A lot makes sense here. Being interested in powers as a strategy is relative to wanting to fulfill my desires.
-Adam
Hey Adam, I would also be interested to hear what the desires might be, because what is to say that achieving something desirable is going to be more difficult whilst enjoying and appreciating vs going down the spiritual path.
As a thought experiment, let’s say I wanted to make a million, what is it about the spiritual powers that would make this easier than if I am feeling felicitous and innocuous each moment over?
When feeling felicitous I might find that I never actually wanted this million, I was just using this fantasy as a way to give my life some meaning or sense of importance but assuming that this is an actual goal one has, why is it easier to accomplish via the spiritual?
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Also there’s nothing wrong per se about wanting to fulfill your desires. I distinctly remember when I talked with Richard on the phone 5-6 years ago, I said that I desired a girlfriend but that I see it is silly to pursue the desire because it’s more sensible to be happy regardless of whether I have a girlfriend or not etc… and he said that the way I’m going on about desire I sound a bit buddhistic! And he suggested that if I desired a girlfriend that I should go get one! (Good advice btw lol)
So I don’t mean to advise that you should attempt to stop desiring things. Although desire can get diminished and minimized along with other ‘good’ and ‘bad’ feelings, for me anyway it doesn’t work to simply have an intent to stop desiring. It’s more an experiential thing of seeing if it’s sensible to go for it, to then go for it if it seems to make sense, to observe the process, how ‘I’ tick in wanting and pursuing it, is it sensible or silly to enjoy while doing it? And then if I succeed I can see if it made sense to desire it in the first place (a great vantage point lol), if I fail then I will have tried and I’ll be better informed whether it makes sense.
Rather I was more getting to the root of the matter, namely whether pursuing powers is necessary and/or effective and/or sensible, as a way of accomplishing things.
I don’t have any experience with powers as a way of manifesting things - I never tried it - so I’d be curious to hear about your successes and failures with it. But as an example only, someone might attempt to use powers to find a girlfriend or find a soulmate. They might set an intention or cast a spell or consult the stars etc. They might try to bend the universe to their intention, to make or manifest a girlfriend for them. And they might do this and find that it worked! They didn’t have a girlfriend before, they used powers, and they do now. The conclusion would be that powers work and how can one have done it without them?
And if the powers don’t work, the likely conclusion is they didn’t use them properly or the conditions weren’t right etc… ie it’s not the powers themselves that are suspect but rather the person trying to use them or something else. So powers maintain their elevated status.
Whereas what I did was to go on all the dating sites I could, work on my profile and initial messages to get more replies, read advice on the internet of how to do it, go on as many first dates as I could, and from those go on the second dates that I liked, etc… and after a few months (with very disheartening zero replies at first lol) I started getting those dates and then I was able to find someone I liked that we got along and to pursue a relationship with them.
To me the latter approach is far superior to the powers approach (though again I’ve never tried powers). Because there’s nothing mystical about it. It’s just really straightforward. You want a girlfriend… you go to where the girls are, and work on improving your social skills until you can meet and date them, you then meet as many as possible and eventually you’ll find someone you are compatible with. Or if it isn’t working you’ll be able to figure out why - maybe you look in the wrong place, or the conversations are off-putting or awkward, etc… and then you can fix the approach - look somewhere else, improve your conversation skills etc. If it doesn’t work it always can become clear why, with enough patience and diligence (and a good sense of humor helps).
Further I find that’s just simply the way any aspect of life works. If you want to accomplish or do something, you figure out what it takes to do it and then you do it. You keep trying until 1- you succeed, 2- you realize you’re not willing to put the effort in to succeed so you stop, or perhaps 3- you realize you aren’t in a life position to be able to do it (eg you want a $10 million house with a small salary? Not the likeliest to happen soon lol. Or maybe another scenario and you don’t have the skills to make it happen. ), or 4- you stop because you see it doesn’t make sense to do it anyway. Incidentally all 4 outcomes have the effect of resolving the desire one way or another.
It’s all very prosaic … … but remarkably effective! And I don’t see why I wouldn’t be able to follow the same approach if I were actually free.
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I don’t think I could express myself appropriately on this topic in writing.
This is the same advice that Vineeto gave to me. She referenced I think I remember that if I desired something and it interfered with actualism, it may be worthy to achieve that desire first. This where I am at now. There are a few things I want really really badly and I guess I see “spiritual” strategies as being effective within ‘reality’ to achieve those desires.
Part of those strategies is Cause and Effect like you mention above, but there are other “spiritual ideas” like external reality manifestation being an extension of state of being and that alignment. Spirituality also addresses emotional damage where a pragmatic go and get it approach may not. But then those giving said spiritual advice often lead to the idea of immortal consciousness.
