Yeah it would be a bummer if the end of the road is actual oblivion as in death haha
But this is clearly not the case as seen in a PCE
I do remember 2 incidents which showed me to an extent what oblivion at physical death is like.
1 was being put to sleep when I was younger and broke my arm.
The better example is when @Sonyaxx choked me unconscious
I thought (being a macho bjj guy and all) that I could give her a fully locked in rear naked choke and defend without using my arms lol.
The next thing I know is I am lying on the couch and everyone is staring at me Those moments between her choking me and me waking up simply didn’t exist experientially, there was nothing. No sense of existence or passing of time. Of course the actual world was still existing and so was this body but there was a complete cessstion of any kind of experiencing for me as a body consciousness.
The only addition that will happen at physical death is that this body will eventually decompose etc.
It could perhaps be helpful to think about the small everyday oblivions like e.g. a nap, getting drunk, having sex, zoning out in front of the netflix or one’s phones. Besides the PCE, the everyday oblivion that was closest to self-immolation for me was the experience of ‘me’ disappearing in a hypnagogic state during an afternoon nap. Vineeto writes about this too - although not sure where now. No doubt one of you will find it!
It was particularly vivid when I was fairly depressed years ago. I really longed for sleep more than anything else at that time and remember how absolutely sweet it was. I also remember that absolutely exquisite and sublime experience of ‘me’ disappearing during an afternoon nap, and enjoying those seconds or sometimes minutes of glorious selflessness before I nodded off to sleep. When I woke up ‘Whoosh!’ I returned with a vengeance.
They were one of my only respites when I was super anxious many years ago. Also had it when waking up, it’s like a few seconds would go by before ‘I’ would remember who ‘I was then it’s like “fuck … my life sucks” lol.
Ahhh this is really cool to put into the picture because I have always really enjoyed those just before/just after sleep states.
I have always found lots of interesting explorations during those states but there is also something intrinsically enjoyable about finding myself in a state where ‘I’ am slipping away or only just loading up.
But I never looked at in from the angle that those are like little tastes of oblivion.
There is really something here because @Sonyaxx will attest to how much I like to nap and it is exactly that which I find so enjoyable about the whole experience.
I also like the example of scrolling through social media, I never thought about it this way. But indeed it is an opportunity for ‘me’ to somehow have a slight release from being ‘me’. Now I can think of many similar experiences which essentially allow an escape from the burden of being. The problem with those of course is that they are a return ticket as opposed to the one way ticket which self immolation offers.
But the experience of slipping into oblivion is the same?
It is like I am being sold on this deal bit by bit
OMG my brain is going right now. I can see this is what I have been chasing my whole life.
That feeling of ahhhh and reality melting away as I sit down for my cigarette in the garden.
That feeling of ‘zen’ after I have finished a long, hard sparring session.
The feeling of the weekend approaching and ‘leaving all my worries behind’ as I am on my way to do something fun.
Partying on mind altering substances to find myself in some ‘other world’ that doesn’t have all those worries that reality did.
And so many more its actually astounding to contemplate.
It seems like my entire life I have been chasing oblivion. I have been chasing a release from the burden of being, and of course all these other endeavours were only partially successful in providing this, this is why they ultimately never satisfied.
VINEETO: I just woke up from one of those wonderful light after-dinner naps and the memory is still so remarkably fresh that I thought of describing this little PCE to you. It was fascinating and delightful to have thoughts and half-thoughts while drifting in and out of sleep like in and out of water and at the same time the brain was aware of itself being half asleep and doing its fluid thinking. What an extraordinary thing our human brain is, I thought while dreaming along, that it can unwind its thoughts from the day, be aware of it at the same time and this all while I am on the couch taking a nap, and listening to Peter clicking away on the keyboard! Such a nap beats any sort of meditation by a country mile!
RESPONDENT:I agree, there is nothing like a good nap.
VINEETO: I did not talk about just having a good nap. I was trying to describe to you a pure consciousness experience that happened while I was in that hypnogogic state where one is asleep and aware of being asleep at the same time. From this utter relaxation it is very easy to watch the brain thinking – or, as Richard put it:
Richard: This brain, which is what I am (‘what’ not ‘who’) has this amazing ability to not only be able to be consciousness being aware but to simultaneously be consciousness being aware of being consciousness (without an ‘I’ being aware of ‘me’ being conscious).
This actual world is truly wondrous … no need for any imaginative/intuitive metaphysical mystique whatsoever.
It’s interesting that she referred to that state as a PCE.
I don’t think it matches the definition I have assumed. What is watching the thoughts and what is drifting? Is this really a description I should be looking for in my experience?
I can do something like that in calm abiding meditation. So perhaps I have always been nearly there, but didn’t realise that was a way to get there.
Yeah it is a weird one, I have had lots of very interesting experiences when in those in-between sleep states but I was always hesitant to call it a PCE.
Although the experiences very much match what Vineeto wrote in that quote. There is always a sense that the brain is doing the thinking by itself and it is very smooth, this is why various explorations seem to be so successful when in that state.
Very often when this smooth thinking is happening there are these bursts of experiencing perfection and magic which has that unmistakable flavour of actuality, often this is accompanied by various memories.
The weirdest thing that happens in these states though which often gives @Sonyaxx a bit of a surprise when she’s sat next to me - These meandering thoughts are going on, simply holding something up and looking, effortlessly and without any resistance, then all of a sudden something undeniably actual and obvious is seen for what it is - a fact which I have somehow been blind to. The directness of the seeing physically makes my body jolt (usually it’s a flailing leg but other parts get involved too ) There is also that experience of a surge of energy/bolt of lightning happening in the brain when this happens, I can see why we use this emoji for these moments now lol - .
