad’ experiences with other guys where we couldn’t really connect emotionally, or things just didn’t work out. I remember thinking I must be wired differently or something, because I had no interest in ‘hookup culture’ or an open relationship, but it never occurred to me to date women, probably because I feel no attraction to them sexually, and I would have felt like I was lying to them or something. My answer to this particular ‘problem’ back then was more like ‘OK, finding a guy who wants the same that I want seems rather impossible, so I’ll just stay single forever’ which didn’t really bother me because a big part of my identity was built on being emotionally independent and being comfortable spending time on my own.

However, all of a sudden I met someone who wanted the same things that I was looking for in a relationship, and we have been living together quite peacefully for three years now. I feel that if I hadn’t met him, I would probably have many similar theories to you about homosexuality, but the intimacy I now experience when I spend time with him is only comparable to what I used to only be able to feel when I spent time alone. Since reading about AF and practicing the method, I definitely feel that ‘being gay’ has less to do with my identity, meaning I don’t really give it as much importance as I did in the past. Now, the fact that my partner is a man and not a woman seems less important than reducing the bad feelings that come up in day-to-day interactions. So, in short, according to my own experience, it is possible to have a relationship with a man that’s based on intimacy and constant enjoyment, it’s just that you have to find someone looking for the same thing who happens to be a man.

Theories are very interesting, and I feel that as humans we can be extremely creative and inventive when it comes to coming up with amazing theories of why things are the way they are, but personally, I find that it’s much more important to explore the feelings that lead me to create my own theories about the world, than the theories themselves. Meaning, that instead of coming up with a whole theory about what homosexuality essentially is, I think it’s much more interesting to explore why you can’t have intimacy with someone who happens to be a man and be aware of all the feelings that come up when you fail to connect with someone, as you would in any other relationship in your life.

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Very interesting pelagash!

And Felix thanks for posting so honestly, it is helpful to hear all sides of the emotional
conundrums of the human experience, against the background of the actual world.

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Regarding using sexuality as a narcissistic confirmation of the self, as a mostly straight man I’ve experienced this dynamic from my own side in how I’ve approached women, so it could make sense in a gay context that you’d have two men both looking for the same dynamic and thus creating a heightened version of that, and even more so at a ‘cultural’ level as everyone is verifying the same reality. Whereas in a heterosexual dynamic, there is some leavening as a man might bring one dynamic and a woman another dynamic.

This could be compared with the lesbian trope of ‘moving in together immediately,’ wherein both are verifying the ‘reality’ of wanting protection & emotional closeness from the other.

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I think you have put this really well. Well said

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Hey. Thanks so much for your detailed answer - was very interesting to read that.

One thing that may play a role here is that I have been a willing and active participant in this “system” I describe, for many years. Now that I’m applying the method more, and my priorities have changed, that system and how I operate within it myself is starting to look really perverse. Again not in a moral way, but the feeling experience of it.

So while I have extrapolated the data to talk about some theories, what I describe above is really based on my personal exploration (even though I agree it’s a stretch to create theories out of it). A lot of what I mentioned is really talking about me - as indeed there are gay people who reject hook up culture and everything, and who are looking hard for love. That certainly wasn’t the case for me. I have been in the fuck cycle as much as anyone! I have explored every corner of it in fact.

We could talk about this stuff for hours - it’s almost like an analysis of personality traits and habitual behaviours (ideas about who one considers oneself to be). I think it’s probably easy to get wrapped up in and distracted by that - I could spend literally years lying on a couch thinking about ‘me’ and the way I am, asking what is deficient about me, what is unique about me, how I could improve myself, what do I have to learn, am I well-adjusted? Etc etc It’s so easy to get caught up in a kind of game where I pose questions that I will never be able to answer. Becoming actually free is obviously not about understanding at the analytical level how human psychology works. I don’t remember any of these topics being remotely important during a PCE - this Pandora’s box of questions is created by feeling states (the self basically looking for problems to solve and deficits to create). As you point out, it’s the moment to moment investigation which matters - not the analysis side - and I would do well to keep that in mind as I have a tendency to be extremely analytical in relation to myself and others.

For example, it would be typical of me to analyse this situation about dating a girl. There are beliefs there perpetuating my behaviour, no doubt. I could try to lay out contributing factors and the role of beliefs. An example of some beliefs/motivations I might come up with could be:

  • wanting to reinforce the idea that I am masculine/powerful/valuable/protective (feeding my ego) as reflected in the eyes of this girl who finds me attractive
  • curiosity/sensation-seeking; like a new ride for me to go on in the theme park of human experience
  • boredom around my way of operating as a gay guy. It’s like a failed try and true method - something I no longer value, so I’m looking elsewhere
  • fears around getting older as a gay guy (losing my sexual status, not being in a committed relationship yet, not being able to have children), and seeing being heterosexual as a way out of that and creating a “meaningful” life
  • a release from the pressure I put myself (as a member of the gay community) to be physically perfect, whereas women seem to already find me attractive as I am and that somehow relaxes my neuroticism about it
  • a desire to have emotional needs met. I’ve never been one to think or hope about love: romantic love is not something I am “familiar” with at all. It could be that now that I’ve addressed my tendencies for adventurous/thrill-seeking/sensation-seeking/hypersexual/kinky behaviour through actualism, I am now discovering deeper emotional needs, like a desire for love/affection, which I’ve had a tendency to ignore or suppress.

Ok - there’s some ideas but it’s not very clear what l the real cause is and the guess could go on forever - like a kind of Freudian/Jungian analysis. I often mention the famous/infamous psychologist Jordan Peterson, in a somewhat critical way, but it’s also because I can see a lot of similarities between him and me. He’s very analytical, very linguistic - but there is a strong undercurrent of feelings and instincts fueling that. He’s quite vulnerable and turbulent actually. His analyses and supposed findings/theories/extrapolations about himself and about psychology do not seem very effective in solving his problems, as far as I can tell (he is hardly the picture of mental health…). Whilst he perpetually analyses and proffers theories, his feelings and hidden emotional beliefs go uninvestigated. There is a lot of neuroticism there and a good mood is not something that tends to result for him, based on my observations.

As you say, theories (“analytical investigation) are not what the actualism method is. My tendency is to point my intellect at external things - even treating myself and my feeling states as a kind of external entity that I can dissect. With my attention then on outside things, I think my feelings are given the opportunity then to lead me astray.

It’s a big challenge for me to become naive in the way required for genuine moment-to-moment emotional investigation. It’s a challenge to head towards the emotional innocence and purity I remember of the PCE. When I feel good, I do not find myself asking those types of self-searching questions, or trying to solve the impossible equation of how the world works. In the PCE there is none of that all.

It’s hard to tell if the dating a girl thing is genuine or not. My feelings and beliefs led me there, it wasn’t a conscious decision at all. I guess the main tell will be the sexual aspect, and whether I hit a hard barrier when it comes to that.

Rather than continue to analyse the situation I’m going to see what happens when I just focus on feeling good instead

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