Kub933's Journal

Journals
30

I must have misinterpreted or incompletely interpreted @rick’s original post, as I don’t quite understand what Rick said that merited your and @claudiu’s posts… They are obviously opposites/divergent from Rick’s post, but I fail to see where Rick said what merited your comments/responses.

It was clearly a “Rick-like” post (written to kick the board around, provoke, make us think, etc.), but I didn’t perceive that he said anything essentially different than what had been said; so I must be kind of lost…

If you can/want to, it would be helpful if you could summarize/point out what specifically originated this back and forth.

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31

OK so the main thing which might clarify what it is that I am pointing to is mentioned in the ASA article - Attentiveness And Sensuousness And Apperceptiveness

The bit I am specifically referring to is the following - This moment of soft, ungathered sensuosity – apperceptiveness – contains a vast understanding, an utter cognisance, that is lost as soon as one adjusts one’s mind to accommodate the feeling-tone … and subverts the crystal-clear objectivity into an ontological ‘being’ … a connotative ‘thing-in-itself’

My initial post was regarding the boundries as experienced in the real world and how in actuality there is no such boundries however there is still the ability to distinguish and discriminate.

It appears that what @rick is attempting to do is to use a more general intellectual probing of the topic surrounding distinctions, as you mentioned @Miguel to provoke thought, make us think etc.

However in that sense @rick’s post does not stay relevant to the topic at hand. Because the crux of it all is not to explore in just how many ways we can arbitarily separate or unite the universe via our minds, this keeps the discussion within the terms of life as experienced in the real world.
My main intent is to observe the fundamental error in perception which arises out of ‘being’ ie - "and subverts the crystal-clear objectivity into an ontological ‘being’ … a connotative ‘thing-in-itself’"

The point being that it does not matter wether a European has 1 word for snow and the Inuit has 7, because the very action of subverting pure perception into an ontological ‘being’ is still taking place, it is just that this has now more ways to divide and more ways to unite. But fundamentally nothing has changed.

So I guess my main question for you @rick would be wether you are looking to have a intellectual probing into the various ways in which we distinguish/unite the world via our minds or wether you are interested in uncovering that which skulks behind and causes the confusion in the first place? My assumption was that it was the latter which I think may be the reason for the apparent conflict in the first place.

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32

Thanks!
Your words reinforce my affinity for the old “Reader’s Digest” :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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33

The thrust of Rick’s post is that discernment / distinction is ultimately arbitrary and that it is ultimately up to us as humans per se to say what is what, what delineates one thing from another.

This might appear superficially correct, but it’s clear what he is getting at in the context of his other posts - namely he is making the case that ultimately any distinction between ‘me’ as a feeling-being, and the universe itself, is equally arbitrary / equally up to ‘humans’ to make. In Rick’s understanding, Richard and the rest of us are arbitrarily labelling ‘me’ as feeling being / feelings as ‘not actual’ / not pure / not existing etc., while in fact there is no such distinction to be found in the universe itself.

The critical mistake Rick is making here, which for example Grant also made, is that he is taking himself to be the ultimate arbiter of what is what, instead of the PCE which is entirely outside of ‘him’ and/or a connection to that purity experienced in the PCE via pure intent.

As Kuba put it well, in order for the contemplation to be fruitful it has to be pure, one must have a connection to that purity in place… With the PCE firmly in mind it becomes clear that the distinction between ‘me’ and the universe is not arbitrary / is not up to ‘me’, but rather is simply a matter of what-is-the-case. And it doesn’t matter whether Claudiu says it, or Kuba says it, or whether nobody says it at all – it doesn’t change the fact of the matter (i.e. it matters not whether any human is making any distinction – it remains to be the case, just as a rock is different from water whether a human is around to witness it and think about it or not).

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34

… Yeah …

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35

Yes what @claudiu describes also sums up what I am getting at very well. @rick My intent is not for this to come across as bashing you for just trying to have some fun with contemplation. I would think the reason why were are all here on this forum is to become actually free of the human condition, to actually do it. So probing and questioning these things is not just about intellectual masturbation or one-upmanship but that there is benefit to be gained for all by getting to the bottom of these things, by finding out the facts.

I was always hesitant to engage in these sort of discussions until that 25 or so minute PCE that happened for me directly after reading and contemplating @rick’s and @claudiu’s back and forth thread - Drawing the line between feeling and fact

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36

omg awesome!! I didn’t know , or maybe knew and forgot, that that resulted in a PCE for you. That means it was worth it :smile:

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37

haha yeah you must have forgotten because you replied with something similar at the time, this was the post - Drawing the line between feeling and fact - #78 by Kub933

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38

Work has been quiet today so I have spent a fair bit of time re-reading some of the older posts on here. I have found some of the posts by Srinath and Geoffrey to be especially stimulating, this one has been on my mind since - Actualism and the Weird - #45 by Srinath

It has been so fascinating because I have been getting glimpses of this, of matter being not merely passive. It is interesting because as discussed in that thread, ‘I’ turn the physical world into something dead and mechanical and then project any enchantment into the spiritual realms.