I think you’re confusing Vineeto’s description of having a PCE while being in a hypnagogic state with a hypnagogic state being a PCE (which it isn’t, at least in my experience). The quote is a bit out of context even on the webpage.
Having that short respite of not quite having “booted up” in the morning (or after having a nap) is great, but it’s a morsel compared to the full meal of an EE or a PCE, no?
I remembered the part about her being “in that hypnogogic state where one is asleep and aware of being asleep at the same time” because it’s a relatively commonly experienced state, but I didn’t remember her having had PCEs in that state.
Coincidentally, it is a timely quote, @henryyyyyyyyyy, because for about two years now I’ve had several PCEs in that state (maybe it’s due to something biological related to aging ). They seemed strange indees, but I did not give them much thought…
They have points in common with the “awake” PCEs: there is the mind’s awareness of itself, there is the wonder (but kind of “senseless” because the senses are working differently…), the purity, the absence of certain emotions (the dream becomes REALLY quiet/peaceful), the absence of self (although I would say that the change is less noticeable than in wakefulness, I guess because it is already weakened in sleep…).
But the common factor between them has been that while in those PCEs I have the following certaintiy -and even appeared in a form of thought/voice-:
“THIS is actual freedom…!”
“It’s so easy…”
“It’s just a matter of keeping it up when I wake up… of choosing it…”
Keep in mind @Srinath 's advice above is just about connecting with the relatively ‘normal’ oblivions, the hypno/hypnagogic states are one of which - so yeah it’s on a spectrum (which can go all the way up to PCE), but anywhere on the spectrum at least gives a taste of what that oblivion looks like, and something to aim for
@emp Actually I had an experience in which time stopped about six years ago while in a hypnagogic state. I still have a golden thread to it. It was comparable to a pce the way I remember it.
Henry and Emp you are both right in a way. I was talking about the kind of hypnagogic state where at the very least that dropping off or minimisation of ‘you’ is palpable. But yes, even without this ‘hypnagogic pce or ee’ the simple relief of knowing sleep is approaching when one is about to nod off and leave all one’s cares behind is an example of a longing for oblivion.
The first day after my accident I had a panic attack and I was convinced I had brain damage and a bleed on the brain, was convinced the CT was wrong and not good enough quality, I needed an MRI.
What I realised was that I really loved life and was afraid to die. In that moment, I envied religious people who had that genuine belief and comfort of an after life. There was nothing to comfort me, just absolute terror that I was going to die, no different to a bug you just stepped on. No way to absolutely know when or if it would happen. I always thought there would be some sense of knowing it was my time…like spider sense or something lol. So silly.
My love of being alive made me so afraid of death that I suffered a panic attack and then eventually full blown anxiety…then eventually depression…so I stopped liking and enjoying life. I loved life so much I got depressed about it lol.
Eventually in depression and anxiety I realised death is the end of suffering so it started to sound like a lovely relief to just die, which weirdly magnified the depression. Like life was just suffering to me.
It is weird to reflect on it. I missed an opportunity to face that terror on the abyss, pretty big coward here lol.
I couldn’t channel it to be thrilling.
I am just relieved to be over the worse of that.
It’s a strange thing for me to be on this path (AF) and yet at the same time I have an extreme antinatalist view of things. I think life sucks. Children with cancer, mental illness, car crashes, animals in a 24/7 gladiator war for survival, etc. But I try to leverage this toward oblivion because I really do want that. I’ve never been suicidal but suicidal ideation has been a frequent companion. Perfection often seems laughable.
And with only a handful of people even claiming such a thing I can’t imagine procreating. It’s such a gamble with someone else’s life. I guess my resentment is on steroids, lol. I can see at times that I don’t want to give up this view and the anger and disgust that comes along with it. It’s a wonder I stick with actualism at all to any degree.
I had struggled with these kinda thoughts for a long time n perhaps ocassionally they can surface again…Here are a few things I’ve found:
It may seem that non human animals have to be ceaselessly in the prey or predator mode…Life can be quite brutal for the starving predator and also brutal for the prey who lives in ever present threat of becoming a predators lunch…making it all look extremely unfair…Comparatively speaking, humans can atleast plan out more safety n well being for each other…but then it occurred to me that non-human animals do not really know death in the way humans do…neither do they have human worries such as planning tomorrows meals, pay taxes n bills on time, defend this identity or that n play conflicting superficial social roles…and also wonder why they’re on earth n suffer existential angst…In these regards they’re actually better off than humans living with the Human Condition…on the other hand, the universe has created intelligence in humans to overcome the human condition - as demonstrated by the few actually free peoples…so its kinda a plus minus deal with either being a human or a non human animal.
Atleast the universe has created a mechanism for humans to become free of the mess…the question therefore is - what is preventing me from making full use of this potential that the universe has also created?
no matter how good or bad or cruel or benevolent things get, the universe is an ultimate mystery…and it’s amazing that it even exists and that too in a particular way rather than some other way…and on top of that, as a flesh n blood body creature created from it’s material, it is able to experience all this…
life as an event happening on earth in comparison with the sheer size and amount of activity in the universe is kinda incomparable…although an amazing event, life on earth is too small an event compared to the sheer amount of stuff that is happening each moment in the universe
This may be a good place to ask a question about the last line of this paragraph from page 117. (Article 16, "Complete security lies inside eternal time).
Richard -
"In actuality, the concept of living forever, as a psychic entity, is the original cause of abject malice and sorrow … not extinction "
In the context of the chapter, I think it means that we expect to live forever, thus being locked out of eternal time, forever.
.
). They seemed strange indees, but I did not give them much thought…