Global warming/climate change

Well, Richard gave me something to believe in when everything else was gone.

I probably spent a week or 4 trolling, before realising that he was only saying something I wanted desperately to hear; enjoying life is the whole point.

So, exactly who has “daddy issues” is besides the point of it all anyway.

@Srinath

You may be interested to note that your essentially “no one can know anything for sure” position, is exactly the position the Kremlin has been ensuring is the status quo in our favourite ex Soviet nation.

Things can be known “for sure”, and when they can’t be, it’s utter disgusting arrogance to insist one is correct.

That isn’t a dig. God knows I have zero to prove against anyone here. It’s rather that things can be known which is the “war” being waged for millennia.

@Srinath Yes I can observe this aspect which you are pointing out, this (emotionally driven) need to know, to take a stand. It reminds me of what you wrote in your report of becoming free. Needing to believe in order to support ‘myself’. The side which is being put forward is only a reflection of ‘myself’ needing to be asserted. In short there is a personal agenda. And it happens so subtly, because in asserting ‘my’ worldview as correct ‘I’ gain some kind of certainty that ‘I’ so desperately need to alleviate that which is going on underneath.

I can see why in actual freedom it doesn’t matter, why it is no longer possible to argue, because this need to assert ‘myself’ in order to generate security is no longer required. And it is this freedom that ultimately matters.

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@Andrew I’ve never said ‘nothing can be known for sure’. I’m not advocating some caricatured position of postmodern nihilism

Hmm.

It really comes down to a voice saying “don’t do that”.

The thing is definitely happening globally. A voice saying “don’t do that”, but it’s no longer about a concrete thing, rather an abstract thing; don’t put more carbon in the atmosphere!" Because.

The simple facts of stopping rape, stopping war, dismantling the nuclear weapons and otherwise being “nicer” have been usurped by the climate alarmist.

What use is a world with less carbon in the atmosphere if the are still starving children, rape, abuse and war?

The carbon debate is a smoke screen and everyone already knew that.

It’s exactly like talking about the weather at a family reunion when the real issues of why your brothers are dead never gets discussed.

There is no evidence that carbon in the atmosphere will warm up the planet.

There is overwhelming evidence that there is little to no point in being conscious of the shit show we are otherwise living.

Andrew, I’d have thought that most ideologically driven and impassioned climate alarmists would be just the sort of people to be marching down the street protesting rape, war, nuclear weapons and all sorts of things as well. But with a self still extant, this is all futile. And impassioned global warming sceptics are in the same boat.

You seem intent on turning actualism into ideology. This ‘Team Richard’ mentality is insidious and a dead end as far as actual freedom is concerned. Whatever your views on climate change it’s important to see that.

I do think climate alarmism is a problem too BTW. But not in the same way you do.

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Agreed! You will observe there has been no moderation, censoring, or restricting of people’s freedom of choice, opinion, and expression, etc., with regard to discussing these controversial topics on the forum – and I would prefer to keep it that way.

Yet here comes the caveat…

Ahh so you want people to be able to expound upon their conclusions/evaluations/opinions, be they sensible or not/based on facts or not, without anybody challenging them?

You realize it can’t be both ways? If you want free discussion of ideas, you can’t just allow the stating of an idea and not the following critique of it. That would not be a free discussion of ideas. Plus that would then require judgement calls to be made upon which side should be censored – which judgement calls will inevitably lie according to the bias of the person making the judgement.

As an example only, I could just as well write that I want forum members to be able to discuss ideas freely - even controversial ones like global warming or the neutrality of actually free people - without being told that they have daddy issues or are a “Richardist” or are on “Team Richard” or are turning actualism into an ideology for coming to the same conclusions as Richard! :wink:

Further as feeling-beings have had, do have, and will continue to have varying (from superficial to strong) emotional and (the deeper) psychic-current reactions to various topics discussed, and particularly on controversial ones, plus it being impossible to 100% reliably tell the degree to which someone else is emotionally involved (only that person themselves can know and they can fool themselves just as they can fool others) – then any censoring based on an evaluation of whether someone appears to be aggressive or angry or defensive etc., will have similar issues.

Additionally, as feelings are not facts, even if somebody is feeling worked up or aggressive or defensive or malicious or sorrowful, etc., when they write something out – that feeling does not change the factual content whatsoever of that which they are saying. It took me a while to get this at first, but if you observe Richard’s correspondences, he never judges, shames, castigates, criticizes, or discards what people say strictly and solely because of the feelings they may be feeling when they say it or their intent in saying it. He always addresses what they are actually saying (even if he may additionally point out possible underlying motivations and guesses at intent etc.). That is where valid critique lies, not in the internal (and thus inaccessible-to-others) state of the person writing it.