But I started looking from the other angle, the angle of the PCE, where ‘I’ simply don’t exist, in fact in that world ‘I’ have never existed. Yet there is all this stuff happening, how could this universe ever be dead!

It is only because ‘I’ am the arbiter of existence and the physical is not ‘me’ as such it is seen as cold, dead, mechanical. Then this interesting flip happens when ‘I’ slip away and everything including this body is made of that same magical, effervescent stuff and there is only this stuff.
I was contemplating all this in the car at my lunch break and it seemed to be on a brink of a PCE, those experiences actually remind me of what Richard used to say “being on the verge of it happening/not happening”.
The other thing standing out was the sensuosity of the world around, including me, the colours and the shapes being so saturated that they are almost ridiculous, looking at the red jumper I am wearing today I couldn’t believe that the red could be so juicy. Then looking down at my hands I see that they are the very same scintillating, magical stuff.
At this point I realise/I am reminded that ‘I’ never existed in the first place.
I always struggled to accept what Richard describes, that as a flesh and blood body one is already pristine and perfect, that there is no differentiation between that Purity and this body.
The reason ‘I’ could never accept this is because ‘I’ know just how dirty ‘I’ am. What about the malice raging on inside ‘me’, what about the endless problems that ‘I’ cause, how could all this just be wiped clean like that, leaving nothing but purity and innocence.
Yet when that ‘flip’ happens everything is seen to be already perfect, including this body.
It is a very weird space I find myself in lately, it is like oscillating between a world where ‘I’ simply don’t exist/have never existed, where everything is already pristine, and then back into reality, although reality is getting very flimsy indeed! It’s becoming so easy to slip out of it.

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39

So my neck injury has been aggravated in training once more, something very interesting has come out of it all though.

I was sparring yesterday with my brother (who is well aware of the extent of the injury and how it affects me), during a wrestling scramble his hip made contact with my neck causing the injury to resurface.

Initially I dropped to the floor with my arm going completely numb. I have only just spent a few weeks in constant pain and with significant weakness in my right arm due to this thing.

The very first instinct was anger, somehow I had flipped the situation (which is nobody’s fault at all, it is a fact of doing what we do, injury can happen at any time) to be his fault, as in he was not doing something ‘right’ and that was the reason I was hurt.

While I was on the floor he asked me “how did it happen?” I began speaking and caught myself mid sentence as I was about the say “you hit me with your hip”.
This is precisely when I noticed the flip that has happened and so I nipped that in the bud, I replied with “I got caught in the head with your hip”.

However what became apparent after is the interesting part. I had dealt with my initial anger and blame following the incident however I was still in sorrow. There was thoughts/feelings of how this will affect my training, how I will be in a lot of pain, how ‘this always happens to me’, feeling helpless, feeling a victim etc.

It was at the moment that my brother said ‘I am sorry’ that the whole thing became clear to me. I realised immediately that it is not just my malice that has a deleterious effect on others, but my sorrow also! It is just harder to see because it can dress itself up under the guise of seeing solace, it is a more covert effect.

I could tell that although I had dealt with the anger, my brother felt my sorrow and as such he intuitively took it as an indication of his apparent wrongdoing and a need to apologise.
The instant thought that went through me at that moment was “why would I ever want to inflict this upon him”?
And even though I can say “oh don’t worry about it, its not your fault”, that does nothing, because he has already felt my sorrow and he has already assumed responsibility for it.
He will now have to turn to trusting me in order to ‘believe that I really mean it’ even though he knows deep down I do not. This has then the potential to become resentment in him as he realises that he is apologising for something that happened due to nobody’s fault, or even if he does not, and he becomes compassionate instead, he is still carrying the weight of my sorrow. As Richard writes in his journal, mutual intimacy is nowhere to be found in this whole process, it is actually such a rotten process and this dawned on me so clearly.

My relationship with my brother is really great, we have so much fun training and living together, I can tell how much he appreciates us spending time together, not just by his actions but because he tells me.

So why would I want to inflict this upon him! Not just my malice but also my sorrow. What I realised was that if I really want to be harmless, truly harmless, then I need to clean up not only my overt aggression, but even the subtle forms of sorrow.

I was driving home with a big smile on my face even though I sorta ‘fucked up’, because I know now what the goal is… to be harmless is to be unable to induce/contribute to any sort of suffering, be it via malice OR sorrow, in any form, no matter how subtle. It is a challenge and a challenge that I sincerely want to complete.