There are two things I see as preventing me from wanting to be actually free. One is I desire a few other things really really badly. Second is that I can’t have PCE’s at will or relatively often so I feel I can’t make a rational decision on choosing to go into the Actual World let alone having that ability.
Yet an interesting thing is that though PCE’s remain elusive, Pure Intent as an energy is easily accessible.
I’m not sure what “Cause and Effect” (capitalized) is in the context of spiritual strategies, but what I mentioned above was not a spiritual strategy in any way whatsoever.
Hmm… … as ‘external reality’ is automatically created by ‘me’ then it makes sense that ‘my’ state of ‘being’ would indeed cause a different ‘external reality’ to manifest.
For example, walking in the park late at night, a person being fearful may experience a scary, dark, ominous place filled with threats that they can’t wait to get out of. While a person enjoying themselves may experience a leisurely stroll in the moonlit night, enjoying the illumination of the moonlight on the trees and the pathway. They are ultimately both walking through the same actuality, but the ‘reality’ they experience is very different.
However this ‘reality’ is illusory at best and delusory at worst, and has nothing to do with the things that are actually happening.
So the question is, what are some of the “few things” that you “want really really badly”? If they are things or accomplishments in the spiritual realm then obviously you can’t pursue actualism while pursuing those as they are incompatible. But if they are things in the world of people, places, and things, then perhaps you could make the choice to pursue them using strategies compatible with actualism?
I know of another body of techniques and experiential goals that address emotional damage… … it starts with an A and rhymes with Bactualism.
Can you give an example of one that doesn’t?
This is a bit of specious reasoning. It’s like saying that something is preventing me from wanting to drive… namely that I don’t know how to drive well and haven’t driven much so I can’t make a rational decision on choosing to drive.
The point being that you don’t need to choose to permanently go into the actual world right away, just like you don’t need to get into the seat of a racecar and start racing right away. Baby steps. The starting point is allowing the possibility that it may be sensible to feel good, to enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive, as opposed to not feeling good / not enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive. Then you set out to feel good more and more consistently, employing the techniques that have proven to be effective within actualism (see flowchart).
In parallel with doing all this, you can become more aware of and receptive to pure intent, and gain familiarity and experience with loosening the controls a bit, particularly in moments of having fun with what you’re doing anyway, and this can lead to EEs. Then you could develop a knack for allowing EEs to happen (in my experience it’s easier to have EEs happen than PCEs).
Once you get the knack of that somewhat then you will be in a better position to see how to go about allowing PCEs to happen – though you don’t have to wait until you get good at EEs to try it (it’s not a linear thing), it will make it likely more successful.
And then you can keep doing all this until you have sufficient PCEs to see whether the actual world is somewhere you do want to reside permanently. All the while you will of course be living your life, enjoying the fruits of living relatively happily and relatively harmlessly.
But if you never go down the path in the first place because you aren’t already a master expert at having PCEs… … then you never will get the knack of it and never will know if the actual world is something for you.
Hmm… if that is so, then, I am curious, what if you re-read this entire thread while accessing pure intent as much as possible? What comes up for you when you do that?
You can only do what you feel comfortable doing or else you end up feeling bad.
There’s something to be said for taking a little risk - there’s an excitement in getting into something big!
But of course the only one who can make that choice is ‘me.’
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Ha… as this isn’t true for everyone - it can be quite fun and thrilling to do things one isn’t comfortable with - then what you mean to write is:
That may be the case now, but if you do a thorough exploration you will find that there is nothing about doing things you aren’t comfortable with that in and of itself necessitates feeling bad.
Such an exploration would likely be uncomfortable to do, though, at least at first… so you’re in a bit of a pickle.
I guess I can put it to you like this: do you really want to spend your whole life living in your comfort zone?
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@adam_b, you were quite enthused with actualism and actual freedom and then went through a bad patch. That is a private matter and I’m not wanting to intrude, but I’m wondering how your life experience may have turned you away from actualism - if not completely, then at least in part.
From what you are saying, it sounds like the pursuit of actual freedom doesn’t help with or maybe even actively interferes with the pursuit of material goals? You want to stay in the matrix so to speak and see how far you can go with ‘reality’ and the enticements it offers - you are not yet done with it. Spiritual stuff can help where actualism can’t?
I guess its hard to know where you are coming from without some more detail.
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It’s more that an actual freedom is not my main goal currently, where it was for around a decade prior. I had these desires during that time that I never focused on fully, and as such never achieved them (for a variety of reasons). Then about 3 years ago I went through a pretty severe depression and anxiety disorder that took a long time to recover from.
Part of the reason for that depression was not achieving those goals and regretting opportunities I missed by not focusing on them i.e. an opportunity would go by and because I wasn’t fully focused on that goal, the opportunity would pass by without being seized.
