@claudiu Sorry for the late response. I was busy. But also it wasn’t clear to me what you were asking
It can be confusing dealing with desire, as there is a raw instinctual component to it – but also a more social identity aspect, which is less capital ‘D’ desire, than being told what to value and want. Then there is simple, naive preferences and likes. As a feeling being this is all rather mixed up. I remember at various times as a feeling being I would separate into naive and non-naive personalities – then it would snap back and I was one again. I don’t think this was an entirely fabricated or dissociative process. The further one goes and the more pure intent, the more obvious, ill-fitting and flimsy feeling being and social identity become. But one does have to watch out for fabricating the process and bringing a moral tinge to it. Let sincerity and pure intent be your guide.
At the end of the day the fear of you being left behind and of you becoming someone else is very real - because it is true. As Geoffrey once said, you need to be prepared to give up everything but you realise later you have lost only your chains. Its not for nothing that self-immolation is called the ultimate sacrifice
I’m very interested in this topic myself right now. I’ve been observing the mixed up categories of instinctual desire, socially conditioned ‘values’/‘desires’ and naive preferences and likes. I can’t always clearly sort them.
I am wondering how to ‘stay the course’ so that I can be consistently in touch with and guided by those naive preferences and likes. I find that at moments I am so authentic and spontaneous yet also harmless. I am almost certain that I want to live that way as it seems infinitely more happy, harmless, and also ‘involved’ rather than withdrawn. I could almost cry thinking of how harmful corrupted and calculating I am at even this moment relative to those times of naivete, there is plenty of intention to get to that place and stay there.
This quality of ‘involved’ appears to be based on being fully in touch with those naive preferences and likes I think, and somehow it leaves me automatically happy and harmless. It seems as simple as that if I am being guided by those alone then things are perfect or at least near-perfect. Honestly this really confuses me. Why is it that these naives likes and preferences are so harmless? Couldn’t there be a naive ingenuous like/preference for something harmful? Experientially I don’t find this to be an issue or concern once I am in that state but because I don’t understand why it is this way, it is much harder to convince myself to be solely guided by the naive likes/preferences because I don’t intellectually understand. I guess it is just evidence of some connection to pure intent? Ultimately I am just tapping in to stream of benignity? And that benignity is simply a feature of the universe?
I find that when the social identity takes the wheel again, it starts trying to operate by judging which potential actions are harmful and which are harmless. Although it seems to just be pseudo-actualism morality at work. I think I get flashes of naive likes and preferences through the cracks though, and the social identity can easily dismiss them as harmful or self-centered, so I fail to ‘board the train’.
Or alternatively, a naive like or preference will tell me to not do something that I have labeled as ‘right’ and so I get out of touch with the stream of naivete that way. Is there anything I can understand to keep on track more? Or is it just a matter of courage essentially that leads to seeing it experientially over and over? Because I do find it to be an act of courage that leads to me tapping into that 'stream of naivete since I can’t be sure where it will lead exactly…
@hunterad it’s all very simple. You choose to be happy and harmless each moment again. I’m not sure I’ll call that courageous as such - although sure, some effort is required from time to time. The higher your baseline the stronger the link to pure intent. Pure intent is what you need to tell the difference between these things. Its only on self-immolating – or at least when one is virtually free that you are consistently naive. Until then this mess and inconsistency is what you have to settle for! You make your own bed in that sense.
Had that experience of experiencing that rich or magic thing that I don’t have a word for. Delight don’t do it justice… ‘intrinsic joy of experiencing’ maybe but ‘joy’ doesn’t work. Just that richness that Is THERE as part of being conscious (?)
And infinitude was part of it! I experienced that the universe was infinite and that this joy or delight came from that somehow. Informed me of it. It could go forever!
I am not ‘part of’ or ‘in’ the universe… (actual) I IS the infinite universe, experiencing itself, AS a human .
Just went with continuing to go into and experience that more. Seemed potentially infinite. Utter joy. And!! While showering. The delight was NOT a reaction to the senses! The pleasure of the senses didn’t affect’ it somehow.
TRULY UNCONDITIONAL. It was there regardless. Within that unconditionality (not even affected by such pleasurable things) there is the experience of the pleasure of the senses, where ‘delight’ now becomes a more appropriate term. Joy and delight in the pleasure of warm water and soap etc. But it didn’t affect the richness-magic-meaning-joy experience (me?) at all! It (me?) was there regardless. Apperceptive ? ?