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40

Mornings are always a great time for me as ‘I’ seem to be especially out of the way. it’s like ‘I’ have not fully kicked into gear yet. I always aim to take this time to sit outside, enjoy a coffee and cigarette and allow contemplation.

This morning I was having the same experience I wrote about yesterday, of oscillating between ‘being’ and disappearing. It was a very powerful experience though, almost overwhelming at the extent of the actuality being experienced, it having the feeling of taking over.

Then it would settle somewhat and become smoother, it is so cool that the very instant that Actuality is experienced can never be mistaken, it is fresh each time even though I know it from past experience.

Each time there is that exquisite realisation that I am actually here as this body, the air caressing the skin, the actual smells and sounds all around, this can not be denied. From that experience it is also equally seen just how unreal ‘reality’ is, it’s like some outdated computer programme misfiring in the brain.

It is quite funny because this morning I was thinking “I don’t know how much closer I can get to allowing self immolation” and yet I remember countless times saying this in the past and yet each time getting further, or so it seems!

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41

It’s really difficult to nip in the bud, still in the heat of the moment, a reaction based on physical pain (even more so when one has the scapegoat at hand, like your brother).

You must be practicing actualism very well on a daily basis. Congrats

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42

Yeah I was hesitant to say nipped in the bud as there was still the sorrow underneath the anger, however the anger itself and the need to find a scapegoat was dealt with as soon as I noticed the ‘flip’ which occurred. The ‘flip’ being a movement away from seeing the facts of the situation (inevitable occurrence during hard sparring) and towards a belief in someone being at fault by doing something ‘wrong’. I think it was hearing the words that began coming out of my mouth that was like a slap to the face or an alarm ringing. Actually sorry to be specific the words did not come out of my mouth, it was as I went to speak.

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43

In order to “hearing the words that began coming out of my mouth” it is necessary to be in a state of relative separation from the self, which does not manifest within a few days of maintaining an adequate state of consciousness/awareness. Habituation is key

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44

Haha yes for sure, about 2 years of habituation so far! There are other instances where I will not catch it but this one worked :smiley:

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45

Actually this is a whole other post in itself but training MMA has been a really interesting way for the actualism method to be applied.

For example so many times during training I catch myself becoming overtaken by aggression, it is so easy in the heat of what is happening to just go with it, and many times I have.

But also I cannot help but notice each time it happens which means I am prepared to look out for it the next time and nip it in the bud.

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46

The other thing I have noticed lately is that often when I begin to contemplate self immolation I become somewhat emotionally overwhelmed.

It is a weird one, it usually starts in an experience of increasing purity, drawing me closer to my destiny, typically at this point I will begin somewhat pushing myself to do it, sometimes I end up moving closer to that purity but at times it has the effect of leaving me overwhelmed.

The thing I have noticed which is usefull is instead of continuing to push through this resistance (which is ‘me’) is to pretty much apply the ‘overwhelmed’ diagram pathway.
Basically notice that I am not going anywhere by getting progressively more overwhelmed, then I will simply allow myself to get back to feeling good and before I know it that purity is available again.
Then the next time around I can allow it more before I instinctively pull back.

Now the thing I am not sure about is wether that emotional response is because of my pushing or wether it is an inevitable result of moving closer to allowing self immolation to happen.

The other question is exactly what is this pushing? because ‘I’ cannot self-immolate ‘myself’ so what exactly am ‘I’ pushing ‘myself’ towards?
It seems I am pushing ‘myself’ towards the point of no return, perhaps this is why it inevitably brings up a strong emotional response.

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47

This was also something that I was going to ask you about, not from a moralistic point of view but from a pragmatic one, because it should not be easy (considering our instinctive programming) “not to express or repress” anger, frustration, violence, etc., when the objective is to physically subdue another person and not to be subdued…

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48

Right yes its weird, because looking from the outside I appear to be aggressive when I jump on someones back and try to choke them :joy:

But this actually highlights a very important distinction, that actualism is about feeling happy and harmless, and not about doing actions which are (through morality) considered happy and harmless such as being a pacifist for example.

I struggled with this a lot at the beginning but this is now clear as day because it is clear that the danger is ‘me’. It is only the instinct of aggression which makes me a potential danger when sparring with someone because it has the potential to override practical considerations.

Of course injuries etc will always happen but it is only through malice that I am driven to blindly hurt and destroy someone.

Nowadays the majority of the time my training is just good fun, its very engaging and not serious at all. It is not unlike playing chess with someone, except I am doing it with my body. I am simply trying to use tactics, strategy and technique to ‘catch you out’.

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49

Oh and the trick for this one is to simply notice that I have stopped having fun, in that regard its actually really simple :smiley:

It is impossible to at the same time be having great fun if I am experiencing frustration, anger etc.

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