Something of my childhood naivete is peaking out from behind the looming edifice of being an authoritative ‘man’.
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Again totally relatable…though I never wanted to be an authority. You are damned for what you do and for what you don’t do.
There is no winning…no moment of perpetual success in that realm.
When they have a chance to upgrade though, they will take it ruthlessly. I used to have women on a pedestal like the human condition wasn’t so bad in them as it is in men…so silly to think that now.
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Yes, damned before one starts!!
I was a classic pedestal builder. That’s another who book’s worth of explaining that one.
What I am thinking about right now is what to do when there are no rules?
I am like Agent Smith. Unplugged. What to do and say?
I want to talk with her. The question to myself was “what do I hope to get out of that?” A ten minute audio recording later, and there is some more clarity. I know that I say I want a partner interested as I am in actualism. Do I?
With only a few days old commitment to feeling good, that’s a stretch really.
I am in a situation without rules.
I don’t want to upset myself. Though part of me is clearly upset. So, too late on that front.
Peace. Clarity. Integrity.
Such new words to me.
I don’t need to seek out a new rule, there is only one thing that counts when considering what to do. What direction is the peace in? The clarity? What has the most genuine naivete going for it?
Still undecided. So, best not to risk needless drama upsetting my new resolve and results.
Time will show all.
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I like the Agent Smith unplugged reference lol. Freed from your programming lol.
I always think back to that line in the Matrix when Trinity and co try and get Neo to come with them and he wants to get out of the car and she talks him out of it.
Because you have been down there Neo, you know that road, you know exactly where it ends. And I know that’s not where you want to be.
How many times do we go down the same road expecting a new destination…a new outcome?
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Haha, I was just thinking about my two favourite phrases from my ‘god’ years;
“If you keep doing what you have always done, you will get what you always got”
&
“There is plenty more where that came from”
There are plenty more women who will be unconvinced by what I say! Why sweat over this one?
Yes, need some trial and error in there.
Now that there is no physical side to my relationship, I really notice that craving for physical intimacy. It really isn’t even about my wife or love, just some need to feel hugged, or touched or kissed. To have somebody in close proximity.
Hmm, that is a tough road.
I spent years in that insane situation. Not years between sex, but by the end a month or more, maybe 3? I can’t remember.
Only one time can I remember a genuine feeling of mutual affection. A soft touching in the dark.
My own rejection of myself was a factor. I don’t know how much. Maybe more than 50%? Significant I guess.
I know you reject yourself. I remember you clearly explaining it many times.
I wonder, as a curiousity, what would happen if you didn’t reject your body?
I have no magic bullets to offer on that front. I spent a lifetime hating this body. Days feeling good recently.
I remember trying to increase the romantic actions to improve our sex life. Leaving notes, buying flowers. She called it creepy.
I remember a time I would keep a diary and rate the sexual encouters. Very unromantic, because I seem to remember she was aware of that. I may have even been openly doing it.
But hey, I was playing my part. Building a house with my own hands , pushing at work, earning the best money I could. The least I could expect was some freaking effort in the bedroom.
Funnily, she used to cook great food. She would forcefully say “this is how I love you”.
I couldn’t have been less impressed. Give me microwave dinners and a frisky wife, 11 times out of 10🤣
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I don’t remember a genuine conversation in 17 years.
Yes, very much so. I am working on this, as I have mentioned I notice in felicitous moments and EE’s there is no rejection or disgust. I just see a body without any feeling tone projections.
Oh wow, so harsh. I have always ended up with such harsh women because I guess I liked the certainty of knowing when I annoyed or irritated them. I didn’t want the torture of ambiguity. If only I could have found a woman who was open and straightforward but super mellow lol.
Our relationship is at a crossroads and I don’t think there is anything I can do to reconcile that to be honest. My previous transgressions with porn and instagram are like a betrayal to her. Yet there were times when I caught her engaging in sexual flirtatious texts with another man, she conveniently wiped all messages when confronted before. Her transgressions are edited out of history, like non events.
She has always been a more dominant, stronger personality than me I guess. Always feels she has to sort and make the decisions and there is truth to that. Living with someone who has been battling depression and anxiety hasn’t been fun. I find it funny that it is as I am improving though that she has felt to want to shift things this way.
We have had genuine conversations, maybe not enough. But they often seem to lead to conflict or clashes.
The ultimate fantasy if ever I read it!!!
That tops anything porn could produce.
I remember a comedian joking about a couple getting along, watching something the both wanted to watch, and having a peaceful evening. He jerked off to it!!
The last decade of being interested in actualism was really just to answer the question “is this what you really want?”
Yes. It is.
Very interesting discussion on love. I’d like to put my two cents forward. In my life love has manifested as a fantasy of two prominent beliefs:
-
I can make love a primary purpose in my life.
This came from my life basically sucking before I found love, and once I was with a woman, the feelings were so good that I made it my primary purpose in life to acquire and secure these feelings. This belief eventually shattered for me though, and I realized that it’s kind of crazy to put someone on a pedestal and build a life around them. It puts pressure on them and on your relationship. And it makes you very unattractive. -
My partner is my security blanket.