As such I really don’t want to get into any of that type of moderation nor would I want the forum to take that direction. It seems better to let people discuss things as they will so that a genuine resolution, if one is possible, can be reached – with whatever necessary conflict along the way as is unavoidable with contentious issues. If there be any moderation I would restrict it solely to the blatant and obvious trolls, i.e. those that violate common courtesy/general decency rules and are apparently there just to stir up trouble rather than engage in a genuine discussion. This will also require judgement calls, of course, and I prefer Richard’s method of not moderating but rather engaging with each and every one – but that takes a lot of time and energy which may not always be available.

Thus as it stands I don’t see any issue per se – people can and do criticize Richard and Vineeto etc., and they can and do say they are biased or lack critical thinking, and then other people can ask them for evidence of this, and other people can certainly freely point out where after ~2 months of discussion still no evidence has been provided, and people can definitely surmise therefrom that there still be no case to consider said fully free people to have bias as far as anybody has been able to determine, and others are free to read all that and shrug and think that they are probably biased anyway (lol).

Well this is nothing new, it’s just a new take on an old idea. It used to be that “Actualism is a cult” or “Actualists are all clones of Richard”. Now it’s “actualists have daddy issues” lol :smiley: . Though I see you are resurrecting some old themes with the Team Richard and Richardist ideas.

They certainly don’t and actual freedom certainly does stand on its own – as do the facts.

But just because they don’t need protection doesn’t mean that it’s not worth engaging people who claim to have found flaws or faults with it. With that logic Richard should have just come out and reported his experience of becoming free, maybe a few thousand words on the topic, then left it up as a single web page on the internet, ignoring and not engaging with anybody who found a fault with it – because it didn’t need any protection!

That would be silly of course… and I’ll just refer you to the millions of words on the AFT site, a lot of which is indeed Richard, Vineeto, and Peter, engaging people in discussions about this very topic (possible flaws, faults, etc.)

How is challenging people on what they write, and critiquing, and pointing out not only that what they say isn’t valid but also the specific ways in which it’s not valid, equivalent to trying to control how people think about it?

If that were the case then you can say almost the entirety of Richard’s correspondence is his attempt to control what people think about actual freedom - by challenging people, not letting them get away with saying something is a fact when it isn’t, pointing out where they are completely and arrantly wrong, etc.

You’re saying a world full of actually free people will be one where everybody just says what they think, regardless of how well-considered it is, and everyone else just agrees with them without challenges or discussion? You realize that isn’t how (genuine) science works? People certainly will present ideas and others will challenge them, etc. That’s how ideas are developed and how the good ones win out – by surviving critical discussion. That is what critical thinking is! It’s in the phrase itself – thinking critically, as in, being critical of that which is being thought about!

I don’t see any issue with this. All the malice and sorrow that normally underlies and derails such discussions will be totally absent. It will all work much more smoothly and effectively. And will be much more fun for everyone involved!

Just to step back, what happens with these topics isn’t that they are being presented as a package deal per se. Rather, Richard or Vineeto or Peter etc., write something of what they think about a non-actualism topic. Then somebody challenges what they wrote. Then there’s further discussion on it. Just because what they write is successfully defended against contrarian arguments, doesn’t mean that it’s a “package deal”.

Basically anyone is completely free to ignore or not engage on these topics. Indeed, it doesn’t particularly matter with regards to becoming free – if it’s not an issue for someone then there’s no reason for them to take the time to look into it. But when it does become an issue for someone, and they do look into it, then it’s certainly worth having the discussion on it.

You may be asking why, or implicitly criticizing Richard, Vineeto, and Peter, for even publishing these things on the AFT site in the first place – to which I refer you to their rationale here: Discussion of Non-Actualist Topics .

Also you will observe these topics are in “The Watercooler” category and not the “Actualism” category – which seems like the right way to segragate the discussions (with some cross-posting about the meta aspects of the discussion like groupthink or peasant mentality in general, that may belong more in the “Actualism” category).

Ahh so only the conclusions of actually free people are valid? Okay. But this already presents a problem:

i.e. you are actually free, and you disagree with Richard and Vineeto, who are also actually free. All three of you can’t be right at the same time – one, or both, or all three of you, must be mistaken. Therefore just being actually free does not automatically make your conclusions valid.

