I had very similar experiences, I remember writing about it in zulip I think, that every time I would get close to the Actual world, seeing just how freeing it is, how all of the suffering was for absolutely nothing. The enormity of that release would bring tears to my eyes, and then the ‘good’ feelings were never far away from flooding in. Also at this point the experience would be interrupted by ‘my’ antics.
But looking back it seems for me it was a necessary step to process what was happening (coming from so many years of utter despair and anxiety), eventually after some time the tears in eyes, good feelings, great release etc stopped of their own accord. I think most of us on this forum know enough about the trap of enlightenment to not go down that path, the very fact that you are writing about it means you are on the look out anyways.
Cool to have you around again @Felix I thought you had become another lost comrade
Haha yeah I could feel myself start to come back into the picture and I was aware of it and then out of nowhere ‘I’ was there comprehending the existence of the whole event and reacting accordingly. I don’t see it as bad at all though, the release was good for me as a feeling being and like you said, almost a necessary thing to process.
Haha no I’ve been in the background as dedicated as ever! Honestly I still don’t think I’d have any advice for someone as to what to do, or not to do to get things to work - except….don’t give up
Right yes and that’s a good point about advice and maybe that’s because advice doesn’t often get the job done (in a sense of advice being a prescription of what to do) This is something I always noticed in peters and vineetos writings. People would ask for advice but they would mostly reply with their own experiences and discoveries. Not because they are stingy with advice but because at the end of the day ‘my’ great discovery might do nothing for you, it’s the process of each individual doing their own exploration and discovery that does it. Participating here seems mostly to share experiences, cross-check certain things and correct misunderstandings.
Yeah that’s a good point. To me I’d say that it’s hard to give advice about something that esoteric. To me the process of having a peak experience happen is still pretty unfathomable . I used to go out on PCE walks every day - with all manner of advice in my head. I remember sometimes it was like 4 hours at a time, and even 8 hours on one particular day . And I had no luck. Even though I wanted so badly to have one. Was I too “insincere” or something? I don’t think so. Have I learnt a technique which i didn’t know back then? I don’t think so.
To me it seems there is mainly a serendipitous aspect to it which is why consistent application is the only factor I can really point to as a success factor (aside from being well, which I wasn’t back then. I got prescribed SSRIs twice, which I never took).
Yeah serendipitous is a good way to put it, personally ever since my resurgence with Actualism I have not focused on PCE walks etc at all really.
Partly because when I first came across actualism years ago, I would go on these long PCE walks every day, often multiple times a day, and try to force a PCE to happen. Some interesting things would sometimes happen but mostly that aspect of pushing the experience would prevent a PCE from actually happening. Also it would often start verging into some weird ASC territory.
When I came back to Actualism I focused entirely on upping my baseline. The PCE’s that happened all happened like you say serendipitously.
When I step back and think about it, it makes complete sense, no matter how hard ‘I’ try to make a PCE happen, ‘I’ end up digging ‘myself’ in even further. Because for the PCE to happen ‘I’ must go into abeyance, the action of allowing it to happen is the opposite of ‘me’ trying to make it happen.
Reading your reply though has made me wonder about something that Srinath has mentioned previously, that this ‘allowing it to happen’ can be looked at as a skill in its own right. At first very difficult to grasp but once it is found and one has the knack for it, then it is like riding a bike.
This is one avenue that I have not explored at all and it is making me wonder wether this could be very useful. I remember when I met up with Alan I was asking about how important a PCE is to ‘actualism progress’ and he said that he did not have PCE’s all that often, Dona then added the observation that both Srinath and Geoffrey when close to self-immolation seemed to be able to have them happen very frequently.
Nothing in particular. I sometimes get the sense I’m dilly-dallying. Coming with the sense of it is the automatic moving further along as it is clear that is what makes sense to do.
