Biological/actual vs psychological/non-actual reaction/response

The Watercooler
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i am interested in the AF take on this -

The premise is that there are (genetic, neural-instinctive) biological responses - think of the approach/avoidance “response” demonstrated even by primitive animacules like single cell amoebae -

and then, at least in the human, there can be a “further” response layered on top of this instinctive-biological response (call it psychological) that is essentially the result of reflection upon that bio-response producing interpretation and projection that,

again at least in the human, often produces “suffering” beyond/in-addition-to the simple bio-response (approach/pleasure - avoidance/pain).

I assume in AF, if these “types” of response are BOTH recognized as distinct (??? i am not sure), then the first (bio-response) would be considered “actual” and the second (psychological) considered “real” (or at any rate not actual) - is that correct?

Any/all views welcome :slight_smile:

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Hi Dan,

Firstly note that there is no “AF take” on anything :smiley: . AF of course stands for “actual freedom”. However, actual freedom, along with actualism, are not worldviews, philosophies, schools of thought, etc. Rather, actual freedom is the state resulting from self-immolation, and actualism is entirely experiential, i.e. it is all about experiential reports, what happens, what works to become happier and more harmless, what doesn’t, etc.

What there are are facts… and the facts are plainly evident for everyone to see. And, when the facts are not known, there are opinions or suppositions or speculations, etc., where actualists will not necessarily agree because we are not all clones of each other :smiley: .

(Of course as actualists are still feeling-beings there will also be beliefs lurking as facts or opinions… but one of the tools to facilitate the actualism method is, of course, dismantling all said beliefs.)

Now, the approach/avoidance response in humans essentially refers to the pleasure/pain principle, which is essentially what hedonic tone is. Factually speaking, every experience as a feeling-being is affectively tinged with either a positive/‘good’ hedonic tone, or a negative/‘bad’ hedonic tone. This occurs before it reaches a feeling-being’s conscious perception - everything you experience already has this hedonic tone overlaid on the pure/bare experience itself.

Note that this does not come from the result of interpretation or projection or reflection, but rather happens instinctively/intuitively, and there is no way to shut it off besides going into abeyance (i.e. a PCE) or becoming actually free. It is innate, inherent to being a feeling-being, that the world is experienced this way.

Of course, this hedonic-tone complex disappears upon becoming actually free - the pleasure/pain principle vanishes, there is no more approach/avoidance response. (see: Selected Correspondence: Hedonism & Anhedonia , “hedonic-tone complex”, which links to the full reply at Mailing List 'AF' Respondent No. 74 ).

Concomitant with the evolution of hedonic tone has also been the evolution of various reflexes or responses, such as the startle response - suddenly pulling back when touching something hot or on, say, spotting a snake. This apparently is unrelated to the affective hedonic-tone / pleasure/pain principle because it continues to happen in actually free people. Yet, while in a feeling-being the startle response would be immediately followed by a feeling-reaction and negative hedonic tone, this latter part doesn’t occur anymore (see: Frequently Asked Questions – What are Instinctual Passions?, “startle response” ).

Speculatively, I would say that the basic amoebae’s approach/avoidance ‘response’ evolved into the affective faculty itself, predicated upon this basic good/bad out of which the rest arises… and separately from that the non-affective instinctual reflexes/responses. More than one way to skin the cat (i.e. survive in blind nature) :smiley: .

It is interesting to note that pleasure and pain themselves don’t cease occurring in a PCE, rather they are experienced anhedonically… which is quite a thing! I highly recommend you try it.

Cheers,
Claudiu

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:slight_smile: oh my aching eyes - i actually :slight_smile: shoulda said “i solicit the ‘take’ of anyone applying the approach(es) appearing on the AFT website”

I’ll endeavour to improve in future :slight_smile:

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I looked more into what you said about anhedonic pleasure and I came across this correspondence from Vineeto, which speaks effectively to the overall topic:

Today I find it strange that none of all the ‘oh so wise’ spiritual teachers really were able to make a distinction between sensations and feelings. I myself only learned to be precise when I came across Actual Freedom, and now the difference seems so obvious that I don’t know how I could have ever mixed the two!