Whether that’s right or wrong I have these deep desires I feel I need to accomplish and therefore am putting them ahead of becoming actually free.
That said, people around me blamed Actual Freedom for ignoring my other desires and as some “cult” type belief. I was so deep in a depression and an anxiety disorder for a while that I couldn’t see a way out but I knew that a PCE exists regardless of “me” and “my” feelings.
So I think I am still learning. Before my primary was Actual Freedom and second, biological urges/goals or whatever. Now, my primary is accomplishing what I want to accomplish. But, then, or all the time, sweet pure intent becomes part of my experience and proves there is something non-spiritual to the universe that is wonderful and protective from the human condition.
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@adam_b thanks for being so open. I get it now. I think your position is very understandable.
How one takes up the wide and wondrous path and at what stage in life can make a big difference.
I came into actualism later in life than you and once I mostly had my career on track. To some extent I had gotten some ‘real world’ draws out of my system by then. Peter, Vineeto and Richard came into it even later in life. So there is precious little said in the AFT about someone that is younger and are still figuring themselves and the world - what the potential pitfalls are. A self probably needs to be well formed before it can be given up.
Spiritual practise end even actualism can easily become this seductive bubble that you can use to deny your own nature or to paper over deficiencies. You can end up floating around being quite ineffective in the world.
Now that you’ve got a more secure footing in the marketplace, actualism can become even more effective for you and for your life goals. There’s no need to even consider AF until you want to,
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I think this may be the way to go in terms to actualism. Although it seems true that you have to have being happy and harmless as the primary goal in life to succeed with actualism … … the question is, how does one get it to that point of being the primary goal?
I believe I made this mistake also where I took it as a sort of license to ignore my desires, wants and needs - no doubt influenced by my spiritual background which advised essentially not changing anything in your life if you’re unhappy. But the problem is that, at least in my case, I hadn’t actually made being happy and harmless my primary goal in life - I was neither happy nor harmless - I just sort of felt like I did.
Making changes that resulted in a better job and relationship situation, led to me having a lot more success with actualism - because these were things that were making me unhappy, and, really, why not improve the factual circumstances of one’s life?
Also once those improved greatly I saw there was still dissatisfaction with life - and now I knew it as an experiential fact as opposed to “well I believe it’s not worth pursuing because people on the Internet said it still wouldn’t be the be-all end-all of life”. So then actualism made more sense.
But in short I would say what happened for me is I went from feeling like being happy and harmless is my primary goal in life (though it wasn’t), to acknowledging that it wasn’t and making life changes - which is a step in the right direction because it’s more sincere.
Having the sweet and innocent pure intent always readily available, also seems to ensure you can always find your way back when you are ready. Though I am seeing that just because I am able to be aware of pure intent, does not mean that I will go down the path - I have to actively engage and do it. Otherwise it won’t happen.
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@adam_b I want to echo srinath’s appreciation of you being so open about this. I can certainly relate to what you are talking about here. I got into buddhism when i was 16/17 and then got interested in actualism when i was 18 (i’m 28 now). I was so driven by the idea of actual freedom or enlightenment (at first I was under the impression these were the same thing) that I never put much thought into other aspects of my life that are part of what makes someone happy. I’ve never been in a relationship that felt truly fulfilling and I never found a career path that felt anything like my “calling” or close to that. In general I haven’t applied myself to my non-actualism-related desires much at all, though they are certainly present.
Part of it surely was a buddhism ‘hangover’… and part was the general awkwardness and fearfulness of the competitive dangerous world that sent me retreating into a pursuit that I couldn’t be judged in by the people around me. I was still in highschool and then college with people who just seemed so much more confident and dynamic so I sought some refuge in the idea of a secret pursuit that was so superior to what everyone else was doing. Imperfect intentions to say the least, though even early on there was an undeniable trace of pure intent motivating me. I wanted to be happy and harmless in a pure way at least some of the time.
I would say I have been pretty self-aware about this, and a lot more so lately. My mixed intentions have become more transparent to me over time. Especially having started living with an old friend from college over the last year and seeing how our paths have diverged has been really interesting. In every tangible real-world category he is doing better than me… more well-formed hobbies/interests, better interpersonal skills, better network of friends/support, better romantic relationships, more lucrative employment etc. It has forced me to reckon with what could have been. Plus I have had plenty more “peeks” into what could have been through 10 years of life experience. A few times I have felt the need to expose myself as much as possible and pursue real-world values to see what they are all about… which is what led me into a couple of awkward summer flings with women and communal living at a farm in Hawaii… it was never whole-hearted though. It felt quite impossible to try to wholeheartedly pursue such things when I already had at least a smidgeon of insight (plus some belief) that they weren’t ultimately fulfilling.