I think this comes from looking for your mother in your partner. Maybe it’s the same for women, I don’t know. If we’ve had a decent relationship with our parents, we know of the security that we found when we had the mother (approving force) who would give us love, comfort, listen to our stories, and provide warmth. We also had the father (disapproving force), who set boundaries for us, gave us our moral education, and reprimanded us if we stepped out of line. The mothering and fathering forces are not tied to the sex of the parent, it would vary in every set of parents, I am just saying the general case. As an adult, we have not really grown up. We disseminate the search of these two forces into our environment. Our friends provide us with both approval and disapproval. And our partner (with the promise of love) provides the ultimate approval and disapproval. Their power (which you have willingly given them) extends beyond that of your parents, for they can approve your sexual worthiness too. But it’s easy to see that such an arrangement can never lead to peace. As long as I seek approval or disapproval from someone, I can never live peacefully with them. It seems our social identity is built on this search and grasping for acceptance, coming from the acceptance we once felt (or didn’t) in our childhood. So why can’t we accept/approve ourself? This feels “wrong” in a way. Like, who are you to approve yourself? Who gave you the authority? This leads into the gregarian instinct or group/herd mentality. Approving myself means I will be completely alone. Without a need for acceptance, I will not be able to relate to other identities in the same way. I will be “kicked” out of the group, go hungry, and die. And I think this is pretty primal in a way. So we each carry with us a bucket load of shame/self-rejection, because the amelioration of said self-rejection is the unending search for approval.
WOW lot of rambling. All of this is just observation of my own feelings with some psychology to back it up, do with it what you will. 
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Yeah that was quite a ride reading your post @frank_otto ! What stood out to me is that there will come a point where ALL of the above will disappear into oblivion. All of those ultra complex and real power plays that we are all describing with such detail have no existence whatsoever in the actual world, that is pretty outstanding to contemplate. They are like ramblings or echoes of something that has no actual existence at all. Of course that’s not to say there is no benefit in the exploration and sharing of it all, but in the end it’s all over nothing, I can see that.
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Thanks for sharing!
Where are you in the mix of all that now?
I think it’s a nice version of the situation which I experience in more extreme corners. Well, I am making it out to be extreme, as, it’s all a passionate play that I am deciding the outcome of.
I was reflecting on being relevant in a woman’s drama. That, regardless of her actual feelings ( the degree of desire, the degree of the “built up” love etc) being relevant seems to be what is going on for me.
I used Claudia’s advice; whatever you are thinking about is what the issue is. No need to go searching for something spectacular from the depths.
Sounds about exactly right 
I would say I’ve minimized belief 1. I no longer think I can make a life solely out of a woman’s love. And this has eased a lot of pressure in my life around other women too. Even in social contexts, I am no longer driven to the same extent. The fantasy is half dead.
I am still stuck in belief 2. Because of the shattering of belief 1, I am no longer AS driven to seek approval. But I am still scared of disapproval.
The ending of a belief seems to be a process (and not a linear one at all). You go back and forth, contemplating things, contrasting feeling good with bad/good feelings. Until one day you’ll be out doing something and “pop”, you realize how stupid what you’ve been doing is. Even then it may come back, but it’ll be much weaker.
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Circling around. Yes.
Forever if not for the advice here and on the AFT.
Frankly, I can’t fathom how Richard, Peter & Vineeto even did this at all.
No AFT to read.
No forum.
Just the determined effort to change, completely and irrevocably.
Amazing.
I saw tonight how important that commitment to feeling good is. It’s not just about feeling good feels good, it’s the only way to “find oneself” to stop returning to the resentments.
I found myself circling back to resentment of her. @Kub933 quote from Peter, and my renewed determination to read carefully stopped me in my tracks.
So I put on the movie I had been watching the last couple of days and forgot about the whole thing.
Great movie called “The Game” with Michael Douglas 1997. Had me in tears at the end.
The words “Lost, lonely, and very cunning” came to me. How easily I was back to twisting the insights into being completely selfish into just her being completely selfish.
I knew something I preferred to love, so it was never my primary focus and I loved creativity more but I wanted to know it through and through. However, I still chased the highs and behaved in the same way you have described here. I have no life of my own almost, it makes me seem super pathetic too I guess.
Yes, my situation was like this too. However, my mum had to work so much and nights as my dad was ill and so I would rarely see her which definitely had a weird impact on me. There was nobody to counter my dads harshness. My wife is more like my dad in personality than my mum…which is weird I guess lol. My mum is a really compassionate and accepting person, I have never had a relationship with somebody like that.
I have been reaching similar conclusions investigating the choices I have made and my behaviour in my marriage and previous relationships.
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While I was still emotional from the movie, another aspect of the “love brochure for dummies” floated up.
“Women must be protected at all costs, especially beautiful women”.
I could have walked away in the first year of marriage. At any point in any relationship. But, this aspect of survival/reproductive programming was automatically there. Why?
There was no threat to their survival at all. I live in the richest per capita country on the planet , with an extensive social security network and plenty of jobs.
At no time we’re any of the women in my life in real danger, yet I was compelled to protect them, to the point of sacrificing any peace.
Why? Not sure. I don’t want to jump ahead.
It is such an easy spiral to do. Feelings always feel like some important outcome must come with them, especially the strong ones. Unrequited love…surely something will happen here. Being in love…surely something amazing will happen here now…but nothing has ever delivered. Most of the case, just created more stress, fear and suffering. But sometimes the positive feelings make you self censor all the shit you are feeling. Like you are your own spin doctor, trying to sell the relationship to yourself.
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