Doubt

[Kub933]

OK this is a good one, I wonder if I can put it across well enough and if you will agree

@son_of_bob

I don’t really belong to any group, unless one counts this forum and then maybe my family lol. I have already been the outsider/the reject etc. I don’t really care for groups.

‘You’ do belong to a group - ‘humanity’. ‘Your’ current role within the ‘group’ is that of an ‘outsider/reject’. This whole schtick of ‘not needing a group’ is a reactionary response to the pressures of being a group member. It gives the impression that you are no longer part of it, but the very resentment you have towards the group maintains your existence as a group member.

After all if you did not belong to a group then ‘who’ are you riling up against? ‘who’ are you trying to prove wrong? Who is ‘them’?

I have spoken to @Sonyaxx about something very similar lots and I find this really fascinating, its another example of the cunning that the identity gets up to.
What I usually mentioned to Sonya is that example of the ‘independent woman’ who ‘does not need a man’ and yet her entire persona is structured around demonstrating to men that she does not need them, it is a coping mechanism, a reactionary response, it appears as freedom but it is keeping one chained. Because in this example the woman has not actually freed herself from the conditioning, she is just riling up against it so much that she believes herself to be free, ultimately this does not deliver the goods.

And this is easily seen by how the ‘independent women’ will join together to create a sub-group or how the ‘outsiders/rejects’ will do the same. Ultimately they all share the same beliefs and they still belong so the drama continues, belonging remains and is now hidden under the rebellion against it, the good overlaying the bad.

[son_of_bob]

@Kub933

‘You’ do belong to a group - ‘humanity’. ‘Your’ current role within the ‘group’ is that of an ‘outsider/reject’.

I rejected humanity too. In the depths of my depression a part of me wanted all life to die. I could see that feeling kicking in when I slightly relapsed during Covid. Like I was happy the numbers were going up because we all deserve to die.

It is a weird place to find oneself in psychologically. I can see in coming out of depression, I am in a way reconnected emotionally to that “humanity” again. So, yes I can see what you are saying.

@Kub933

It gives the impression that you are no longer part of it, but the very resentment you have towards the group maintains your existence as a group member.

I would say before depression this was the case, once depressed it was like I switched against all life. I felt deep disgust for it all, this internal rage to want to see the Earth burnt to a crisp and all life extinguished.

@Kub933

This whole schtick of ‘not needing a group’ is a reactionary response to the pressures of being a group member.

I had a super close group that I belonged to for most of my life. My tribe so to speak. But mental health, alcoholism, death and geography conspired to bring that group apart…in a way I never believed possible. Thinking it was some untouchable, unchangeable bond between us. The collapse of that group showed me the conditionality of all emotional based relationships, be they friendships or with a spouse or partner.

@Kub933

After all if you did not belong to a group then ‘who’ are you riling up against? ‘who’ are you trying to prove wrong? Who is ‘them’?

Yes, I can see this resistance is against all humanity too and that depression period rejection of humanity has added an additional emphasis to the need to prove them wrong too.

@Kub933

And this is easily seen by how the ‘independent women’ will join together to create a sub-group or how the ‘outsiders/rejects’ will do the same.

Yes, exactly this is what me and my friends had done, we were the outsiders/rejects and had become friends during high school then into adult hood. We didn’t grow out of that outsider mindset. My smart friend had become aware of this too, and he too then introduced me to AF, and that was some of the first revelations once on board with AF, seeing those group identities and individual identities (the atheist/the writer etc).

@Kub933

Ultimately they all share the same beliefs and they still belong so the drama continues, belonging remains and is now hidden under the rebellion against it, the good overlaying the bad.

It is like a superficial rebellion really.

[Elgin]

@son_of_bob

I rejected humanity too.

@son_of_bob

I am in a way reconnected emotionally to that “humanity” again.

Maybe I missunderstand you, but that’s not what Kub933 is refering too.

It really doesn’t matter if you reject humanity, reconnect with humanity, love humanity or hate humanity.
That is merely an mental abstraction of humanity or symbolism.

You, I, the self is humanity and humanity is you, I, the self.
This is not a “phrase” or a “metaphorical discription” of something.
Humanity is the deeper or collective part of the self, a psychic reality and therefore happening in the psychic realm. In no way can both be seperated.

[son_of_bob]

@Elgin

Maybe I missunderstand you, but that’s not what Kub933 is refering too.