Sensations are everything we perceive with our senses – touch, smell, taste, colour, form, sound, itch, pain, moisture, temperature, sexual pleasure, etc. Feelings are affective reactions to our surroundings.

When you have chocolate and coffee with ice-cream you mix sensation and feeling, the pleasure of the senses tasting sweet and bitter and then, consequently, you are ‘feeling’ good. But one doesn’t need ‘feeling’ to fully enjoy a cup of coffee with ice-cream, on the contrary, ‘me’ as a feeling identity acts as a buffer to the intensity of the sensate pleasure. ‘Feeling’ is only there as long as a ‘me’ is alive. ‘I’ am feelings and feelings are ‘me’, ‘I’ am fear and fear is ‘me’, ‘I’ am love and love is ‘me’. Check it out for yourself. You might find that you are conscious of the sensation and a split second later you have a feeling – or mixed feelings – about it. But in that first split second you were aware only of the physical sensation.

Similarly, some of these reflexive responses are experienced anhedonically in PCE / in the free person. Apparently an adrenaline response still occurs, for example, in moments where it is useful to ramp up the heart rate. But, with no affective panic / excitement occurring.

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Thanks @henryyyyyyyyyy (and @claudiu ) for posting these. In following the source correspondence @henryyyyyyyyyy , Vineeto also references this additional bit from Peter (while VF) here: Topics – Sensation

which i found very helpful in applying HAIETMOBA (ie; discriminating 1: cerebral (thoughts); 2: sensate (senses); 3. affective (feelings) experience)

below is what Vineeto said about what Peter said about … :slight_smile:

VINEETO: This question of yours fits in with the issue of the other letter about Vipassana, so I will combine the two letters. Today I find it strange that none of all the ‘oh so wise’ spiritual teachers really were able to make a distinction between sensations and feelings. I myself only learned to be precise when I came across Actual Freedom, and now the difference seems so obvious that I don’t know how I could have ever mixed the two! Peter has already explained the difference very well in his letter to No. 3 the other day:

sensation –– The consciousness of perceiving or seeming to perceive some state or condition of one’s body or its parts or of the senses; an instance of such consciousness; (a) perception by the senses, (a) physical feeling. b The faculty of perceiving by the senses, esp. by physical feeling. Oxford Dictionary

Peter: The three ways a person can experience the world are:

1: cerebral (thoughts); 2: sensate (senses); 3. affective (feelings).

The aim of ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’ is to become aware of exactly how one is experiencing the world and to investigate what is preventing one from being happy and harmless in this moment. It is therefore important to discriminate between the pure sensate sensual experiences, as in sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch, and the cerebral thought and affective feeling experiences that are sourced in the instinctual animal survival passions.

Feelings are most commonly expressed as emotion-backed thoughts – thoughts arising in response to the flooding of chemicals that originate from the animal instinctual brain, the amygdala. As the amygdala quick-scans the incoming sensorial input it is programmed to automatically respond with an instinctual reaction – essentially those of fear, aggression, nurture and desire.

The instinctual reaction is such that response-chemicals are almost instantly pumped into the body and neo-cortex and are most usually ‘felt’ in the head, heart and stomach areas. Fear produces hormones which quicken the heartbeat, tenses the muscles, and heightens the senses – ready for either ‘fight or flight’. When neither option is exercised one ‘freezes’ and the ongoing chemical input results in feelings of helplessness, doubt, angst, depression or dread. Jealousy, based on the nurture instinct, prepares the body to attack one’s competitor. Sexual desire similarly causes well-known reactions in the sexual organs, and so on. It is important to recognize that these reactions, while felt in the body as sensations, and interpreted by the brain as feelings, are actually instinctual passions in action – they are the very substance of ‘who’ we feel ourselves to be, deep down at a bodily level, in both heart and gut.