I did not even realise until a few minutes after that it was a PCE, until ‘I’ came back. Then I saw that the “me” that I was just being, the actual me, was not this ‘me’ that ‘I’ am as a feeling-being. It’s a different me. But literally I didn’t notice this as I went from regular me to actual me. It was like I was just continuing to exist but now in a better way. But then ‘feeling-being-me’ came back and I saw ‘I ‘wasn’t that. ‘I’ do really have to ‘die’ for that to happen… even though i didn’t notice ‘my’ disappearance? WTF …
And the thought: “well look at me, I learned something today… because i was actually doing something and not just reading or thinking about it :D”
That’s awesome @claudiu. This richness is exactly what I was writing about the other day, about the memories from gaming when I was a child.
I like how you have distinguished the pleasure of the senses from this richness which seems intrinsic to consciousness being aware of being conscious. I know exactly the thing you are writing about! There is a depth to it that is so magical that it’s really difficult to convey this depth/richness with any words, they don’t seem to do justice to the infinite richness of what’s apperceived.
Very exciting stuff, I can tell it is definitely exciting for you because your posts are usually way less frantic
This seems to be it, it’s to do with infinity because to apperceive infinity means that the very definition of perfection and completeness is being experienced. There is only this place which means it’s complete beyond description. It means it’s impossible for anything more complete or more perfect to exist. It seems this richness is the direct experience of this fact! It’s got me all giddy now contemplating this.
This seemed super strange and trippy at the time but now I recognize it for what it is — anhedonic pleasure . That was the experience of anhedonic pleasure (or pain if it was pain)…
it’s also why the richness-experiential-innate-joy thing, “intense” isn’t quite the right word. “Intense” describes hedonic/affective pleasure, where if it is too much it is overwhelming. This one at first SEEMED like it could be ‘too much’, but it never was. It doesn’t appear to have a ‘cap’ in the way hedonic pleasure does. Those circuits don’t get overloaded in that way
Also ‘me’ as a feeling-being, all ‘I’ have is the hedonic pleasure haha. There’s no way to get ‘outside’ of it … it is such a paltry substitute for the anhedonic experience tho !!
The mind boggling thing here is that if this anhedonic pleasure (this richness) is the ‘default mode’ of experience when apperception is happening, that means it is intrinsic to the experience of anything and everything, that’s kinda wild. The closer I get to it experientially the more wild it is. It’s a world where this pleasure is everywhere all at once.
Now that quote finally makes sense to me - the one about ‘delight is what is humanly possible…from the position of delight one moves into marvelling at being here…’
Delight is ‘my’ gateway to that place where pleasure is intrinsic to experiencing. It is what ‘I’ can do as a feeling being to get close, then the ‘jump’ can happen.
A few hours ago I’ve had an experience of pure intent that experientially demonstrated to ‘me’ that it doesn’t matter what I do, peace is there to be accessed. It’s only me that gets in the way.
Previously I’d always gotten confused by having a taste of pure intent and then asking what I should ‘do’ to have fun / enjoy, but I’m doing that the ‘doer’ was jumping right back in, under the guise of ‘enjoying.’
This is an entirely different level of enjoying
Completely unconditional
Previously being tired has been a major trigger for me, as “how am I supposed to enjoy myself if I’m exhausted,” but now I’m just sitting in this peace.
When I looked into global warming before, I found I would alternate between believing in it and believing against it.
I would read “denier” websites and believe all the evidence was compelling. Then I would watch potholer54 video debunking it and believe in the “science” side. Then I’d read other sites replying to potholer’s point and believe against it. Then watch more pro-sites and believe for it, etc.
But once I was able to dig into the core of the premise, that it lays upon, and see the simple argument of why it doesn’t make sense – none of that happens anymore! I no longer believe in it or believe against it. It’s just that the argument makes perfect sense and is so simple to understand. It’s a factual basis.
The other thing that stood out as I wrote it is that – it is entirely possible to be wrong! It is refutable. It makes definitive statements that can be disproven with the right experiments. It is falsifiable, i.e. scientific. And if I see a counterargument that makes sense, my understanding will adjust. I suspect I won’t since Richard already spent weeks digging into it on one occasion, and definitely more since then (as Vineeto said they refreshed their memory on it and looked into anything new recently).
That doesn’t mean there isn’t a counterargument out-there or that it is valid… but just like with actual freedom and Enlightenment, someone already did all the work so it’s probably going to hold. But I will see for myself .
live from rock wall in El Potrero Chico
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