A second problem presents itself – since we’re not free and therefore we can’t make up our own minds about it, what are we supposed to think until we are free? Shrug and say we don’t know? But then we’re just agreeing with you. Why not just agree with Richard or Vineeto instead, if we can’t make up our minds anyway? It amounts to saying that our passion-enfeebled minds prevent us from thinking for ourselves and we should all listen to Big Daddy Srinath instead of Big Daddy Richard.

But why believe you over some other actually free person? Well that’s the point – we are not to believe any of you! The only sensible thing is for each of us to evaluate the facts for ourselves, as best as we can – and indeed, with the explicit purpose of nothing other than becoming actually free ourselves!

To attempt to censor or constrain this free-thinking process by only allowing certain types of discussion on the only active actualism forum – seems to me to be nothing other than misguided!

———

As a final thought I will point out that literally the only basis for your Richardist, Pop, daddy issue, Team Richard, etc insinuations is for people agreeing with or coming to the same conclusion as what Richard wrote on this topic of global warming. If what Richard wrote is factual then it’s obviously ridiculous to disparage them for seeing the facts — Richard said the Earth is spherical (not flat), it doesn’t make us Richardists for agreeing with him. So the only way what you wrote holds water is if Richard wrote something not factual, either something wrong or an opinion. And the only rationale you gave for Richard being wrong about global warming being an unscientific groupthink fallacy — is that you will just go with the very people that would be perpetuating that groupthink fallacy since they do it for a living! Lol.

In short you didn’t give any good reason and thus your disparagements don’t have any valid basis.

It is of course entirely possible Richard is wrong and you are right — but you would have to show where he is wrong to make the case. And as you said you wouldn’t due to lack of time … it means your conclusions on the topic will remain without basis.

And to what end, I might say? As you said you yourself really don’t know any won’t take the time to find out for yourself - why assume Richard is wrong? Isn’t it an equivalent mistake to assuming he is right?

Cheers,
Claudiu

Claudiu, rather than expending energy mounting an impressive defence of your position, do you think there is something in this entire exchange - a seed, a realisation of whatever kind that may be the means to ending ‘you’ forever? Yes, you could write straight back to me with another formidable and sophisticated post in reply to this. You are more than capable. But that would be a wasted opportunity so it would be good if you could reflect on it a bit.

I’m keen to see more people here become actually free. And you most definitely too. This is one of the main reasons I still post here. And this is primarily why I said something on this global warming thread when I could have just minded my own business. It’s not to take a stand on global warming, to diss Richard, to insult you or even to create a ‘happy and safe’ space for all actualists. I do want you and others who may be close to self-immolation to stop mistaking the wood for the trees.

This could be the beginning of the end of ‘you’.

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Yes, although not for the reasons you state here!

The seed comes in the shocking realization of how deep and perfidious this groupthink scheme is, how harmful it is to the citizens — it ended my belief that “all is well in the (Western) world”, it ended my belief that “everything will work out” in general (conveniently ignoring all the past wars and rapes and murders etc where it certainly didn’t “work out” for those victims!)

Plus trying my hardest to disprove even a small part of the argument / to prove the warmists right on that point 11 (the “cold can’t heat hot” aspect) and completely failing , and the way I went about it, totally shot a hole in the entire way I approach thinking and reasoning about these things in and of itself! It showed me that ‘I’ really have nothing to contribute, nothing to add, nothing of value, on top of what this actual body can already do anyway.

So indeed high time for me to allow myself to go out from control and ‘my’ inevitable demise to come sooner rather than later!!

So it’s been very fruitful indeed the deep dive I did into this topic — and makes a good case that it’s worth having the discussions here! Hence my ”defence” of my ”position” (which I’m pleased was “impressive” :smile:).

Hope you will have a chat soon with actual Claudiu haha.

Cheers,
Claudiu

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Full disclosure: I’ve had a connection with pure intent for about 2 consecutive weeks now. I think just maintaining that connection is what it’s all about. Everything becomes clear. It’s so wonderful. Anyways my question is. Are you going to use this ‘Aha moment’ described in quotes to re-establish or maintain a connection to pure intent? If you do, all the best. And send me a line, I’m having the best of times. We could talk about how terrifying I am about losing this connection and being normal again. How my whole practice, I’ve cycled from being near the actual world to being far away from it. And how I perceive this one to be different. So many things.