It is this emotional ‘self’-centred experiencing that prevents our direct sensate-only sensuous experience of the actual world of sensual delight, purity and perfection. ‘Who’ one thinks and feels oneself to be is but an elaborate extrapolation of this instinctual, fear-full animal ‘self’. This emotional, feeling interpretation – based on the sensations of chemicals flowing in the body and brain – results in feelings of loneliness, separateness and alienation from the world as it is. It is as though there is a veil or film over the actual that one yearns to break through – to become free of – in order to be fully alive, to actually be here, now.

It is entirely new territory to dare to question feelings, both those we arbitrarily denote as ‘good’ and those we label ‘bad’, but there is a fail-safe method of navigation through the maze of sensations produced by instinctual passions. The aim is always to facilitate in oneself peace and harmony – to become happy and harmless – and this sincere intent will prevent one from settling for anything less than the genuine article. The genuine article is you, the flesh-and-blood-body-only you, that seeks freedom from the feelings of malice and sorrow that ruin your happiness.

The path to Actual Freedom now offers a realizable and actual freedom from the insidious grip of instinctual passions. The Actual Freedom Trust Library

Sensations are everything we perceive with our senses – touch, smell, taste, colour, form, sound, itch, pain, moisture, temperature, sexual pleasure, etc.

Feelings are affective reactions to our surroundings.

When you have chocolate and coffee with ice-cream you mix sensation and feeling, the pleasure of the senses tasting sweet and bitter and then, consequently, you are ‘feeling’ good. But one doesn’t need ‘feeling’ to fully enjoy a cup of coffee with ice-cream, on the contrary, ‘me’ as a feeling identity acts as a buffer to the intensity of the sensate pleasure. ‘Feeling’ is only there as long as a ‘me’ is alive. ‘I’ am feelings and feelings are ‘me’, ‘I’ am fear and fear is ‘me’, ‘I’ am love and love is ‘me’. Check it out for yourself. You might find that you are conscious of the sensation and a split second later you have a feeling – or mixed feelings – about it. But in that split second you were aware only of the physical sensation. (…)

and then later she (Vineeto) says:

You see a flower, you become conscious that you see the flower; you become conscious of its form, colours, smell, moving in the breeze and then you become conscious of the delight of your perception, of you being able to see, smell and know about it too. You are conscious of your being conscious. That’s it.

When the Human Condition is in operation, when ‘I’ interfere in the pure seeing of the flower, there is evaluation, feeling, choice, complaint, desire, hope, sadness, anger, etc. You can slowly, slowly become aware of all those emotions in operation, interfering and destroying the pure delight of living in this perfect universe. This ‘I’ is nothing but feelings, beliefs, emotions and instinctual passions, filtering everything that you see, hear, smell, touch, taste and think. When you dismantle the ‘I’ by examining everything that is not actual then you can be here, in this moment, in this place, eyes seeing, ears hearing and brain thinking. Everything else is but a passionate fantasy and imagination.

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here is another impactful Vineeto quote:

When one stops to observe, there is a myriad of sensations happening each moment and usually we don’t bother noticing because we are so busy feeling and thinking something else. But then, what can be more thrilling than sensately feeling alive, just sitting or lying on the couch, or tasting some food, listening to the sounds of the night, the clock ticking away …

Our senses are usually strictly filtered by the censor in the primitive brain and one only perceives a small percentage of the incoming sensual information. Further, the preoccupation of ‘me’, the instinctual identity, with emotions and beliefs makes pure sensate experiencing a rarity. The psychological self in the neo-cortex and the instinctual self in the amygdala are programmed to give a feeling interpretation of all sensual input. In order to avoid merely suppressing one’s emotions one has to roll up one’s sleeves and progressively deprogram one’s brain so as to be able to more freely experience the delight of one’s senses without the suffocating layer of feelings and emotions.

also from: Vineeto – SC Sensation and Sensuousness

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Wow, this is a fantastic treatment of emotions. Thanks for finding this, I made a new post of this information.

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This squares with my PCEs, so often I’ve been gobsmacked by information from the world coming in… that had always been right in front of me but which ‘I’ had always bypassed

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