What is a huge difference now vs a few weeks or certainly months ago is that I can’t really get myself to self-recriminate anymore. It just doesn’t make sense to do. Bad feelings aren’t ‘bad’… good feelings aren’t ‘bad’. And neither are they ‘good’. They are what they are - natural human things. They evidently have clear consequences. It evidently makes more sense to be felicitous — it’s self-evident it’s better for everyone and everything to thrive and enjoy being alive. They’re clearly ultimately unnecessary. There’s not much more to it than enjoying being alive!!
Yea! Definite knack to it. I am getting the hang of it. EE is much easier than PCE.
I would put it like there are opportunities to do it that come up naturally during the day- and more and more with higher baseline. And then I have a sense of when it can happen and then it’s sort of easy to “swim” in that direction. Or more like let the current take me there. Or some combo of both.
And then other times it happens serendipitously. If deep down i think and feel like i really want or need one then it tends to happen. But other times can still happen by surprise.
@Kub933 haha yeah that makes sense. I was the biggest forcer ever and got absolutely nowhere. Didn’t Srinath write something on his website like “steely determination is for naught”. How right he is . It’s a tough one but that’s where dedication does pay off eventually in that you can gradually learn what to do or not do.
What is a huge difference now vs a few weeks or certainly months ago is that I can’t really get myself to self-recriminate anymore. It just doesn’t make sense to do. Bad feelings aren’t ‘bad’… good feelings aren’t ‘bad’. And neither are they ‘good’. They are what they are - natural human things. They evidently have clear consequences. It evidently makes more sense to be felicitous — it’s self-evident it’s better for everyone and everything to thrive and enjoy being alive. They’re clearly ultimately unnecessary. There’s not much more to it than enjoying being alive!!
@claudiu the above seems strange to me - you seem to write in such relative terms as if everything was all the same: good feelings, bad feelings, PCE….they are all just “natural”. Yet the difference in degree between these things is massive. Bad feelings are self-evidently so much worse than good feelings. And a PCE is so much better than everyday ‘being’ regardless of good or bad feelings (there’s no comparison). It’s curious given your extensive peak experiences that you aren’t impelled towards actual freedom at this point, as something immensely desirable for that body. You wrote in your last message that you have success with EEs but a PCE is harder, but I wouldn’t have thought one is that much harder than the other overall.
I’m wondering…and this could be way off…if there is any chance you are mischaracterising your experiences (ie. ascribing the name EE and PCE to experiences that weren’t that)? Or alternatively, do you reckon you’ve had those genuine experiences but are somehow blocking yourself on an identity level to progressing further?
It’s none of my business but I thought I’d at least contribute my thoughts given I’m interested in actual freedom for myself and everybody
Oh indeed. Just because all feelings are natural doesn’t mean they are all the same. Also note I didn’t group the PCE together with the feelings. What I’m getting at is that I am seeing it’s not sensible to morally judge feelings as ‘good’ or ‘bad’. As someone famous around these parts put it:
And yet when what is happening is a PCE, don’t you sometimes get the sense or impression that all ‘you’ get up to as a feeling-being is overly-dramatic, much ado about nothing?
I’m certainly impelled towards it, but I’m more seeing that my past attempts at propelling have only gotten me so far, and something else is needed to continue.
They aren’t so different , but still EEs happen more often for me than PCEs. What’s the ratio like in your experience?
I don’t think so - they’re pretty clear to me at this point. Though I’ve noticed sometimes hard to tell when a PCE has turned into an EE or vice versa.
Well as self-immolation can happen any moment - including while I write this and while you read it - then it’s always true we are all blocking ourselves from self-immolating somehow. So the question is what to do in the meantime?
I’m not saying there’s nothing I/you can do … so what do we do?
I think sharing on here implicitly invites anyone reading to comment or ask questions. So no worries there - fun to discuss and share!
Hehe I’ve gone busily editing my messages so your quotes won’t quite match up unfortunately - sorry that’s not intentional.