It really doesn’t matter if you reject humanity, reconnect with humanity, love humanity or hate humanity.
That is merely an mental abstraction of humanity or symbolism.

You, I, the self is humanity and humanity is you, I, the self.

That is interesting, I don’t see my “self” as humanity…though of course I am human lol. I am just a self, an agent that feels, thinks, perceives, I don’t really know what you mean if I am honest.

I have feelings towards the ideas of humanity, as a species and a collective, this is what I am thinking/describing in relation to here, but emotional reactions to the concepts/abstractions of humanity, i.e. my responses to @Kub933.

If you guys are alluding to something else, than I must admit I don’t really get what you mean.

Like some ultimate identity…the humanity identity?

There is no experiential connection with what you are saying. I read it, I get what you are trying to explain but it doesn’t seem like a fact to me.

How did you reach this conclusion?

@Elgin

Humanity is the deeper or collective part of the self, a psychic reality and therefore happening in the psychic realm.

Interestingly, this made me feel bad. That I am somehow unaware of this in operation in me, that I lack insight. Or are you describing emotional reactions and just grouping them as “humanity”. I don’t like not knowing something or misunderstanding something, really just killed my felicity lol.

I have emotions and emotional reactions to things but what deeper or collective part of the self do you mean? I don’t mean to be dense either, I am just trying to understand.

@Elgin

In no way can both be seperated.

You mean the self and humanity can’t be separated?

I guess in death…if committing suicide one destroys both then, if you can’t separate them.

[Elgin]

@son_of_bob

How did you reach this conclusion?

Intuitively or affectively.

Most of that stuff comes from my spiritual years, long before actualism, where I could, on some occasions, somewhat connect with the network or highway, as I used to call it.

It is a psychological-psychic superstructure accessed intuitively, by feeling in or feeling yourself out. The psychological part is more of an informational layer and consists of cultural conditioning. The psychological realm is, of course, influential, but not of primary concern. It is the psychic network underlying it all that gives it power, so to speak.

One begins with a random emotion/feeling (my sarrow) which appears as an individual “string” (think guitar). Then you follow that feeling/string further/deeper, which then exposes a different layer or stronger quality of it. The further/deeper you go, the more potent these feelings/strings become.
At one point, you realize that these feelings/strings are in no way individual anymore, but are collective feelings swirling all around, creating different little and greater swirls, and then finally merging into one enormous swirl-humanity. This is not a gradual transition anymore, but more like a river suddenly flowing into or becoming a huge ocean. It is a shift in perception.
In this collective area, you see that all feelings/beings are interconnected and form this enormous psychic construct.

An intuitively accessible structure is, of course, beyond the normal perceptible threshold.
It cannot be sensed with the “normal” senses, but its affective surges are felt throughout the body.
These deeper/collective surges can be enormously potent and easily overwhelm an individual if careless or ill-prepared.

This structure has a hierachy to it. It’s not just the fantasy/feelings of one mind. It’s the fantasies/feelings of countless minds/beings, compressed into some form of structure. I have no clue what that structure consists of, how it came into being, or where it is located, but it’s most definitely there.

Of particular interest is the way the psychic energies/currents move/behave and how they influence you on a much deeper level. How it draws you in, how it connects you to groups, ideas, and ideologies. How it repels you from other groups, ideas, and ideologies. How it keeps you in place while always appearing fresh and new. It’s really just the surface that changes, but the underlying movement and dynamics are always the same. Its whole “purpose” is to hold everything together, within humanity, within its domain. The self is merely the individual expression of the collective.

@son_of_bob

You mean the self and humanity can’t be separated?

I guess in death…if committing suicide one destroys both then, if you can’t separate them.

The self that “ends itself”, ends humanity, ends all psychic phenomena within one body.
Humanity goes on as long as human beings are alive.

I don’t think that all this stuff is important to know, but to be aware that the self has roots that lead very deep into the collective. A self can never distance itself from the collective, because it is the collective at its deepest level. It’s the same thing.

[son_of_bob]

Hi @Elgin,

Thanks for the reply.

@Elgin

Intuitively or affectively.

It really unsettles me that there is a domain of knowledge/experience that I can’t seem to touch or know. Your post really triggered me, in a way I am not sure you would have expected. My mind keeps ruminating on it, trying to understand it…find some common ground. An inability to accept being wrong and not knowledgeable about something.