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Claudiu, that’s great and may it be so. The right answer is an existential one rather than anything else - that will ultimately spell the end of ‘you’. Just do it!

@claudiu

Finally found a guy doing an experiment that made sense.

He mentioned the “scale” of the atmosphere. Which was why my mind went straight to looking for geological models for the starting point.

Also he mentions that if an increase in CO2 were responsible for increased temperature, then the effect would be immediately observable.

There would be no decades long delay in temperature rise. The IR would immediately have heated the planet. Zero delay.

There is no measurements (which haven’t been otherwise manipulated and lied about) showing any increase in global temperature beyond seasonal and cyclic variation.

That really does seal it for me.

To sum up, any increase in CO2 would according to the “greenhouse effect” have an immediate effect.

Nice vid and channel – and there at 8:53 comes the Point 11 that I had so much trouble with:

i.e. if downward infrared backradiation did indeed work like it does in the atmospheric greenhouse effect, then this is how stoves would work. There would be a hot surface, and then a small vacuum gap (to prevent conduction & convection), and an IR-transparent pot would sit on top of this. Then the heater surface would be heated to a temperature far less than 100°C. The water would absorb the heat, this would warm the water up, and then radiate infrared both upwards and downwards. The downward infrared radiation would then heat the surface of the heater past what it was (without adding any additional power) until it eventually got to 100°C and boiled the water!

This would be incredibly useful and it surely would have been discovered and invented by now, it would be how stoves work.

Yet in the real world, we have to heat the stove past 100°C in order to boil the water! :grin:

Cheers,
Claudiu

Yes! That’s what finally put it to rest.

If steam can’t heat the surface of the water it came from, and it’s actually hot, then it’s plainly obvious a cold atmosphere isn’t going to heat the surface of the earth.

It was his comment that radiation is instantaneous that really got me.

Any increase in CO2 (or water vapour etc) would instantaneously heat the globe if “back radiation” is really what turns a frozen planet into a livable one.

I haven’t tried it yet, but it should be possible to show this from the climate “science” published numbers.

That is; “radiative forcing” is ascribed to certain gases. In proportion to the 33C they are attributed to providing.

Why there should be any controversy is beyond me, as it would be primary school mathematics to work that out.

So is the consensus here that CO2 doesn’t trap heat? I’m interested in pursuing this topic for my own edification. But I need to dumb it down first. Otherwise, it’ll be too much unfamiliar knowledge too fast.

Not in the way that the “greenhouse effect” is said to do it at a scale which warms the planet 33C above it’s (Stefan Boltzmann derived) -18C starting point to the observed 15C average surface temperature.

It’s not that there is no trapping/ radiation etc going on, just the amount that is associated with “radiative forcing” which is the backbone of the CO2 AGW (anthropomorphic global warming) doctrine.

It didn’t sound like you were saying that. I got that you thought the original -18C temp without CO2 number was basically just a guess. And that there is no greenhouse effect at all. Are you able to concisely explain to a non-scientist who hasn’t done his research why you think CO2 traps heat but isn’t responsible for the melting glaciers? It’d really help me frame my research.

The original -18C proposed by the use of a modified Stefan-Blotzmann equation has indeed been my main interest. I can’t conclusively prove it is wrong without building a computer model.

So what Claudiu has been investigating, which climate AGW proponents call “radiative forcing” is more fruitful for an amateur.

It’s indisputable that everything that can absorb heat can radiate heat. That includes all matter, which includes all gasses.

The question is can a very thin layer of gasses raise the temperature of the planet from -18C to 15C?

Well, like our experience of insulation in everyday life, air can insulate us. Our own bodies attempt to do this with goosebumps. The body causes hairs to stand on end to trap air next to the skin. It’s very ineffective because most people are not hairy enough.

As far as the planet goes, the air (held to the planet with gravity and the magnetic field) traps heat. However, it can’t trap heat which wasn’t already there.

The mechanism of “greenhouse effect” is proposing that it not only traps heat, which is obvious, but also raises the temperature of the surface beyond it’s starting point.

This is impossible.

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So there are at least 3 lines of inquiry;

  1. Dig into the theoretical science and numbers, the Stefan-Blotzmann equation, thermodynamics, gas absorption spectrums, etc.

  2. Dig into the history of the “greenhouse” theory.

  3. Search for experimental examples.

My personal hypothesis is that the average temperature of the planet without an atmosphere or water, (and obviously without life)
is close to the observed average temperature of 15C. Perhaps higher, perhaps lower, but not radically far away from the observed average.