This whole idea though that self-immolation can happen at any time - I’m not quite sure that’s exactly how it works. If you don’t want it, if you aren’t going for it, then how is it going to happen? Is there a reason you don’t want to really go for it?
Regarding your feelings - sure. you can regard them as all natural or within the same kind of category, but that doesn’t really change the experiential quality of them right? Merely not morally judging feelings doesn’t mitigate them either surely. Have you got too used to the normal/neutral state of being lately and started to settle for second best?
I remember @geoffrey writing shortly before self-immolation about aiming at the actual with “all of his soul” or his “whole soul” or words to that effect. Everyone who has become actually free has diligently and determinedly gone after it haven’t they? Rather than sit back and wait for it.
I can’t say what the overall roadmap to becoming actually free is like - tonight I didn’t feel that far from it. I’m certainly more motivated than ever to go after it, and back as a feeling being I feel more at ease, light and happy. Even in the meantime I want as many EEs and PCEs to occur as possible and the fact that they can is exciting and motivating to the nth degree.
It just seems curious - you write so much here, you are as big an actualist expert on here as any, you’ve met Richard and Vineeto, what you write fits the bill for the actually free on here etc - but it seems experiential progress or progress towards actual freedom has stopped for you somewhat. It’s only that I’ve benefited from this recent jolt of progress and total wonderful surprise that I dare to nudge you about getting back on the horse - believing it’s possible, getting off your bum, doing whatever it takes to activate delight etc, because the results could not be more worth it (!!!).
Me neither I’m going by what Vineeto writes (it was her suggestion to put it on the diagram) and I presume she knows what she’s talking about.
Who’s to say I don’t want it / am not going for it?
What I’m saying is that the way to “really go for it” looks to me now is different than it did before. Before I put a lot of ‘self-pushing’ type of energy, pushing, drive, etc., into it, which got me to a certain point. But now it is clear that same type of energy will not get me further. So it’s not a matter of not going for it, but rather, navigating how precisely to go further.
I’m not advocating not being discerning. A brutal bloody battle is in the same category as a hummingbird flitting about, in that both are things that actually happen, but that doesn’t mean one isn’t preferable (or far preferable) to the other. Rather it’s that moral judgement in particular is redundant. It doesn’t add anything of benefit. This doesn’t mean there is “nothing to do” about it.
Not morally judging my own feelings does change the experiential quality of them! Quite a bit. It is way better, and also much easier to be sincere and see everything ‘I’ get up to with clear perspicacity.
It does mitigate them actually - as in alleviate but not resolve. Makes them far easier to navigate. I highly recommend it ! Moral judgement has no place in actualism.
Not neutral at all. Rather feeling good , but not out-from-control
Out-from-control is way better though!
Who’s to say I am sitting back and waiting for it?
“Pushing yourself” only works so far because any kind of pushing is not done with your “whole soul” — since there is one part pushing another. So the process is to get the whole soul on board. How to do that is the question! And indeed the answer is clearly not to just wait for it.
I have felt for maybe a year or two that “there can’t be much left” and that it’s really simple. And I don’t think I’ve been wrong per se. But sounds like you are on the right track anyway !
I wouldn’t say it’s stopped — if you look back the substance of what I wrote is that I stopped self-recriminating. But I appreciate the sincere and naive nudge!! There is a nice element of contagious energy to it
The nudge worked had an amazing minute or two of utter pure pristine perfection (PCE), follow by a fantastic drive just reveling in it (EE), allowing a deep-down part of myself to be felt and seen that I truly yearn for this !! impossible to believe how fantastic being alive is
Well, that’s how it (re)started for a lot of us a few years back, wasn’t it? On a more serious note, don’t get stuck in converting the rest of us and get back to work yourself. Why aren’t you free yet, huh? (j/k)
Now that I’m back to “normal”, I’m finding that the actual world is still cracking through. It’s a weird mix between being my regular self, and having frequent instances of things being different around me and much closer to what a peak experience is like. It’s subtle compared to a PCE but it’s not subtle compared to normal life if that makes sense.