@Elgin

It is a psychological-psychic superstructure accessed intuitively, by feeling in or feeling yourself out. The psychological part is more of an informational layer and consists of cultural conditioning. The psychological realm is, of course, influential, but not of primary concern. It is the psychic network underlying it all that gives it power, so to speak.

Ok, fascinating. I mean I get the aspect regarding cultural conditioning and the strange feelings intuitions about this. I guess I have reached this level of intuition and awareness. The emotional vibes and rules at play in this realm. Where even location and age/generation provide different parameters and rules.

I guess I have never delved so deep into the intuitions/vibes within me. I explored a lot the vibes and feeling states that were conducive to creativity and learning but nothing that connects with what you talk about here.

@Elgin

This structure has a hierachy to it. It’s not just the fantasy/feelings of one mind. It’s the fantasies/feelings of countless minds/beings, compressed into some form of structure. I have no clue what that structure consists of, how it came into being, or where it is located, but it’s most definitely there.

I guess, maybe the feelings as regards what people find taboo (I never found anything taboo much to the annoyance of people it seems) I would sense this structure/intuitive reaction and begin to build an intuitive picture of who I can say what to as well. If I really explore that, is a weird mish mash of remembering emotional reactions.

@Elgin

Of particular interest is the way the psychic energies/currents move/behave and how they influence you on a much deeper level. How it draws you in, how it connects you to groups, ideas, and ideologies. How it repels you from other groups, ideas, and ideologies.

I have seen this vibing at play, especially in my close group of friends. What would psych us up or what would repel or make us angry.

@Elgin

Its whole “purpose” is to hold everything together, within humanity, within its domain.

I never delved so deep as to realise such a thing.

@Elgin

The self is merely the individual expression of the collective.

Ok, and yet the self feels alienated, alone, disconnected. It is like the self is a bag of contradictions.

@Elgin

The self that “ends itself”, ends humanity, ends all psychic phenomena within one body.
Humanity goes on as long as human beings are alive.

Ah yes, should have been more careful with my words sorry. Yes, ones expression of humanity in themselves I meant, not humanity as a whole lol. That would be funny, if there was a species that if one member committed suicide the whole collective would die.

@Elgin

I don’t think that all this stuff is important to know, but to be aware that the self has roots that lead very deep into the collective.

Thanks for explaining so well. For some reason this was making me thinking of spiritual people when they tell me I am closed off. As though I am closed off to the spiritual feelings. Thus I started to think, am I doing something that closed me off to reach such a conclusion, not that it is absolutely relevant to what I am doing here, more so as a curiosity.

@Elgin

A self can never distance itself from the collective, because it is the collective at its deepest level. It’s the same thing.

So all distancing is a superficial expression of individuality?

[claudiu]

@Elgin

I have no clue what that structure consists of, how it came into being, or where it is located, but it’s most definitely there.

That’s the funny and extremely bizarre thing. It’s definitely there … … and yet it doesn’t actually exist lol. Like at all. It all disappears in the PCE and it’s then clear it doesn’t actually exist. How something that doesn’t actually exist, can have such extensive “coordinated” effects on other things that don’t actually exist (ie feeling-beings), I really don’t know. That is the most puzzling part about it.

[claudiu]

@Elgin

This structure has a hierachy to it. It’s not just the fantasy/feelings of one mind. It’s the fantasies/feelings of countless minds/beings, compressed into some form of structure. I have no clue what that structure consists of, how it came into being, or where it is located, but it’s most definitely there.

Oh one funny thing while delving in these waters after leaving Buddhism. I ‘saw’ Buddhism as this sort of brownish, very infinitely deep “well” in the psychic realm, that was sort of pristine, perfect, indomitable, all-encompassing, etc. And then I ‘saw’ actualism as this light and playful, maybe purplish, apparently far “smaller” thing … yet it would dance over and around the Buddhism currents and basically take the roots out from under it and completely crumble it haha. All in a playful naive manner. Not so indomitable after all!

[Elgin]

@son_of_bob

So all distancing is a superficial expression of individuality?

Exactly. You distance yourself from an image, a symbol, a replacement, while still standing on the same ground - humanity.

You can see how all political camps, all racial differences, all gender differences vanish within seconds when a “new enemy” is introduced. Then it instantly merges back to humanity versus “other”. When the danger settles all the little whirls go back to their old places to fight it out between each other again.
Culture, parties, camps change, but never the underlying power dynamics.