I suppose the question is whether my experiences are enough to be sufficiently disenchanted with those real-world draws. Ultimately i’m sure only my ongoing experience will answer this question for certain. I’ll break off a separate thread to get into the nitty-gritty of how I experience trying to ‘give up’ a less well-formed self. @Srinath what you wrote here applies to me especially this:
A self probably needs to be well formed before it can be given up.
Spiritual practise end even actualism can easily become this seductive bubble that you can use to deny your own nature or to paper over deficiencies. You can end up floating around being quite ineffective in the world.
I’m very interested in your feedback even though practicing actualism from this position is not what your experience was (it seems?). Going to work on that more nitty-gritty description now. Also @adam_b thanks again for sharing which has helped me to put more of my cards on the table here.
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This sentence is so bizarre to me. Again, zero spiritual background. It is like the default position among humanity is that spirituality is proven. Some collective felt out truth.
The majority of humans, those following organised religion or sprituality have things in reverse. The burden of proof is on the claims of their beliefs. They just feel it to be right or true, rather than know. A lack of curiousity perhaps.
Makes me realise how different I already was from most of humanity before AF. Like not being part of the party, not getting picked for the team.
We might be puny humans in our tiny spinning blue space rock, but we understand about energy and matter quite a lot now, the types, constinuents, how these states are in constant flux. Energy and matter we know are interchangeable too, the insights of E = mc^2. Nothing points towards a type of energy in some permanent unchanging form, i.e. an infinite or eternal soul.
Karma, to me sounds ridiculous too. I mean Pol Pot got to die in his sleep the lucky duck. If ever a human being deserved to face the full force of karma it was that guy. He should have instantly mutated into a coackroach and got squished. What is it about karma that appeals to people?
It is hard to understand the appeal of spirituality. Doesn’t the authenticity and the facticity of things hold weight. I really dont get the appeal. As so many of you have come from this background it makes me realise there is a fundamental aspect of you all that I don’t understand. I guess I don’t like not knowing.
Don’t get me started on how I see quantum mechanics and other quantum phenomena co-opted for types of spirituality. Like it keeps mutating and evolving.
I am not trying to be an a-hole here @adam_b just trying to make headways into understanding what appeal these things have to you and others.
Being an emotional being results in suppression of intelligence, I’ve experienced it myself many times going both directions. So most people are existing in something of a fog. From a fog, it’s easy to imbibe things that don’t make much sense.
Further, certain principles are considered sacrosanct and to question them results in fear flaring → and therefore that same intelligence suppression. The loss of love is an example of such.
From this perspective, it all makes sense. A lot of what constitutes the ‘wall’ around humanity is a fog of confusion, created by our fears.
Consider how many scientists are somehow able to happily continue believing in God… or those that are happy to say “I don’t know” and cease questioning there.
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Hi @henryyyyyyyyyy,
I can relate to my intelligence being impacted by strong emotions. This brain fog happens in anxiety and depression too so I understand what you mean.
There is nothing in my life that has ever been sancrosanct unquestionable. I have no experiential link here. There were subjects my family were less comfortable talking about but they were not sacrosanct.
Yes, in most cases it is the belief system they were raised in. Or they converted to one that made them feel good. Again arbitrary parameters. I have seen also when a scientist won’t put aside their ego when their theory or model is incorrect or incompatible.
At uni, I met people so much smarter than me and yet so afraid to challenge their belief system or parents. I realised I might not have their intelligence or capability but I had a different freer way to play and explore with the world.
I had a type of freedom in my upbringing not many people can ever understand. I never felt bound to any belief, scientific theory, etc. There were no barriers to curiosity other than my accessibility to knowledge and the technical limitations.
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I think with some further looking you could answer your thee questions you pose here regarding the appeal of these things. It’s likely you have and you’re having a hard time understanding why others don’t see it the way you do. Is that fair?
I get the impression that Pure Intent is somehow non-spiritual and non-feeling based. But as someone who doesn’t experience it overtly, as some describe, I too share you’re musings.
I can say that the appeal to Pure Intent, for me, is that I need the help!
I am genuinely not 100% sure…is it that it offers some form of eternal existence? Validity to their existence. It is is very fair to say that I am having a hard time understanding. I don’t think I ever tried to understand.
These ideas/beliefs never met the criteria of validity or objective authenticity that has operated in me.
If I am honest, once it failed that internal check it was open game to attack it. Hence, I have attacked and struck out and never genuinely sought to understand the appeal. Religion, i think i get in the sense of being reared in that religion, as one is reared in a national culture. But many people seem to come to spirituality from other belief systems and the absence of belief, I have met atheists and agnostics who then gravitated to spirituality.
Richard alludes to something experiential and tangible and there is a transparency in what he writes.
Whereas other things seem wishy washy to me.