Even right now I’m in a bit of a stressful situation (I forgot to take an important HIV preventative medication for gay people), but it’s as if I can’t muster what would usually be a very strong stress response. I can feel that I am responding with a slight stress but I can also feel an opposite reaction going the complete other way and it’s the more powerful one. I’m having little EE blips as I navigate the world. Flowers are brighter, objects are starker. There is an underlying knowing that things are actually OK underneath the ‘being’ imposed reality I’m living.
Additionally, and this is very new for me - I’m starting to feel myself caring deeply. Anyone who knows me would not describe me as a particularly “caring” person per se. Especially with the chronic stress having just eaten away at me for so long, it’s like I couldn’t be emotional anymore. I couldn’t feel sad. I couldn’t cry. I couldn’t feel that happy either. And I definitely couldn’t care. But now it’s like I’m “open” in a way I’ve not been in years. There is deep release of all that stress and struggle within me, and I have cried a couple of times since the PCE, in a very cathartic way that has felt very good to this feeling being. I feel genuine feeling caring for those around me and human beings at large. Suddenly I’m
empathising a lot with people and situations around me - again totally new to me.
I know I have to be careful in this area - not to get engrossed in a deep caring: especially not one based on sorrowful compassion (isn’t that where enlightenment lies? I can almost feel enlightenment in the sideline or on an alternative channel as well). I think it’s good that I care, but I don’t want to be ensnared by deluding myself into that deep emotional caring territory. I want to make sure I do the best possible thing for this body and everybody.
It’s strange to write, but I don’t feel that far off from being able to self immolate. Just like last night before the PCE, I feel “pregnant” with it. For most of this process it’s felt like I was fighting for this and combatting myself - and most of all not knowing what to do. I remember saying to Vineeto “I would self immolate but I can’t”. It’s as if now there is a sense that, even though I don’t know “how”, the sense of “I can’t” is losing its grip. It doesn’t seem at all impossible anymore. I “believe that it is possible”.
Esoteric territory and I never thought I’d be writing what I’ve written in this post. This whole territory seemed previously unknowable and impossible to me. I hope I can navigate this to the best possible benefit of this body and everybody
Don’t be too hard on yourself if love does get some snares on you at this stage. A common experience when experiencing this especial clarity & caring is that in seeing the others clearly, we can’t help but love them
Just more being in operation - more to investigate & you’ll be right on your way
I don’t know how up to date you have been with the recent threads but this appears to be very in line with the discussions we’ve had recently about a connection to Pure intent being established. It seems very similar to the experiences that me @claudiu and @henryyyyyyyyyy were writing about.
Do you find you can tune into that aspect more often/ more easily now vs in the past @Felix ?
Thanks @henryyyyyyyyyy. My experience seems to be fluctuating a lot - it’s weird haha. It’s like I’ve got 3 modes: normal, compassion/love/sorrow (new), EE/PCE/intimations of the actual (new). Think it’s all par for the course as you say. The one I’m least a fan of is normal
@Kub933 I haven’t been following the posts over the last few months but will try to catch up a bit. It’s a weird thing, the degree to which the underlying actual world is able to be seen or perceived or whatever. It’s not entirely clear to me what it is that turns it on or off, except perhaps remembering/believing part (rememoration of the PCE and believing/“knowing” the actual do be there). If I get too into my work than It tends to turn off, if I go outside it tends to turn on!
Have you guys noticed a change in whether or not you have to control a wayward self? I no longer feel like I’m doing that which is a big relief, whereas previously it’s been like I as an identity have been bucking and bolting like a world horse - creating a lot of havoc… haha
. I used to go out on PCE walks every day - with all manner of advice in my head. I remember sometimes it was like 4 hours at a time, and even 8 hours on one particular day 
